>every time this episode is mentioned I discover a new person who dropped the show because of it
Were there that many Finn/FP shippers or was it just so badly written it assassinated Finn's character?
>every time this episode is mentioned I discover a new person who dropped the show because of it
I was 14 when it came out and I remember it being the first time I was legitimately pissed at a cartoon
also yes, I was an avid Finn x FP shipper
It made me drop the series because back in the day I assumed that it meant moronic drama would be the modus operandi going forward. Seems like I was more or less correct.
You were not correct. Watch the show. The memes here are just lies.
>more than one episode about Finn being sad for not being in a relationship
>The bee getting friendzoned episode
>too many episodes about the old lady elephant and the pig
>MarcyxPB taking more focus as opposed to who they are as individuals
>Finn looking for a new girlfriend on/off
>Flame Princess and Cinnamon Bun
>Huntress Wizard getting shafted
Yeah, im sure its Cinemaphile lying and not this show having too many cooks in the kitchen using this show as therapy for their past relationships.
>not this show having too many cooks in the kitchen using this show as therapy for their past relationships.
I've heard this theory regarding a lot of the shipping and break-ups in a lot of cartoons from the past decade or so, and all I'm wondering is "how?"
Like with this situation, what's the metaphor here? Was someone in the writing team involved in a situation where one partner was pressuring the other into poly throuple shits?
Jesus Christ, there are tons of psychologically fricked up "therapy characters" in tons of other things who don't go that far. The metaphor this supposedly stands-in for makes the Evangelion hospital scene look tame.
You are not fooling anyone /u/shitter. No matter how much you damage control.
Frick /u/, the show literally ends with Finn being sidelined in love and as a hero. He's practically dead inside when Golb invades.
You were totally right. I'm glad you saw the signes ahead of time.
I dropped it when the fire thot popped up, I saw an episode where finn is covered in foil like 3 times and kept losing interest every time
Both
Show's writing went to shit after this episode came out, and cemented the staff wouldn't commit to anything.
>Zoomers are moronic
What a revelation
>hating frost and fire is a zoomer opinion
have a nice day, contrarian homosexual
>forced zoomer meme
moronic amerifat
This marked the point of no return for adventure time
Finn got character assassinated, continually made miserable for the sake if cheap drama, got sidelined along with jake for side characters no one gives a frick about, to the point where the fanfic writers paired bubblegum and marceline together and made them the ones who kill the big bad at the end iirc
Frick this show
Say "thanks Rebecca!"
Thanks, Sucarose!
Rebecca wasn't a writer on the show by that point, Not only that but she made FP specifically to be Finn's gf.
it’s hard to convince morons who think that, just because she made SU, that all of her previous work is bad
Tell me again, why did she wait for the very last second of SU to confirm Steven and Connie?
I think she wanted to sabotage AT from within after she got her own show.
The moonlighting situation is very known for her to not realize know what she was doing
MEDS
Because Steven Universe is poorly written. Also that has nothing to do with Adventure Time. Sugar literally gave him a girlfriend and probably would have done it sooner if Marcy was 1000 years older than him.
Why didn't she give Steven a girlfriend?
>probably would have done it sooner if Marcy was 1000 years older than him.
Easy to fix, she wanted the main love interests to dyke out instead
Because it's a universal mandate on kids television that you can't have romantic relationships set in stone.
Then why did she make FP and Finn official right away?
It was a rebound romance. Everyone expected it not to stick.
I did.
You expect the shows you watch to be written well. That's everyone's mistake here.
Yeah, AT foundation was silly adventures of a human boy and his step brother dog, writting serious relationships and problems on top of that created a convoluted storyline that contradicted everything.
Serious shows like Samurai Jack would've actually worked with those themes.
>Serious shows like Samurai Jack would've actually worked with those themes.
Too bad Gendy lost almost all his talent after Sym-Bionic Titan.
I’ve never seen a show just fricking faceplant so hard right at the ending.
It's not a crime to switch gears to interpersonal drama after you've run out of energy writing one-off comedies. But the AT writers seemed to have no respect for the idea and just used romance for padding and giving false hope to people who actually like that kind or shit in their anime.
Is there ever going to be a show that does Star Vs-level relationship drama without fricking it up?
Arcane
Kim Possible and The Owl House proves this wrong
I have no idea how those slipped through the cracks. And Owl House wasn't for long, since they got shut down explicitly for promoting homosexuality.
They didn't. Most children's show writers dont write non-secondary relationships. Even the creator of Toh stated she didn't like romance which is why Luz and Amity get together after a few episodes and dont really do much romantic together during the show.
Kim Possible was originally supposed to end with the movie and kiss being the very last scene of the series. They only brought it back for one more season two years after the movie came out because it was so popular.
>why did she wait for the very last second of SU to confirm Steven and Connie?
Because they were 13/12 at the beginning?
Yeah, like Finn and FP?
They were 14
World of difference huh
To people who care about that stuff, yeah.
They were both 13 as early as S2, and she still waited until the end of Future to confirm them, interesting
Because like everything in SU, it was because they wanted to drag the simplest shit out over 100 episodes
Likely because it was pretty obvious he and Connie were end game. Who ever thought Steven or Connie weren't gonna end up together?
There's a trope related to Ron from Harry Potter which basically is about making the love interest turn into the most garbage human though I don't know if it refers to main characters too.
I always thought the creator did that because he didn't like Yamcha with Bulma because she was more of an important/main character and if she was gonna be with someone it had to be a stronger character or something.
>Likely because it was pretty obvious he and Connie were end game
So were Finn and PB
WITH MY LAST BREATH I CURSE REBECCA
Sugar didn't write the episode, and in fact was probably the one that made FP & Finn a fairly wholesome couple to begin with. The writer that had a fetish for taking a dump on Finn's love life is Muto.
Nope, Finn's character was perfectly fine and the same as always. You're just not a person.
>continually made him miserable
It didn't last that long dude. Go back and binge it. It clearly wasn't made to be viewed at only 11 minutes every two weeks.
>paired marceline and pb together
What's wrong with them being friends? They were clearly friends in the past. You think they should never be able to get over their differences?
>defeated the big bad
Nah it wasn't them who did it.
>Frick this show
Stop memeing, stop being a hivemind, etc.
Marceline grabs BMO and makes everyone sing
>What's wrong with them being friends?
I don't think anon's problem is with them being friends. You might wanna look a little deeper. Watch What Was Missing and Obsidian. Maybe study up on Sappho and see if that gives you any hints.
You know saying Adventure time was amazing is just as much as a hive mind. I mean there’s countless YouTubers that suck the tit of adventure time. Over all its eh not the worst thing not the best easily could change things to make it better but at the same time there’s good in the show as well like the songs are always a hit.
Why do listgays not realize this format reads as desperate cope every time?
How does it feel to sniff your own farts to post moronic shit like that?
>Nope, Finn's character was perfectly fine and the same as always. You're just not a person.
Stopped reading there, you're not worth engaging with or entertaining.
>Nope, Finn's character was perfectly fine and the same as always. You're just not a person.
>You're just not a person.
Did anon touch a nerve, industrycuck?
>where the fanfic writers paired bubblegum and marceline together
Are we pretending they weren't written as gay for each other all the way back in What Was Missing?
They were just exes, it shouldn't necessarily mean they absolutely have to get back together
Don't give trolls attention.
Not everyone who says something you disagree with is a troll you narcissistic c**t.
True, that episode was a mistake
I may be kinda moronic but I didn't see their interactions in What Was Missing as gay, I thought Marceline had taken issue with PB becoming a stuck up ruler who uses people n shit, at least when I first saw it
What show are you watching than AT?
Mostly the character assassination, i can't ever think how the writers think it was a good idea for finn take advantage of fp. You could do anything better to split em.
It was in character and you need to commit suicide right now.
>only ever heard anythign about adventure time from Cinemaphile
>Pretend to be an expert and make up what you assume happened
>none of it is even close to true
>but profit anyway, somehow?
And you literally think it's a coomer show. That didn't tip you off that maybe you got a=wrong information?
>It was in character
You literally can't even explain this one
>It was in character and you need to commit suicide right now.
Calm down, Mutogay.
Did you forget about Billy's critique? He's not so much good as naive.
Neither. And nobody dropped the show. It's a lie. Also, this episode was good.
Geez anon and what dimension are you living in?
Everyone who remained shipped Finn/FP
Not because it was that good, or even good at all it was pretty damn boring and mediocre, but because they butchered Bubblegum just to make her gays with Marceline and cuck Finn out of her
So everyone went “well ok the show apparently NEEDS him with flame princess and he has no other option, we accept it, maybe later on it’ll become fun or sexy or at least cute”
And it wasn’t, but we waited anyway, and then they pulled this shit to cuck him again
So not only was Finn and Bubblegum a giant waste of time because of Muto’s gay politics, not only was Marceline a giant waste of time, now this was too!
bubblegum i get
but has marceline ever had hints of being shipped with finn?
Pen himself’s said she was intended for waifu-bait. Finn just never focused on her hard because Bubblegum was always an option, so it was always teasing from her to him.
It was raw chemistry.
>btw Finn you’re not allowed to touch me that is totally toxic masculinity eww I am so calling you out on twitter
Hey she just said no tongue, that was the limit
Everyone talks about how the shows writing went to shit as it goes on but why does nobody ever mention the animation? Even this small part, I don't remember anything as fluid as it later on save for guest animator episodes.
Because after 2009 and onwards quality animation was not a priority and is seen as a nuisance to the studio.
Rewatching the earlier seasons, there was generally one sequence per episode where they would try something special either with the animation or the lighting and shading. It was very nice.
For me it was the soundtrack. Early AT's really stood out with its strange experimental electronic tracks.
I love it too
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>orangutan-on-life-support.gif
where did the time go
>The physical release of this soundtrack is over $500 on discogs
Well frick me, I guess I'm downloading it instead.
Yeah I’ve been rewatching at and the first thing that is noticeable is that the first season and the second to an extent have a completely different feeling soundtrack and it’s really pleasant (or it might just remind me of when I was 7 so I like it for that reason but who knows
This whole scene was hilarious. The fact that Finn just goes with it and that Marceline runs around and fights with wolfs randomly.
I also miss Marceline being a pseudo-evil feral little frick that was everyone's problem. not PB's bad girl toy
>chemistry
as friends sure. I saw absolutely no romantic tension between these two
Becky did
is that Sugar? i dont care what she thinks
Sucrose invented it and I liked the idea that they were exes.
Not in a serious manner, but she loved teasing and messing with Finn, and some interpret that in a serious romantic way.
The way I saw it, Finn was only seriously interested in PB and FP.
No.
They felt more like siblings than anything romantic.
Nah people liked when they went in that dungeon. And I still remember bitter complaints when that comic came out, that showed Finn and FP and how, now that they've broken up, it's worthless, while the comic was widely liked.
>maybe later on it’ll become fun or sexy or at least cute”
>And it wasn’t
Frick you
Nah, most of the fandom unironically liked Finn x FP, to this day it remains some people's favorite Finn ship.
Because most of the fandom are brainless, independence-less little kids (and zoomers who still act like kids). And when the show blares at you via megaphone that Bubblegum and Finn is wrong and you’re a bad person for wanting it because muh agegap, suprise surprise they start parroting it too and suddenyl the only “approved” ship is the only one that gets pushed.
Most of older NuAT "fans" outside of Cinemaphile are first and foremost bubbline shippers.
They're smarter than you, then.
This is pure headcanon. You're so blinded with hate towards Bubbline that you can't even grasp the idea of people legitimately liking other Finn ships that aren't FinnxPB.
Finn and FP were unironically cute together.
>WWM
This is completely true. I liked FP, but she was already a symptom of another character getting butchered, so it's no surprised she was swept under the rug when they got bored with her.
There were no gay signs of Bubbline happening prior to the FP break-up, gay. You're making shit up.
even if you knew nothing about the show by just hearing the synopsis of the episode you would think is a terrible idea.
>The protagonist makes his GF fight and old man because he is getting wet dreams about it.
>even if you
ONLY if you. Ftfy. It makes perfect sense and is kino in the actual show.
Oh did she? Also what's your point?
Remember this two? they did jack shit in the finale.
What pisses me off even more is Finn did this to Ice King after he found out about Simon and his history as Marceline's father figure.
Who's paying the guy to lie to defend the show years after it ended?
Me. I am. I gave him $5 to blindly shill this shit for lolz. Money well spent.
Up until then, Finn and FP's relationship had been ideal, so for them to suddenly blow it all up in one episode was pretty bad.
>Finncels STILL coping
>Mutocucks still can’t argue
I'd say that the character assassination is the biggest factor here, much more than the ship sinking they tried to pull off despite how the few defenders of this episode attempt to call you as just another mad shipper, everyone acts too moronic just for the sake of cheap drama , the conflict is kickstarted thanks to an outside influence and even I as 13 y/o could tell back then that they were throwing Finn under the bus to erase FP as potential secondary character in the main cast since they never finished any of her previous arc properly.
And the worst thing is that this is not even the worst example of this, they did the same to Finn in Too old because they thought they didn't make him unlikable enough in this episode even though you could remove him from that ep and nothing would change except cringing at his simping attempts towards PB
I just realized. Is there an actual name for this trope where the writer, in the name of rushing towards a break-up designed either to write a character off or make room for another ship, will character assassinate one of the two within the couple to engineer said breakup?
I feel like if I checked, I'd find a version of this directed at fanfiction users but as fandoms start to influence shows, you're starting to be able to count how often that shit happens
Theres probably a gay page about it on tvtropes if you're that desperate for a name
I usually refer to it as "holding the idiot ball"
Someone normally smart has to act dumb for the plot to progress.
The >tvtropes name is "Derailing Love Interests".
>tvtropes name is "Derailing Love Interests".
surprised that frost and fire wasn't included on the list given how it embodied that trope
The character going OOC there was Finn.
Big "Hynden talking about PB and Finn" vibes
>Big "Hynden talking about PB and Finn" vibes
Wait, what?
>Hynden talking about PB and Finn
Quick rundown? She wanted PB and Finn to end up together? Based if true, a lot of the heart of the show died when Bubblegum became written as "off limits" as Finn's main love interest.
>she's too old for him!
She's a magic wad of gum.
I don't know know for sure if it's connected, but Princess Bubblegum used to be a super fun and beloved character in the first couple of seasons, then around the time she stopped being as sweet on Finn she got written as more of a sociopath with a stick up her ass than she used to be, and she wasn't nearly as liked since then.
For me it wasn’t about the ship itself more how the break up was handled and how they went out of their way to make Finn seem like a creepy butthole, completely OOC.
>episode is about Finn fetish-mining
Decimated is stating it lightly.
I Will be forever butthurt by the red throne/Fire & ice
For me it was both, I thought it was an incredibly stupid way to break up a pretty cute couple and it felt out of character for Finn. It didn't help that it felt like the show was going downhill anyway, that was just the straw that broke the camel's back.
Finn knows who Ice king is, simon and marcy took place before this episode. The fact he did this shit is so out of character and the wet dream analogy is pretty disgusting.
it was a genuinely bizarre direction for the show. never recovered for a long time.
It was the weirdest and most sudden tonal shift in the series, it kind of sucked for some time
>was it just so badly written it assassinated Finn's character?
Yes, fans who stuck around like to frame it as Finn being a stupid lovestruck teenager trying to make his wet dream a reality and having to go through the motions of maturing but really though this was just a shitty episode where everyone acted out of character
Finn getting over PB and getting with FP was the progression Finn needed to grow. Him tricking his girlfriend into beating on a guy Finn knows is a victim of magic and dementia just so he can get off was shit writing and the show just barely recovers from it a decade later by giving confirming Finn x Huntress Wizard after repeatedly dancing around it for years
It really didn't recover, they never outright confirm it because "muh open ended ending" and even if they did so HW isn't that much better, she's just a background character that people only liked for her nice design and the only reason why she hooked up with Finn was because one of the writers was venting his opinion on relationships but changed his mind at last minute.
Early Marcy, a character that people genuinely liked since the start of the show, would've been a much better option for him, but sadly, they removed her early charm just to pair her with PB and instead we got nu-Marcy by the series finale
Look up how many Finn/FP fanfics there are on Archive of our own and FFnet
She's the most popular option.
She's the most popular option because people who write straight fanfics are fricking cowards
This is still my favorite episode tbh. It was just so comfy.
As someone who was here at the time it was this one and breezy that pissed people off. Rootbeer guy getting fricked over also didn't go well which is why he is the bartender in fionna an cake
Where does the shit for the Breezy episode come from? Yes she turned herself into queen for him and he didn't reciprocate, but do people feel personally attacked by moments like that?
most of the breezy hate comes from LSP basically raping Finn and also him getting his arm back way too fast
LSP did not rape Finn, that's just a meme that Cinemaphile tricked itself into believing to hate Breezy even more, I feel like you people sometimes forget this is still a show for kids, at most they probably just made out for more than Finn would've liked, which is why he wipes his face when they're done.
I can understand the hate for Finn getting his arm back way too fast, but I think another part of why the episode is so hated because of what it was following on, which was basically Finn's depression about his girl problems, something most fans already weren't a fan of, so any continuation of it that didn't have Finn immediately getting with another girl was obviously not going to be anyone's favorite.
Then there's also the fact that seeing Finn bum around Ooo kissing random princesses while feeling nothing could've also just made audiences not care just like Finn, or get upset because of how different Finn was acting compared to his usual self.
I actually rewatched the episode just in case to see if it was as I remember it being, and it really wasn't, at most it was kinda depressing seeing Finn all sad like that, but overall it was just kind of a nothing episode where Finn gets his arm back after hanging out with a bee, it's definitely one of the most "nothing" episodes of the show, but I think it's also way overhated.
It's the episode that (mostly) gets him out of his depressive funk. That's not nothing.
I meant nothing in the sense that it's not very entertaining, narratively speaking, it's a very important episode that someone trying to get the whole story of Adventure Time simply cannot ignore, it's not Sad Face, but at the same time, it's a very sullen episode, Finn is depressed, sings a sad song about how sad he is, he's forcing himself to kiss princesses he feels no attraction to and tries to have fun while his flower dies, etc. It only really ends in a happy note, which a lot of people simply can't enjoy because it has Finn getting his arm back, which a lot of people didn't like, there's very little "fun" in this episode.
Maybe if they made the arm cooler/more obviously fake people would've liked it better, maybe made out of grass or wood, that way they know Finn doesn't ACTUALLY has his arm back, but just a prosthetic, and it makes more sense when he loses it again.
I liked Finn and FP and wanted them to do more with it, but it was mostly Finns character that made me drop the show. Going from energetic boy who wants to "help anyone in need so everyone is happy" to someone who mentally abuses his girlfriend, ignores the suffering of lemon people to simp for PB and overall be a creep.
They made him OOC for some forced "maturity arc" but if they wanted to do that they could have just had him contemplate basically beating up a mentally ill old guy which would go against his hero code. instead of just LoL remember when we beat this shit out of you?
Mostly badly written, plus you could tell they were running out of steam for that ship and writing about finn, which didnt get any better, AT was more about the world and wacky places in the start of the run, the shift to focusing more on characters could have been good, had they not written them like self-inserts from within the studio.
That episode was pretty much the lowest point of the series. It was such an incredibly out of character moment for Finn. The writers were desperate to write FP out of the story.
Phoebe's going for that grass wiener.
Fern had no lungs, no stomach, and definitely no wiener.
Gumbald can make one for him. 🙂
A bit late for both Fern and Gumbald methinks.
>Having the main couple of the show break up for drama: totally fine
>Making the breakup be the main character's fault: totally fine
>Creating an entirely new personality flaw for the MC that causes the situation: moronic
Could've used any of his already existing flaws to force the situation, instead of making up something up. That's my biggest problem with Frost and Fire. The fight scenes were cool tho
Some writer had to hate FP, they pretty much wrote her out of the show after that episode.
It's the current goon Showrunner of the property for one.
>Some writer had to hate FP
And you would be correct if you look up at the people behind her eps, Xayaphone for example which was behind many FP eps had a hateboner for FP, in fact the rap episode makes this very obvious by implying she's boring and nothing but the Fire Kingdom and he even tried to do a Lauren Zuke and force his CB x FP ship in a joke during that episode because he hates her that much.
>force his CB x FP ship
That was based actually.
Their bedroom would smell like tosted cinnamon
Wasn't this deconfirmed?
Yes, at least going by an old CN tweet.
Yes, but I like to believe otherwise because it's funny.
>new personality flaw
Finn was always an emotionally moronic spaz, ESPECIALLY when it came to relationships. His relationship with FP showed how immature he was from the start. There's one episode where he mentions how he's still trying to keep his options open with PB, WHILE WITH FP. Frost & Fire was totally in character for a Finn dealing with new hormone-fueled feelings. He's not a bad dude, but he is not that emotionally intelligent.
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the reason why Finn was all mopey in the first place was because of the fact that PB and Finn could have worked out if it weren't for the fact that PB is so old? Not to mention that Finn was saving princesses from Ice King , both Finn & Jake remark that he is a sad sick, old man and even tried to help him on multiple occasions. I can't help but find myself agreeing that Finn having all these relationship issues have no real place in his character and would go so far as to say the show itself. It did nothing but drag it down in the end.
I thought it was funny too, but you can't help but wonder what happened to 'kid-and-funny-dog-go-on-adventures'?
It wasn't just him crying over PB (which was pathetic), but everything about his relationship with FP. He was instantly infatuated with her, and he confused that with love. He still toyed with the idea of being with PB whilst with FP. He thought that FP was gonna break up with him because she didn't laugh at his joke. He's never been good at understanding his own emotions, let alone those of others. On some level he probably knew that manipulating FP to fight IK was wrong, but it makes total sense to me that he wouldn't fully understand just how bad that manipulation really was. He was still a kid dealing with powerful new emotions. I think people are uncomfortable with the idea that a generally good dude like Finn could be such an butthole, but it happens.
Yeah no matter how you justify it, I can sum it up much simpler to make it creeped. Replace the word fight with frick and it turns into fire princess frick the Ice king while I watch. So yeah cuckold fetish creepy.
>people are uncomfortable with the idea that a generally good dude like Finn could be such an butthole, but it happens.
It's not Finn being an butthole that people have a problem with. I personally love a good episode where the hero becomes an butthole, sees the error of their ways, then comes back around. The problem is that Finn was acting like Ice King 2.0, thus having a full on character 180. It's never sat right with me that people will hand wave how divisive Finn's character arc is by saying people identify too much with Finn. Which I agree with, but it's ultimately a moronic argument to hinge your defense on because he is the main character. To reiterate, Finn was saving princesses from Ice King , both Finn & Jake remark that he is a sad, sick old man and even tried to help him on multiple occasions. Finn turning into a manipulative POS who puts FP in danger to get his rocks off does not track.
It's not a 180 for the reasons I mentioned. Finn was young and emotionally immature. FP wasn't in danger, it's a cartoon, you shouldn't treat it as analogous to like a fist fight irl.
His emotional intelligence when it came to relationships was always dogshit. Couple that with teen hormones, and it tracks.
>Finn was young and emotionally immature
They could have shown that in a different way instead of some OOC manipulation plot. Moreover I am not treating it like a fist fight irl, what are you talking about? I don't care what the analogy does or does not fit in the context of the episode right now, the issue at hand is whether or not Finn would do something like this or not, which he would not given what we knew about Finn up until his moping fits.
>Finn was young and emotionally immature
Why is the defence of this stuff always so disingenuous? Just throwing out immature doesn't justify any and all action. Finn had shown enough emotional intelligence throughout the series to know manipulating someone for pleasure was bad. The Silent King
is all about him being against using people to fill his every need. To make him act out needed a good structure to justify why he didn't see what he was doing, such as All the Little People abstracting the problem to dolls. Oh and you'll notice, he was meant to learn from that episode. If arcs are so important then you should be annoyed at a needless relapse.
Its also weird how you'll go on about how Finn must go through this arc and present all his flaws through a real world understanding. But then this event is whoa just a cartoon don't take it at face value. Finn did have issues over attachment he needed to work through. This didn't do that, no one ever thought he needed to manipulate people over a burgeoning cuck fetish so he could grow. What should've happened is Finn slowly realising he can't make this relationship work, so unlikely with PB where it crashes in on him he after much struggle is willing to let her go. That would actually be an arc about maturity people pretend a wet dream to seasons of being depressed was. Cause he did not show any improvement after this shit, by the end of the show Finn comes off as more awkward around his female friends.
>disingenuous
anon, they're only here to stunt on gays like you that take cartoons seriously. If the lgbt shit didn't bother nerds, they'd have all got ntr'd by jake or some other trash to make you seethe.
>Why is the defence of this stuff always so disingenuous?
It's absolutely necessary to defend adventure times shit writing
>What should've happened is Finn slowly realising he can't make this relationship work, so unlikely with PB where it crashes in on him he after much struggle is willing to let her go.
Yes but that would require forethought and planning which adventure time writers seem incapable of. Better to just crash the ship in one episode, hype it up as special and then pretend it was super deep later
If this was the start of his "gaining maturity" arc, then where the frick is the end? He was just a whiny b***h after that forever and then the show ended. An arc needs an end point to count.
You never stop growing :^)
I don't like his arc but I'd set it out as
>Realises he has no chance with PB, tries with FP
>They try to make it work but clearly have issues
>Has a weird cuck wet dream, manipulates her and ruins it
>Generally depressed
>Gets upstaged by Cinnamon Bun
>Rejected by dad and loses an arm
>After a few days partying gets "forcefully kissed" by LSP making him dream about PB singing a song about love or adventuring I really don't know what the implication was also he has an arm again
>Also he is the reincarnation of a comet also is okay with his dad now?
>Has an unhealthy start to a relationship with HW
>Meets mom, doesn't really change him but closure
>He is just sort of normal again
Being charitable I'd say there intention was rather than a big moment he generally improved as a person and moved past his issues. That however doesn't work when you have so many people writing episodes and not working closely together.
AT had some solid eps but the overall "arcs" are some of the worst in cartoon history. Just pure flinging things at the wall and hoping something sticks.
it had a couple payoffs. the ep where finn apologizes to FP and understands why what he did was messed up was great, very emotionally intelligent and satisfying. another payoff for me was when he confessed to huntress wizard, but did it in a way that was cool. they didn't immediately become an item but they smooched and Finn went about his next round of adventures without doing the weepy sadsack routine. Finn and HW even stayed friends and had cool adventures in the seasons after, and it was looking like she was getting more and more into Finn
>even stayed friends and had cool adventures in the seasons after, and it was looking like she was getting more and more into Finn
Im pretty sure that was what they were going to do but ran out of time and put them back together in a single episode instead, lol
You cope so hard to defend this dumb shit and it still doesn't actually make much sense. Fricking no one is pulling what finn did in frost and fire and prior to that no one had any good reason to expect he would do it.
>Frost & Fire was totally in character for a Finn
Lying to and putting someone he cares about in danger for completely selfish reasons? Yeah sure buddy.
Exactly holy shit that anon is on some insane copium. You would think they wrote it.
>Frost & Fire was totally in character for a Finn
Go away, Adventure Time writer. Your asocial ilk are not welcome in this den of autists.
>His relationship with FP showed how immature he was from the start.
He's 12 when the show starts.
Yeah, exactly.
Anon please, his emotional intelligence is as inconsistent as his powelevel, in one episode he's totally fine and in another he has the emotional intelligence of CWC, this is why I don't believe in any "character development" from later seasons since any writer can just take away or downplay any character trait for the sake of cheap drama
All the things you quote to claim that Finn is moronic come from S5 or later. Go back to S1-just before the end of S4, he's much more consistently sensitive and caring (at least when he isn't getting wound up about something, which was also a consistent thing - he's a little too easy to antagonise and his righteous fury sometimes gets ahead of him actually doing the right thing)
>yeah dude Finn who is supposed to be a pure hero who is all about chivalry would totally 100 percent go with Jake’s plan when it’s been shown that Finn not only goes against Jake line of thought but also to hurt people for his own personal gain when he has refused to do so several times before
Is this the only last episode Rebecca Sugar has worked on?
I think her last episode was Simon and Marcy.
You mean season finale? She worked on Mortal Folly, if that counts (it does).
>Finn was always an emotionally moronic spaz,
He was emotionally healthy for a crazy cartoon kid up until Rebecca got her perverted hands on him.
I stopped watching at Breezy. Not specifically because of Breezy, that just happened to be the last one I saw. It just hadn't been a very fun or good show in a while.
I thought it was hilarious. I didn't realize how seriously people took Adventure Time until I browsed the community.
Same
This was a pretty huge dent in my interest, but the one with the Bee (?) was the killing blow. Breezy or something?
I just finished season 3, episode 10 in my rewatch, and I honestly think that Finn and FP were meant to be but not meant to last, despite how cute they were. I havent gotten to their episodes, but if I remember correctly she always burned Finn involuntarily when they touched, and being engaged with her meant staying in the Fire Kingdom or something, like how Cinnamon Bun eventually settled there. I don't think settling would've worked out for an adventurer. What was moronic though was how a mostly amicable relationship was dumped spontaneously in a single episode instead of a gut wrenching, agonizing slow burn of falling OUT of love. That's how you get people engaged AND heartbroken. Then again, it isn't the first time that trust and love in a relationship went up in smoke in less than a week in AT.
Reading the quote retweets makes me think a lot of people take out their past frustration with bad teenage boyfriends on cartoon characters. That and people either not capable or purposefully trying to avoid the implications of it all.
My problem isn't that they broke up, but they did it wrong. There was very clear build up to them not having the same interests and FP somewhat inherent villain side not lining up with Finn. There's a really good story to tell there of both FP finding herself while not being define by her lineage, and Finn struggling with liking someone who just isn't compatible. Instead we get an awkward wet dream cuck episode, then Finn getting upstaged by an actual moron.
Both, but mostly the latter for me.
Want Finn and FP to break up to showcase first/young love and how it doesn't last? A-okay totally acceptable.
Want to make it moreso Finn's fault to showcase him going through his dumb hormonal phase as he struggles to grow up? Sure, that can work.
Write him as an uncharacteristic weirdo sex pervert out of nowhere? Yeah, no that was fricked.
It was such an excuse to frick Finn. Finally the man gets over bubblegum dyke Nazi and gets some ass but all of a sudden he's too much of a horny weirdo to function.
I dropped Adventure Time after the season 4 finale. I hated the farmworld episodes
Why?
I mostly didn’t like how they tormented Finn in his wish world. I get that it was monkeys paw but still didn’t like the tone shift.
Ending the conflict with a wish and having Finn just forget everything was kinda cheap too
I thought it was a cool "What if" scenario, I always like those.
I didn't midn Finn fricking up his first real love affair, but I got really sick of how the show kept dwelling on it rather than moving on. Dropped it at the end of that season.
You're not gonna get an objective answer here because most people replying to you are Finn/FP shippers. Well, not dedicated shippers per se, mostly just guys who self-insert as Finn and want him to get laid with anyone.
No such thing as an objective answer for entertainment, there will be emotional investment doesn't mean people can't give out well thought out replies. So don't be a dishonest b***h or a stupid b***h
The premise of the episode was God awful, I don't know what the frick they were thinking. The fallout from it can be felt for seasons afterward, Finn being depressed about the breakup is the starting point for dozens of episodes to come.
It was a segway into character building.
You can build WITHOUT utterly destroying first.
Indeed, but with that ship how would it have worked. Fin human, Phoebe fire, it was foreshadowed to end badly with the goblin town.
Could've worked with flame enchant
Have it end naturally as the two gradually come to understand that it's not going to work long-term. Like any sane writer would understand.
Huntress Wizard > Flame Princess, I never liked her annoying whiny ass and people just clung to her because they were pathetic virgins who desperately wanted Finn to get a gf
>who desperately wanted Finn to get a gf
And HW isn't? We all know that was a pity LI thrown in at the very end.
Is this episode airing why there are so many cuck fetishists on Cinemaphile now?
I remember thinking that whoever wrote it should be fired because there's little you could do to make this have some kind of satisfying pay off or make it part of some kind of chekov's gun for a later episode
Let’s be honest here. Who would win if they were both 100% serious? Ice King or FP?
Fire princess is a jobber.
I wasn't that into the Finn/Flame Princess relationship and I dropped the show because of this episode. It ruined Finn's character to me and the plot creeped me out (him getting off to his girlfriend and some old ice wizard fighting is creepy to me)
I didn't like FP when I was younger, but the whole breakup mess they went though WAS still annoying by how much it shat on Finn.
Plus its not really hard to drop a series when you started watching it for fun adventures and the occasional weird lore episode and then just keep getting shitty romance drama.
I wasn't even a Finn/FP shipper when this episode aired but I just thought it was weird and annoying.
It's literally
>MUH SHIPPING
Even as a dumb Kid i recognized how Badly they handled the break up. I wasn't even mad they split since even tho i found them really cute they didn't really feel permanent, but to have it be due to some weird kink finn had was just awful and is the lowest point in the series for me.
I dont even think Finn characters was assassinated as he is still really good after this point it just feels like them made him extremely out of character for the sake of lasting conflict which always sucks. Tho i will admit him at least apologizing to her seasons after the fact was nice
the forbidden ship
Unironically cute. Wonder how they could be written to work.
they also have the best ship name: bonfire.
>"I'm sorry Finn you're too young for me"
>Turns around and starts fricking your ex, who is also the same age as you are.
I'm not saying it isn't a cute ship with good narrative potential but frick, that would be hilariously awful.
It would be accurate to FP's character atleast.
She's partly to blame why she was locked up in that lamp in the first place, it's just as toxic as FinnxPB because PB is just that much of a c**t
If anything, it's even more toxic. FP has existentially been cloistered for her entire life so she has little in the way of actual experience. Finn at least has friends and his adventuring life style. An adult PB doing FP is pretty imbalanced due to that gulf.
PB deserves to end alone.
Plot points just kept getting resolved in lame ways, people lost interested around that time.
I remember that whole love arc was so bad.
Like I enjoy the episodes and all but I can recall watching that scene where finn yells at bubblegum when she goes to tell him he can't kiss FP
I was a little boy watching it with my mom and I can rememeber we just awkwardly sat there and went "wow."
It wasn't pleasant.
>Were there that many Finn/FP shippers or was it just so badly written it assassinated Finn's character?
I tried doing a marathon of the show a few years ago, this episode is pretty much the point where things are starting to drift in a completely different direction for no good reason. It felt completely tone deaf and off putting. I dropped the marathon at the end of that season.
You don't have to be a shipper to find that episode moronic and off putting.
>Vast majority of the fanbase had this kind of negative reaction to the episode
>There are still some dedicated autists obsessed with defending this episode and trying to argue that it wasn't a dumpster fire
>One of them is in this thread right now
are these autists the product of rabid contrarianism or do they just really have such bad taste?
ad populum is a logical fallacy. It was a good episode.
In what ways? I'd love to hear your reasoning.
It's been a while since I've seen it, but Finn letting his sexual desires cloud his judgment made sense to me. He has an obsessive, intense personality. We saw a bit of how those traits can have a dark side with the little people episode. His frickup with FP opened the door to Finn becoming a more introspective person. Other than that, I remember the showdown at the end being pretty sick, and IK being funny.
That's literally begging the question lmao, which is exactly what you're acusing me of doing. You're presupposing it's not enjoyable to conclude it's bad.
>media is designed to be enjoyable to watch
>good media is enjoyable to watch
>frost and fire fails to be enjoyable to watch
>ergo, frost and fire fails to be good media
Don't even try to quote fallacies as if you actually understand how logical reasoning works, when your only argument for it being good boils down to "it just is, because I want it to be that way, okay??"
It's the same anon who defends Muto's stuff in every AT thread everytime someone criticizes anything from the show. I've never seen someone aside from SUgays trying to defend such shitty writing.
I was never a big AT watcher but do remember thinking how this was such a lame way to break the couple up.
I dropped this show like five minutes into trying to watch one episode (around its second or third year). Show was pretty but dialogue was dull as dishwater.
I just felt some burnout on the show and didn't come back until years later, when I could genuinely enjoy the later episodes even if not everyone landed. I get where they were going with making Finn a bad boyfriend in this relationship, but they definitely took it too far at points. This one was horrible because they wanted to do something that was wild in the show's world, so they caused this dumbass fight to stew up. Finn getting a better partner does help me at least swallow this more in hindsight, and he got some welcome development after this around his parents in particular. Still, echoing others that this was a horrid way to break the two up, especially with them having some really grounded moments in the past.
I was on board for the first season wacky dumb adventures where they fight monsters and go to wizard schools and make jokes.
By the time this shit came along it was 100% a totally different show starring totally different characters.
I stuck around for the comet stuff, at least some of the mysterious mysteries shit they were adding in looked interesting. When that turned into a big fat nothing I just gave up and never bothered with a single thing Adventure Time ever again.
Never watched any after that, no finale, no Distant Lands, or Fiona. I was done with the show that turned into weird shit is happening for the sake of weird shit.
There was a clear shift that was going on where the show wasn't about madcap, low stakes adventures anymore, and the ending of the silly, not-to-be-thought-about-too-hard relationship between Finn and PB was scuttled in favor of feelings and shipshit.
The beginning of which wasn't bad, but it was all the writers were interested in, so the show took a nosedive. They explained so much that the sort of random nonsense that defined the first two seasons people fell in love with couldn't exist, at least not in the same way.
Much like Homestuck, which was largely contemporary, a small group of very vocal fans shifted something far away from its original direction, and then screamed at people who didn't like where it had gone.
I dropped the show at Breezy but this one definitely made me rise an eyebrow as a kid
A fricking wet dream metaphor? Really?
For me it was just that it solidified the shift in the tone of the show away from the goofy one-off adventures and wasn't for me
It made me think the writers had been taken over by pedophiles. Who else could come up with such slop directed at children.
I kinda wish they did more with fern.
Also I fricking hate romance subplots that made me drop Mystery Inc too.
Fern was even worse than romance subplots.
He would have been fine if they made him the anti-finn instead of boo hoo I'm so sad man
>boo hoo I'm so sad man
That's literally everything that was wrong with AT ever since Finn threw that "ONLY BUBBLEGUM" tantrum.
I can see Martin actually asking that
>Just trying to enjoy your space adventurer life
>Writers force some moronic plotline about you getting captured or whatever and your son from like 40 years ago coming back and forcing some relationship drama
What happened to the good old days?
He’s so based
He really didn't need a reason to be a shithead of a father. They should've just kept his backgrond unknown so that Finn could move on and realize his real parents were Joshua and Margaret.
I personally liked the episode
Reminds me how Steven Universe started as Adventure and quickly went down the shitter, if TT:GO came out S2 of SU then SU would have been canceled quickly for a full schedule of TT:GO lol
Get ready
Dope.
autism inbound,I hate fricking self fulfilling prophecies
>learn that you frick something up
>try to fix the situation/try to figure out the situation using prophecy
>in doing so you frick it up
>would you even have fricked it up in the beginning if you never knew you were prophesied to frick it up?
IT WAS ALREADY ESTABLISHED THE COSMIC OWL MAKES A PROPHETIC DREAM, USUALLY LIFE/DEATH
OH but Finn trying to actually learn what it means fricks him over?
THATS NOT A WARNING, COSMIC OWL ONLY EXPLAINS IT ONCE ITS TOO LATE
Was Finn being weird about it? sure hes a hormonal teen thats what they do, but the whole story pisses me off so much, they couldve made an ep with them not vibing and breaking up but they hinged it on a flawed shitty situation
Yeah cosmic owl was a dick in this one.
It also doesn't help that far as I remember there were no cracks in the relationship shown before this. Like if things were already getting kind of rocky a breakup episode wouldn't have felt quite as abrupt. But things seemed fine between them and then this episode comes out and it all goes south so abruptly.
I think it would’ve been funny if they retconned it into Cosmic Owl wasn’t even supposed to be in that dream
That would require the writers to address Finn's love life, AKA the thing they utterly refuse to do.
Videos
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Man Or Muppet
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Lyrics
I reflect on my reflection
And I ask myself the question
What's the right direction to go
I don't know
Am I a man or am I a muppet
If I'm a muppet then I'm a very manly muppet
Am I a muppet or am I a man
If I'm a man that makes me a muppet of a man
I look into these eyes
And I don't recognize
The one I see inside
It's time for me to decide
Am I a man or am I a muppet
If I'm a muppet oh I'm a very manly muppet
Am I a muppet or am I a man
If I'm a man that makes me a muppet of a man
Here I go again
I'm always running out of time
I think I've made up my mind
Now I understand who I am
I'm a man
I'm a muppet
I'm a muppet of a man
I'm a very manly muppet
I'm a muppet of a man
That's what I am
FinnxFP was such a popular ship, all of the episodes focused around them were the most viewed in all of ATs history- it even eclipsed Bubbline shit
>FinnxFP was such a popular ship, all of the episodes focused around them were the most viewed in all of ATs history
Really? Guess they killed it before it grew too big.
Also they really didn't how to write FP and it shows in any episode afterwards, Marceline had more or less the same problem where her early charm was removed and replaced with nothing but
>muh Simon/PB/Hudson
>frost and fire never happens
>Finn X FP eventually becomes to big to end without causing an even bigger shitstorm
>bubbline happens to decent fanfare
>no finncels
>less stupid shipping bullshit
>no constant fighting between bubblinegays and finncels
i know for a fact i'm being way to optimistic but still
>no finncels
Yep anon you're too optimistic, even in this alternate timeline there're still gonna be finncels because a good chunk of people would still see FP as a consolation prize, which she in fact was and admitted from the writers themselves, the only difference is that it would Bubblinegays/Flinngays vs Finncels in general that hate both ships
I think that the whole thing with Finn doing that moronic shit with flame princess and ice king was a neat idea with absolutely ZERO base. Finn quite literally would never do something like that, there was no buildup, no anything. Genuinely upsetting that such a disappointing arc was allowed to happen like that.
"Burning Low" was seen by 3.504 million viewers, making it the highest-rated episode of Adventure Time that has ever aired and had viewing data.
Didn't they promote the shit out of it with out of context clips implying PB is jealous
Yes, but imagine.
The final scene is better because it implies she *is* jealous
It's not part of the screencap, but the storyboard still kept the "...Shut up." If anything, that amps up the level of denial.
Interesting, I wonder where they were going with that since it's never actually followed up on
Pretty sure they just throw things out there and then decide if they want to make something out of them later. For all the callbacks it really doesn't seem like most of AT was that planned out. Some things, sure. But if something wasn't followed up on I assume it wasn't intended to be.
True but if the goal of this arc was to permanently get rid of the idea Finn can be with PB it's strange to leave it ambiguous and imply she might actually be jealous
Sort of, but not the way fubblegays interpret it.
The editor probably was a delusional FP shipper
https://desuarchive.org/co/thread/39111545/#39124599
Legendary first ever Bacon Pancakes appearance
Also is it just me or does that video not have a view counter at all
I too can't see the counter.
I forgot about Bacon Pancakes
Would you believe one of the e-girls from Fate did a homage song about black cat pancakes
>Were there that many Finn/FP shippers or was it just so badly written it assassinated Finn's character?
It was embarrassing, it was nasty, it was moronic and it wasn't funny, the metaphorical line on the sand where you can say "the show was never the same and it never really recovered from this"
If i had something nice to say i would say that it was very "Bold" of them to do this, but i've seen this sort of development before and its always really, REALLY "Bold" to ruin your own show on purpose like this
>If i had something nice to say i would say that it was very "Bold" of them to do this, but i've seen this sort of development before and its always really, REALLY "Bold" to ruin your own show on purpose like this
This is very well put and I know exactly the kind of thing you're describing. It's very "daring" to destroy something that works. But it's seen as such because there's a very real possibility that what you replace it with wont work, and if you don't pull off that gamble then things are fricked.
>It was embarrassing, it was nasty, it was moronic and it wasn't funny,
To add to this it was also extremely fricking weird and as subtle as a brick to the head. I can imagine watching this as a kid and, while not understanding all the context, being disturbed to my very core. I was already a teenager when I watched this, and I was floored how they would do something so gross and on the nose in a kids cartoon.
The show was becoming insufferable at that point. Too excited about sniffing its own farts than just having fun stories.
Like I get it you like writing Lemonhead, lumpy space princess, Jake's shitty family life, flashbacks about ice king, and having Finn be miserable. But this is a fricking kids show, not your live journal.
HOW IS MY POST STILL UP
This is no joke I legit dropped the show after this episode also, it's so dumb.
I didn't drop it because I'm the type to finish what I started, but it definitely was when I started to fall out of love of the show.
I loved the episode so much that I bought a shirt based on it. I dropped the show later on for other reasons.
I dropped it a bit before this shit went down so i never knew what happened until years later. glad i made the choice
Do you think the writers ever regret frost and fire and all the stuff they did to finn afterwards, because you can actually see the show’s ratings start to gradually drop after this if you look it up and whenever you ask someone where they stopped watching, it’s always right around here. Like one writer must think how they handled frost and fire and everything after was a shitshow, right? They can’t all be blind to that.
I don't think they give a frick. They got given free rein to do what they wanted and they took it.
Yeah but it’s what ruined the show’s popularity. If I worked on something and a bunch of fans stopped consuming what I was working in because of something I put into the creation, I might feel like I did something wrong, possibly even try and course correct.
>They can’t all be blind to that.
I'm pretty they were, proof of this is the fact they were so damn up their own asses up until the end that they're were genuinely surprised that CN wouldn't give them yet another season after they already had 9 seasons were forced to rush the finale as result
Probably because the discussion as to when the show would end with CN was ongoing. Based on how they've talked about it, they had some indication they would get 1 more season to tie it up. The last season had episodes that served as sendoffs for each of the main characters, so they were probably hedging their bets a little.
I don't think it would've made a difference honestly. If it had stayed in the same place the hype would've worn off anyway. It's surprising AT ever reached the level of popularity it did in the first place.
As artists, your only course is to make the art you want to make and hope that people like it. The second you start doing shit solely to please fans is when you start making garbage.
Okay but I feel like there has to be some sort of middle ground between pandering to fans at their every whim and refusing to listen to any criticism about you’re handling things. Refusing to listen to criticism is how shit like andrew dobson and modern paper mario happens
People conflate refusing to listen to criticism, with disagreeing with a specific criticism. They clearly had a vision for how they wanted to progress, and they shouldn't do a 180 just because some fans didn't like it. I'm sure they knew beforehand that some fans would be very unhappy with Frost & Fire, but they did it anyway.
Seems like a majority of fans didn’t like it, I understand sticking to your guns but you gotta wonder how far you’re willing to stick to them if it gets rid of most of your fans. If you’re fine with nobody liking what you think, but I think at that point, you can’t really say you’re making something good
You can't say you're making something good if all you care about is pandering to the masses and seeking fan validation. If I'm ever fortunate enough to make a popular work of art I would rather have the majority of people despise it and a few people love it. That means I've actually said something, versus some slop that everyone thinks is alright. Frick the fans. The only people who should care about fans are businessmen.
I also disagree with the assertion that most people didn't like Frost & Fire. It's fairly polarising, but Cinemaphile is not an accurate representation of the general audience.
Except this is not a Cinemaphile only thing, most normies dropped the show around this time and also disliked this episode in general.
Who would've thought that normal people like when the cute couple stays together and doesnt break up for stupid reasons
She was always a cutie behind all that bipolar anger, her vault of bones design is still the best one
Exactly, the op is literally someone who isn’t from Cinemaphile saying they stopped watching because of this
Anon, this is the exact type of mindset that leads to mediocre slop. If you refuse to listen to anything the fans have to say, then you’re also refusing to listen to any form of criticism and that can lead to you never being able to improve. Feedback isn’t always useful but completely cutting it out can lead to trash.
I disagree. You should obviously listen to criticism, but the kind of feedback you get from a big, general audience is going to be contradictory and usually useless. Listen to critisicm from people you trust.
Then I feel like in adventure time’s case, the staff should have trusted more people, because they made a lot of terrible decisions.
>. If I'm ever fortunate enough to make a popular work of art I would rather have the majority of people despise it and a few people love it. That means I've actually said something, versus some slop that everyone thinks is alright.
Where does this moronic mindset come from? Fear of failure? Its easier to cope if you fail because you'll say "that just means I didn't make slop!"?
I swear, this takes me back to my teenage years where everyone wanted to be in a band, but they all coped about their lack of skill by saying nonsense related to "selling out" or some shit.
Fear of failure? It's the exact opposite. Fear of failure is what leads people to pander to fan expectations. It takes courage to make something you know a lot of people probably won't like. Any art worth anything is never going to appeal to everyone. Risk is an inherent part of putting something out there that has meaning. This kind of risk averse, fan-pleasing attitude is exactly why we see countless reboots and lazy sequels from hollywood.
>Fear of failure is what leads people to pander to fan expectations.
It also makes you disregard or rationalize criticism as anything other than a critique. Regardless, what you're describing already has a name: masturbation. Your "work" only exists to satisfy your ego, which is fine and all, but it doesn't make the opinion of "If a ton of people like it, its bad. BUT if its niche, then its actually good!" any less moronic.
Its born of a contrarian attitude, or a real fear of failure. If anything, its a sign of week will. A popular thing doesn't become bad just because its a popular thing, but I suspect you know this. As I've said before, this isn't the first time I've heard the "M-my work isn't popular, but that means its actually good!" cope as I'm another person who's trying to make some sort of cartoon.
>It also makes you disregard or rationalize criticism as anything other than a critique
What you're saying is definitely true, but we're talking about different things. This is what I meant when I said that people conflate inability to listen to criticism with genuine disagreement with said criticism. A bunch of fans saying something is bad, doesn't make it so. You're right that many people with sensitive egos will rationalise it this way, so you need to be intellectually honest with yourself.
>If a ton of people like it, its bad
I didn't say that at all. What I said is I'd rather make something polarising, where a lot of people hate it, but some absolutely love it, than something that everyone thinks is just OK. That would mean I didn't say anything that impactful or interesting. Obviously if a lot of people love something that doesn't make it bad by default, that should go without saying. You're projecting an attitude onto me that I don't have.
In this case, is there a way to truly tell what criticism to listen to and what to ignore
Ultimately it's a judgment call the artist has to make, but ideally you'd surround yourself with other artists whose opinion you respect.
Amen to that, but at the same time I recommend looking before one leaps - sure it takes courage to take risks, but it doesn't prevent the courage from being dumb, unfounded or reckless to avoid taking in the situation before making a risky choice
>modern paper mario
I don't think there's any explanation for why Sticker Star became a template for future Paper Marios besides a total lack of effort from all parties involved.
IDK, maybe in their minds they think they found their "true fans."
Maybe, they do say you should write for you first, so I guess that as long as they enjoy it, they're fine.
>they do say you should write for you first
Isn't this exactly what they did in Breezy?
The backslash from that episode was so hard that I personally believe that a lot of the downer and lifeless tone from the later seasons came as direct reaction from it to show.
>look now there are serious drama and consequences, we're not going back to status quo again!
How would the negative reaction from Breezy cause the show to be a lifeless later on?
To show that they're oh so serious and mature(tm)
One of the issues of that episode is that it's very hard to take Finn doing a bunch of kisses as a not subtle allegory for one night stands seriously despite the tone obviously trying to make you take it seriously and the arm needs no explanation
I think so. He really hit a rough patch there with
>losing his girlfriend
>finding his dad and losing him immediately
>unleashing the lich upon the multiverse
But It was really only up from there(apart from the Fern stuff). And the fact that they always go heavy on the fanservice when he shows up now
Don’t forget they destroyed Finn’s favorite sword in the most stupidest of ways
>Do you think the writers ever regret frost and fire and all the stuff they did to finn afterwards
Not at all, they probably enjoyed it.
Given they did that just about as weird bee episode awhile later with Finn's flower arm, entirely based on 1 writer being a pathetic sex pest.
No.
>Do you think the writers ever regret frost and fire and all the stuff they did to finn afterwards
Those guys would see it burn and rule over the ashes rather than admit they did anything wrong, especially with this kind of drama nonsense they definitely drew from personal experience as toxic people.
No. They had no interest in FP, so they wrote her out of the show.
everyone that made the show have sex with each other and spread std with each other. Why are americans like this?
What
>everyone that made the show have sex with each other
Giga based
>and spread std with each other.
Not based, not based.
Quote tweet is true. I remember wanting Ice King to kick her ass, getting excited upon seeing the DB style fight and then getting pissed when he "lost"
It was pretty much the one time Ice King fought seriously I think.
The crown at its maximum power froze the entire planet. Sure, it was in the farmworld timeline but it was an exact copy of the crown.
Ice King didn't even use 1% of the crown's power against FP
And who knows how much more it could've frozen, the only reason the ice didn't expand further is cause space is a vacuum with nothing to freeze
Woah, he is that powerful?
Possibly. The Crown itself froze the planet out of grief, not Simon.
It's not an "ice crown" it's a "wishing crown", designed to wish the comet out of existence. The reason it turns people into Ice King is because Gunter the Dinosaur wished to be like the original Ice Elemental, unfortunately Gunter was a dumb kid dinosaur so it's a poor mockery of the wizard who crafted the crown.
Properly used it could do literally anything, unfortunately it drives the wearer insane. So unlimited power but no way to actually use it.
The boss just sitting pretty on his ass while all the reality breaking wish entities monkey paw themselves into failure
He could've beaten her if he wasn't a nice albeit crazy guy. The crown was designed to stop the Lich comet from killing everything and Simon caused an ice age when he succeed in stopping the nuclear apocalypse and the arrival of the Lich in Farmworld.
This was a pretty kino kiss scene
It was also the hottest scene in the show
Is bordeline Adventure TIME!
I find this whole debacle of Finn's character spiral interesting because
I personally found this to be fine in its sibling "Regular show" but that's because Mordecai was always kind of shown as a neurotic butthole, and it was meant to in part mirror Rigby getting his shit together against Mordecai constantly floundering despite being better off at first.
It obviously wasn't perfect but it felt less like characters were being haphazardly strung around.
No clue why the writers became so obsessed with making Finn just a creepy weirdo for so long when FP hit the stage.
Well I do have 1 clue, and that's that the writers are creepy weirdos projecting onto Finn, but that can be blamed on the Breezy episode commentary.
yeah everyone makes fun of Mordecai but noone thinks he got assassinated because he was like that from the start. Finn is just pathetic because he started off so high then suddenly they decided it'd be "interesting" if they made him start sinking and never stop
What makes this actually terrible is they spend so many episodes on finn and FP overcoming the odds together, but then they end it in the most moronic way possible, retroactively making all those previous episodes a total waste of time.
Because let's face it, even disregarding the character stuff, if you take a step back and look at it: frost and fire is fricking moronic.
The Finn/FP relationship was written like shit, like they become friends offscreen in just her second appearance after her first one had her as an evil living time bomb, she could have been Finn's Catwoman or something
But ending it like shit was insult to injury, and they made some artist do a graphic novel that filled in what they should have done themselves, and announced it right before or even after Frost and Fire, iirc
I really pity that poor artist, probably had the same reaction as most did the first time she saw Frost and Fire and thought of the bad timing of her comic
Its so strange how this comic predicted how Finn would feel to me in the later seasons.
We all know who truly is /ourFinn/
>a world where finn is the only human
>becomes a little deranged and weird as a result of it because that's what would happen in a real scenario
kino honestly
honestly between this episode and the follow up one where Finn bawds around and gets raped by lumpy space princess, this was the first time i ever questioned what was going on in the writers personal lives. it's just incredibly weird to just decide to put into a kids show without there being some personal baggage behind the scenes
Oh right, might as well point out that IanJ hates good relationships.
Wtf Cinemaphilemmarades, Ian J was supposed to be /ourguy/
All autism can be traced back to Sonic.
How it should have ended in Frost and Fire.
this but with a stinger at the end of FP being like "i still want to break up though" would have completely fixed this episode
>man creates a successful entertainment product
>woman ruins it
Many such cases.
STOP MAKING THREADS ABOUT THIS AMERIMUTT israeliteSLOP ALREADY
You're on Cinemaphile homie!
All western shows are "le cringe and blue pilled"
Now, frick off back to
and have a nice day!
I had no idea Marceline would be such a popular character to ship with Finn, and I somehow expected people to have lost interest in FP on that matter. In my mind people would either go with PB or HW, and yet those two combined still cannot match half of what FP or Marcy got. I do remember one particular black and white comics about Finn and FP that was miles better than anything the show could have done with them.
Really? I think it's not surprising that Marceline and FP are the most popular girls.
The former one was always popular from the start and her evil girl goth side was always a better than the alternative that was the lame and boring PB, with the latter is more or less the same appeal but with the difference that she has the same age as Finn, has multiples angles to write interesting stories due to their history in the show and it doesn't directly conflict with bubbline like the former.
HW came too late to catch up with the other girls and PB was always boring and became unlikeable later on, her ship only worked when she was 13 in too young, basically this
I'd argue that's because FF.net was particularly popular when FP was the main ship, the ships are more varied in AO3.
>people ship finn with his genderbent counterpart more than PB
Glorious
The show did a ton of heavy lifting in order to suppress Finn and PB shipping in order to achieve Bubbline after the first couple of seasons set up Fubble as endgame. The sort of people who still ship Finn and PB even after the smear campaign aren't the sort of people who write fics.
PB and Finn shipping was only gonna work if the show ended on her becoming 13.
Shit was gonna become instantly too awkward to keep writing from then on, after you're given time to think about it.
On top of the writing puzzle of "What do you even do with this sugary surface level relationship in a weird show like this"
It was never made to last, it was nothing more than a crush Finn had, PB liked Finn as a parent in the early seasons.
>PB and Finn shipping was only gonna work if the show ended on her becoming 13.
It's cute how you think shippers care about age gaps
>It was never made to last, it was nothing more than a crush Finn had, PB liked Finn as a parent in the early seasons.
Nah it was the planned pairing from the get-go, but the show got renewed one too many times and other writers got to interfere with that
>It's cute how you think shippers care about age gaps
Writers do though, especially for publicly aired TV shows.
Well yeah but we were talking about shippers
It's weird that it was dropped later on tho, particularly in Breezy when Finn just goes around trying to get with any random princess.
At no point in that episode anyone mentions Finn's age or any particular age difference.
Yeah thats cause they had no consistent writers, so if one didn't care they could get by with an episode or two. Especially if they framed it as them trauma dumping via self inserting on Finn like that episode was.
Also no one likes that episode really anyway.
>The show did a ton of heavy lifting in order to suppress Finn and PB shipping in order to achieve Bubbline after the first couple of seasons set up Fubble as endgame
By the end of season 3 Finn's obsession with PB was reaching such critical mass I've no idea how anyone could have looked at it and thought it still needed to happen.
>first two seasons
>heavy Pen oversight
>PB and Finn cute together
>end on Fubblegum canon
>third season starts
>Pen stopped meddling in episodes
>PB aged up immediately
>Sugar inserted Bubbline
>Fubble smear campaign started
Everything tracks
You hate to see it.
Speaking of that, I must admit I'm not a fan of over half the characters being revealed to be 1000 years old. It's kind moronic tbh.
Pen stopped meddling as much in the storyboarding process, like inserting his own visual gags/jokes and stuff. He still ultimately decided what story outlines what got turned into episodes and what didn't. It was his call to age PB up.
Works cited:
He was the showrunner dickhead. He said he stopped messing with boarders' work as much, he was still the guy in charge of the writers' room.
If one of the characters needs to be aged down for a ship to work then maybe it's not a good ship
This. Also if one of the characters needs to be aged up, for example retconning PB to be 800 so she could be with the thousand year old Marcy.
And I agree, PB was way over the age of consent anyway, if she wanted to get rawdogged by Marceline's huge futa wiener so much she could've just asked
Pen was involved in writing and storyboards until the finale
He said he gradually stopped interfering and rewriting other storyboarders/writers work after S2 because it made him feel guilty
and then you wonder why the only people still hung up on Finn x PB are bitter virgins from Cinemaphile.org/co/
Actually most people liked them together, they were kind of a thing when the show was at peak popularity. I guess they're just not the autistic fanfic tumblrtard types.
>most people liked it and then moved on once they saw Finn and PB were never going to work out as a couple
then why can't your b***h ass do the same, brother? beggin ya to stop being a bitter little b***h
>then why can't your b***h ass do the same, brother?
What do you mean? I liked Adventure Time and I'm in a thread discussing it. I've never been an active Finn/Bubblegum shipper.
Arn Anderson?
I'm drunk, brother
Pic related is me when I see a Finn x PB shipper
You get bodied?.
nah you are
So salty, try being sweet some time
I have diabetes
huh wat u mean
you tell me
Peak popularity was when it was Finn and FP, no question. Both are trash ships anyway, right where they belong in the fricking garbage.
It's not that surprising, Princess Bubblegum as a whole character was sabotaged pretty hard early on.
Its pretty interesting to think theyve gone the route of making unecessary drama because "finn is le heccking moronic you know!" instead of going the obvious route that shes literally made of fire and they can't really be together
The people making the show were projecting like mad. You can be absolutely certain the ones who wrote that specific episode did the exact same awful shit IRL and were trying to lessen their feelings of guilt.
Aka self-teraphy
This thread got me to rewatch some of her early episodes, I’d forgotten what a raging lunatic she was early on. Wish they’d leaned into her being villainous more and used that as the impetus for them breaking up. Or just kept it as part of her character in general. That’s an aspect of her that seems fun to work with.
Are there any shows that do shipping without fricking it up?
Nope, as its impossible to not frick up
Then why shouldn't I kill myself
If nothing is going to give me what I want, what's the point in living
Was this pic made with AI?
No it's old. The artist's work is nuked and lost. Etherpendant was their name.
I didn't drop the show because of it, but it was a pretty mortal blow to my interest in it; I thought the stuff with Martin and the beginning of Season 6 was great enough to curb the sting of Frost & Fire but then Breezy happened and by that point I was so done I only ended up finishing the season and didn't bother beyond that. While I kinda agree that it adds an interesting dimension to Finn's character in the immediately following episodes (even if they're painful to watch) such terribly executed relationship drama is only fit for the most rotten fujoshi fanfiction.
Adventiure Time just started to plain suck going into Season 5, I think it started to lose most of its audience around there.
Copypasta'd from another thread:
Bubbline took over the fandom like cane toads took over Australia. Like almost every idea later Adventure Time had, Bubbline is a betrayal of the original spirit of Adventure Time that was an unapologetic indulgence in a male fantasy with a unique, quirky flair. And funny enough that kind of fantasy is even more appealing to most girls than the tumblr shit is, since it was also rooted in the chivalrous male protector instinct. Almost nobody in the original fandom liked that Finn's love interests turned gay, even worse that they stopped being as cool with him as they used to be. Adventure Time in its early days was fricking massive. Now it's decently popular, but nowhere near its old popularity and prestige. There's a reason why Adventure Time isn't looked back on fondly by most people, and it's 1/10th as popular as it used to be. Those loud tumblr shippers that the crew started raping the show to cater to didn't really represent Adventure Time's audience.
Both.
It was just a stupid episode that threw all their development out the window in 15 minutes.
But we still got Huntress Wizard.
Too underdeveloped to truly matter
To think she appeared as early as season 3, the staff really sat on their asses wasting time instead of focusing on what truly matters.
What about her. The show is already over.
I remember when an anon posted a bunch of reasons for Finn and HW coming together and how it tied together nicely with the ending song, but I was an idiot and didn't save the image. Does anyone have it?
why not try finding at tbharchive?
I'm such an idiot, I completely forgot about that, thank you. I found a bunch of mentions from around 2019 and the image I was looking for.
FP was fun, had a bunch of cool powers, and her being vaguely evil as well as a walking cataclysm made for good tension and interesting dyimaics with both finn and PB. The way they wasted such a cool character is truly mind boggling
Please post more cute FP art
It's mostly the assassination of Finnish heroic heart of gold. Just killed the vibe of the show.
Both.
The latter. Even as a teenager I could tell it was cop out writing used to maintain the status quo and basically meant all that writing was for nothing.
Finn will never let it down.
>if there was someone out there that loved you
Like half of the princesses of Ooo as it was shown by Breezy?
Introducing flame princess was IMO in itself the the biggest mistake the show has done at that point.
All this talk about love as an uncontrollable destructive force that hurts people really reinforces my strong hunch that none of the people behind AT have healthy ideas about relationships and romance. Jesus that's a fricking bleak perspective
Well, not all love. Just flame princess and betty.
>Well, not all love. Just flame princess and betty.
Bubbline is pretty unhealthy when taken in the grand scale of the show and both characters' development, it's just stable. The whole "hard meat don't get eat" schtick that prevented HW and Finn from getting together was also a writer self inserting about their romantic struggles
The mistake was how they broke up
All of this only for her to be sent into the background while singing unfunny raps, lol
Entering Finn's One True Wife
Finn should have pick with her instead.
It wasn’t Finn’s fault. Cosmic Owl dreams are fated to come true no matter what.
what if pb stayed 13 and grew up with finn. is there anything like that i can read anywhere i am begging you
There's probably something here for you:
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/FanficRecs/AdventureTime
Finn would've become a prince i assume.
I don't know if they could procreate.
The same thing could've said about retconning PB into some 800y/o immortal so she could conveniently be shipped with Marceline, frick FP's whole existence comes from the writers' regret after they aged PB back to 18
Oops wrong quote, meant to
What kind of disoder does Finn, Phoebe, and Ice King have?
Have y'all ever had Turkey before?
>Were there that many Finn/FP shippers or was it just so badly written it assassinated Finn's character?
Both. The relationship wasn't great, but it was cute, and quite a lot had gone into building it up. They'd shown Finn crying himself to sleep because he was terrified of dying alone for pity's sake.
But even if you put the relationship aside, it was just a sickeningly badly-written episode. All of a sudden Finn is the sort of creep that will trick his girlfriend into beating up a guy he know has magic-induced-mental-illness, in order to get his rocks off? Seriously? I mean teenagers do some nasty shit sometimes, sure, but that's the fantasy equivalent of repeatedly tricking your girlfriend into pepper-spraying an old homeless dude with dementia. What the almighty frick.
I won't say it's the worst-written episode out there, because shit like SvTfoE's "Cleaved" and Voltron's "The End Is the Beginning" exist, but it's fricking up there.
>2 of the few episodes to break 3 million views feature Flame Princess
>Not a single episode in season 5 dipped below 2 million views until after this episode aired
Something tells me removing a dynamic people wanted more of and replacing it Finn crying a lot might have been a dumb idea
we care too
Are we just gonna to pretend that?
Airplanes in the night sky
are like shootin' stars
I could really use a wish right now wish right now wish right now
What were they thinking making that episode?
They were trying to make Finn more simpatetic.
Wait a minute......
FP x Finn seggs =
I "dropped" it about here too. I pop my head in now and then. Watched the far lands, watched Fiona and cake, that's about it. It'll didn't ship Finn with anyone, but I did like him. As a young boy, I sort of admired him. He was a rough and tough adventurer who lied beating up bad guys and having fun and saving people, but he was still a kid and had his limits. Then more and more episodes start shitting on him, and then this episode happens and completely kills his character. It was enough.
I mostly dropped the show when they brought Betty into Ooo, the episdoe was just called Betty, but I still caught up with it every now and then out of fascination with the show I used to liked, and seeing how far in the wrong direction they can steer the ship. Turns out it's pretty damn far. Holly Jolly Secrets made it pretty clear Betty was just backstory for Simon, she was someone who stopped loving him after he said the wrong thing or acted the same way. Basically just a shallow normalgay that abandoned Simon when something strange and supernatural happened to him, and in Simon's madness, since he obviously did love her, that sparked his obsession and need to be loved by a "princess". Betty never needed to appear. And when they did they changed what was implied about her in Holly Jolly Secrets, retconning her into the biggest Mary Sue I've ever seen in animation. Boring, obnoxious character from the very start of her real appearances. Cheapened Ice King's backstory, ultimately ruining him by just turning him back into Simon and using that in Fionna and Cake to fuel their strange fascination for "dude uhm what if like this epic fantasy land was like just fricking depressing and disgusting and vulgar and unlikable wouldn't that be so deep and interesting"
I get the idea of bringing back Betty and making her super obsessed and loyal to Simon even though that's a massive retcon that destroys Ice King's whole backstory from Holly Jolly Secrets. "Simon is a great guy, he deserves a girl that loves him no matter what!" Yeah sure, he does, but that doesn't mean he gets it. He didn't deserve anything that happened to him, that's what made him an interesting tragic villain. And by not over-focusing on that like the later seasons did, he could still be a fun crazy cartoonish villain ice wizard too.
Plus more of a minor nitpick, but when the Ice King's crown lost its magic in that episode he should have either stayed Ice King and done the "I'm getting saner and remembering some stuff but I'm also dying soon" plot, or just rapidly turned to dust like The Winter King did. It made no sense for him to completely de-age back into normal Simon.
Simon is like the Skull Kid and his crown is like Majora's Mask. The crown is an interesting thing, Simon is a minor entity, but they're unparalleled kino when they're combined. I was disappointed that Betty turned into a god of chaos to kill off Ice King.
How does Pen feel about all of this?
Probably tries not to think about it. He was pretty much ousted from his own show from how insufferable his staff ended up being but he still does voices for it.
Judging from how the Midnight Gospel turned out, I'd say it hit him hard.
I'm glad later on she got mostly ignored by the writers, even IK got his revenge on this c**t
Do you think FP ever apologized for beating up a senile old man for being mean to her or is it ok because Finn convinced her to do it
Well Finn apologized and welcomed him to his house until the Ice Kingdom was rebuilt, however judging by the scene IK still hated her even knowing it was Finn's fault so it's easy to assume she never apologized to him
>judging by the scene IK still hated her
He only did that because Patience told him to kidnap the other elementals iirc
I know, the usual princess kidnapping isn't what I'm talking about but rather how he does it I mean just look at his face lol he's angry and mocks her if I'm not miss-remembering
>takes this firebitch, this is for burning down my kingdom and never apologizing and also for ruining the show with your cringe relationship melodrama, you're not even worthy enough for my daily kidnappings
Dropped like a hot potato