The fight is actually fun, it reminds me a lot of the earlier tournament fights in how silly it is and how Gotenks is pulling out all these strange unique moves. My only real issue with it is that it doesn't gel with Buu having just killed gotenks mom and everyone else in the world. He also should have gotten serious once he went ss3 and buu had killed all his other friends, but he's still fricking around. His fight is more entertaining than Gohans though
I think GT had more good ideas than it gets credit for, but it made huge mistakes.
Turning Goku into a kid was just a bad idea. Trunks should have been the protagonist going on an adventure with Pan, maybe Bulla and Uub too. Goku, Gohan, Vegeta, and Piccolo, and all of them could have been far away from the action and only showing up for certain episodes the way Bulma, Roshi, and Oolong got sidelined in Z.
The series also shouldn't have been completely episodic or saga focused, it should have tried to find a compromise between them. Adventures are fun. The feeling of wasting time in a series known for sagas doesn't work too well.
No one wants to revisit GT but it could have survived if it had better people on it.
i'm gonna go out on what's probably a very America-centric limb and say that i couldn't rank Dragon Ball against anything that came after it. DBZ and GT both aired here with rescored soundtracks that created completely different experiences than what Dragon Ball curated. Dragon Ball didn't even feel like a show from the same series aside from the obvious stuff like the characters, and plot elements like the Dragon Balls. the tone, soundtrack, and battle composition were completely different. i respect Dragon Ball and understand why it's well liked, it's just not for me.
for a similar reason, my rankings would be-
DBZ > Grand Tour > Super
because that's effectively a list of what "feels the most like Dragon Ball Z" to me, in descending order. and even then i sincerely believe that SDBH makes better use of everything introduced by Super than Super does, particularly the multiverse concept, because characters like Trunks, Zamasu, Goku Black, Hit, Jiren, and the U6 Saiyans actually continue to exist and threaten the heroes beyond their isolated, consequence free little DBS arcs. characters like Kabba and Hearts weren't one and done villains of the week.
I only watched Cell saga and I liked it the most
Tried to rewatch as an adult. MAN big mistake. Kinda sad you guys didn't grow out of fricking Dragonball. >Lowest Common Denominator: The Cartoon
Still Cell Saga is really good when you're 14.
Yes it's bad. Even something universally acclaimed like Cowboy Bebop has a lot of visible roughness, has the same static scenes of minimal animation. I can see why it didn't catch on here when Disney was running the animation industry. Now though...
Though when anime does it right
DBZ fight scene >2 frames of teleportation
Dragonball fight scene >SOUL
it does it right. It's too bad it can't keep this level of quality up for more than a few minutes.
Fair enough. So then, grow out of Dragon Ball and grow into... what? The Witcher? The Boys? Masters of the Universe: Revelation? What are you replacing Dragon Ball with?
Oh God that animation. Jesus.
I watch critically acclaimed dramas and the occasional movie. Sometimes I'll watch an anime for some time, rarely will I finish.
Well it is filler, a lot of Toei filler. If you don't like that, which is fair, just read the manga. If not, you can watch snippets of parts you remember instead
The Buu saga was Toriyama's resignation letter.
Content to the fact that the pressure wouldn't allow him to quit, he parodied his own work until the editors finally got the hint and let him wrap things up.
Frieza saga was the end of the passion, Cell saga was the end of the quality.
Majin Buu saga was the scribblings of an artist on his last legs of patience, phoning it up before he threw in the towel. The art itself began to degrade due to Toriyama starting to even neglect that much. Liking the Buu saga is fine, but it did not have any leg up over Cell saga. It was clear by Toriyama's own words that he was out of steam by then and it showed with how disjointed everything was. All those Buu forms burnt him out so hard, he gave up illustrating battle manga forever
>Im mad he's become a gag character, at least in Buu we has gag/KINO. Now he's LE FATCRINGE
That was bullshit. It was bad enough when he fought Beerus. We didn't even get to see SSJ3 Gotenks. He had some funny dialogue with Beerus that went back and forth, but we didn't see any new Gotenks moves. That would have been awesome to see him pull some new creative shit on the destruction god, but no. Gotenks got fricking spanked and wrist slapped
New Super Hero? Any new moves? No, he's in his fat gag form and didn't do shit. Shafted again, plus in Daima, he won't even get to appear at all because Goten and Trunks are babies again
I thought Toriyama really liked Gotenks? Why's he keep fricking him over?
>Toriyama likes Gotenks
unfortunately this gag horseshit is probably why Toriyama likes Gotenks. they give him an excuse to do silly wacky gag manga shit in the middle of all the obligatory shonen action.
>they give him an excuse to do silly wacky gag manga shit in the middle of all the obligatory shonen action.
Yeah, that's exactly why he likes Gotenks. Toriyama said the Gotenks fight against Buu was one of his favorites in the whole manga. By that point in the Majin Buu saga, Toriyama was pretty much begging for death. He did not want to draw or write Dragon Ball anymore. Toriyama was content drawing slice of life Gohan until he was forced to return to drawing tournament fighting by his editors
To keep himself sane, Toriyama went bonkers with the gag fighting with Gotenks vs Majin Buu in the Chamber of Spirit and Time. He was able to draw them doing absolute nonsense in a closed off area, completely away from everyone else. He even had Piccolo Jr, one of his other favorite characters who he didn't really get a chance to ever do anything with anymore, go inside the chamber with Gotenks too, to observe all the antics going on, playing volleyball with Gotenks and other ridiculousness
Once the Gotenks fight was over in Majin Buu saga, the man was honestly done. He was mentally spent and blew his last load with all those Gotenks panels. By that point, the reader might as well just put the manga down because there's nothing left of worth to read
>By that point, the reader might as well just put the manga down because there's nothing left of worth to read
Nah the kid buu portion is the best part of the saga, if anything it's like toriyama finally woke up and put effort it when he knew he had to wrap it up
Kid Buu segment was all over the place. What part of it really stood out to you? The fights? I didn't think they were all that great. It got split between Kid decimating Bejita, pulverizing Fat Buu, then SSJ3 Goku just trying to survive and then running out of steam. The anime had to pad it out with an extended Goku fight. Kid was definitely my favorite Buu form though
5 months ago
Anonymous
I like that it at least utilized all of the characters to take down buu, and for me it feels like a throwback to the earlier fights of the series where it was more about gradually wearing down a villian rather than just pulling out new transformations. Goku ultimately burns himself out with ss3 which reminds me alot of how kaioken would often be used. Then vegeta gets to be useful by putting forth the plan to wish back earth and get goku to do the spirit bomb. Even Mr satan gets involved because the earthlings don't want to give energy until he comes in to tell them he's fighting buu. And Vegeta and Fat buu are pretty much just doing their best to hold off kid buu while all of this is going on.
You are probably right that the actual fighting is nothing too special but I appreciate that all the characters unique personalities and skills were used well. My favorite fight in the series is the saiyan saga vegeta fight so I think I just like these group sort of encounters better.
>yfw the entire first fight between Buu and Gotenks is anime-only filler and their first and only fight was in the Time Chamber
the anime production team really hard carried Toriyama.
Kai was the first of many blows that broke my frickin' spirit. recasting iconic voice roles like Teen Gohan/Kid Goku was ass, the retouched footage looks worse than the original by miles, just a complete waste of time and money. i wouldn't trust modern Toei/Shueisha to remake DBZ properly, they can't animate for shit anymore. last thing they did that was spectacular was the Super Broly movie - and it probably had the budget of 3 Seasons of Attack on Titan to burn on an hour-fourty-five of animation. Dragon Ball Babies looks well animated and is a better rendition of Toriyama's art style than Super was, but who fricking cares. at least Superku's childish ass mental won't feel as alien in a kid sized body.
Get over it. God is canon and is the better transformation than some kid homosexual spinning a stone wheel in a circle while looking at the moon just to turn into a half adult man, half ape with pink fur and red eyeliner. Funny how they tried to add onto a concept that Toriyama literally dropped at the beginning of Z just for the talentless hacks at Toei to shorhorn half ass ideas into GT that don't even make any sense.
>continuing the tradition of having a transformation that's reminiscent to the iconic designs people love is a bad thing >consistency is le bad >but a wacky design with a lazy conception is le good just because it's different.
Clearly you dont know what kaioken looks like then.
5 months ago
Anonymous
I think it looks pretty similar man
5 months ago
Anonymous
You would think that based on your cherrypicked image. Also that's Super Kaioken.
5 months ago
Anonymous
Doesn't change the fact the transformation designs in Super are lazy
5 months ago
Anonymous
Calling them lazy is like calling SSJ lazy just because his hair is just spiky and blonde.
5 months ago
Anonymous
It's lazy because it's just a color palette swap of SSJ1 which WAS a cool and original design at conception
5 months ago
Anonymous
>It's lazy because it's just a color palette swap of SSJ1 which WAS a cool and original design at conception
okay and all the new transformations are more or less and extension of that and yet you're complaining.
5 months ago
Anonymous
>more or less and extension of that
In the laziest possible way, I'd prefer something more daring even at the risk of falling flat
5 months ago
Anonymous
>SSJ hair different >SSJ2 hair different >SSJ3 hair different >SSJ4 everything different
compared to
>Same hair different color >Same hair different aura >Same hair different color >Same hair different color >Same character different color
5 months ago
Anonymous
SSJ2 is the same fricking thing as SSJ but with lightning and yet you don't b***h about that. I swear y'all are hypocritical morons.
5 months ago
Anonymous
"Y'all" don't belong here. Are you lost? Black person or spic?
5 months ago
Anonymous
post height and jaw
5 months ago
Anonymous
SSJ was "lazy" because Toryama's assistant was tired of coloring his hair in black.
5 months ago
Anonymous
whenever they try to do something out of the ordinary, it ends up being shit. SSJ3 is the ugliest transformation of all time and it's drastically different than the previous forms.
>Sayians turn into huge monkeys
They haven't done that shit since the beginning of Z. Randomly bringing it back in a strange way is not inherently good.
>God is canon and is the better transformation
not it's not literally just SSJ with red/blue/white hair. At least SSJ4 is creative
God lost any chance it had at becoming meaningful or iconic when every character in the show started getting unique chromatic transformations. Goku and Gohan are Blanco, Vegeta is Purple, Goku and Vegeta can both turn Red and Blue, Piccolo is Orange, Freeza is Gold and Black, Cell Max was more or less just a big Red 2nd Form Cell, etc.
because there's nothing wrong with the designs themselves. Some people just have weird expectations to what a transformation should be in their dumb headcanon even though they don't actually know what they want.
Gt mogs shitty ass super, get over it homosexual. Couldn't get past like 2 sagas of super just because it's moronic and the same thing over and over again. Literally just dbz but they keep going higher and higher powerlevels instead of just letting it end
>Gt mogs shitty ass super, get over it homosexual.
Yeah if you're a contrarian. Also what exactly is there to get over? GT is not canon and Super is still relevant. It is UNIVERSALLY agreed by most people that Super is the better series and there's nothing you can do to change that so If anything, YOU should get over it.
>it's Canon
Yep, you're a homosexual lol. You realize it doesn't exist right? Super being Canon doesn't matter, since none of its real moron. Anyways, only brain dead morons watch super, so of course they're going to think it's better than gt. DragonBall ended 20 years ago and should've stayed that way, super is an embarrassment. DragonBall is a product of its time, and continuing it this day in age is cringe
First of all you're illiterate. Also >DragonBall ended 20 years ago
It ended in the 90's, moron. 20 years ago, we were only getting OVAs and TV specials.
5 months ago
Anonymous
Illiterate? I skimmed your reply because I don't care what you think very much lol. Enjoy watching your cashgrab series DBZ+ LOL
Shut up superspic. Deviant art colored hair is moronic. Super sucks. It's bad and only wienerroach human beings enjoy it. Everything about it is a downgrade.
Animation. Tone. Atmosphere. Designs. Everyone is slimmer. I'd even say character assassination. Tournament of power is wasted potential. Bringing back villains that should be dead and done.
That's why Daima will be the ressurrection of the franchise
Dragon Ball popularized the franchise
Z made it global and mainstream
GT killed the franchise
Super made it relevant again flawed and all
Daima will make it universally beloved
5 months ago
Anonymous
I don't see how deaging them and having them on a new planet is gonna resurrect the franchise. I'm glad the power pole will be added though.
5 months ago
Anonymous
I don't think Daima is going to bring much to the table, honestly. It looks more like Toei just letting Toriyama do something he'd like to do for a change, which likely will not involve much battle. It'll be more akin to early Dragon Ball, with a lot of gags, eating, more gags, more eating and that's about it. Now that isn't to say that's not entertaining. It is, but what Toriyama likes and what the fanbase he built up likes, changed quite some time ago, even during the manga's run. Fighting with increasing stakes is what the fanbase likes to see and that's just not what Toriyama wants to provide anymore
Toei seems more willing to produce Dragon Ball content readily now, so doubtful Daima will be the last thing we'll see for a long time. A little rest from all the battle might be a good thing, if only just so they have enough time to think up some engaging battles after the Tournament of Power
5 months ago
Anonymous
They can't really do much in 20 episodes tbh
Maybe it's just a way to canonize SS4
At least it's a seasonal thing, hopefully the going forward it's more of a seasonal thing instead of weekly
Cell was a lazy copypasta villain. Buu was a clever deconstruction of Goku's childlike love of fighting and the violent tendencies of the Saiyan race. Except a 350 hour video essay exploring this in detail.
Gotenks is arguably the worst and most pointless character ever introduced in Z >Goku fights Fat Buu >reveals his new transformation which is SSJ3 >still can't win >decides Goten and Trunks can do the job with fusion >already doesn't make any sense because if SSJ3 Goku cannot beat Buu, why in the frick would the combined power of Goten and trunks be able to beat him? >10 episodes of fusion shenanigans later we finally get Gotenks >spoiler alert... He's obnoxious as shit >He now has to face Super Buu who is even more powerful than fat Buu >next couple episodes is just moron Gotenks showcasing his stupid abilities >GALACTIC DONUT!! >SUPER GHOST KAMIKAZE ATTACK!! >among other filler >they end up getting stuck in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber >the only way to escape it is to scream your head off until a portal appears >they leave >Buu survives >the plot continues >Gotenks becomes irrelevant after that
His whole introduction and what he would end up accomplishing (which was nothing) served literally no purpose. Just a waste of time for everyone. A moronic gag character who from start to finish never did anything cool or to justify his existence. He's even more of a shit character as you grow older because you can really see how truly unfunny and stupid he is without the nostalgia goggles that kept moronic kids from seeing how uncool he actually is.
I dont get the hate on super
Whis and beerus are probably the best comic relief in any saga ntm they are downright cool in design, powers and muh deepest lore and intent of creator
shame the new series wont continue with it but im loving the manga
>I dont get the hate on super
It's just selected hate amplified by the small community of anons on an imageboard. Most people like it. >shame the new series wont continue with it but im loving the manga
The new show will improve upon the lore. Super was nothing more than rehashes of Z. Plus Toriyama has complete creative control now.
Is this bait? Beerus and Whis are part of the problem because they can deus ex machina the cast out of any situation. If anyone could land a hit on Whis, the wrath of the Omni King, the Grand Priest, and all the other Angels would probably smite them hard enough to expunge them from the whole timeline. If Goku hadn't killed Moro after what happened with Merus I'm 95% sure the Grand Priest would've smoked his ass as soon as Whis reported back, and that 5% doubt is only cause Merus chose to jump in and start hitting dudes as opposed to being jumped.
I don't get it. So you're telling me the morons who watch Dragon Ball Super voted that the most moronic characters to ever be added to Dragon Ball are good? Why should I trust Dragon Ball Super fans?
They're not fundamentally bad characters, but their function within the story and setting ruins any sort of dramatic tension or danger the story might otherwise present. Even if they wrote in something about the timeline fluctuating and created some semblance of disbelief that they might overwrite the original End of Z canon with something new, they still have to write an excuse every arc as to why Beerus and Whis can't be the team safety net.
>ruins any sort of dramatic tension or danger the story might otherwise present
I think the Tournament of Power tried to help in this regard, though it came far too late to repair all the damage Whis and Beerus did. Even they were helpless to oppose Zen-Oh when it came time to delete whole universes. As you said, if the heroes have characters that powerful around, it nullifies any sort of threat to them, unless it is Zen-Oh, in which case nothing can save them
If Toei wants to seriously keep Whis and Beerus around, they need to figure out how to do it that won't impede on the story's tension, but I don't really see how that can be done since they are always around on Earth now, eating or whatever else
>goku becomes a super saiyan after seeing his best friend die thinking he can't be revived >vegeta becomes super sayjian out of pure spite/pride >future trunks cause he'd seen some shit >gohan after years of training specifically to become a super sayaman manages to do it with the help of his dad >goten and shit trunks do it in the forest because toriyama is a moron
The Android Saga leading into and connecting with the Cell saga were awesome. That's still my favorite time.
There are so many twists and turns and power level increases, I love it.
The point when part of the crew is trying to figure out what Cell is and chasing down this mysterious killer is excellent. Paired with the others fighting androids and struggling is great A & B storylines.
Later on when they all have to train for the Tournament and we see all of the different training styles is so cool.
What should have happened in Super is that Goten and Trunks are only Z fighters left because Goku and Vegeta died. That would have fixed the power scaling homosexualry and give us some Goten Trunks exploration kino.
Buu saga was Toriyama just having fun because he thought it was the ending of the series. The power levels get ridiculous and every rule of the universe gets broken.
Super Saiyan 4 vs UI -Sign- (if you set the visual designs aside) comes down almost entirely to the setup and in-universe audience. if you drop the UI -Sign- transformation into the Baby Saga and just have King Kai, the Supreme Kai, Old Kai, Pan, Piccolo, and Gohan going "WOOOAH" it's not gonna illicit the same emotional reaction. if Goku had transformed into a Super Saiyan 4 infront of two Omni-Kings, multiple Gods of Destruction, the Grand Priest, all the remaining Angels, and the multiversal tournament competitors and had everyone shitting bricks, it would have blown a hole in the atmosphere above Mexico. latinos would've been painting themselves Red the next day in the streets. lmao
You're shit makes no sense. Why the frick would SSJ3 be stronger than SSJ4 and in what reality would pseudo UI be weaker than 3 and 4.
it's not a power level tier list, it's a tier list for the reveal of each form.
>ruins any sort of dramatic tension or danger the story might otherwise present
I think the Tournament of Power tried to help in this regard, though it came far too late to repair all the damage Whis and Beerus did. Even they were helpless to oppose Zen-Oh when it came time to delete whole universes. As you said, if the heroes have characters that powerful around, it nullifies any sort of threat to them, unless it is Zen-Oh, in which case nothing can save them
If Toei wants to seriously keep Whis and Beerus around, they need to figure out how to do it that won't impede on the story's tension, but I don't really see how that can be done since they are always around on Earth now, eating or whatever else
i agree, i think the Tournament of Power took a big creative swing at inception to try and shake up their Beerus safety net situation. one of, well i don't know if you'd call it a strength necessarily, but one of the things i appreciated i guess about DBZ and GT was that even the Kais and King Yemma who were supposed to be top tier shot callers could be threatened by a villain. Z Broly destroyed an entire galaxy and had its attending Kai fleeing for his fricking life. that was back when the stakes were "if Goku and the team can't stop this villain, there'll be nothing to stop them from killing everyone in the universe full stop. Super isn't like that though. even if Black Freeza showed up to Beerus' planet and started trying to kill Goku and Vegeta, Beerus could one-shot him for fricking up his lawn and attacking Saiyans he's taken a personal interest in and it would be 1000% believable based on the precedents set by this story and the state of the setting. it fricking bites.
You're grasping. That is atrocious and everything wrong with fanfiction. If you find that more visually striking then you have the mind of a 8 year old.
That's literally how Toriyama draws him now. The reason why fat stubby Goku doesn't exist anymore is because of him AND because it's harder to animate.
You don't understand. Animating different looking Gokus would cost too much money. The Je-I mean Japanese rather have different easy to switch colors instead of actual unique designs.
SSJ2 is the same fricking thing as SSJ but with lightning and yet you don't b***h about that. I swear y'all are hypocritical morons.
Dishonest. Lying about shit wont make Super a better show
I'd say Jr is more punished than Bejita and it has been like that for a very long time. He went from the most dangerous demonic fighter that nearly killed Goku, to the babysitter
>Why do that, make an inferior version of thing?
this applies to literally every arc, movie, transformation, character etc in super
its all been done already in z
the latest dogshit gohan/cell movie is a prime example >hey remember ssj2 vs cell? well here have it again except its not foreshadowed or earned by any training and you get to see it in disgusting japslop 3D CGI
5 months ago
Anonymous
It is very difficult, if not impossible, to defend the sloppy not-SSJ2 Gohan VS Cell Max theme in Super Hero. They copied that old fight nearly beat for beat. It is very much just there for pandering instead of bringing something fresh to the table to enjoy. I'd have liked to see a proper Gotenks fight against Cell Max than what we actually got. I never saw adult Gotenks in a fight before, so that would have been new, at least
5 months ago
Anonymous
>making his hair ridiculously big for nostalgia
Yeah his hair is ridiculous I was just about to comment on
>Why do that, make an inferior version of thing?
this applies to literally every arc, movie, transformation, character etc in super
its all been done already in z
the latest dogshit gohan/cell movie is a prime example >hey remember ssj2 vs cell? well here have it again except its not foreshadowed or earned by any training and you get to see it in disgusting japslop 3D CGI
about it. They have no shame because they know people will eat this BS up. It's funny how DB is still beloved while Star Wars is getting a shit ton of hate- I guess they don't attack their fans, but still that Cell max movie was horrible.
5 months ago
Anonymous
>It's funny how DB is still beloved while Star Wars is getting a shit ton of hate- I guess they don't attack their fans, but still that Cell max movie was horrible.
Yeah, not directly spiting and hating their own fans helps for sure. Making some attempt to give their fans things they think they'd want also helps. Disney on the other hand, goes out of its way to give fans exactly what they don't want. Not out of neglect or ignorance, but on purpose, to push The Message
Dragon Ball definitely has a lot of empty pandering and lazy writing, but that's preferable to having a kosher narrative constantly jammed into the product, to the point where it completely overtakes the product and becomes the product itself
That is true, he doesn't exist anymore. He stopped being Jr a rather long time ago. What he is now is an entirely different character that just looks like him and that makes me sad
>ultra instinct is just white hair and retconned to being just another transformation despite being foreshadowed as specifically something that trumps all transformations because its a state of mind that transcends power levels etc >meanwhile ssj4 directly links back to the first transformation saiyans had that was actually literally thrown away by goku and vegeta because of its links to their evil history, which they finally confront head on and return to so that they may utilise its abilities and their own heritage
if anyone still prefers ultra instinct or blue hair super saiyan you can just stop talking to them because they are not the same species as you
bonus round: >goku slowly builds ultra instinct the whole arc, complete with new hair and aura >after getting tossed around, jiren screams once and gets the exact same brand new aura thats only used for ultra instinct >but its not ultra instinct hes just mad now
just horrible
middle school is thinking buu saga is best
adulthood is thinking saiyan saga is best
The fight is actually fun, it reminds me a lot of the earlier tournament fights in how silly it is and how Gotenks is pulling out all these strange unique moves. My only real issue with it is that it doesn't gel with Buu having just killed gotenks mom and everyone else in the world. He also should have gotten serious once he went ss3 and buu had killed all his other friends, but he's still fricking around. His fight is more entertaining than Gohans though
Dragon Ball > Dragon Ball GT > Dragon Ball Z > Dragon Ball Super
I think GT had more good ideas than it gets credit for, but it made huge mistakes.
Turning Goku into a kid was just a bad idea. Trunks should have been the protagonist going on an adventure with Pan, maybe Bulla and Uub too. Goku, Gohan, Vegeta, and Piccolo, and all of them could have been far away from the action and only showing up for certain episodes the way Bulma, Roshi, and Oolong got sidelined in Z.
The series also shouldn't have been completely episodic or saga focused, it should have tried to find a compromise between them. Adventures are fun. The feeling of wasting time in a series known for sagas doesn't work too well.
No one wants to revisit GT but it could have survived if it had better people on it.
BASED
Though I will rank the frieza saga in isolation above GT
i swear GT gays are like the dark souls 2 homosexuals of DB
DS2 is the greatest DS game tho.
i'm gonna go out on what's probably a very America-centric limb and say that i couldn't rank Dragon Ball against anything that came after it. DBZ and GT both aired here with rescored soundtracks that created completely different experiences than what Dragon Ball curated. Dragon Ball didn't even feel like a show from the same series aside from the obvious stuff like the characters, and plot elements like the Dragon Balls. the tone, soundtrack, and battle composition were completely different. i respect Dragon Ball and understand why it's well liked, it's just not for me.
for a similar reason, my rankings would be-
DBZ > Grand Tour > Super
because that's effectively a list of what "feels the most like Dragon Ball Z" to me, in descending order. and even then i sincerely believe that SDBH makes better use of everything introduced by Super than Super does, particularly the multiverse concept, because characters like Trunks, Zamasu, Goku Black, Hit, Jiren, and the U6 Saiyans actually continue to exist and threaten the heroes beyond their isolated, consequence free little DBS arcs. characters like Kabba and Hearts weren't one and done villains of the week.
I only watched Cell saga and I liked it the most
Tried to rewatch as an adult. MAN big mistake. Kinda sad you guys didn't grow out of fricking Dragonball.
>Lowest Common Denominator: The Cartoon
Still Cell Saga is really good when you're 14.
Long running anime as an adult is a mistake
You see all the flaws, the pacing, the animation, the still screens with moving mouths, awful experience
Yes it's bad. Even something universally acclaimed like Cowboy Bebop has a lot of visible roughness, has the same static scenes of minimal animation. I can see why it didn't catch on here when Disney was running the animation industry. Now though...
Though when anime does it right
it does it right. It's too bad it can't keep this level of quality up for more than a few minutes.
Fair enough. So then, grow out of Dragon Ball and grow into... what? The Witcher? The Boys? Masters of the Universe: Revelation? What are you replacing Dragon Ball with?
Oh God that animation. Jesus.
I watch critically acclaimed dramas and the occasional movie. Sometimes I'll watch an anime for some time, rarely will I finish.
You grow out of it at 15 and then grow back into it at 30. That's just how it works.
I'm 38 and it doesn't hit the same. Maybe I waited too long.
Fricking Cell saga feels like 90pc filler.
Well it is filler, a lot of Toei filler. If you don't like that, which is fair, just read the manga. If not, you can watch snippets of parts you remember instead
?si=WUD8U_58nBGPUkCa
>*makes little kids, including his kids, fight the ultimate evil multiple times*
The Buu saga was Toriyama's resignation letter.
Content to the fact that the pressure wouldn't allow him to quit, he parodied his own work until the editors finally got the hint and let him wrap things up.
Frieza saga was the end of the passion, Cell saga was the end of the quality.
DBZ fight scene
>2 frames of teleportation
Dragonball fight scene
>SOUL
Everything after Cell saga was pure fanfiction.
This is such a braindead and embarrassing npc take. Christ, you're such a fricking moron, lmao.
Buu had a lot more put into it than Cell.
Majin Buu saga was the scribblings of an artist on his last legs of patience, phoning it up before he threw in the towel. The art itself began to degrade due to Toriyama starting to even neglect that much. Liking the Buu saga is fine, but it did not have any leg up over Cell saga. It was clear by Toriyama's own words that he was out of steam by then and it showed with how disjointed everything was. All those Buu forms burnt him out so hard, he gave up illustrating battle manga forever
Oh my god the poor overworked millionaire.
No.
NOW HEAD BACK TO THE HALLS AND LEAVE THIS PLACE.
LAST WARNING.
Gotenks is the worst character in all of anime.
Im mad he's become a gag character, at least in Buu we has gag/KINO
Now he's LE FATCRINGE
>Im mad he's become a gag character, at least in Buu we has gag/KINO. Now he's LE FATCRINGE
That was bullshit. It was bad enough when he fought Beerus. We didn't even get to see SSJ3 Gotenks. He had some funny dialogue with Beerus that went back and forth, but we didn't see any new Gotenks moves. That would have been awesome to see him pull some new creative shit on the destruction god, but no. Gotenks got fricking spanked and wrist slapped
New Super Hero? Any new moves? No, he's in his fat gag form and didn't do shit. Shafted again, plus in Daima, he won't even get to appear at all because Goten and Trunks are babies again
I thought Toriyama really liked Gotenks? Why's he keep fricking him over?
>Toriyama likes Gotenks
unfortunately this gag horseshit is probably why Toriyama likes Gotenks. they give him an excuse to do silly wacky gag manga shit in the middle of all the obligatory shonen action.
>they give him an excuse to do silly wacky gag manga shit in the middle of all the obligatory shonen action.
Yeah, that's exactly why he likes Gotenks. Toriyama said the Gotenks fight against Buu was one of his favorites in the whole manga. By that point in the Majin Buu saga, Toriyama was pretty much begging for death. He did not want to draw or write Dragon Ball anymore. Toriyama was content drawing slice of life Gohan until he was forced to return to drawing tournament fighting by his editors
To keep himself sane, Toriyama went bonkers with the gag fighting with Gotenks vs Majin Buu in the Chamber of Spirit and Time. He was able to draw them doing absolute nonsense in a closed off area, completely away from everyone else. He even had Piccolo Jr, one of his other favorite characters who he didn't really get a chance to ever do anything with anymore, go inside the chamber with Gotenks too, to observe all the antics going on, playing volleyball with Gotenks and other ridiculousness
Once the Gotenks fight was over in Majin Buu saga, the man was honestly done. He was mentally spent and blew his last load with all those Gotenks panels. By that point, the reader might as well just put the manga down because there's nothing left of worth to read
NOOOOO THE POOR MILLION DOLLAR ARTIST IS FORCED TO DRAW DRAGON BALL CHARATERS AAHHHHH, MY SOUL WEEPS FOR THIS MAN
Get a job, you filthy NEET
>By that point, the reader might as well just put the manga down because there's nothing left of worth to read
Nah the kid buu portion is the best part of the saga, if anything it's like toriyama finally woke up and put effort it when he knew he had to wrap it up
Kid Buu segment was all over the place. What part of it really stood out to you? The fights? I didn't think they were all that great. It got split between Kid decimating Bejita, pulverizing Fat Buu, then SSJ3 Goku just trying to survive and then running out of steam. The anime had to pad it out with an extended Goku fight. Kid was definitely my favorite Buu form though
I like that it at least utilized all of the characters to take down buu, and for me it feels like a throwback to the earlier fights of the series where it was more about gradually wearing down a villian rather than just pulling out new transformations. Goku ultimately burns himself out with ss3 which reminds me alot of how kaioken would often be used. Then vegeta gets to be useful by putting forth the plan to wish back earth and get goku to do the spirit bomb. Even Mr satan gets involved because the earthlings don't want to give energy until he comes in to tell them he's fighting buu. And Vegeta and Fat buu are pretty much just doing their best to hold off kid buu while all of this is going on.
You are probably right that the actual fighting is nothing too special but I appreciate that all the characters unique personalities and skills were used well. My favorite fight in the series is the saiyan saga vegeta fight so I think I just like these group sort of encounters better.
>yfw the entire first fight between Buu and Gotenks is anime-only filler and their first and only fight was in the Time Chamber
the anime production team really hard carried Toriyama.
Toei needs to respect DBZ and fricking treat it like their GOD Franchise
DB + Z needs a big remake
>150 episodes of DB
>nearly 300 for Z
>Kai, the "shortened" Z is still 170 episodes
REMAKE THIS SHIT
Instead they don't give a frick about it, all the official releases are tainted with that shit green tint, none of the masters are good
frick
Kai was the first of many blows that broke my frickin' spirit. recasting iconic voice roles like Teen Gohan/Kid Goku was ass, the retouched footage looks worse than the original by miles, just a complete waste of time and money. i wouldn't trust modern Toei/Shueisha to remake DBZ properly, they can't animate for shit anymore. last thing they did that was spectacular was the Super Broly movie - and it probably had the budget of 3 Seasons of Attack on Titan to burn on an hour-fourty-five of animation. Dragon Ball Babies looks well animated and is a better rendition of Toriyama's art style than Super was, but who fricking cares. at least Superku's childish ass mental won't feel as alien in a kid sized body.
you do not want a newly drawn version of Dragon Ball right now, trust me.
>Taps deep into the lore of the saiyans (tail) to become stronger and evolve the super saiyan technique
based
>le god tapped power
cringe
Get over it. God is canon and is the better transformation than some kid homosexual spinning a stone wheel in a circle while looking at the moon just to turn into a half adult man, half ape with pink fur and red eyeliner. Funny how they tried to add onto a concept that Toriyama literally dropped at the beginning of Z just for the talentless hacks at Toei to shorhorn half ass ideas into GT that don't even make any sense.
>God is canon and is the better transformation
not it's not literally just SSJ with red/blue/white hair. At least SSJ4 is creative
>continuing the tradition of having a transformation that's reminiscent to the iconic designs people love is a bad thing
>consistency is le bad
>but a wacky design with a lazy conception is le good just because it's different.
>reminiscent to the iconic designs
is that what you call it? seems unoriginal to me. like a kaiko-ken reskin
Clearly you dont know what kaioken looks like then.
I think it looks pretty similar man
You would think that based on your cherrypicked image. Also that's Super Kaioken.
Doesn't change the fact the transformation designs in Super are lazy
Calling them lazy is like calling SSJ lazy just because his hair is just spiky and blonde.
It's lazy because it's just a color palette swap of SSJ1 which WAS a cool and original design at conception
>It's lazy because it's just a color palette swap of SSJ1 which WAS a cool and original design at conception
okay and all the new transformations are more or less and extension of that and yet you're complaining.
>more or less and extension of that
In the laziest possible way, I'd prefer something more daring even at the risk of falling flat
>SSJ hair different
>SSJ2 hair different
>SSJ3 hair different
>SSJ4 everything different
compared to
>Same hair different color
>Same hair different aura
>Same hair different color
>Same hair different color
>Same character different color
SSJ2 is the same fricking thing as SSJ but with lightning and yet you don't b***h about that. I swear y'all are hypocritical morons.
"Y'all" don't belong here. Are you lost? Black person or spic?
post height and jaw
SSJ was "lazy" because Toryama's assistant was tired of coloring his hair in black.
whenever they try to do something out of the ordinary, it ends up being shit. SSJ3 is the ugliest transformation of all time and it's drastically different than the previous forms.
SSJ3 is cool as frick dude
>Sayians turn into huge monkeys
>Incorporate that into future designs
WHAT THAT'S FRICKING moronic GOKU SHOULD JUST CHANGE COLORS
>Sayians turn into huge monkeys
They haven't done that shit since the beginning of Z. Randomly bringing it back in a strange way is not inherently good.
How many colors is it now
God lost any chance it had at becoming meaningful or iconic when every character in the show started getting unique chromatic transformations. Goku and Gohan are Blanco, Vegeta is Purple, Goku and Vegeta can both turn Red and Blue, Piccolo is Orange, Freeza is Gold and Black, Cell Max was more or less just a big Red 2nd Form Cell, etc.
Yea it's lazy and uninspired, I don't know why anyone would defend it so hard
because there's nothing wrong with the designs themselves. Some people just have weird expectations to what a transformation should be in their dumb headcanon even though they don't actually know what they want.
Gt mogs shitty ass super, get over it homosexual. Couldn't get past like 2 sagas of super just because it's moronic and the same thing over and over again. Literally just dbz but they keep going higher and higher powerlevels instead of just letting it end
>Gt mogs shitty ass super, get over it homosexual.
Yeah if you're a contrarian. Also what exactly is there to get over? GT is not canon and Super is still relevant. It is UNIVERSALLY agreed by most people that Super is the better series and there's nothing you can do to change that so If anything, YOU should get over it.
>it's Canon
Yep, you're a homosexual lol. You realize it doesn't exist right? Super being Canon doesn't matter, since none of its real moron. Anyways, only brain dead morons watch super, so of course they're going to think it's better than gt. DragonBall ended 20 years ago and should've stayed that way, super is an embarrassment. DragonBall is a product of its time, and continuing it this day in age is cringe
First of all you're illiterate. Also
>DragonBall ended 20 years ago
It ended in the 90's, moron. 20 years ago, we were only getting OVAs and TV specials.
Illiterate? I skimmed your reply because I don't care what you think very much lol. Enjoy watching your cashgrab series DBZ+ LOL
It's better to just watch the movies and start with Goku Black arc. Then you get this kino in the finale
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For me, it was when Frieza kicked Jiren in the back of the head. Yeah, it didn't do much, but it was amusing
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Shut up superspic. Deviant art colored hair is moronic. Super sucks. It's bad and only wienerroach human beings enjoy it. Everything about it is a downgrade.
a downgrade from what exactly?
Animation. Tone. Atmosphere. Designs. Everyone is slimmer. I'd even say character assassination. Tournament of power is wasted potential. Bringing back villains that should be dead and done.
That's why Daima will be the ressurrection of the franchise
Dragon Ball popularized the franchise
Z made it global and mainstream
GT killed the franchise
Super made it relevant again flawed and all
Daima will make it universally beloved
I don't see how deaging them and having them on a new planet is gonna resurrect the franchise. I'm glad the power pole will be added though.
I don't think Daima is going to bring much to the table, honestly. It looks more like Toei just letting Toriyama do something he'd like to do for a change, which likely will not involve much battle. It'll be more akin to early Dragon Ball, with a lot of gags, eating, more gags, more eating and that's about it. Now that isn't to say that's not entertaining. It is, but what Toriyama likes and what the fanbase he built up likes, changed quite some time ago, even during the manga's run. Fighting with increasing stakes is what the fanbase likes to see and that's just not what Toriyama wants to provide anymore
Toei seems more willing to produce Dragon Ball content readily now, so doubtful Daima will be the last thing we'll see for a long time. A little rest from all the battle might be a good thing, if only just so they have enough time to think up some engaging battles after the Tournament of Power
They can't really do much in 20 episodes tbh
Maybe it's just a way to canonize SS4
At least it's a seasonal thing, hopefully the going forward it's more of a seasonal thing instead of weekly
Where are his nipples?
>Half a sayian is strong than a full sayian be
Based.
Cell was a lazy copypasta villain. Buu was a clever deconstruction of Goku's childlike love of fighting and the violent tendencies of the Saiyan race. Except a 350 hour video essay exploring this in detail.
Gotenks is arguably the worst and most pointless character ever introduced in Z
>Goku fights Fat Buu
>reveals his new transformation which is SSJ3
>still can't win
>decides Goten and Trunks can do the job with fusion
>already doesn't make any sense because if SSJ3 Goku cannot beat Buu, why in the frick would the combined power of Goten and trunks be able to beat him?
>10 episodes of fusion shenanigans later we finally get Gotenks
>spoiler alert... He's obnoxious as shit
>He now has to face Super Buu who is even more powerful than fat Buu
>next couple episodes is just moron Gotenks showcasing his stupid abilities
>GALACTIC DONUT!!
>SUPER GHOST KAMIKAZE ATTACK!!
>among other filler
>they end up getting stuck in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber
>the only way to escape it is to scream your head off until a portal appears
>they leave
>Buu survives
>the plot continues
>Gotenks becomes irrelevant after that
His whole introduction and what he would end up accomplishing (which was nothing) served literally no purpose. Just a waste of time for everyone. A moronic gag character who from start to finish never did anything cool or to justify his existence. He's even more of a shit character as you grow older because you can really see how truly unfunny and stupid he is without the nostalgia goggles that kept moronic kids from seeing how uncool he actually is.
I dont get the hate on super
Whis and beerus are probably the best comic relief in any saga ntm they are downright cool in design, powers and muh deepest lore and intent of creator
shame the new series wont continue with it but im loving the manga
>I dont get the hate on super
It's just selected hate amplified by the small community of anons on an imageboard. Most people like it.
>shame the new series wont continue with it but im loving the manga
The new show will improve upon the lore. Super was nothing more than rehashes of Z. Plus Toriyama has complete creative control now.
Is this bait? Beerus and Whis are part of the problem because they can deus ex machina the cast out of any situation. If anyone could land a hit on Whis, the wrath of the Omni King, the Grand Priest, and all the other Angels would probably smite them hard enough to expunge them from the whole timeline. If Goku hadn't killed Moro after what happened with Merus I'm 95% sure the Grand Priest would've smoked his ass as soon as Whis reported back, and that 5% doubt is only cause Merus chose to jump in and start hitting dudes as opposed to being jumped.
It is universally agreed that Beerus and Whis are the best characters ever introduced in nu-Dragon Ball.
I don't get it. So you're telling me the morons who watch Dragon Ball Super voted that the most moronic characters to ever be added to Dragon Ball are good? Why should I trust Dragon Ball Super fans?
You're an idiot
So you're telling me. The Super Duper morons who enjoy modern Dragon Ball think the new Super Duper moronic characters are....LE GOOD???
I mean that’s a fairly low bar
They're not fundamentally bad characters, but their function within the story and setting ruins any sort of dramatic tension or danger the story might otherwise present. Even if they wrote in something about the timeline fluctuating and created some semblance of disbelief that they might overwrite the original End of Z canon with something new, they still have to write an excuse every arc as to why Beerus and Whis can't be the team safety net.
>ruins any sort of dramatic tension or danger the story might otherwise present
I think the Tournament of Power tried to help in this regard, though it came far too late to repair all the damage Whis and Beerus did. Even they were helpless to oppose Zen-Oh when it came time to delete whole universes. As you said, if the heroes have characters that powerful around, it nullifies any sort of threat to them, unless it is Zen-Oh, in which case nothing can save them
If Toei wants to seriously keep Whis and Beerus around, they need to figure out how to do it that won't impede on the story's tension, but I don't really see how that can be done since they are always around on Earth now, eating or whatever else
>goku becomes a super saiyan after seeing his best friend die thinking he can't be revived
>vegeta becomes super sayjian out of pure spite/pride
>future trunks cause he'd seen some shit
>gohan after years of training specifically to become a super sayaman manages to do it with the help of his dad
>goten and shit trunks do it in the forest because toriyama is a moron
HOLY SHIT GOD OF DESTRUCTION SUPER SAYIAN DUPER TRANSFORMATION. THIS IS GOKUS HYPEST TRANSFORMATION EVER
so basically he turns into the legendary super saiyan?
OH SHIT NEW GOKU FORM JUST DROPPED. YOU CAN TELL IT'S EVEN MORE POWERFUL BECAUSE HE HAIR IS NORMAL....BUT DIFFERENTLY SHADED!!!2NGAS
Daima > Super >>>> GT >>>>>>>> Heroes
I hope this isn't just:
>Goku clobbers feeder to show off his Nyoibo again
>Goku eats
>Rinse repeat
The Android Saga leading into and connecting with the Cell saga were awesome. That's still my favorite time.
There are so many twists and turns and power level increases, I love it.
The point when part of the crew is trying to figure out what Cell is and chasing down this mysterious killer is excellent. Paired with the others fighting androids and struggling is great A & B storylines.
Later on when they all have to train for the Tournament and we see all of the different training styles is so cool.
I like the SoL bits like when Goku is just chilling in SSJ form.
What should have happened in Super is that Goten and Trunks are only Z fighters left because Goku and Vegeta died. That would have fixed the power scaling homosexualry and give us some Goten Trunks exploration kino.
Can't wait for all the exciting colors kid Goku will change into!
Buu saga was Toriyama just having fun because he thought it was the ending of the series. The power levels get ridiculous and every rule of the universe gets broken.
UI is the best transformation since Gohan became SSJ2.
>Super Saiyan
>Super Saiyan 2
>Ultra Instinct -Sign-
>Super Saiyan 4
>Super Saiyan 3
>Super Saiyan God (recolor)
>Ultra Instinct Blanco (recolor)
>Super Saiyan Blue, Blue Kaioken, Blue Evolution (recolor)
>Gohan Blanco (r-remember SSJ2, bros?)
These are the objective power rankings.
You're shit makes no sense. Why the frick would SSJ3 be stronger than SSJ4 and in what reality would pseudo UI be weaker than 3 and 4.
Super Saiyan 4 vs UI -Sign- (if you set the visual designs aside) comes down almost entirely to the setup and in-universe audience. if you drop the UI -Sign- transformation into the Baby Saga and just have King Kai, the Supreme Kai, Old Kai, Pan, Piccolo, and Gohan going "WOOOAH" it's not gonna illicit the same emotional reaction. if Goku had transformed into a Super Saiyan 4 infront of two Omni-Kings, multiple Gods of Destruction, the Grand Priest, all the remaining Angels, and the multiversal tournament competitors and had everyone shitting bricks, it would have blown a hole in the atmosphere above Mexico. latinos would've been painting themselves Red the next day in the streets. lmao
it's not a power level tier list, it's a tier list for the reveal of each form.
i agree, i think the Tournament of Power took a big creative swing at inception to try and shake up their Beerus safety net situation. one of, well i don't know if you'd call it a strength necessarily, but one of the things i appreciated i guess about DBZ and GT was that even the Kais and King Yemma who were supposed to be top tier shot callers could be threatened by a villain. Z Broly destroyed an entire galaxy and had its attending Kai fleeing for his fricking life. that was back when the stakes were "if Goku and the team can't stop this villain, there'll be nothing to stop them from killing everyone in the universe full stop. Super isn't like that though. even if Black Freeza showed up to Beerus' planet and started trying to kill Goku and Vegeta, Beerus could one-shot him for fricking up his lawn and attacking Saiyans he's taken a personal interest in and it would be 1000% believable based on the precedents set by this story and the state of the setting. it fricking bites.
even the AF designs were more visually striking even if they were dumb as frick
You're grasping. That is atrocious and everything wrong with fanfiction. If you find that more visually striking then you have the mind of a 8 year old.
>That is atrocious and everything wrong with fanfiction
Why?
Yeah that shit is for babies. I can't wait for Dragon Ball babies though. I have my bib and high chair ready and everything
>Unironically shitting on kid Goku in defense of AF designs
take the L
>Kid Goku design
I swear you Super fans are moronic
Daima isn't Super, moron.
That's literally how Toriyama draws him now. The reason why fat stubby Goku doesn't exist anymore is because of him AND because it's harder to animate.
You don't understand. Animating different looking Gokus would cost too much money. The Je-I mean Japanese rather have different easy to switch colors instead of actual unique designs.
Dishonest. Lying about shit wont make Super a better show
Ultra Ego was the only good thing that came out of the Manga and it might end up not canon
>Purple (cool color)
>No more eyebrows
>I am Super Beji-ACK!
AAAAAIIIIIIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
Is Vegeta the most punished character in all of anime? Certainly all of Dragonball.
I'd say Jr is more punished than Bejita and it has been like that for a very long time. He went from the most dangerous demonic fighter that nearly killed Goku, to the babysitter
merging with kami mellwoed out his persnality, picoolo doesnt really exist anymore and the transiation is apart of the character development
Is bottom Super?
Why is it so fricking awful. Why do that, make an inferior version of thing?
>Why do that, make an inferior version of thing?
this applies to literally every arc, movie, transformation, character etc in super
its all been done already in z
the latest dogshit gohan/cell movie is a prime example
>hey remember ssj2 vs cell? well here have it again except its not foreshadowed or earned by any training and you get to see it in disgusting japslop 3D CGI
It is very difficult, if not impossible, to defend the sloppy not-SSJ2 Gohan VS Cell Max theme in Super Hero. They copied that old fight nearly beat for beat. It is very much just there for pandering instead of bringing something fresh to the table to enjoy. I'd have liked to see a proper Gotenks fight against Cell Max than what we actually got. I never saw adult Gotenks in a fight before, so that would have been new, at least
>making his hair ridiculously big for nostalgia
Yeah his hair is ridiculous I was just about to comment on
about it. They have no shame because they know people will eat this BS up. It's funny how DB is still beloved while Star Wars is getting a shit ton of hate- I guess they don't attack their fans, but still that Cell max movie was horrible.
>It's funny how DB is still beloved while Star Wars is getting a shit ton of hate- I guess they don't attack their fans, but still that Cell max movie was horrible.
Yeah, not directly spiting and hating their own fans helps for sure. Making some attempt to give their fans things they think they'd want also helps. Disney on the other hand, goes out of its way to give fans exactly what they don't want. Not out of neglect or ignorance, but on purpose, to push The Message
Dragon Ball definitely has a lot of empty pandering and lazy writing, but that's preferable to having a kosher narrative constantly jammed into the product, to the point where it completely overtakes the product and becomes the product itself
>picoolo doesnt really exist anymore
That is true, he doesn't exist anymore. He stopped being Jr a rather long time ago. What he is now is an entirely different character that just looks like him and that makes me sad
para mi tiene que ser goku ssj10 jajajajajajajajajajaja
the entire buu saga takes place over the course of 24 hours if not slightly less
my hand slipped
>ultra instinct is just white hair and retconned to being just another transformation despite being foreshadowed as specifically something that trumps all transformations because its a state of mind that transcends power levels etc
>meanwhile ssj4 directly links back to the first transformation saiyans had that was actually literally thrown away by goku and vegeta because of its links to their evil history, which they finally confront head on and return to so that they may utilise its abilities and their own heritage
if anyone still prefers ultra instinct or blue hair super saiyan you can just stop talking to them because they are not the same species as you
bonus round:
>goku slowly builds ultra instinct the whole arc, complete with new hair and aura
>after getting tossed around, jiren screams once and gets the exact same brand new aura thats only used for ultra instinct
>but its not ultra instinct hes just mad now
just horrible