Dynastic succession had already been undermined before anyways (Dance of the Dragons, Great Council of 233 AC, Roberts Rebellion). What would make this any worse?
They were all still Targaryens on the throne. Robert was related to the Targaryens through his grandmother Rhaelle. It was Joffrey Baratheon who violated Dynastic Succession because he was a bastard and Aryan Lannisters have no relation to Targaryen blood.
Joffrey was legally a Baratheon though. Since he won the war, Stannis and Renly are both traitors. Robert had no claim on the throne, even with the grandmother talk, I believe a maester talks about this in the book. The throne would have rightfully gone to Viserys.
Aerys II and his line were attainted for breaching sacred laws of gods and men
That's what I'm literally saying you illiterate morons. I am saying Robert claimed the throne by conquest and not by blood right.
2 years ago
Anonymous
His claim was through his blood, otherwise they'd have just crowned Jon Arryn, you dumb homosexual.
2 years ago
Anonymous
No they wouldn’t have crowned an old guy with no heirs. Also the targ blood thing was simply an excuse, robert was the face of the rebellion and the most charismatic of the three, they would have pushed him as king even if ned had been the one with a tiny drop of targ blood in him
2 years ago
Anonymous
Robert wasn't the face of the rebellion, it was Jon Arryn. Arryn was both the most powerful lord and if he wanted, he could have sold both of them to Aerys. This is commonly misunderstood. Robert was specifically chosen because he had blood ties to the Targaryens. He didn't even want to rule.
The importance of blood is much for the same reason as it is in real history - to prevent upstarts from claiming they are king just because they have an army. This doesn't go specifically into the Iron Throne, but also to the other major houses.
2 years ago
Anonymous
if you'd read the books you'd know they specifically cite his blood as a reason for being chosen
2 years ago
Anonymous
His claim was through his blood, otherwise they'd have just crowned Jon Arryn, you dumb homosexual.
His claim was by blood, Anon.
I think what that Anon is saying is since Robert claimed the throne by blood + conquest it would've rightfully gone to Viserys since Joffrey wasn't his blood and it was still technically Targaryen blood ruling the throne
2 years ago
Anonymous
The other poster made a good point it’s that Aerys II line is attainted so anyone descended from him his no go. Robert in particular hates Targaryens despite being descended from them. Joffrey and his siblings are illegitimate so it goes Stannis, then Renly, maybe one of Robert’s bastards (if Shireen isn’t around) and maybe if you wanted to get autistic a Velaryon or Martell or something after that
Robert and all Baratheons have a claim to the throne. It's common knowledge among maesters that the Baratheon founder was a Targaryen bastard. George kinda wrote that bit long after the first book so it was never brought up in the original books.
lore wise it's a contributing factor but they also have the most recent Targaryen ancestry out of any of the houses which is the argument used for their ascendancy to the throne outside of just through conquest
2 years ago
Anonymous
I’d say the Martells would be neck-and-neck with them.
Dynasty had no meaning in Westeros. The Iron Throne didn't even have an army. Every house ruled their own lands as they saw fit and tolerated the throne because whatever moron was dumb enough to sit on it would attract the attention of all the schemers.
Dynasty and all central power groups rely on either bigger army strategy or political scheming to maintain their dominance
Most transition from one to the other over time.
With iron throne it began as bigger army with aegon and his dragons. And this continued until the dragons died off and the family weakened.
From there it was political manoeuvring that they relied on, keeping the kingdoms in positions where they couldn't overcome the targaryans, or pitted them against each other, or kept friendly beneficial relationships.
When the mad King was unable to maintain this political balance and wrecked it their Dynasty ended
Instead of supporting his older brothers' claim or making an alliance with the north, he allows the Lannisters to divide and conquer and hands the Tyrells over to them.
If he teamed up with Stannis to avenge his murdered brother, it could have been based. Renly on his own is a flaming gay who doesn't have the killer instinct or know how to get the job done.
Stannis as administrator and commander and Renly as the Public face of PR would have been a dream team faction.
Yep. And with Renly to temper Stannis's autism, they likely could have come to an agreement with the North that would get them onboard at least long enough to burn out the Lannisters. Baratheon and Stark working together is a win and there is nothing Tywin could have done to stop them.
It'll be Robert's Rebellion all over again. They'll also be able rope in the riverlands through their marriage connections. Lannisters won't be able to do shit. They either give up the throne and Jofffey or theyre all dead
He wasn't a good King. His empire split apart the moment he died because he didnt really build a state, he lead an army. He spent most of his life fricking men instead of making political marriages and raising strong sons to take his place. When he finally did get married it was some random chieftains daughter from Afganistan instead of a Persian princess or Macedonian nobleman.
Though he did try to make his Greek generals marry Persian women of equal rank hoping they'd create a new ruling class for his empire. His men probably met their Persian women like once or twice with the bulk of their time being on campaign with Alexandqueer.
>About as good as Bobby
Robert was a bad king. He simply died before the horrible consequences of his misrule came to fruition. Renly would just continue the misrule.
>Robert was largely a good king, given how good times were
He was sowing catastrophe the entire time. It's like doing meth. Sure, it will be great at first but then the teeth rot away and you become and addict and everything falls apart.
He would never be able to, he didn't have any type of claim to the throne, but even if he did, it depends on who his hand of the king was. I don't remember if they say so on the show or the book. He probably would've been the same as his brother, just fricking and partying.
There would've been chaos. Every second son in the whole realm would be angling for their dad's title. His own kids would do the same. It would be the Blackfyre Rebellion times a million
the entire point of the show is about the futility of the position because everybody under you are shitflinging backstabbing morons which is interesting because there's no way to end the show easily and that's why they gave up and made the mentally moronic wheelchair bound bran the king because the writers said "frick it who cares about this fricking show"
There's no reason to think that whatsoever. They would have all made shifty rulers, the best bet would have been if ned stayed hand of the king and maybe stopped Jeffrey from being such a shit.
Ned lacked the wit and scheming ability but was a just ruler. Stannis and Renly already sat on the small council while Robert was fricking your mom, they could have ruled.
In the books, Renly is like a younger more charismatic version of Robert. He's also an arrogant schemer but still a tool who thinks popularity is everything. In the show Renly's a fop who needs his gay lover to tell him to become king.
Book Renly: >Chad who likes bloody, sweaty men.
Show Renly: >Prissy b***h who lets himself be dominated by his lover and his lover's sister.
I wish that Hollywood would embrace that you don't have to act like a woman to like men.
Book Renly: >Chad who likes bloody, sweaty men.
Show Renly: >Prissy b***h who lets himself be dominated by his lover and his lover's sister.
I wish that Hollywood would embrace that you don't have to act like a woman to like men.
Daily reminder that Henry Cavill should've been Renly. They really fricked the casting. The show started going downhill in season 2, they just had enough good material to draw from for most people to excuse it. His death is supposed to be the gut-punch of Clash of Kings, not make you go "literally who?"
Renly is only a year older than Theon, he needed someone young to portray the smug princeling barely old enough to remember the war that put his family on the throne.
The reason gays weren't respected in medieval hierarchy isn't homophobia it's because there's no reliable way to confirm their progeny is actually theirs. No one would ever believe Margery's kids were his because she was sucking every dick in King's Landing
No. He didn't want to do things for the realm, he did things for vanity and to entertain himself. He was just a heavy hedonist with the benefit of not being as autistically coarse as his older brother.
What happened fo him looking more practical than aesthetic? I thought he had short hair and was raised to be humble? I don't see him strutting into Westeros adorning full, ruby-encrusted armor and wearing his hair down like an old king.
From his talks with Tyrion he didnt sound especially humble though
2 years ago
Anonymous
I don't remember, was he bragging about sucking on Septa Lemore's fat udders or something?
2 years ago
Anonymous
He's an entitled little shit who wants to be king already.
He hadn't even considered that Daenerys might reject him until Tyrion brought it up and he reacted badly to the possibility.
2 years ago
Anonymous
This left a bad impression, but a lot of that was probably due to it being from Tyrion's perspective.
He was humble enough to take Tyrion's advice, and to save him after he fell into the Rhoyne.
I think you're right, he may be a kid and come off a bit bratty, but in the grand scheme he probably is a bettter choice than Dany, ignoring his dubious blood
2 years ago
Anonymous
Everyone is a better choice than Dany. Her entire journey has been one blunder after another
2 years ago
Anonymous
It's fine when the plot just hands her the solution again and again
2 years ago
Anonymous
He was humble enough to take Tyrion's advice, and to save him after he fell into the Rhoyne.
>my favorite house
Its not up to you. Stannis is the king by rights. >“It is not a question of wanting. The throne is mine, as Robert’s heir. That is law. After me, it must pass to my daughter, unless Selyse should finally give me a son.” He ran three fingers lightly down the table, over the layers of smooth hard varnish, dark with age. “I am king. Wants do not enter into it. I have a duty to my daughter. To the realm. Even to Robert. He loved me but little, I know, yet he was my brother. The Lannister woman gave him horns and made a motley fool of him. She may have murdered him as well, as she murdered Jon Arryn and Ned Stark. For such crimes there must be justice. Starting with Cersei and her abominations. But only starting. I mean to scour that court clean.
It's part of Stannis's autism that it's not enough to support him and his cause, you have to do it in the way he wants to for the reasons he perceive as correct. Only Davos is meek enough to accept it, and only because he has to justify to himself the death of four of his sons
2 years ago
Anonymous
Well said.
I said I'm still a Stannis man
The way you phrase it implies you have a choice in the matter.
2 years ago
Anonymous
of course I have a choice
I can bend the knee or be destroyed
2 years ago
Anonymous
Submitting to the sword is the same as submitted to his authority. You can live.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>Only Davos is meek enough to accept it
Calling Davos meek is just stupid. He literally knows that some of the shit he says, while true, would get him killed if stannis wasn't so based. And he's lucky Manderly didn't do the same
>as she murdered Jon Arryn
Is there anyone alive who knows that it was Lysa who killed Jon? Except for Littlefinger, maybe. I wonder if that would end up helping the Lannisters in the books, if the news spread that a batshit crazy Tully was behind the hand's murder. Maybe they could spin the whole incest thing as a Stark lie to cover up the murder carried out to place Ned as the hand of the king, in a plot between him and his sister-in-law.
I played Roose and fathered many children on both Arya and Sansa.
Speaking of, you should all check out the Merged mod some anon is putting together over in /vst/, it's playable right now and he's been merging a ton of submods that never worked together into a single one, even replacing the original mod download and install. This both creating something new as well as much more convenient
it makes the most sense. What does Stannis actually care about hating the Targaryens? if he believed FAegon to be genuine and to humbly marry his daughter and become joint heir while Stannis rules what would be his actual issue with it?
>WINDS, you say? Yes, still working. Finally finished a clutch of Cersei chapters that were giving me fits. Now I am wrestling with Jaime and Brienne. The work proceeds, though not as fast as many of you would like.
In the time between the last book and now, the entirety of the HBO adaption ran its course.
I'm glad he's not writing any more books. Dance and Feast sucked ass.
>Book Loras is an exalted tourney knight who also shows his ability on the battlefield and who Jaime Lannister himself respects the skill of, a man that few would think gay, to the point where Littlefinger shows how much he knows about the realm by hinting at him being gay. Once Renly dies he joins the King's Guard because the light of his life has gone out but as far as the people think he's just one of the best knights in the kingdom and so belongs on the King's Guard >show Loras has fricked every stableboy in the kingdom and after Renly dies he keeps fricking more and more people, with everyone just joking about him being a gay without ever respecting him as a knight
I still don't understand how D&D dodged being skewered for their obvious homophobia when ruining two great gay characters.
There's definitely never been a "lol they're gay lovers and frick all day long!" confirmation, but there's enough hints and innuendo to make it obvious. I remember there were people on here reening about the show "turning" them gay when they first showed up, though. That was quite funny.
At this point it's not known if he's surviving the oil or whether he's even hurt. The last thing heard about him is a letter saying he got burnt by oil and is dying, basically. The big question is whether that's just a Tyrell ruse or not. Making Cersei think Loras is dying and so can't come to his sister's aid in a trial by combat would be a clever play, for example.
>tfw this was over a decade ago at this point and we'll never find out whether he's really dying or not
>Robert was the true steel. Stannis is pure iron, black and hard and strong, yes, but brittle, the way iron gets. He'll break before he bends. And Renly, that one, he's copper, bright and shiny, pretty to look at but not worth all that much at the end of the day.
Renlysisters... it's over
>Jon Connington meets Ser Loras >Jon Con wolf-whistles at Loras >Jon Con: "you've got an ass like my destrier, boy" >Loras: "you're not bad yourself old man. I hope that greyscale has already spread to your genitals, I'd love to get my hands on that hard stuff" >Jon Con: "why is your face fricked up? did you get oil thrown at you from the ramparts of Dragonstone?"
It's me GRRM. I'm just doing test screenings of Winds here on Cinemaphile
The Tyrells bumbling their way through the books because they have a huge army is hilarious.
>pick wrong pretender to the throne (first to die, although that could be a blessing) >forgiven by Lannisters and invited to wed the current king to your family >duped by Cersei's moustache-twirling villain plots >just post your empire outside of King's Landing and stop grain shipments to get the outcome you want
EZ
The Tyrells bumbling their way through the books because they have a huge army is hilarious.
>pick wrong pretender to the throne (first to die, although that could be a blessing) >forgiven by Lannisters and invited to wed the current king to your family >duped by Cersei's moustache-twirling villain plots >just post your empire outside of King's Landing and stop grain shipments to get the outcome you want
EZ
>pick wrong pretender to the throne
They didn't pick wrong, though. There was no way to get Stannis to marry Margaery and Joffrey was an incest freak they didn't want to muddy their waters with until they had to. Their aim was always to get their own blood on the throne for the next generation, while controlling the current king. That could only be done with Renly, not with Robb or Stannis.
>There was no way to get Stannis to marry Margaery
Stannis isn't having a male heir any time and Shireen hasn't been promised to anyone? See Loras apparently ran laps around his family and persuaded them to throw in with his boyfriend, so he could spend more time with him. It made logistically, since Stormlands and Reach could easily merge their armies and indue pressure on the other regions, but it's still stupid that they broke the law in every way possible (there's absolutely no justification for supporting Renly from a legal standpoint).
>(there's absolutely no justification for supporting Renly from a legal standpoint)
plus it sets a dangerous precedent
In the long-term, however, it's an extremely dangerous political theory for the stability of the Westerosi monarchy. Renly has the most troops at that moment, but there's no way to be sure that Renly or his descendant, or his descendant's descendant will have the same numerical advantage in the future. If his argument is accepted as binding precedent, Renly will forever have to remain on his guard lest someone out there strike while he is unaware since it's now accepted that a strongman can legitimately overthrow a sitting king. Even if he succeeded in holding the Iron Throne for the duration of his natural life, the odds are good that his death will set off a new civil war as each of the Great Houses assesses the new balance of power.
Inheritance by blood is not a political principle that most of us accept today, but in its time it promised stability and a predictable consistency in the transition of power.
The danger to Renly here is that he will have succeeded in retaking Robert's throne, only to find himself in the same bind as before, only with Tyrells demanding royal patronage appointments in return for Tyrell financing of royal debts, becoming the true power behind the Iron Throne and eventually sparking conflict between insiders and outsiders. Such conflicts over patronage and power could easily lead to wars of independence as outsiders come to view the central authority as corrupt and no longer an honest broker for their interests - and the more decentralized the monarchy is, the harder it would be to stop them.
it's a dangerous precedent for Renly to embrace, given that (had Renly succeeded on these terms), Robb Stark at the very least would have led a largely successful movement for autonomy (Balon Greyjoy probably wouldn't have gotten the same offer), netting him two out of Seven Kingdoms.
>They didn't pick wrong, though
how did renly work out?
>as she murdered Jon Arryn
Is there anyone alive who knows that it was Lysa who killed Jon? Except for Littlefinger, maybe. I wonder if that would end up helping the Lannisters in the books, if the news spread that a batshit crazy Tully was behind the hand's murder. Maybe they could spin the whole incest thing as a Stark lie to cover up the murder carried out to place Ned as the hand of the king, in a plot between him and his sister-in-law.
>how did renly work out?
Literally nobody in-universe could've ever expected Stannis pulling a shadow baby out of his ass. Renly would've crushed the others without that happening.
In what world do Stannis' 5000 men defeat Renly's 20000? Stannis couldn't even defeat the gold cloaks with 20000 men.
2 years ago
Anonymous
The world of reality.
My own suspicion is that Stannis had something very different in mind when he came down to Storm’s End: with less than 400 horse, he’s certainly not planning to meet Renly head-on in a traditional clash of knightly charges. Rather, given what we learn of Stannis’ army from the Prologue, Stannis has an overwhelming advantage when it comes to infantry (especially archers), and has had time to construct fieldworks. I think that Stannis planned for something like Crécy, in which the force of Renly’s cavalry would be blunted by earthworks and his disciplined infantry, leaving them vulnerable to his archers.
And had this battle taken place, it’s highly likely that Renly would have complied, because the inexperienced younger brother had left himself badly exposed and in need of a quick resolution, as Catelyn notes: >“Ned would surely have prevailed upon Robert to bring up his whole force, to encircle Stannis and besiege the besiegers. That choice Renly had denied himself in his headlong rush to come to grips with his brother. He had outdistanced his supply lines, left food and forage days behind…he must come to battle soon, or starve.”
Moreover, when we see Renly’s command tent, we see that he’s planning an aggressive attack, and ignoring his best commander, by offering: >“Lord Mathis, you shall lead the center of my main battle. Bryce, you’ll have the left. The right is mine. Lord Estermont, you shall command the reserve…the greatest glory by rights belongs to the greatest knight. Ser Loras shall strike the first blow.”
Even Mace Tyrell, no one’s idea of a great general, knew to put Randall Tarly in charge of his vanguard – and without his experience, there’s no way a glory-hungry Loras in his first battle is going to see a trap coming.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Nice post.
Still lots of /got/ to discuss.
2 years ago
Anonymous
There's no indication that Stannis is competent enough to pull off a Crecy or some other serious trap. His only major battle, Blackwater, was plagued by the same frick-ups you note in Renly (overly aggressive attack, inexperienced commander in Imry Florent). Stannis could have probably bloodied Renly well, but it's doubtful he would have won.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Stannis defeated the Iron Fleet at sea and held Storm's End against the power of the Reach for a year. He is one of the most successful military commanders in Westeros.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Good points. Especially that they're supported with quotes from the books.
[...]
Stannis won at Fair Isle and subdued all of Great Wyk, the largest of the Iron Islands
Plus he held Storm's End under siege for a year and took Dragonstone from the Targaryen loyalists
He seems to have experienced
Naval Battles and Sieges do not tell us about Stannis' capabilities in a land battle. Blackwater was the closest to a major battle, and it was a colossal mistake. I like Stannis, but I think his tactical capability is seriously overrated.
2 years ago
Anonymous
What about when he smashed Mance Rayder at the Wall when he was outnumbered 20 to 1?
2 years ago
Anonymous
Smashing beat dogs with a cavalry charge is not a major engagement. Most of the wildlings were women and children, while the rest were undisciplined and wholly foriegn to mass cavalry charges. Not comprable to Westerosi knights.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>I FOUGHT 50 SEA RAIDERS AND BEAT THEM ALL BY MYSELF! TAKE THAT, SWADIAN homosexualS, I'M KING!
I'm sensing a couple FRICKING TARG SHITS
2 years ago
Anonymous
>I FOUGHT 50 SEA RAIDERS AND BEAT THEM ALL BY MYSELF! TAKE THAT, SWADIAN homosexualS, I'M KING!
2 years ago
Anonymous
A KHERGITE HORDE IN AN OPEN FIELD
2 years ago
Anonymous
I fight for the NORDS.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Sea raiders are way stronger though. Wildlings are basically looter tier, not even good enough to be forest bandits. No doubt 100 Heavy Armor Swadian cavalry could beat 2000 looters
2 years ago
Anonymous
Looks like you chose to ignore he subdued Great Wyk.
Blackwater wasn't a mistake, he only lost due to a literal deus ex of 60,000 Tyrell foot and Tywin's host somehow sneaking up on him
2 years ago
Anonymous
We don't have any info on Great Wyk, so we can't seriously judge him on that. The 60,000 Tyrell footmen sneaking up on him was a result of him not replacing his scouts that were killed in the kingswood and instead marching on King's Landing blindly, a serious mistake.
2 years ago
Anonymous
We know it's the largest of the Iron Islands and seemed sufficient for his enemies to justly judge him on it and fear his capabilities. Seems a likelier estimate than yours.
2 years ago
Anonymous
I'm not estimating things, I'm going off of the only serious battle we see Stannis in, unlike you.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>I'm not estimating things,
It's literally all you're doing while ignoring quotes and the in-universe characters who know better. It's amusing, really.
2 years ago
Anonymous
What I am doing is recounting the facts of the battle of the Blackwater. The in-universe characters have never met Stannis in battle, except Victarion, who is an idiot. They can't judge his abilities as a commander in the manner that the readers who see Stannis' battles first-hand can.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Hard to judge Stannis off of Blackwater when we never see him in command there. You're making estimations based on what we do see.
2 years ago
Anonymous
He is in overall command, moron. WTF am I estimating?
2 years ago
Anonymous
Everything, dumb homosexual. You seem to doubt his capacity to lead a defensive battle when its the type he's best known for, you ignore his victories when his opponents speak of them in warning, and you judge his one defeat despite never seeing his orders. You're a brainlet, and while that is amusing it stops being entertaining in time.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Seethe, moron. He's never fought a defensive battle that we know of before (sieges aren't battles), and you're estimating his skill entirely on word of mouth. His one defeat is also his most major engagement on land, and thus it's fair to judge his skill based on it. He's the commander of his army, and we see how he puts incompetent men like Imry Florent directly under him. If the orders that caused his frick-ups like the scout issue were because of his stupid underlings, that doesn't bode well for his own competence. I'm sorry you're favorite fictional character doesn't live up to his reputation, but that's how he's written.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>sieges aren't battles
lol ok moron
2 years ago
Anonymous
>sieges aren't battles
Goddamn that’s some hard cope over losing the argument.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>(sieges aren't battles)
2 years ago
Anonymous
>sieges aren't battles
Goddamn that’s some hard cope over losing the argument.
>sieges aren't battles
lol ok moron
Yes, there is a serious difference between a siege and a pitched battle. Stannis is a very impressive siege defender. But again, Blackwater indicates he is less skilled at land warfare.
2 years ago
Anonymous
The river battle indicates he's less skilled at land warfare than the defensive battle with fortifications would indicate he is with a defensive battle with fortifications?
That's some hard seething you're doing, anon.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Yes, the river battle (both a part of land warfare, and only a river battle because Stannis failed to encircle the city and instead assaulted the mud gate with only his vanguard) is more indicative of Stannis' skill at land warfare than a siege, especialy one where the enemy host did not attempt to storm the castle. Not a the same as a defensive battle.
2 years ago
Anonymous
are you homosexuals talking the tv show or the books? book stannis is top-tier military commander, only loses king's landing due to bad luck (read: the author)
2 years ago
Anonymous
Conquering Great Wyk indicates he's a skilled land commander.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>The 60,000 Tyrell footmen sneaking up on him was a result of him not replacing his scouts that were killed in the kingswood and instead marching on King's Landing blindly, a serious mistake.
aka the deus ex
since 60,000 foot sneaking up on 16,000 mounted knights and freeriders through ashes since the kingswood by the river had been burnt out for days is an asspull that GRRM needed for Stannis to lose
2 years ago
Anonymous
I know it's an asspull, but the asspull makes Stannis seem incompetent by virtue of not having enough scouts. I don't like how GRRM wrote it, but that's how he wrote it.
2 years ago
Anonymous
What's bizarre is it's incompatible with previous Stannis canon, like how they didn't establish and fieldworks to guard their camp while waiting on the fleet.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>Naval Battles and Sieges do not tell us about Stannis' capabilities in a land battle
You'd be surprised naval translates pretty damn well to land and vice versa
2 years ago
Anonymous
What? Did you even read the books? Him and Tarly are portrayed as being basically the most competent battlefield commanders out there based on the last war. Maybe next to Ned and Blackfish. Literally everybody is afraid of him and know that he's dangerous and the only reason he doesn't frick everybody's shit is because he has no army
2 years ago
Anonymous
The problem is the mismatch between his reputation and what we see, and that's really because of George. The frick-ups at Blackwater (not replacing the scouts, not encircling the city, putting Imry Florent as admiral) were serious and uncharacteristic of Stannis' reputation. But George needed Stannis to lose, and so he made Stannis make these mistakes. Judging characters by what we see rather than word of mouth, Stannis appears to be significantly less skilled as a commander, though this may simply be because of plot reasons.
2 years ago
Anonymous
He was among the best commanders of Rob’s Rebellion. Robert sent him to Storm’s End because he was the only man he trusted to be made of steely enough stuff to hold it. Then he, not even being a naval commander of any note, absolutely embarrassed the Iron Fleet.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>Robert sent him to Storm’s End because he was the only man he trusted
Stanniskeks believe this
2 years ago
Anonymous
Robert envied Stannis and even hated him a little for his worthiness. He sent him there for two reasons - that he thought he could hold it, but hoped that he wouldn’t. When he succeeded there, he sent him to capture Dragonstone, then essentially exiled him there on the barest of excuses.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>Robert envied Stannis
2 years ago
Anonymous
He did. He also didn’t feel threatened by Renly in the slightest, which is why he gave him Storm’s End. Rob knew Renly was weak.
2 years ago
Anonymous
damn that's a good post
2 years ago
Anonymous
Good points. Especially that they're supported with quotes from the books.
There's no indication that Stannis is competent enough to pull off a Crecy or some other serious trap. His only major battle, Blackwater, was plagued by the same frick-ups you note in Renly (overly aggressive attack, inexperienced commander in Imry Florent). Stannis could have probably bloodied Renly well, but it's doubtful he would have won.
Stannis won at Fair Isle and subdued all of Great Wyk, the largest of the Iron Islands
Plus he held Storm's End under siege for a year and took Dragonstone from the Targaryen loyalists
He seems to have experienced
2 years ago
Anonymous
you fricking wrecked that anon
2 years ago
Anonymous
TRVE VNDERSTANDER
2 years ago
Anonymous
Fantastic analysis.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>In what world do Stannis' 5000 men defeat Renly's 20000?
I'm just pointing this out because it bugs me. Being practical and drawing from history, Stannis wouldn't actually need to fight to win in the short term. Due to the strategic situation, Stannis could just sit tight in his fortified siege camp and wait until Renly left. And Stannis would have a fortified camp for the siege by that time. GRRM apparently doesn't know about field fortifications. Renly's 20,000 cavalry have very little supplies due to the situation before the battle. They would have to dismount to attack Stannis' camp and his 5000 fanatics could hold on defensively for a couple days until Renly runs out of supplies and has to retreat back to Bitterbridge.
2 years ago
Anonymous
btfo
The world of reality.
My own suspicion is that Stannis had something very different in mind when he came down to Storm’s End: with less than 400 horse, he’s certainly not planning to meet Renly head-on in a traditional clash of knightly charges. Rather, given what we learn of Stannis’ army from the Prologue, Stannis has an overwhelming advantage when it comes to infantry (especially archers), and has had time to construct fieldworks. I think that Stannis planned for something like Crécy, in which the force of Renly’s cavalry would be blunted by earthworks and his disciplined infantry, leaving them vulnerable to his archers.
And had this battle taken place, it’s highly likely that Renly would have complied, because the inexperienced younger brother had left himself badly exposed and in need of a quick resolution, as Catelyn notes: >“Ned would surely have prevailed upon Robert to bring up his whole force, to encircle Stannis and besiege the besiegers. That choice Renly had denied himself in his headlong rush to come to grips with his brother. He had outdistanced his supply lines, left food and forage days behind…he must come to battle soon, or starve.”
Moreover, when we see Renly’s command tent, we see that he’s planning an aggressive attack, and ignoring his best commander, by offering: >“Lord Mathis, you shall lead the center of my main battle. Bryce, you’ll have the left. The right is mine. Lord Estermont, you shall command the reserve…the greatest glory by rights belongs to the greatest knight. Ser Loras shall strike the first blow.”
Even Mace Tyrell, no one’s idea of a great general, knew to put Randall Tarly in charge of his vanguard – and without his experience, there’s no way a glory-hungry Loras in his first battle is going to see a trap coming.
Catalyn specifically wishes that she would have tried to wed Robb to Margaery in the books, so it's not like it wasn't ever on the table. It actually probably would have been the best outcome for basically everyone
>There was no way to get Stannis to marry Margaery
Stannis isn't having a male heir any time and Shireen hasn't been promised to anyone? See Loras apparently ran laps around his family and persuaded them to throw in with his boyfriend, so he could spend more time with him. It made logistically, since Stormlands and Reach could easily merge their armies and indue pressure on the other regions, but it's still stupid that they broke the law in every way possible (there's absolutely no justification for supporting Renly from a legal standpoint).
Stannis doesn't like the Tyrells because they besieged him. He's also married to a Florent who thinks their House should rule the Reach
The Tyrells knew this and had no reason to side with him as they have nothing to gain at best, but have plenty to gain with Renly
Too bad they made him and his lover into prancing feminine stereotypes. I always got the impression in the books that Renly was a thick, black-haired Baratheon. And that Loras was a bit of a fop but he never started talking about interior decorating for frick's sake.
They were total bros and kept it on the down-low.
>be lord of the Stormlands >Stannis raises his banners and makes his claim to the kingdom >Renly raises his banners and makes his claim to the kingdom
Do you side with:
A. The man who held Storm's End for a year, the rightful ruler of Westeros by the laws of primogeniture
B. The little brother who has been partying it up in King's Landing for the last 15 years
>be lord of the Stormlands >Stannis raises his banners and makes his claim to the kingdom >Renly raises his banners and makes his claim to the kingdom
Do you side with:
A. The man who held Storm's End for a year, the rightful ruler of Westeros by the laws of primogeniture
B. The little brother who has been partying it up in King's Landing for the last 15 years
Stormlords were sworn directly to the lord of Storm's End. Not following Renly would have meant breaking their oaths of vassalage
I never understand why people sided with Renly in the first case. Seems extremely illegal.
[...]
Stormlords were sworn directly to the lord of Storm's End. Not following Renly would have meant breaking their oaths of vassalage
>declare for stannis >rest of the stormlords and the reach declare for renly >be surrounded by them
I cant blame them for going with renly, stannis only had some sworn houses and mercs while renly had two kingdoms behind him
>how did renly work out?
Literally nobody in-universe could've ever expected Stannis pulling a shadow baby out of his ass. Renly would've crushed the others without that happening.
In what world do Stannis' 5000 men defeat Renly's 20000? Stannis couldn't even defeat the gold cloaks with 20000 men.
he planned to use the sun to his advantage since they were going to attack in the morning, making renly's army blind. iirc only randyll tarly caught up to that but he knew renly wouldnt listen to him
I just remembered where I got the sun idea, based cantuse does it again
https://cantuse.wordpress.com/2014/12/01/teeth-of-the-rising-sun/
The world of reality.
My own suspicion is that Stannis had something very different in mind when he came down to Storm’s End: with less than 400 horse, he’s certainly not planning to meet Renly head-on in a traditional clash of knightly charges. Rather, given what we learn of Stannis’ army from the Prologue, Stannis has an overwhelming advantage when it comes to infantry (especially archers), and has had time to construct fieldworks. I think that Stannis planned for something like Crécy, in which the force of Renly’s cavalry would be blunted by earthworks and his disciplined infantry, leaving them vulnerable to his archers.
And had this battle taken place, it’s highly likely that Renly would have complied, because the inexperienced younger brother had left himself badly exposed and in need of a quick resolution, as Catelyn notes: >“Ned would surely have prevailed upon Robert to bring up his whole force, to encircle Stannis and besiege the besiegers. That choice Renly had denied himself in his headlong rush to come to grips with his brother. He had outdistanced his supply lines, left food and forage days behind…he must come to battle soon, or starve.”
Moreover, when we see Renly’s command tent, we see that he’s planning an aggressive attack, and ignoring his best commander, by offering: >“Lord Mathis, you shall lead the center of my main battle. Bryce, you’ll have the left. The right is mine. Lord Estermont, you shall command the reserve…the greatest glory by rights belongs to the greatest knight. Ser Loras shall strike the first blow.”
Even Mace Tyrell, no one’s idea of a great general, knew to put Randall Tarly in charge of his vanguard – and without his experience, there’s no way a glory-hungry Loras in his first battle is going to see a trap coming.
Remeber that Stannis was bringing a foreign religion in to Westeros. Following the lord of light instead of the seven makes him evil to most Westerosi, it's like finding out that the next prince of England worships Satan. Religion is as important as proper lineage to these people which justify going against Stannis the Mannis.
The fact that he is unpopular amongst the other lords dont help him.
I don't think it would mean people thought hes worshippimg Satan, beacuse then they would actually have an idea how that religion works
I think it would be more of an English King in 13th century saying hes Buddhist
The last three Joffrey scenes he: >laughed his ass off about Catelyn dying and called her a b***h and ordered Walder Frey to send Robb's decomposing head so he could feed it to Sansa >chopped up a book from Tyrion >pissed himself laughing so hard at a bunch of midgets debasing themselves >ordered his uncle to be his cup bearer and kneel
care to back up your claim?
This show is fricking gay. its about a group of survivors killing each other in a zombie apocalypse with the window dressing that they're rulers of a country, it isn't real political drama
I know that people defend seasons 1-4, and they're good but the shoe version of the battle of Blackwater was a serious letdown.
The naval engagements later in the battle with ships accidentally interlocking... The bridge of chained ships that Stannis supporters use to cross over the Blackwater... The arrival of pretend-Renly shaking the Stormlanders and causing some of them to switch sides in the chaos...
Shit was cash
>homosexual - disgusting freak >no loyalty to law - ignores succession law >no loyalty to family - ignores the rights of his older brother and refuses to fight with him against the common enemy >no loyalty to custom or tradition - Hires some b***h on his personal guard
"Great" choice for a king right there. He got what he fricking deserved.
Preston estimates the book is two-thirds done... No doubt GRRM will fall back into a slump towards the end when he realizes he has to break up the book yet again (like AFfC and ADoD), and that he is in no way closer to wrapping up the story...
Honestly Stannis should've just taken King's Landing at the start of A Clash of Kings. He could put Cersei and her kids to death before Tywin makes it back to the city and then his claim is the strongest.
I’m not looking forward to the Others March south at all. I love the series for the politics and intrigue, and it’s all on a giant timer to have to deal with some moron zombie army just stomping everyone and negating any political maneuvering cause lolmagic. Although it will be sweet to see Ramsay getting BTFO and shitting himself
think GRRM should've left it for the end of the series as a cliffhanger. Like the realm is at a an unsteady peace after years of war and whoever gets to be on the throne at the end
and then the Others attack the wall
series over and GRRM tease about doing a sequel series to explore what happens next but dies and never touches it (like Frank Herbert did)
would have been the best possible ending
I could not care less for the Others and Dany's middle-eastern escapades (and eventual expedition to Westeros). As you said, it negates all the build-up we've had across four books and cheapens the whole thing as "muh hero Jon Snuh defeats zombies because he is chosen one".
I'd be fine for the series to end with a showdown between Stannis, FAegon, Tyrells, Martells, etc. whoever is left standing.
You going to tell me that Rhaegar doesn't sound like the exact sort of Targ that would want to bring back Polygamy as they practiced before?
Wasn't he even naming his kids after Aegon and his sisters?
>You going to tell me that Rhaegar doesn't sound like the exact sort of Targ that would want to bring back Polygamy as they practiced before?
No. >Wasn't he even naming his kids after Aegon and his sisters?
Who knows if he truly was thinking of marrying them, I mean Visenya was the eldest sister yet Rhaegar named his eldest daughter after Rhaenys
I doubt any High Septon would find whatever arrangement Rhaegar had with Lyanna to be legal, since polygamy was abs big part of the conflict between the faith and Maegor.
>ahem, lords and ladies of Westeros, dearest jannies... I stand here before you to proclaim the realm's newest Hand, my very own grandfather Lord Alester Florent >now execute every Tyrell shitc**t on the continent
Based House Florent wins the game of thrones? I knew they had it in them.
I have a feeling Sam is gonna 360 no scope Euron kek
He's probably just going to be the pov for what is going on, we already know that the Ironborn ruse to raid oldtown was foiled when they were discovered trying to infiltrate. Maybe he will even give us a second pov for the Battle of Blood
Well that depends, what exact laws and policies would he have given if he had won the throne?
Stannis at least sought to cleanse the court of corruption, bring the Lannisters to heel and rule justly. What exactly did Renly want outside of the throne for the sake of throne? it's been a while since I've seen the show and I haven't read the books
Nah, that’d probably follow him ascending to the throne. Cersei basically started drinking heavily for the same reason Bobby did - to hide from the pressures of the throne. I bet Renly would do the same.
>For God’s sake let us sit upon the ground and tell sad stories of the death of kings: how some have been deposed, some slain in war, some haunted by the ghosts they have deposed, some poisoned by their wives, some sleeping killed.
All murdered, for within the hollow crown that rounds the mortal temples of a king keeps death his court
Honestly, imagine sitting down and thinking you're going to do better than Shakespeare.
God I really need to read the book, Is Stannis that much different in the book? is he even still alive? every time he would show on screen, I had the impression that he was fighting a war he couldn't win, between never gaining Jon's man and losing to brian of fricking tarth
He’s very different in the book. Very, very different. For starters, it’s pretty clear from the outset that he doesn’t see himself as Azor Ahi, but he’s perfectly cool with playing along if it keeps a blood witch on his team. In the books, Stannis is basically either an atheist or simply indifferent about the gods.
>When she got to the part where she threw Joffrey’s sword into the middle of the Trident, Renly Baratheon began to laugh. The king bristled. “Ser Barristan, escort my brother from the hall before he chokes.” >Lord Renly stifled his laughter. “My brother is too kind. I can find the door myself.” He bowed to Joffrey. “Perchance later you’ll tell me how a nine-year-old girl the size of a wet rat managed to disarm you with a broom handle and throw your sword in the river.” As the door swung shut behind him, Ned heard him say, “Lion’s Tooth,” and guffaw once more.
I wish we could’ve gotten this
>Stupid, impulsive and a homosexual >best king
Someone who is willing to fight their own brother(a rightful heir) over a throne that he has no claim to, will never be a good king.
He is willing to ignore and bend rules of gods and men when it fits him.
All he needed to fricking do was back Stannis the menace and be his right hand man, live a lavish life and have almost as much say in how things are ran as Stannis himself since Stannis is much more rational and reasonable than Robert was.
>golden company has friends in the reach >the reach backs renly >splits the baratheons >turns a rout into a shitfight >weakens realm ahead of aegon invasion
if melisandre hadn't of done it, randyll tarly would've
Stannis was quite literally an apostate. It was the duty of every knight to do him ill and uphold Renly's rightful claim to the throne. And no amount of autistic screeching is going ot change that.
What do you want to see happen in TWoW or ADoS? I don't mean character outcomes but more events in-universe.
>Greyscale epidemic somewhere in Westerns (King's Landing when Jon Connington and co. storm through the gates, or Shireen's greyscale accidentally flaring up again) >Vale knights finally march through the Bloody Gates and pour out into Westeros >Reach and Stormlands POVs for Iron Island and Golden Company invasions
It's only meant to be "spoooooky place that has the ruins of the old empire, and you can't get answers because you die if you go there unless you're super epic". Unless you dedicated an entire book to it, you'd never get a satisfying answer.
I'm still of the mind that GRRM realized he couldn't close out the story in less than two books. That is, unless you leave the Other invasion and Danearys' conquest as cliffhangers.
If things stay at the same pace as Clash of Kings and Storm of Swords, then at most FAegon will have taken King's Landing by the end of the new book. Stannis will have quelled the North and returned it to a Stark Lord Protector, the Martell's will have shown their hand, and the Littlefinger will start moving the Vale in the direction that he wants.
BIG EVENTS, but at the same time, they barely move the needle. You can't wrap up the entire story with just A Dream of Spring.
He got off on shocking/ surprising his readers but now they've figured out everything he had planned so he's lost the high he almost entirely wrote for
In terms of his morality, fairness and charisma yes
In terms of strength of will and personal intelligence (ability to not be mislead and controlled), willingness to do whatever is necessary ie cruel and immoral acts. No
>completely undermines the concept of a dynasty
>best king
Dynastic succession had already been undermined before anyways (Dance of the Dragons, Great Council of 233 AC, Roberts Rebellion). What would make this any worse?
How would it make things better?
>Dynastic succession had already been undermined
They were all still Targaryens on the throne. Robert was related to the Targaryens through his grandmother Rhaelle. It was Joffrey Baratheon who violated Dynastic Succession because he was a bastard and Aryan Lannisters have no relation to Targaryen blood.
Joffrey was legally a Baratheon though. Since he won the war, Stannis and Renly are both traitors. Robert had no claim on the throne, even with the grandmother talk, I believe a maester talks about this in the book. The throne would have rightfully gone to Viserys.
Right by conquest is still a right
That's what I'm literally saying you illiterate morons. I am saying Robert claimed the throne by conquest and not by blood right.
His claim was through his blood, otherwise they'd have just crowned Jon Arryn, you dumb homosexual.
No they wouldn’t have crowned an old guy with no heirs. Also the targ blood thing was simply an excuse, robert was the face of the rebellion and the most charismatic of the three, they would have pushed him as king even if ned had been the one with a tiny drop of targ blood in him
Robert wasn't the face of the rebellion, it was Jon Arryn. Arryn was both the most powerful lord and if he wanted, he could have sold both of them to Aerys. This is commonly misunderstood. Robert was specifically chosen because he had blood ties to the Targaryens. He didn't even want to rule.
The importance of blood is much for the same reason as it is in real history - to prevent upstarts from claiming they are king just because they have an army. This doesn't go specifically into the Iron Throne, but also to the other major houses.
if you'd read the books you'd know they specifically cite his blood as a reason for being chosen
I think what that Anon is saying is since Robert claimed the throne by blood + conquest it would've rightfully gone to Viserys since Joffrey wasn't his blood and it was still technically Targaryen blood ruling the throne
The other poster made a good point it’s that Aerys II line is attainted so anyone descended from him his no go. Robert in particular hates Targaryens despite being descended from them. Joffrey and his siblings are illegitimate so it goes Stannis, then Renly, maybe one of Robert’s bastards (if Shireen isn’t around) and maybe if you wanted to get autistic a Velaryon or Martell or something after that
His claim was by blood, Anon.
look up right by conquest you illiterate pseud
Aerys II and his line were attainted for breaching sacred laws of gods and men
Robert and all Baratheons have a claim to the throne. It's common knowledge among maesters that the Baratheon founder was a Targaryen bastard. George kinda wrote that bit long after the first book so it was never brought up in the original books.
lore wise it's a contributing factor but they also have the most recent Targaryen ancestry out of any of the houses which is the argument used for their ascendancy to the throne outside of just through conquest
I’d say the Martells would be neck-and-neck with them.
>Renly has several heirs
>Kingdom descends into civil war within a generation
>Renly has several heirs
[PRESS X TO DOUBT].tiff
> A man may prefer the taste of hippocras, yet if you set a tankard of ale before him, he will quaff it quick enough
That wasn't what we were shown
Is the tankard a bag of dicks in this analogy?
Dynasty had no meaning in Westeros. The Iron Throne didn't even have an army. Every house ruled their own lands as they saw fit and tolerated the throne because whatever moron was dumb enough to sit on it would attract the attention of all the schemers.
>Dynasty had no meaning in Westeros
yes it does
Yeah, just like all men before 20th century
t: modern historian
Dynasty and all central power groups rely on either bigger army strategy or political scheming to maintain their dominance
Most transition from one to the other over time.
With iron throne it began as bigger army with aegon and his dragons. And this continued until the dragons died off and the family weakened.
From there it was political manoeuvring that they relied on, keeping the kingdoms in positions where they couldn't overcome the targaryans, or pitted them against each other, or kept friendly beneficial relationships.
When the mad King was unable to maintain this political balance and wrecked it their Dynasty ended
His brother had gone insane burning people at the stake and shagging a witch. Don't blame him.
That came later, didn't it?
Nah
Yes. Stannis was burning statues of The Seven before he came to Storm's End
Stupid of stannis really.
Had he not gone in on the freaky religion stuff he'd probably have been really popular and supported
Instead of supporting his older brothers' claim or making an alliance with the north, he allows the Lannisters to divide and conquer and hands the Tyrells over to them.
If he teamed up with Stannis to avenge his murdered brother, it could have been based. Renly on his own is a flaming gay who doesn't have the killer instinct or know how to get the job done.
Stannis as administrator and commander and Renly as the Public face of PR would have been a dream team faction.
Yep. And with Renly to temper Stannis's autism, they likely could have come to an agreement with the North that would get them onboard at least long enough to burn out the Lannisters. Baratheon and Stark working together is a win and there is nothing Tywin could have done to stop them.
It'll be Robert's Rebellion all over again. They'll also be able rope in the riverlands through their marriage connections. Lannisters won't be able to do shit. They either give up the throne and Jofffey or theyre all dead
homosexuals don't make great kings.
>homosexuals don't make great kings.
*blocks your path*
alexander the great was a gay
He wasn't a good King. His empire split apart the moment he died because he didnt really build a state, he lead an army. He spent most of his life fricking men instead of making political marriages and raising strong sons to take his place. When he finally did get married it was some random chieftains daughter from Afganistan instead of a Persian princess or Macedonian nobleman.
Though he did try to make his Greek generals marry Persian women of equal rank hoping they'd create a new ruling class for his empire. His men probably met their Persian women like once or twice with the bulk of their time being on campaign with Alexandqueer.
No he wasn't
But Frederick The Great was one
About as good as Bobby
>About as good as Bobby
Robert was a bad king. He simply died before the horrible consequences of his misrule came to fruition. Renly would just continue the misrule.
Robert was largely a good king, given how good times were
>Robert was largely a good king, given how good times were
He was sowing catastrophe the entire time. It's like doing meth. Sure, it will be great at first but then the teeth rot away and you become and addict and everything falls apart.
He would never be able to, he didn't have any type of claim to the throne, but even if he did, it depends on who his hand of the king was. I don't remember if they say so on the show or the book. He probably would've been the same as his brother, just fricking and partying.
His hand would have probably been Mace the Ace. Truly, an era of prosperity would commence.
There would've been chaos. Every second son in the whole realm would be angling for their dad's title. His own kids would do the same. It would be the Blackfyre Rebellion times a million
the entire point of the show is about the futility of the position because everybody under you are shitflinging backstabbing morons which is interesting because there's no way to end the show easily and that's why they gave up and made the mentally moronic wheelchair bound bran the king because the writers said "frick it who cares about this fricking show"
Nobody respected him, he was just friends with the women and soft men of nobility
There's no reason to think that whatsoever. They would have all made shifty rulers, the best bet would have been if ned stayed hand of the king and maybe stopped Jeffrey from being such a shit.
Ned lacked the wit and scheming ability but was a just ruler. Stannis and Renly already sat on the small council while Robert was fricking your mom, they could have ruled.
take the meds your maester has proscribed you babbling schizo
Tyrell puppet
How’s that?
In the books, Renly is like a younger more charismatic version of Robert. He's also an arrogant schemer but still a tool who thinks popularity is everything. In the show Renly's a fop who needs his gay lover to tell him to become king.
Book Renly:
>Chad who likes bloody, sweaty men.
Show Renly:
>Prissy b***h who lets himself be dominated by his lover and his lover's sister.
I wish that Hollywood would embrace that you don't have to act like a woman to like men.
>I wish that Hollywood would embrace that you don't have to act like a woman to like men.
Homosex is gay
and gay isnt inherently feminine. Renly shouldve been a bear
Daily reminder that Henry Cavill should've been Renly. They really fricked the casting. The show started going downhill in season 2, they just had enough good material to draw from for most people to excuse it. His death is supposed to be the gut-punch of Clash of Kings, not make you go "literally who?"
Renly is only a year older than Theon, he needed someone young to portray the smug princeling barely old enough to remember the war that put his family on the throne.
Shutup homosexual.
relax
The reason gays weren't respected in medieval hierarchy isn't homophobia it's because there's no reliable way to confirm their progeny is actually theirs. No one would ever believe Margery's kids were his because she was sucking every dick in King's Landing
Good peacetime ruler, bad wartime one.
He didnt even support his older brother. Why would anyone support him?
No. He didn't want to do things for the realm, he did things for vanity and to entertain himself. He was just a heavy hedonist with the benefit of not being as autistically coarse as his older brother.
Faegon will marry Shireen are rule justly.
I could accept this
What happened to his face?
What happened fo him looking more practical than aesthetic? I thought he had short hair and was raised to be humble? I don't see him strutting into Westeros adorning full, ruby-encrusted armor and wearing his hair down like an old king.
the pic with Shireen would be after he's come into his power and wears a king's regal look
Yeah, I prefer the more practical look and don't understand why more artists don't depict him like that.
Yes, this is more like it. I'm not even FAegon-gay but the "humble boy-king raised in exile, living close with the poor" is pretty appealing.
I think there's section in the sample chapters where they discuss how he should appear. I know they talk about armor specifically.
From his talks with Tyrion he didnt sound especially humble though
I don't remember, was he bragging about sucking on Septa Lemore's fat udders or something?
He's an entitled little shit who wants to be king already.
He hadn't even considered that Daenerys might reject him until Tyrion brought it up and he reacted badly to the possibility.
This left a bad impression, but a lot of that was probably due to it being from Tyrion's perspective.
I think you're right, he may be a kid and come off a bit bratty, but in the grand scheme he probably is a bettter choice than Dany, ignoring his dubious blood
Everyone is a better choice than Dany. Her entire journey has been one blunder after another
It's fine when the plot just hands her the solution again and again
He was humble enough to take Tyrion's advice, and to save him after he fell into the Rhoyne.
>adult Shireen
Hooba hooba
Why didn't anyone ask for her hand yet?
>opposite sides of their faces fricked up
>make a baby with a normal face
pottery
best outcome after stannis just winning
I agree.
I'm a Stannis man, even if the Baratheons aren't my favorite house.
>my favorite house
Its not up to you. Stannis is the king by rights. >“It is not a question of wanting. The throne is mine, as Robert’s heir. That is law. After me, it must pass to my daughter, unless Selyse should finally give me a son.” He ran three fingers lightly down the table, over the layers of smooth hard varnish, dark with age. “I am king. Wants do not enter into it. I have a duty to my daughter. To the realm. Even to Robert. He loved me but little, I know, yet he was my brother. The Lannister woman gave him horns and made a motley fool of him. She may have murdered him as well, as she murdered Jon Arryn and Ned Stark. For such crimes there must be justice. Starting with Cersei and her abominations. But only starting. I mean to scour that court clean.
I said I'm still a Stannis man
It's part of Stannis's autism that it's not enough to support him and his cause, you have to do it in the way he wants to for the reasons he perceive as correct. Only Davos is meek enough to accept it, and only because he has to justify to himself the death of four of his sons
Well said.
The way you phrase it implies you have a choice in the matter.
of course I have a choice
I can bend the knee or be destroyed
Submitting to the sword is the same as submitted to his authority. You can live.
>Only Davos is meek enough to accept it
Calling Davos meek is just stupid. He literally knows that some of the shit he says, while true, would get him killed if stannis wasn't so based. And he's lucky Manderly didn't do the same
>as she murdered Jon Arryn
Is there anyone alive who knows that it was Lysa who killed Jon? Except for Littlefinger, maybe. I wonder if that would end up helping the Lannisters in the books, if the news spread that a batshit crazy Tully was behind the hand's murder. Maybe they could spin the whole incest thing as a Stark lie to cover up the murder carried out to place Ned as the hand of the king, in a plot between him and his sister-in-law.
Sansa knows right? Or is that show only?
He'll get torched by Dany when she goes mad
I've been playing with Aegon and married him to Arya
That's gross, no Targaryen has ever wedded a St*rk.
>gross, no Targaryen has ever wedded a St*rk.
Come on, son
I played Roose and fathered many children on both Arya and Sansa.
Speaking of, you should all check out the Merged mod some anon is putting together over in /vst/, it's playable right now and he's been merging a ton of submods that never worked together into a single one, even replacing the original mod download and install. This both creating something new as well as much more convenient
https://mega.nz/folder/5t41kIgJ#HzMxXcl25DgQpSR1hwHo5Q
what game is that?
Hearts of Iron 2
It's Crusader Kings 2.
It's free on steam and the 10 years of dlc are easily pirated.
it makes the most sense. What does Stannis actually care about hating the Targaryens? if he believed FAegon to be genuine and to humbly marry his daughter and become joint heir while Stannis rules what would be his actual issue with it?
Based
most likely will marry Arianne Martell.
but it's good to dream..
>a summer child
>making for the best king when Winter is coming
>WINDS, you say? Yes, still working. Finally finished a clutch of Cersei chapters that were giving me fits. Now I am wrestling with Jaime and Brienne. The work proceeds, though not as fast as many of you would like.
In the time between the last book and now, the entirety of the HBO adaption ran its course.
I'm glad he's not writing any more books. Dance and Feast sucked ass.
>Feast
100% filtered. Feast is the best book.
In reality he hasn't written a word in 5+ years.
>Book Loras is an exalted tourney knight who also shows his ability on the battlefield and who Jaime Lannister himself respects the skill of, a man that few would think gay, to the point where Littlefinger shows how much he knows about the realm by hinting at him being gay. Once Renly dies he joins the King's Guard because the light of his life has gone out but as far as the people think he's just one of the best knights in the kingdom and so belongs on the King's Guard
>show Loras has fricked every stableboy in the kingdom and after Renly dies he keeps fricking more and more people, with everyone just joking about him being a gay without ever respecting him as a knight
I still don't understand how D&D dodged being skewered for their obvious homophobia when ruining two great gay characters.
Has it even been confirmed he's a homo? I've read the books a few times and I don't even remember that many subtle implications.
There's definitely never been a "lol they're gay lovers and frick all day long!" confirmation, but there's enough hints and innuendo to make it obvious. I remember there were people on here reening about the show "turning" them gay when they first showed up, though. That was quite funny.
Well they did turn Renly a bit gay. He's supposed to be a Robert clone in the books.
Assuming that's Bloodraven?
i hate d&d so much its unreal
Doesn't Loras get his face fricked up with hot oil while attacking some castle in the books so he's basically Dr Doom?
Yeah he's basically suicidal and Cersei hates him for paranoid reasons so she endorses him rushing into a boob trapped island
Allegedly. This is unconfirmed. Could be a trick.
At this point it's not known if he's surviving the oil or whether he's even hurt. The last thing heard about him is a letter saying he got burnt by oil and is dying, basically. The big question is whether that's just a Tyrell ruse or not. Making Cersei think Loras is dying and so can't come to his sister's aid in a trial by combat would be a clever play, for example.
>tfw this was over a decade ago at this point and we'll never find out whether he's really dying or not
Dumb and Dumber cut this plot because it was too close to Jaime's character arc of losing your identity via disfiguration
>Robert was the true steel. Stannis is pure iron, black and hard and strong, yes, but brittle, the way iron gets. He'll break before he bends. And Renly, that one, he's copper, bright and shiny, pretty to look at but not worth all that much at the end of the day.
Renlysisters... it's over
Did he even know the adult brothers well, or was he just spitballing? It's just one man's opinion. ASOIAF is all about subjectivity.
He didn't, that's just Martin talking through the character and giving information about the Baratheon brothers
He knew Robert
1 out of 3.
>Jon Connington meets Ser Loras
>Jon Con wolf-whistles at Loras
>Jon Con: "you've got an ass like my destrier, boy"
>Loras: "you're not bad yourself old man. I hope that greyscale has already spread to your genitals, I'd love to get my hands on that hard stuff"
>Jon Con: "why is your face fricked up? did you get oil thrown at you from the ramparts of Dragonstone?"
It's me GRRM. I'm just doing test screenings of Winds here on Cinemaphile
The Tyrells bumbling their way through the books because they have a huge army is hilarious.
>pick wrong pretender to the throne (first to die, although that could be a blessing)
>forgiven by Lannisters and invited to wed the current king to your family
>duped by Cersei's moustache-twirling villain plots
>just post your empire outside of King's Landing and stop grain shipments to get the outcome you want
EZ
makes wonder why they weren't calling the shots in the past
They border nearly as many other Kingdoms as the Riverlands, so they've always faced many opponents
This, and
Internal division. Tyrell bannermen hate the Tyrells (as they should).
>pick wrong pretender to the throne
They didn't pick wrong, though. There was no way to get Stannis to marry Margaery and Joffrey was an incest freak they didn't want to muddy their waters with until they had to. Their aim was always to get their own blood on the throne for the next generation, while controlling the current king. That could only be done with Renly, not with Robb or Stannis.
>There was no way to get Stannis to marry Margaery
Stannis isn't having a male heir any time and Shireen hasn't been promised to anyone? See Loras apparently ran laps around his family and persuaded them to throw in with his boyfriend, so he could spend more time with him. It made logistically, since Stormlands and Reach could easily merge their armies and indue pressure on the other regions, but it's still stupid that they broke the law in every way possible (there's absolutely no justification for supporting Renly from a legal standpoint).
>(there's absolutely no justification for supporting Renly from a legal standpoint)
plus it sets a dangerous precedent
In the long-term, however, it's an extremely dangerous political theory for the stability of the Westerosi monarchy. Renly has the most troops at that moment, but there's no way to be sure that Renly or his descendant, or his descendant's descendant will have the same numerical advantage in the future. If his argument is accepted as binding precedent, Renly will forever have to remain on his guard lest someone out there strike while he is unaware since it's now accepted that a strongman can legitimately overthrow a sitting king. Even if he succeeded in holding the Iron Throne for the duration of his natural life, the odds are good that his death will set off a new civil war as each of the Great Houses assesses the new balance of power.
Inheritance by blood is not a political principle that most of us accept today, but in its time it promised stability and a predictable consistency in the transition of power.
The danger to Renly here is that he will have succeeded in retaking Robert's throne, only to find himself in the same bind as before, only with Tyrells demanding royal patronage appointments in return for Tyrell financing of royal debts, becoming the true power behind the Iron Throne and eventually sparking conflict between insiders and outsiders. Such conflicts over patronage and power could easily lead to wars of independence as outsiders come to view the central authority as corrupt and no longer an honest broker for their interests - and the more decentralized the monarchy is, the harder it would be to stop them.
it's a dangerous precedent for Renly to embrace, given that (had Renly succeeded on these terms), Robb Stark at the very least would have led a largely successful movement for autonomy (Balon Greyjoy probably wouldn't have gotten the same offer), netting him two out of Seven Kingdoms.
>They didn't pick wrong, though
how did renly work out?
sansa knows
>how did renly work out?
Literally nobody in-universe could've ever expected Stannis pulling a shadow baby out of his ass. Renly would've crushed the others without that happening.
It's pretty obvious that Stannis was going to crush Renly at Storm's End.
In what world do Stannis' 5000 men defeat Renly's 20000? Stannis couldn't even defeat the gold cloaks with 20000 men.
The world of reality.
My own suspicion is that Stannis had something very different in mind when he came down to Storm’s End: with less than 400 horse, he’s certainly not planning to meet Renly head-on in a traditional clash of knightly charges. Rather, given what we learn of Stannis’ army from the Prologue, Stannis has an overwhelming advantage when it comes to infantry (especially archers), and has had time to construct fieldworks. I think that Stannis planned for something like Crécy, in which the force of Renly’s cavalry would be blunted by earthworks and his disciplined infantry, leaving them vulnerable to his archers.
And had this battle taken place, it’s highly likely that Renly would have complied, because the inexperienced younger brother had left himself badly exposed and in need of a quick resolution, as Catelyn notes:
>“Ned would surely have prevailed upon Robert to bring up his whole force, to encircle Stannis and besiege the besiegers. That choice Renly had denied himself in his headlong rush to come to grips with his brother. He had outdistanced his supply lines, left food and forage days behind…he must come to battle soon, or starve.”
Moreover, when we see Renly’s command tent, we see that he’s planning an aggressive attack, and ignoring his best commander, by offering:
>“Lord Mathis, you shall lead the center of my main battle. Bryce, you’ll have the left. The right is mine. Lord Estermont, you shall command the reserve…the greatest glory by rights belongs to the greatest knight. Ser Loras shall strike the first blow.”
Even Mace Tyrell, no one’s idea of a great general, knew to put Randall Tarly in charge of his vanguard – and without his experience, there’s no way a glory-hungry Loras in his first battle is going to see a trap coming.
Nice post.
Still lots of /got/ to discuss.
There's no indication that Stannis is competent enough to pull off a Crecy or some other serious trap. His only major battle, Blackwater, was plagued by the same frick-ups you note in Renly (overly aggressive attack, inexperienced commander in Imry Florent). Stannis could have probably bloodied Renly well, but it's doubtful he would have won.
Stannis defeated the Iron Fleet at sea and held Storm's End against the power of the Reach for a year. He is one of the most successful military commanders in Westeros.
Naval Battles and Sieges do not tell us about Stannis' capabilities in a land battle. Blackwater was the closest to a major battle, and it was a colossal mistake. I like Stannis, but I think his tactical capability is seriously overrated.
What about when he smashed Mance Rayder at the Wall when he was outnumbered 20 to 1?
Smashing beat dogs with a cavalry charge is not a major engagement. Most of the wildlings were women and children, while the rest were undisciplined and wholly foriegn to mass cavalry charges. Not comprable to Westerosi knights.
I'm sensing a couple FRICKING TARG SHITS
>I FOUGHT 50 SEA RAIDERS AND BEAT THEM ALL BY MYSELF! TAKE THAT, SWADIAN homosexualS, I'M KING!
A KHERGITE HORDE IN AN OPEN FIELD
I fight for the NORDS.
Sea raiders are way stronger though. Wildlings are basically looter tier, not even good enough to be forest bandits. No doubt 100 Heavy Armor Swadian cavalry could beat 2000 looters
Looks like you chose to ignore he subdued Great Wyk.
Blackwater wasn't a mistake, he only lost due to a literal deus ex of 60,000 Tyrell foot and Tywin's host somehow sneaking up on him
We don't have any info on Great Wyk, so we can't seriously judge him on that. The 60,000 Tyrell footmen sneaking up on him was a result of him not replacing his scouts that were killed in the kingswood and instead marching on King's Landing blindly, a serious mistake.
We know it's the largest of the Iron Islands and seemed sufficient for his enemies to justly judge him on it and fear his capabilities. Seems a likelier estimate than yours.
I'm not estimating things, I'm going off of the only serious battle we see Stannis in, unlike you.
>I'm not estimating things,
It's literally all you're doing while ignoring quotes and the in-universe characters who know better. It's amusing, really.
What I am doing is recounting the facts of the battle of the Blackwater. The in-universe characters have never met Stannis in battle, except Victarion, who is an idiot. They can't judge his abilities as a commander in the manner that the readers who see Stannis' battles first-hand can.
Hard to judge Stannis off of Blackwater when we never see him in command there. You're making estimations based on what we do see.
He is in overall command, moron. WTF am I estimating?
Everything, dumb homosexual. You seem to doubt his capacity to lead a defensive battle when its the type he's best known for, you ignore his victories when his opponents speak of them in warning, and you judge his one defeat despite never seeing his orders. You're a brainlet, and while that is amusing it stops being entertaining in time.
Seethe, moron. He's never fought a defensive battle that we know of before (sieges aren't battles), and you're estimating his skill entirely on word of mouth. His one defeat is also his most major engagement on land, and thus it's fair to judge his skill based on it. He's the commander of his army, and we see how he puts incompetent men like Imry Florent directly under him. If the orders that caused his frick-ups like the scout issue were because of his stupid underlings, that doesn't bode well for his own competence. I'm sorry you're favorite fictional character doesn't live up to his reputation, but that's how he's written.
>sieges aren't battles
lol ok moron
>sieges aren't battles
Goddamn that’s some hard cope over losing the argument.
>(sieges aren't battles)
Yes, there is a serious difference between a siege and a pitched battle. Stannis is a very impressive siege defender. But again, Blackwater indicates he is less skilled at land warfare.
The river battle indicates he's less skilled at land warfare than the defensive battle with fortifications would indicate he is with a defensive battle with fortifications?
That's some hard seething you're doing, anon.
Yes, the river battle (both a part of land warfare, and only a river battle because Stannis failed to encircle the city and instead assaulted the mud gate with only his vanguard) is more indicative of Stannis' skill at land warfare than a siege, especialy one where the enemy host did not attempt to storm the castle. Not a the same as a defensive battle.
are you homosexuals talking the tv show or the books? book stannis is top-tier military commander, only loses king's landing due to bad luck (read: the author)
Conquering Great Wyk indicates he's a skilled land commander.
>The 60,000 Tyrell footmen sneaking up on him was a result of him not replacing his scouts that were killed in the kingswood and instead marching on King's Landing blindly, a serious mistake.
aka the deus ex
since 60,000 foot sneaking up on 16,000 mounted knights and freeriders through ashes since the kingswood by the river had been burnt out for days is an asspull that GRRM needed for Stannis to lose
I know it's an asspull, but the asspull makes Stannis seem incompetent by virtue of not having enough scouts. I don't like how GRRM wrote it, but that's how he wrote it.
What's bizarre is it's incompatible with previous Stannis canon, like how they didn't establish and fieldworks to guard their camp while waiting on the fleet.
>Naval Battles and Sieges do not tell us about Stannis' capabilities in a land battle
You'd be surprised naval translates pretty damn well to land and vice versa
What? Did you even read the books? Him and Tarly are portrayed as being basically the most competent battlefield commanders out there based on the last war. Maybe next to Ned and Blackfish. Literally everybody is afraid of him and know that he's dangerous and the only reason he doesn't frick everybody's shit is because he has no army
The problem is the mismatch between his reputation and what we see, and that's really because of George. The frick-ups at Blackwater (not replacing the scouts, not encircling the city, putting Imry Florent as admiral) were serious and uncharacteristic of Stannis' reputation. But George needed Stannis to lose, and so he made Stannis make these mistakes. Judging characters by what we see rather than word of mouth, Stannis appears to be significantly less skilled as a commander, though this may simply be because of plot reasons.
He was among the best commanders of Rob’s Rebellion. Robert sent him to Storm’s End because he was the only man he trusted to be made of steely enough stuff to hold it. Then he, not even being a naval commander of any note, absolutely embarrassed the Iron Fleet.
>Robert sent him to Storm’s End because he was the only man he trusted
Stanniskeks believe this
Robert envied Stannis and even hated him a little for his worthiness. He sent him there for two reasons - that he thought he could hold it, but hoped that he wouldn’t. When he succeeded there, he sent him to capture Dragonstone, then essentially exiled him there on the barest of excuses.
>Robert envied Stannis
He did. He also didn’t feel threatened by Renly in the slightest, which is why he gave him Storm’s End. Rob knew Renly was weak.
damn that's a good post
Good points. Especially that they're supported with quotes from the books.
Stannis won at Fair Isle and subdued all of Great Wyk, the largest of the Iron Islands
Plus he held Storm's End under siege for a year and took Dragonstone from the Targaryen loyalists
He seems to have experienced
you fricking wrecked that anon
TRVE VNDERSTANDER
Fantastic analysis.
>In what world do Stannis' 5000 men defeat Renly's 20000?
I'm just pointing this out because it bugs me. Being practical and drawing from history, Stannis wouldn't actually need to fight to win in the short term. Due to the strategic situation, Stannis could just sit tight in his fortified siege camp and wait until Renly left. And Stannis would have a fortified camp for the siege by that time. GRRM apparently doesn't know about field fortifications. Renly's 20,000 cavalry have very little supplies due to the situation before the battle. They would have to dismount to attack Stannis' camp and his 5000 fanatics could hold on defensively for a couple days until Renly runs out of supplies and has to retreat back to Bitterbridge.
btfo
based
Catalyn specifically wishes that she would have tried to wed Robb to Margaery in the books, so it's not like it wasn't ever on the table. It actually probably would have been the best outcome for basically everyone
Stannis doesn't like the Tyrells because they besieged him. He's also married to a Florent who thinks their House should rule the Reach
The Tyrells knew this and had no reason to side with him as they have nothing to gain at best, but have plenty to gain with Renly
Too bad they made him and his lover into prancing feminine stereotypes. I always got the impression in the books that Renly was a thick, black-haired Baratheon. And that Loras was a bit of a fop but he never started talking about interior decorating for frick's sake.
They were total bros and kept it on the down-low.
>be lord of the Stormlands
>Stannis raises his banners and makes his claim to the kingdom
>Renly raises his banners and makes his claim to the kingdom
Do you side with:
A. The man who held Storm's End for a year, the rightful ruler of Westeros by the laws of primogeniture
B. The little brother who has been partying it up in King's Landing for the last 15 years
I never understand why people sided with Renly in the first case. Seems extremely illegal.
It’s a plot from highgarden. They don’t want miss the boat as storm’s end, winterfell, lannister influence is getting bigger.
Stormlords were sworn directly to the lord of Storm's End. Not following Renly would have meant breaking their oaths of vassalage
>declare for stannis
>rest of the stormlords and the reach declare for renly
>be surrounded by them
I cant blame them for going with renly, stannis only had some sworn houses and mercs while renly had two kingdoms behind him
he planned to use the sun to his advantage since they were going to attack in the morning, making renly's army blind. iirc only randyll tarly caught up to that but he knew renly wouldnt listen to him
I just remembered where I got the sun idea, based cantuse does it again
https://cantuse.wordpress.com/2014/12/01/teeth-of-the-rising-sun/
great post by the way
Remeber that Stannis was bringing a foreign religion in to Westeros. Following the lord of light instead of the seven makes him evil to most Westerosi, it's like finding out that the next prince of England worships Satan. Religion is as important as proper lineage to these people which justify going against Stannis the Mannis.
The fact that he is unpopular amongst the other lords dont help him.
I don't think it would mean people thought hes worshippimg Satan, beacuse then they would actually have an idea how that religion works
I think it would be more of an English King in 13th century saying hes Buddhist
Little homosexual told Ned he could have a hundred swords at his side at a days notice - but when the time came he just ran away.
I wouldn't get a boner with the state of her breasts either
the only true king is the one who sits the seastone chair
>drunk pirates, kinds of of barren rocks
Worst "great" house.
sounds like a poor green lander lost a few daughters to my last raid heh heh
>do nothing but steal and pillage peasants
>army shows up to kick your ass
>run away and repeat
>boast you're a great house
Sad
why do the other houses tolerate the iron islanders?
why dont they just wipe them out?
The Black folk of westeros
What the FRICK is that chair made of?
He wouldn't have been able to continue the line though. He doesn't like pancakes.
This has to be bait. Rob was the dumbest motherfricker and literally got murdered for being a snake and destroying all of his Father's allyships
I agree.
He has no idea how to rule, he likes to play king but he would be a total puppet
Throne without a targaryen is worthless
They would have saved the realm if not for Cersei going full schizo
Margaery could've saved Joffrey if it weren't for his b***h mother
The last three Joffrey scenes he:
>laughed his ass off about Catelyn dying and called her a b***h and ordered Walder Frey to send Robb's decomposing head so he could feed it to Sansa
>chopped up a book from Tyrion
>pissed himself laughing so hard at a bunch of midgets debasing themselves
>ordered his uncle to be his cup bearer and kneel
care to back up your claim?
Bros... I just the sample Arianne chapters for Winds and what a dumb prostitute.
She's going to bring down our boy FAegon by sucking and fricking him so she can be queen. How can we stop this?
This show is fricking gay. its about a group of survivors killing each other in a zombie apocalypse with the window dressing that they're rulers of a country, it isn't real political drama
I know that people defend seasons 1-4, and they're good but the shoe version of the battle of Blackwater was a serious letdown.
The naval engagements later in the battle with ships accidentally interlocking... The bridge of chained ships that Stannis supporters use to cross over the Blackwater... The arrival of pretend-Renly shaking the Stormlanders and causing some of them to switch sides in the chaos...
Shit was cash
Is Stannis be ok guys? I'm worried about him allying with sneaky Iron Bank israelites.
>homosexual - disgusting freak
>no loyalty to law - ignores succession law
>no loyalty to family - ignores the rights of his older brother and refuses to fight with him against the common enemy
>no loyalty to custom or tradition - Hires some b***h on his personal guard
"Great" choice for a king right there. He got what he fricking deserved.
he's a FAAAaaaAAAAAAG
Although that lesbian thing, dat Natalia Dormant... it's not bad. You think she's a dyke in real life?
>hey, there is a lizard that crept up on your helmet!
>oh shit really? can you swat it away
>yes, let me just get my hammer real quick
Has there been any progress on Winds at all, or should I just count the books as dead in the water at this point?
Preston estimates the book is two-thirds done... No doubt GRRM will fall back into a slump towards the end when he realizes he has to break up the book yet again (like AFfC and ADoD), and that he is in no way closer to wrapping up the story...
That shit isn't ever going to be done. He's wasted the better part of a decade already.
sever whatever emotional connection you have right now
that fat old frick doesnt care anymore
Honestly Stannis should've just taken King's Landing at the start of A Clash of Kings. He could put Cersei and her kids to death before Tywin makes it back to the city and then his claim is the strongest.
>homosexual
No.
I’m not looking forward to the Others March south at all. I love the series for the politics and intrigue, and it’s all on a giant timer to have to deal with some moron zombie army just stomping everyone and negating any political maneuvering cause lolmagic. Although it will be sweet to see Ramsay getting BTFO and shitting himself
think GRRM should've left it for the end of the series as a cliffhanger. Like the realm is at a an unsteady peace after years of war and whoever gets to be on the throne at the end
and then the Others attack the wall
series over and GRRM tease about doing a sequel series to explore what happens next but dies and never touches it (like Frank Herbert did)
would have been the best possible ending
I could not care less for the Others and Dany's middle-eastern escapades (and eventual expedition to Westeros). As you said, it negates all the build-up we've had across four books and cheapens the whole thing as "muh hero Jon Snuh defeats zombies because he is chosen one".
I'd be fine for the series to end with a showdown between Stannis, FAegon, Tyrells, Martells, etc. whoever is left standing.
Aegon is literally the best choice for the Iron Throne.
>Stannis
A gay with a daughter for heir who will be burned
>Jon
Bastard.
>Dany
moron and woman
Jon isn't a bastard
Rhaegar was married, and it wasnt to Lyanna
You going to tell me that Rhaegar doesn't sound like the exact sort of Targ that would want to bring back Polygamy as they practiced before?
Wasn't he even naming his kids after Aegon and his sisters?
>You going to tell me that Rhaegar doesn't sound like the exact sort of Targ that would want to bring back Polygamy as they practiced before?
No.
>Wasn't he even naming his kids after Aegon and his sisters?
Who knows if he truly was thinking of marrying them, I mean Visenya was the eldest sister yet Rhaegar named his eldest daughter after Rhaenys
>No.
Bullshit
I doubt any High Septon would find whatever arrangement Rhaegar had with Lyanna to be legal, since polygamy was abs big part of the conflict between the faith and Maegor.
The High Septon literally does what the Crown tells him.
That's why the High Sparrow was such an aberration.
>The High Septon literally does what the Crown tells him.
No. They resisted against Aenys, Maegor and wanted to do the same against Jaehaerys
Historically they resisted but the Targs managed to subjugate them in the end.
can't wait for the CK3 mod
>moron and woman
But you repeat yourself
Same thread, same image. Pathetic
The only (recognized) natural son of Robert Baratheon should be King.
>ahem, lords and ladies of Westeros, dearest jannies... I stand here before you to proclaim the realm's newest Hand, my very own grandfather Lord Alester Florent
>now execute every Tyrell shitc**t on the continent
Based House Florent wins the game of thrones? I knew they had it in them.
Cringe. Based Garlan the Gallant is gonna take your lands soon
Garlan has to deal with Ironborn, he'll probably be killed by Harras or Euron. Shame cause Garlan is the only based Tyrell.
>Euron is invading Oldtown? Activate ze self-insert.
I have a feeling Sam is gonna 360 no scope Euron kek
He's probably just going to be the pov for what is going on, we already know that the Ironborn ruse to raid oldtown was foiled when they were discovered trying to infiltrate. Maybe he will even give us a second pov for the Battle of Blood
CHADmure would be the best king and you homosexuals all know it
He's a moronic, glory hunting coward.
STOP THIS SHITPOSTING IN THE NAME OF YOUR KING
Well that depends, what exact laws and policies would he have given if he had won the throne?
Stannis at least sought to cleanse the court of corruption, bring the Lannisters to heel and rule justly. What exactly did Renly want outside of the throne for the sake of throne?
it's been a while since I've seen the show and I haven't read the books
Renly would be too busy fricking and sucking to rule the realm. But that's okay because he'd have Littlefinger as his hand.
Why couldn't they just let him stay in Winterfell. That's it, end of his story. No more appearances he's done
Nah. He was charismatic but spineless. He’d have just been a new version of Bobby, only minus the insane amounts of martial prowess.
and drinking
Nah, that’d probably follow him ascending to the throne. Cersei basically started drinking heavily for the same reason Bobby did - to hide from the pressures of the throne. I bet Renly would do the same.
I wish we were talking about the Wars of the Roses and not fatty's bastardised version of it.
Would they have made good kings?
We'll never know.
>For God’s sake let us sit upon the ground and tell sad stories of the death of kings: how some have been deposed, some slain in war, some haunted by the ghosts they have deposed, some poisoned by their wives, some sleeping killed.
All murdered, for within the hollow crown that rounds the mortal temples of a king keeps death his court
Honestly, imagine sitting down and thinking you're going to do better than Shakespeare.
They cute. Their uncle killed them right?
Maybe. Coulda just been propaganda
friendly reminder that the Blackfyre Rebellions, Bloodraven and the fall of the targs are the martell's fault
wtf I love the martells now
Kys dornish are only for breeding
What a homosexual
Is crazy how that fatfrick is so afraid of backlash for his own ending that he's not going to bother with it
God I really need to read the book, Is Stannis that much different in the book? is he even still alive? every time he would show on screen, I had the impression that he was fighting a war he couldn't win, between never gaining Jon's man and losing to brian of fricking tarth
He’s very different in the book. Very, very different. For starters, it’s pretty clear from the outset that he doesn’t see himself as Azor Ahi, but he’s perfectly cool with playing along if it keeps a blood witch on his team. In the books, Stannis is basically either an atheist or simply indifferent about the gods.
Stannis is the sole reason the first several seasons are worth watching
He had a kickass soundtrack too
Isn't that the Hound's song?
>When she got to the part where she threw Joffrey’s sword into the middle of the Trident, Renly Baratheon began to laugh. The king bristled. “Ser Barristan, escort my brother from the hall before he chokes.”
>Lord Renly stifled his laughter. “My brother is too kind. I can find the door myself.” He bowed to Joffrey. “Perchance later you’ll tell me how a nine-year-old girl the size of a wet rat managed to disarm you with a broom handle and throw your sword in the river.” As the door swung shut behind him, Ned heard him say, “Lion’s Tooth,” and guffaw once more.
I wish we could’ve gotten this
I love Joffrey's stupid sword names
Post dickysseurs.
>legitimise Edric Storm
>marry Margaery to him
>reveal incest
>exile Lannisters
>everyone wins
Was that so fricking hard?
He couldn't even frick his Queen, which was his duty
Too bad he died of monkeypox.
???
It overwhelmingly infects gay people
>Stupid, impulsive and a homosexual
>best king
Someone who is willing to fight their own brother(a rightful heir) over a throne that he has no claim to, will never be a good king.
He is willing to ignore and bend rules of gods and men when it fits him.
All he needed to fricking do was back Stannis the menace and be his right hand man, live a lavish life and have almost as much say in how things are ran as Stannis himself since Stannis is much more rational and reasonable than Robert was.
>Stannis is much more rational and reasonable than Robert was
>"Ser Anon, you came just in time for daily stake burning!"
I miss watching GoT with Cinemaphile
>golden company has friends in the reach
>the reach backs renly
>splits the baratheons
>turns a rout into a shitfight
>weakens realm ahead of aegon invasion
if melisandre hadn't of done it, randyll tarly would've
Was this the worst crown in the show?
>tries to start a civil war with his brother for no reason
Not a great start to your rule Renly
he is a limp-wristed homosexual, but I actually agree
Stannis was quite literally an apostate. It was the duty of every knight to do him ill and uphold Renly's rightful claim to the throne. And no amount of autistic screeching is going ot change that.
For me? It's King Robb the Young Wolf! THE KING IN THE NORH!
For me? It's the Thenns
For me? Its you killing yourself.
What do you want to see happen in TWoW or ADoS? I don't mean character outcomes but more events in-universe.
>Greyscale epidemic somewhere in Westerns (King's Landing when Jon Connington and co. storm through the gates, or Shireen's greyscale accidentally flaring up again)
>Vale knights finally march through the Bloody Gates and pour out into Westeros
>Reach and Stormlands POVs for Iron Island and Golden Company invasions
I want to know what the frick is up with valyria
That would be a net drag on the story.
It's only meant to be "spoooooky place that has the ruins of the old empire, and you can't get answers because you die if you go there unless you're super epic". Unless you dedicated an entire book to it, you'd never get a satisfying answer.
I dont care
the story doesnt interest me as much as the world does
t. GRRM
Those, plus the Battle of Blood, Battle of Ice, Battle of Fire, and Battle of Steel.
I feel like at this point the fans have guessed 90% of the more important and intriguing twists so the fatso sees no point in continuing
I'm still of the mind that GRRM realized he couldn't close out the story in less than two books. That is, unless you leave the Other invasion and Danearys' conquest as cliffhangers.
If things stay at the same pace as Clash of Kings and Storm of Swords, then at most FAegon will have taken King's Landing by the end of the new book. Stannis will have quelled the North and returned it to a Stark Lord Protector, the Martell's will have shown their hand, and the Littlefinger will start moving the Vale in the direction that he wants.
BIG EVENTS, but at the same time, they barely move the needle. You can't wrap up the entire story with just A Dream of Spring.
He got off on shocking/ surprising his readers but now they've figured out everything he had planned so he's lost the high he almost entirely wrote for
>Mad that the audience picked up on what you're setting up
I don't understand writers
are you homosexual?
I'm pledging for King Renly because we need a King who sucks wiener and eats ass and gets fricked in his ass with wieners and eats cum.
In terms of his morality, fairness and charisma yes
In terms of strength of will and personal intelligence (ability to not be mislead and controlled), willingness to do whatever is necessary ie cruel and immoral acts. No