>Doom has insane chemistry with Stark, Strange and Namor
>instead of being the rival of Stark or Strange, or even the Panther, he's instead the rival of the most boring superheroes on the planet, the Fagtastic Four
The swap ala Kingpin should've happened ages ago. Doom V. Reed simply doesn't work. They have never, in their entire history, had an interaction with a modicum of pathos. It's just Doom attacking the Four Fags, Reed figuring out his plan, being cold but also trying to appeal to his "better nature", Doom screeching autistically, and it ends after Reed invents a doohikey to blow him up with no emotion. But then you read stories where Doom fights Stark and Strange and there is genuine chemistry between them, whether they're frenemies of full blown rivals. Same with Namor. These guys have tussled more times than they've teamed up and they're still full-time allies.
>inb4 Reed is just the one guy to get under Doom's skin
I'd get it if it wasn't so boring. Reed is boring. That's his thing. He's an analytical explorer. I get it. The FF are boring. They're not for me. Fine. But when you have this ultra bombastic character getting triggered by the human equivalent of stale bread, then there's no reason for me to be invested in it. At some point Doom would've just shot Reed and the FF with a magical sniper rifle and that'd had been it.
Beyond that the genre clash just makes no sense for them to be rivals. Luthor and Superman work, they're both Sci-Fi characters. Joker and Batman are both noir horror. Doom is a literal wizard in a castle fighting a guy in a jumpsuit. Stark has the core of the armoured egotistical flashy supergenius who cannot into magic, and Strange is the reverse of that. Pitting Doom against them works, especially as Stark Post-Extremis should be infinitely smarter, the rivalry being normal intelligence vs enhanced humanity. And Strange is the SS, that's a far bigger position for Doom to covet. Even Panther works better as a main rival.
Yeah. Reed and Doom do have a “rivalry” but 100% of the work and the writing for that is just Doom seething at him, Reed contributes nothing. You could literally transfer it to Doom and any other character and it’d work just as good if not better.
>Yeah. Reed and Doom do have a “rivalry” but 100% of the work and the writing for that is just Doom seething at him, Reed contributes nothing.
Reed is Doom's "Doctor Venture". Doom just wants to break into the Baxter and fuck Reed's robots.
It makes Doom come off as entirely pathetic and Reed gains genuinely nothing from it.
Whatever angle you play there's both a thematic tie and similar genre flair. Both Stark and Strange are arrogant and flashy. Both have lofty positions in universe. It'd make sense for Doom to contest with them as it's a clash of similar personalities and both could be thorns in Doom's active plans. Stark is a political power player and Strange is that but on a cosmic scale. They realistically would be thorns on his side. Meanwhile Reed is just an adventurer with unlimited resources that Doom attacks because of a grievance from his young adulthood. It's not just not deep, there's nothing interesting to it.
Doom is an explorer, it's just not the core of his identity. He's constantly searching for new forms of power and rules an entire country. It'd be weird for him not to have a space program. Meanwhile Reed is just an explorer and there's no viable connection between him and Doom bar Doom's autism. With everyone else you can tell multiple stories and there are reasons and ways for Doom and each character to be involved. With Reed it's literally the supervillain equivalent of a petty schoolyard slight.
I get all that, and I don't disagree, but there's only so much that dichotomy can carry you. The FF go in episodic adventures ala Doctor Who/Star Trek. That's their strength. It's why they've had trouble maintaining a "rogues gallery" as the team's function doesn't lend itself to that. For a "single" story 60s America Vs. Old World is fine. For an ever expanding sliding timescale where Latveria is a technomagical utopia that is lost, and all you are left with is a relationship that doesn't exist. Stark Vs. Doom works because it's the same core concept (post-transhumanism technocracy vs science-backed monarchy) but allowed to evolve with the times.
(you)
That works for a comedic series, not 60 years of comics.
>It makes Doom come off as entirely pathetic
He is pathetic, though. It's part of the appeal.
>Stark, Strange
There is also more of thematic fit. Stark is science, Strange is magic. Doom being both science and magic fits with both. With Stark you can lean into Doom being a fellow scientist or contrast Stark's science with Doom's magic, with Strange you can lean into doom being a fellow magic-user or contrast Strange's magic with science.
It's self evident when boiled down to its fundamental level
Stark is inventor
Strange is magician
T'challa is monarch
Namor is conqueror
Richards is explorer
Doom is all of those things except the last one and his conquests rarely leave earth. Reed goes beyond the horizon while Doom is the dark wizard sitting in his tower. If that tower isn't beyond the horizon then they have no natural reason to see each other.
OP doesn't get Doom (or the Fantastic Four) at all, and it's a huge relief that he'll never work for Marvel.
Doom's defined by his inability to let go of the past, be it personal trauma, a tiny superficial scar, petty grudges, historical time travel, means of governance, or straight up dressing in a suit of medieval armour. Reed and the FF, although corny and dated the further away from the 1960s we, are all about moving into a better, brighter future, and not letting past misfortunes define them (Ben has it way harder than Doom).
Doom is the war ravaged Old World, smashed to bits by bombs and unable to let go of grievances, and the FF are Kenedy's America, optimistic and heading into space.
>>Doom has insane chemistry with Stark,
Name one good Doom/Iron Man story. Seriously, name one. The King Arthur stuff in Doomquest is the most interesting by a country mile in a mid as fuck 80s story where Iron Man and Doom could have easily been replaced by any other hero and villain. Don't you dare invoke Bendis.
>Strange
>but muh Triumph and Torment
Doom story, not a Strange story. Strange is just sort of... there. It's great though
>Namor
They're allies/friend who bicker because they're both uppity little bitches with severe neurological problems, not arch foes. That's like including Batman in a list of Superman villains.
I get why so many modern Doom fans dislike his rivalry with Reed, as the very nature of Doom having always been grounded in the past makes how cool he is timeless, while the FF represented the future... 60 years ago, and haven't moved on a whole bunch since Kirby left the book, because the original run was so great that nobody wants to diverge too much from it, making them seem like a weird appendix to to this awesome arch villain if you don't love the original run. I'd advise anyone who thinks they're naff to read the first 20 issues and two annuals of FF, and see if you can at least learn to appreciate them.
>Doom is the war ravaged Old World, smashed to bits by bombs and unable to let go of grievances, and the FF are Kenedy's America, optimistic and heading into space.
Boy this is so fucked up in hindsight
The funny thing is, the roles have kind of reversed now. The FF are hearkening back to an optimistic time that few people alive today even remember. Meanwhile having a semi-benevolent autocrat like Doom in power seems like a best-case scenario for the future of society. He actually gives a shit about his people, even if it's ultimately an extension of his own self-regard.
What I'm saying is, there's no way Latveria doesn't have universal healthcare, and probably some kind of job guarantee (no guarantee you'll *like* the job, but them's the breaks).
>and probably some kind of job guarantee
i wonder what kinds of jobs are available in latveria since doom's robotics are so advanced they could reasonably do 90% of the work
I might be forgetting some more modern depictions, but isn't the average Latverian basically a peasant farmer living like it's still the rural 1800s
I have an idea that Latverians more or less LARP as peasants because that's how Doom likes it. In the streets they're all wearing lederhosen and dirndls living like it's 1792, but at home they live a normal European lifestyle. They all play along partly because Doom gives them all a high standard of living, but also they're scared shitless of offending him and getting killed or ending the gravy train for them.
NTA but it doesn't make any sense. It's just Ameriburgers being ignorant of everything and resorting to insulting stereotypes, but somehow still caring enough to glorify gyppo fucking shits.
But isn't Doom part gypsy as well? He wants to recreate some rustic mountain idyll that never really existed, but Doom has the power and authority to actually make it happen.
>But isn't Doom part gypsy as well?
Exactly. Ameriburgers have every single European cunt drawn like a picture book caricature, but there are no European characters, just resident Nazis for the Germans, laughing stock strawmen for the French, and gypsies for the rest. Gypsies, the worst scum of the planet glorified by retarded Amerigolems. So don't try to spin this as having an in-universe explanation, Amerimutts just can't be bothered to google European cunts because they're busy jerking off to naggers and sucking gypsy dick.
Sorry your mom (and Doom) made you dress like this.
>hating on the fantastic four
homosexual
THIS
/thread
Shut the fuck up you retarded secondary.
It's just a natural product of the FF stagnating for decades while Doom was allowed to expand a bit on his own.
It's hard to make the Doom/Richards rivalry work when the FF's whole place in the Marvel universe seems ill-defined.
I always felt like Tony post-Civil War, if not before, made Reed kind of redundant in general. So many stories since revolve around how Tony is like the smartest man in the world who feels like he should be on top of every problem, all while ignoring or downplaying the fact that Reed exists.
Reed is supposed to be the man of the future but Tony is Marvel's foremost futurist. The two overlap too much, but Iron Man eventually won out in relevance and popularity.
That's to be expected. Reed is part of the team, and compared to him the rest are all just normalfags. Meanwhile Tony is one guy, he carries the narrative himself. Add the fact that Tony is ever evolving as the rule of cool changes, and the sleek technocrat in state of the art armour represents the ever changing future much better than the generic super scientist in an onesie. I don't dislike Reed, but his whole point is to be the smartest guy who solves everything 99% of the time, but sometimes the "powelh of fliendship"helps him get to the finish line. The FF are utterly redundant and what they represent has been distilled in Iron Man much better. The problem with Doom acting as their nemesis is that there can be no meaningful rivalry between them. Doom is a political animal while the FF are not. Doom actively tries to enforce his will on the setting, while the FF are in the background going on adventures. Stark literally does what Doom does but from a more altruistic POV. Them being paired makes much more sense.
The FF are let down by the "world outside your window" mentality. They can never do anything meaningful bar just explore random bs. All capes have a status quo, but the FF one is so static due to the unchanging nature of the team, that there's no point to them being a flagship book.
And yes, they are just too blasé to appeal to the modern person. Generic powers, generic personalities, generic mission, static team. Truth is, Doom is cool, and that's all that matters.
Tony's problem is that he's ever-evolving while his enemies are one-note gimmicks, political stand-ins are a no-go, and he's too restrained from the status quo to truly have an impact. But he can still have fun adventures, so there's that. It's just that they should write him as MGS x Zone Of The Enders, not a classic cape.
And since they became general MU villains due to the entirety of the MU basically debuting in the FF pages, what's left?
I mean, it’s Tony’s own fault for killing all of his villains that could have provided a good foil to himself. What happened to the biotech-powered Ezekiel Stane? Or Mandarin? Or Crimson Dynamo/Titanium Man?
>Mandarin
Too problematic for today's political climate. Which is a shame because he was his most interesting villain.
The only interesting thing about the FF are their villains.
And Ben.
>OH WOE IS ME I'M STUCK AS THE THING OH BOOH-HOO
>MUH SWEEEEEET AUNT PETUNIA AND YANCY STREET GANG
>repeat 24/7
Truly, a character for the ages.... The Thing is if they took the Hulk and somehow made him even more boring.
The Hulk is way less interesting than Ben. Cope.
>muh catchphrase
>muh ugly form hiding the rough plucky Kirby self-insert israelite
Ah yes, the same exact phrases and one single arc repeated over 6 decades, truly the stuff of legends...
Doom more like DooDoo
I find Doom and The Thing better rivals. Brains vs Muscle.
Somehow you found a way to make it even more idiotic. Grimm's not even a pebble under Doom's boot, what "brains vs brawn"?