How did the fire nation conquer the earth kingdom but not the northern water tribe?

How did the fire nation conquer the earth kingdom but not the northern water tribe?

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  1. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    The never bothered that the only reason. Even with Anng's help the Fire Nation manages to breach the city proper in only 2 days, had another day passed the Northern Water Tribe would have been fully occupied over in only 3 days..

  2. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    probably because of how the two are structured differently.

    earth kingdom seems like a large number of small statelets (like king boomie or Kyoshi) under the nominal control of the emperor in Ba Sing Se (with Ba Sing Se being conquered around the same time as the big Northern water tribe attack). ANd the fire nation was slowly conquering those statelets.

    While the norther water tribe seems to be all concentrated around the one city. So there arent really statelets around a large landmass like the earth kingdom that can be conquered piecemeal.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      really wouldve loved to see more sociopolitical strucutres in avatar. dont care for republic shit but just the way the different races are split and how each of them practice governance is very interesting to me. also is the earth king really an "emperor"?

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >also is the earth king really an "emperor"?
        Seemed like, because Omashu at least had its own king.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        If not an Emperor he was a King of Kings

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Check out the prequel novels: Two about Kyoshi and two about Yangchen. There's a surprisingly substantial emphasis on geopolitics across the four of them.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        The comics touch upon it. Also Korra, even if it was flawed, still did a good job laying out the sociopolitical structure of postwar Avatar and would've did better if they weren't concerned about who Korra was banging that day.

  3. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Never got why the northern air temple wasnt shown in this map. triggers my ocd. Could have just made a few of the Northern mountains on the big continent white.

  4. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    They didn't try. The NWT was so out of touch they thought the FN was still using uniforms that were 85 years out of date. They literally haven't seen an FN soldier in over a human lifetime.

  5. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >How did the fire nation conquer the earth kingdom but not the northern water tribe?
    Priorities. The Earth Kingdom has the largest landmass in the world that took them 100 years to reach it's capital. Fertile land and natural resources. The Fire Nation would logically put that at a higher priority. The North pole has frick all of value in it, so naturally the Fire Nation would put it at the backburner until the Earth Kingdom was dealt with.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      The never bothered that the only reason. Even with Anng's help the Fire Nation manages to breach the city proper in only 2 days, had another day passed the Northern Water Tribe would have been fully occupied over in only 3 days..

      They didn't try. The NWT was so out of touch they thought the FN was still using uniforms that were 85 years out of date. They literally haven't seen an FN soldier in over a human lifetime.

      Why did they bother with the Southern Tribe?

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        It was an insanely weak and isolated tribe with a couple of powerful benders and warriors. Crippling them without any casualties would be a major strategic victory

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        easier target.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Presumably because the SWT was still fighting, while the NWT had basically just decided to turtle up and hope they were ignored.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >Why did they bother with the Southern Tribe?
        A hunch, most likely. With Sozin never recovering the Avatar among the Air Temples, it was probably his idea and later Azulon's that the Avatar was dead and probably just picked the SWT as a starting point to look for the next one. But after never finding anything, they just abandoned any interest in the Water Tribes and focused on the more immediate valuable target.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Southern Water Tribe was simply too pathetic to leave alone I guess? I mean look at their village at the end, did it even break into double digits? Plus with how isolated it was it couldn't even get any wealth from trading with the EK like the Northern Water Tribe could.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Why not just exterminate them?

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Why bother? The Southern Water Tribe is basically doomed anyway, they were not going to come back barring a miracle, with how isolated they were.
            My headcanon is that the men going away did it because they knew that their home was doomed and they wanted to at least try and hurt the nation that had spelled their doom.

            • 3 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              Because coming back every couple of years to raid them is a pain.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                They'd been reduced to not teachers, they lived in a single frankly pathetic village with no adult men around. They weren't going to bounce back from that, they were doomed.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Then you could at least carry off the women to be sex slaves for your soldiers.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                sex with a water tribe woman is little better than having it with a shark-manatee, These are fire bender soldiers they won't sully themselves with subhuman filth

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Being stuck on a boat for months will make a sailor frick basically anything. The Fire Nation is a naval power.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Yes which is why they'd rather frick another sailor than any water woman

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                You need something to give to the poor bastards too ugly for another sailor to tolerate though.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        It was an insanely weak and isolated tribe with a couple of powerful benders and warriors. Crippling them without any casualties would be a major strategic victory

        easier target.

        >Why did they bother with the Southern Tribe?
        A hunch, most likely. With Sozin never recovering the Avatar among the Air Temples, it was probably his idea and later Azulon's that the Avatar was dead and probably just picked the SWT as a starting point to look for the next one. But after never finding anything, they just abandoned any interest in the Water Tribes and focused on the more immediate valuable target.

        Southern Water Tribe was simply too pathetic to leave alone I guess? I mean look at their village at the end, did it even break into double digits? Plus with how isolated it was it couldn't even get any wealth from trading with the EK like the Northern Water Tribe could.

        Why not just exterminate them?

        Seems pretty obvious looking at the map. The southern hemisphere is lousy with islands. Islands that would make ideal staging bases for the Fire Nation navy. Whether the SWT was the target for easier to coordinate and supply raids from these islands, or they were preemptively attacked to defend those bases on those islands that would launch into the mainland: neither is true with the North.

        The Fire Nation itself is better positioned to strike at the western Earth Kingdom mainland. Also probably east if the world isn't too large.
        There are no islands north of the Earth Kingdom and south of the NWT's island to make harbor on. The northern face of the eastern continent is mountainous and a seaside would be a terrible forward base for a land invasion into the Earth Kingdom.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        1: Easy Target
        2: Close to earth kingdom so it makes a good strategic base of operations
        3: Was close to southern air temple and air nomad territory so it was a natural second target at the beginning of the war

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Southern/northern water tribe would have been the place where the avatar would be born next. Thats why they were attacked after the air nomads. However after 15 years attacking the north no sign of avatar see

        They didn't try. The NWT was so out of touch they thought the FN was still using uniforms that were 85 years out of date. They literally haven't seen an FN soldier in over a human lifetime.

        .
        They then foxused on the southern water tribe, decimated them and then found nothing of value. So they switched targets to the earth kingdom.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          The earth kingdom was always the prize. It has all the land, all the resources, all the productive population. Everything else the fire nation did was always about getting everyone else out of the way so they could lock down that place. Once they had it they didn't bother sending the navy to kill off the northerners even on comet day.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            The earth nation was the prize, but the water tribes were attacked first because of the avatar.

            >They then foxused on the southern water tribe, decimated them and then found nothing of value.
            The north was last attacked 85 years before the show. The raids on the south started 60 years before the show.

            Yes thats what I said. Started on the north, ended attacks after 15 years due to no avatar. Started sending raids on the south after giving up on the north as a waste of time.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >They then foxused on the southern water tribe, decimated them and then found nothing of value.
          The north was last attacked 85 years before the show. The raids on the south started 60 years before the show.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            I'm going to assume that any raids in the south were largely incidental to the fire nation's actual campaigns in the southern earth kingdom. It makes sense to fight the water tribe if you're doing it to assert naval dominance in the region so you can secure supply lines for waging war in a more valuable region, there's strategic value in that. It doesn't make sense to commit fully to a siege and full conquest of an arctic region you have little-to-no interest in just cause.

            • 3 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              Seem too deliberate and sustained for that. They kept up the pressure for decades in a very precise way, rather than just doing a quick one-off genocide with a big army and fricking off.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                maintaining a colonial presence in a foreign land with constant opposition from people who are geographically decentralized over a very large area and have magic boulder throwing powers takes a shit ton of coordinated effort anon. The fire nation's forces were probably spread about as thin as they possibly could be just trying to hold their existing foreign territories while continuing to expand at a pretty early stage in the war. Pulling enough of your forces away to go genocide some brown fishermen you didn't really care about in the slightest for no real gain would've been moronic.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                You go to their villages with a big army, once, and just kill everyone there rather than going back to exact same villages again and again, for literal decades, and just rounding up waterbenders alive while leaving everyone else there, which is what they actually did. Which of those sounds easier?

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                The one that you can do as an afterthought during your normal transport runs between home and the place you're actually worried about.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                It costs a lot more to make many, many trips over decades, to the point you develop special ships and a special unit just for doing that specific thing, and keeping dozens to hundreds of useless waterbenders alive in specialized prisons than it does to send a thousand guys to throw fireballs into snow people's faces until they're all dead.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >It costs a lot more to make many, many trips over decades,
                It costs resources a little at a time, over the course of decades. Diverting forces costs territory.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                They literally built an entire new class of ship specifically to raid the south and nothing else. Along with a dedicated unit that, by sokka's estimate, badly outumbered te swt. Just killing them all would be way less time and money.

                And again, dozens of of useless, expensive prisoners for no reason.

            • 3 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              >I'm going to assume that any raids in the south were largely incidental to the fire nation's actual campaigns in the southern earth kingdom.
              The southern ek is a long way from the literal south pole. If they were doing that they would have hit kyoshi island too, since its much closer. They didn't.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Did we ever get any indication that the Kyoshi islanders had a large naval presence that the fire nation would have noticed or cared about?

                It's clear from what we see in the series that the southern water tribe were definitely seafarers, so it would be highly unlikely that the fire nation ships wouldn't come into conflict with them at some point because of their presence in that region. The fact that all the men went off to war but we don't see much indication of a fire nation foothold on the ground in their territory tells us they were probably actively raiding ships and doing what they could to drive them out, if they'd just holed up and ignored the earth kindgom getting buttfricked then they'd probably have been mostly left alone, at least until the earth kingdom completely fell and they set their sights on whoever was left.

                They literally built an entire new class of ship specifically to raid the south and nothing else. Along with a dedicated unit that, by sokka's estimate, badly outumbered te swt. Just killing them all would be way less time and money.

                And again, dozens of of useless, expensive prisoners for no reason.

                >And again, dozens of of useless, expensive prisoners for no reason.
                They needed someone to rape, duh

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >Did we ever get any indication that the Kyoshi islanders had a large naval presence that the fire nation would have noticed or cared about?
                No, but the entire swt fleet was like six ships. Zhao had dozens just floating out in the middle of the ocean doing nothing in the roku episode. They were outnumbered by a ridiculous degree.

                >They needed someone to rape, duh
                Nonbenders would make better rape dolls. Pic related.

  6. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    The Fire Nation’s whole war strategy was ass backwards tbh
    >exterminate the Air Nomads right away
    >ignore the Water Tribes completely
    >fight an offensive war in the Earth Kingdom and stall for the majority of the century long war

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      How? I dont see the bakwardsness here.
      Air nomads are definelty the trickiest ones to snuff out given they literally Fly around. probably the most annoying in a prolonged war.
      Water tribes turtle, so they really arent a pressing concern
      Earth kingdom they can easily take bits slow and steady and reap profit from the conquered areas.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Should’ve taken out the water tribes completely. They half assed it, especially since they could’ve controlled the moon and make all water benders obsolete

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          why? doesnt seem like the north was doing much. ALso, I dont think they knew about the moon spirit unitl Zho or whatever his name was found out about it in the sand tower during season 1.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          They should killed all the SWT men and taken the women back to be comfort women.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            This. The fire Nation didn’t take care of their officers with harems. That’s why the nation was so quick to change sides

            • 3 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              Also, Ozai should have just sent Zuko off to marry Yue. Stick your unwanted son on the literal ass-end of the planet, get a vassal state out of it, free up your resources to focus on the EK.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                The Fire Nation’s autistic obsession with pride was their biggest weakness. Allowing multiple double agents and casting off Iroh and Zuko on bullshit missions when they could’ve been useful tools

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >sent Zuko off to marry Yue
                I see you are also Fire Lady Dowager appreciator

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                I have no idea what you're talking about, I got the idea from The Alliance (it's Azulon doing it there, but same principle).

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                It's a fic on AO3 about Ursa killing Ozai and taking the throne

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Yeah, like I said, idk. This ao3 fic is where I got the inspiration: works/23521984/chapters/56412718

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          why didn't fire lord Ozai press the take out the water tribe button on his throne? is he stupid?

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Why didn't he send a few of those ships from Zhao's frickhuge blockade to go and genocide the SWT once and for all? It would have taken a few hours, tops.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      They went for the Air Nomads first because Azulon was aware that the Airbenders were next in the Avatar cycle. They were trying break the cycle as soon as possible, so snuffing them out while the Avatar was still a child was their only real option.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >kill all the air nomads to kill the Avatar while he's still a baby
        >A few months later he's just reborn to the water tribes and you've barely delayed the problem by a year

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Aang was 12. That buys you another decade minimum.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      EK is the only other country that has anything worthwhile. Southern Water Tribe has fricking nothing, they're the backward yokels of the world.
      They tried to preemptively deal with Aang so they had to target the Air Nomads first.
      And the Northern Water Tribe, well, look how fricking tiny Zuko's old ship was. For a long while that's the size of the ships in the Fire Nation, would you want to go in one of those, all the way up to the Northern Water Tribe where the bastards can bend the fricking ice and water around you?

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      https://i.imgur.com/qajD9PL.jpg

      How did the fire nation conquer the earth kingdom but not the northern water tribe?

      The earth kingdom was the biggest threat to the fire nation, its not hard to figure out

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        One 12 year old was a bigger threat than the entire ek. That place was fricking pathetic.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      these are the guys who thought sending divisions of new recruits into certain death for a slight distraction was a viable war-strategy, and they disfigured anybody who voiced out the slightest criticism in their decision-making. I never got the impression they were particularly smart.

  7. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    This should have been the fate of the fire colonists in Earth Kingdom territories.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Nah the Earth Kingdom should have been exterminated and given to them.

  8. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >Sir, should we head north to the Water Tribes? Wipe them out?
    >No. It looks cold over there. Much much too cold.

  9. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >but not the northern water tribe?
    Watch ATLA Season 1 and find out.

  10. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Water tribes were only of interest because a new Avatar should've been born there. The land otherwise holds nothing of value for them to conquer.
    Northern Tribe was much more fortified and held out better from the initial sieges. Then after like 15-20 years if the new Avatar had been born in the Northern Tribe, they surely would've shown up in defense of their people by now. So bothering to break through became less and less valuable.
    The hundred years of raids against the South's waterbenders at that point was continued simply because it was easy to send some shitter crews there every so often.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      The Fire Nation knew from the start that the Avatar was an Air Nomand. Sozin knew it, and Zuko knew it 100 years later. It was never about a Water Tribe Avatar.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        What was the plan then? Get the Avatar to loop back to Fire Nation and try and groom him into a super solider? The commit shit was a last resort if the war went on too long

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >The Fire Nation knew from the start that the Avatar was an Air Nomand
        Yes, and they were certain they had just killed every single airbender. So surely the avatar would next be born in the water tribes. This is the entire reason they were abducting waterbenders.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Sozin says he knows the avatar eluded him. Zuko says the sages say the avatar is the last airbender. They know he hasn't been reborn.

          What was the plan then? Get the Avatar to loop back to Fire Nation and try and groom him into a super solider? The commit shit was a last resort if the war went on too long

          Capture him and win the war.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous
        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          He seems to have forgotten what they said in the show itself.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            The only reason they were taking waterbenders captive instead of killing them outright was because it was theoretically possible one could be the next avatar,(until the last raid ~10 years ago when they just killed Katara's mom because enough time had passed it was improbable) and they'd rather have the Avatar captive than have to next go hunting in the Earth Kingdom next.

            • 3 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              Again, Zuko knows he's the last airbender from the first episode, before ever meeting him. What you're saying makes no sense.

            • 3 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              If the goal was to catch a waterbending avatar why wouldn't they look at the pole with a much larger waterbending population?

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >They didn't know if they got the Avatar in the initial attack
          >Meanwhile Sozin

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Sozin was a complete autist who either didn’t tell anyone or people forgot. If he was so ass blasted finding Aang, he should’ve just genocided all non Fire peoples

            • 3 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              >Sozin was a complete autist who either didn’t tell anyone or people forgot
              >Meanwhile Zuko before setting eyes on Aang

            • 3 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              >Sozin was a complete autist who either didn’t tell anyone or people forgot
              >Meanwhile Zuko before setting eyes on Aang

              It could just be that Zuko asked the sages before setting out since he was on an explicit mission to hunt the avatar, while other just assumed and since the search took so long they started going onto backup plans.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Sozin, Azulon, and Ozai explicitly all set out to hunt the Avatar at some point. So they'd all know.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            This episode gave me such chills. Sozin's voice here most definitely included.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          homie took a dab before the interview

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      The Fire Nation knew from the start that the Avatar was an Air Nomand. Sozin knew it, and Zuko knew it 100 years later. It was never about a Water Tribe Avatar.

      They had the Fire Sages who could read portents and could tell if the Avatar had died or was using his Avatar State powers or had been reborn yet, like when all of the Temples lit up when Aang woke up/entered the Avatar state

      The Fire Sages did not see any of those signs, even after 100 years. So after a while most Fire Nation generals and nobles probably wouldn't believe the Sages knew what they were talking about and wanted to move on with the war
      (Which is why Zuko was expecting an ancient old master who had spent the last century honing his skills.)

      But by wiping out the Air Nomads with surprise attacks they took out one of the most annoying opponents they would have (there's no way they could win a drawn out war against Air Benders who control the skies with the level of technology they had back then and without the Comet's boost), they (probably) killed the Avatar before he awakened, and they killed most of the potential masters who could train the next Water Tribe Avatar in Airbending, severely weakening all future Avatars. It was a decisive opening move in the war

      They took out the Southern Tribe with the Raids which didn't have the built in natural defenses of the North.
      They took out all of the water benders there, if they killed the Avatar that's great and if they didn't then they took away all of his options for a Waterbending master in the Southern hemisphere.

      So then if an Avatar came they would likely be half baked at best, barely capable of Airbending, only able to learn Water in the North, and no sane Firebender would be willing to teach him after decades of propaganda and cultural brainwashing

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Why was LoK lore so shit in comparison?

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Again, we have it straight from Sozin's lips that he knew, from the get-go, that he'd missed the airbending Avatar. That the last airbender was still out there. Zuko still knows this, one hundred years later. Therefore, Azulon and Ozai, who also searched for the Avatar, would know it and plan their military campaigns accordingly.

        And it also doesn't make a lick of sense to say you were looking for a waterbending Avatar and then totally ignore the single biggest concentration of waterbenders in the world, the place where he is statistically far more likely to be born, for eighty plus years.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          I know that Sozin spent the rest of his life hunting down Airbenders and searching for the surviving Avatar

          I just meant that after a couple generations and absolutely no sign of the Avatar coming back to intervene in the Fire Nation war machine, some of the less superstitious War ministers and generals probably stopped believing the Fire Sages when they said the Airbender Avatar was still out there somewhere. And if they did think he was out there, they probably believed in Fire Nation supremacy enough that they didn't care

          Pummelling the Southern Water Tribe into a couple huts and igloos and shacks, while cutting off the Northern Tribe from the rest of the world was a valid strategy

          If the Northern Tribe is too afraid to leave their fortress then it's really just a war between the Fire Nation and the Earth Kingdom. So focusing on the war effort on the Nation which takes up like 2 thirds of the world seems like a smart idea

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            If there's a waterbending Avatar, he's much more likely to be born in the north. If you just leave the north alone, he'll have all the time in the world to master waterbending and then come after you. So if that's actually a concern, leaving them alone for decades is really stupid.

            • 3 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              He can master Waterbending all he wants. But he'll never be able to master Air or Fire. And if he never leaves the Northern Tribe then he'll never be able to master Earth.

              So he's just one person, who is really good at one element, maybe two. Scary but not a huge threat to a whole army.
              And again he done anything to interfere in the war in decades so he's probably a coward or feeble or both

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                If the idea is such a nonissue, on the other hand, then wasting so much time and manpower on raiding some snow hicks in bumfrick nowhere is nonsensical, as is wasting so much time and money on meticulously capturing all their waterbenders and keeping them alive, when you could just genocide the entire tribe on your first raid and go home.

  11. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    The Fire Nation's conquest of the Earth Kingdom and its failure to conquer the Northern Water Tribe can be attributed to several factors:

    1. **Geography:** The Earth Kingdom is vast and has diverse terrain, making it difficult for the Fire Nation to maintain control over the entire kingdom. The Northern Water Tribe, on the other hand, is located in a remote and fortified location, making it harder for the Fire Nation to launch a successful invasion.

    2. **Military Strength:** The Earth Kingdom had a strong and well-organized military, which posed a significant challenge to the Fire Nation's forces. The Northern Water Tribe also had a formidable defense, with its skilled waterbenders and the protection of the ocean surrounding it.

    3. **Cultural and Political Factors:** The Earth Kingdom was divided into many smaller states, which made it easier for the Fire Nation to conquer them individually. The Northern Water Tribe, however, was more unified and had a strong sense of cultural identity, making it harder for the Fire Nation to divide and conquer.

    4. **Avatar's Influence:** Aang, the Avatar, played a crucial role in protecting the Northern Water Tribe. His presence and his ability to master all four elements made him a formidable opponent for the Fire Nation.

    Overall, a combination of geographic, military, cultural, and political factors contributed to the Fire Nation's success in conquering the Earth Kingdom and its failure to conquer the Northern Water Tribe.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Honestly the Fire Nation needed some insiders and backstabbers. They only had the secret police of the earth kingdom and that’s it

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Probably the 'muh honor' autism making them disdain such tactics.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      an AI wrote that

  12. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    What was the plan here? Certainly they couldn't cover the entire continent in time. Destroy Ba Sing Se? They already captured it and why would Iroh bother liberating it if it was going to be destroyed if Aang loses?

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Kill off the asian equivalent of the israelites before they could ruin the FN's financial sector by buying up its war debt.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Destroy the Earth Kingdom's morale once and for all. They wanted to scorch as much of the land as they could so they would give up on any big resistance against the fire nation. Similar to how the US dropped the bombs to give a message that it's pointless to keep this grindy combat and just accept your defeat.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        That makes sense and they did say that, just wish they had mentioned the actual target because they just burning woodlands.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        That makes sense and they did say that, just wish they had mentioned the actual target because they just burning woodlands.

        He did. Ozai was leading that fleet straight to Ba Sing Se. The absolute madman was gonna burn the largest city in the world with his own army inside it.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      By the time the comet had passed they would have wasted all their time just burning random uninhabited coastline

  13. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Why would hey even want a shitty frozen wasteland? Even the sex slaves would be ugly and brown.

  14. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Earth Kingdom was priority ontop of apparently having zero naval capabilities and being decentralized as frick.
    Water Tribes were lower priority after Sozin died and he probably wasted most his time going after the weak link Southern Tribe meaning the North was relatively untouched. So they were a highly capable unified force that had good counters for the Fire Nation both elementally and militarily. Frankly it was dumb that Ozai wanted to waste his Comet Charge on razing the Earth Kingdom rather than obliterating the Northern Tribe once and for all especially since they began splitting their forces to help the Southern tribe rebuild

  15. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    I remember reading somewhere that there were other villages in the Southern Water Tribe, spread throughout the South Pole. They just weren't all concentrated in one place like the North

  16. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    How did Alexander conquer Persia but not Sparta? Smart leaders understand the calculations of costs vs rewards.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >How did Alexander conquer Persia but not Sparta?
      He did you dipshit

  17. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Honestly, why in the frick did the Fire Nation attack the Water Tribes? They are a literal natives with zero industrialization and you can't really industrialize their shit hole.

    They got nothing there except penguin meat and world's purest water, and Tribal pussy. Like the Fire Nation randomly showed up, burned down the Southern Water Tribe and didn't even stay or anything. The North was so far removed from the war that Zhou fricking attack them for no reason and brought them into the war like a moron.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >Honestly, why in the frick did the Fire Nation attack the Water Tribes?
      Avatar was unaccounted for when the Air Nomad final solution was enacted. Water comes after air in the Avatar Cycle. Not that hard to figure out.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        But they knew the cycle hadn't swapped from Air yet, maybe the FN are just dickheads

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >But they knew the cycle hadn't swapped from Air yet
          Not conclusively. It's logical to go after what's next in the cycle since the air-nomad Avatar was never accounted for and could've been killed with the others. Traditionally, the Avatar isn't supposed to be made aware of who they are until they turn 16. Sozin had no reason to think that tradition was going to be broken.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >But they knew the cycle hadn't swapped from Air yet
            No, they didn't. Sozin's private memoirs only allude to the hinge notion that he WORRIES the avatar survived. Not "we've kept it a secret from everyone we know we failed".

            They weren't sure what happened, all their divination attempts turned up bupkis. As They couldn't be sure if some spirit magic blocked their few divination clues. Or if the Air Avatar actually died of whooping cough in the cradle and reincarnated 10 years earlier. But it became really odd as decades stretched on no sign of the Avatar appeared.

            Again, if that's the concern, you don't leave the north alone. He's probably there, if anywhere in the water tribes.

            • 3 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              I seriously don't imagine the Avatar was the primary objective in Sozin's war of conquest. Was the southern raiders really about finding Schrodinger's Korra? Or did it just so happen that imprisoning all benders they could get their hands on was a strategic victory, and the Southern Tribes were a far softer target than the North?

              I imagine there'd be a coup if Sozin's war of conquest spent the first 30 years not conquering land of material value. But instead was fighting eskimos over tundra and kept losing because a fish got mad.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                That's the point. Fighting eskimos over tundra has no purpose except either finding the Avatar (in which case you'd want to check the more populated tundra anyway) or else eliminating someone actively resisting you (imo, the more likely motivation for the raids).

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >That's the point. Fighting eskimos over tundra has no purpose except either finding the Avatar ... or else eliminating someone actively resisting you (imo, the more likely motivation for the raids).
                I don't think we need to blame the southern tribe for starting shit. Benders are just dangerous. Sozin didn't only genocide the air nomads because he wanted to hit the avatar in a carpet bombing: he did it to eliminate the air benders. The fire nation rounds up benders wherever they can in modern times too. As anon pointed out: the southern water tribe is clearly more susceptible to attack from the fire nation than the north. Where raids over time successfully took the tribe out.
                >you'd want to check the more populated tundra anyway
                You are are aware the southern tribe used to be larger, right? In Hama's time we see they had more combatant waterbenders than we see defending the north in current era. From the brief flashbacks we see they were shown living in large water-bender built ice-walled cities that clearly mirrored the north. Even if that's only because they allowed women in the fight: that at most makes the northern tribe less than twice the size of the south at that point in history. Jeering at the southern tribe here is basically downplaying this as the fire nation's second greatest success story in the war.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >I don't think we need to blame the southern tribe for starting shit
                No, I just think it seems logical that they were actively helping the EK resist the FN, like they did later in the show anyway. The NWT seemed content to frick off, and until the Avatar showed up the FN seemed content to let them. If the SWT was doing likewise there'd be no motivation to send so many raids their way while also not just doing another airbender-style genocide of the whole tribe. They didn't even cart them off to be slaves in their factories or anything. Just came, took the benders, and fricked off. They didn't get any land or resources, they had to spend tons of time and money keeping a bunch of useless waterbenders alive. It makes no sense to go through so much unnecessary effort if the SWT is just doing the same thing as the NWT. Those resources could be spent conquering the EK instead.

                >You are are aware the southern tribe used to be larger, right?
                The NWT city is much larger than the SWT one even at its Hama-era height. If you're looking for waterbending kiddos, statistically, you're going to want to check up near Santa's workshop. That the FN didn't bother doing that, combined with Sozin's explicit confirmation that he knew he was looking for an airbender, pretty well proves it wasn't about a waterbending avatar imo.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >It makes no sense
                Alright, honestly now. You just refuse to engage with my notion that it was strategically easier to launch raids on the south. I get that at no point did a producer or writer spake it into canon but I don't know how much longer we can keep a discussion going here if you're not going to recognize I agree with the premise something is different about the southern tribe and northern tribe. So let me just cap off here: I for one, don't think it's some strange occurrence the Fire Nation would launch an unprovoked attacks. Or that they'd be imprisoning benders that have done nothing to them. Like... the whole premise of the war is the former, and Haru was in like episode 5.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >You just refuse to engage with my notion that it was strategically easier to launch raids on the south.
                And you just refuse to engage with the very obvious notion that there's no reason to waste resources doing that if they've just fricked off on their own. From the perspective of an imperialist warlord, why bother? Imagine Putin deciding he needs to divert troops from the sixth decade of his war in Ukraine to attack some literal eskimos on the ass end of the planet for no gain whatsoever.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >But they knew the cycle hadn't swapped from Air yet
          No, they didn't. Sozin's private memoirs only allude to the hinge notion that he WORRIES the avatar survived. Not "we've kept it a secret from everyone we know we failed".

          They weren't sure what happened, all their divination attempts turned up bupkis. As They couldn't be sure if some spirit magic blocked their few divination clues. Or if the Air Avatar actually died of whooping cough in the cradle and reincarnated 10 years earlier. But it became really odd as decades stretched on no sign of the Avatar appeared.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >No, they didn't. Sozin's private memoirs only allude to the hinge notion that he WORRIES the avatar survived. Not "we've kept it a secret from everyone we know we failed".
            Wrong.

            >They didn't know if they got the Avatar in the initial attack
            >Meanwhile Sozin

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >Tribal pussy
      That's pretty much an actual reason

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Because the water tribes were sending warriors and waterbenders overseas to aid the earth kingdom against the fire nation like Hakoda and his men were doing?

  18. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Same reason Japan didn’t conquer Siberia, it’s fricking cold

  19. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    The fire nation hadn't really conquered the earth kingdom yet, They had some colonies and managed to take Omashu and Ba Sing Se but earth kingdom was just too vast and disconnected to take over completely.

    As for the northern water tribe apparently it was due to 1: The exact locations of it's cities being mostly unknown and 2:It being well defended both by it's walls and the high percentage of it's population that were water benders surrounded by their element.

  20. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    The Northern Water Tribe was a fortress. The Fire Nation only steamrolled them because Zhao managed to kill that fish and disable their waterbending (also their technology had probably improved a lot since the last attempt).

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      They couldn't hold up under that huge ass Siege of ships.

      Eventually the NWT would break, especially since they couldn't go out fishing for more food

      Zhao just got impatient, keep up the Siege, attack during the day, keep watch at night, establish a supply line, make sure the Water Tribe can't leave to get any extra food

      It's even easier than Iroh's Siege of Ba Sing Se, since it's not like the Waterbenders can farm within their walls

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >Zhao just got impatient, keep up the Siege, attack during the day,
        Honestly attacking during only the day is a bad idea for a campaign. The Waterbenders would get time to rebuild and redesign defenses every day and without being able to make progressive damage to foritifications: the benefits of a continual assault is kind of meaningless on the campaign scale. Even attacking strictly for attrition wouldn't favor the larger Fire Nation army since the Water Tribe has healers.
        >establish a supply line
        From where? Either a supply line will need to go back to the Fire Nation: over a third of the planet, requiring a fleet equally large to what we see in the blockade, or entire colonies somewhere in the Earth Kingdom would need to be dedicated to shipping their fuel, food, and ammunition and we have no idea where any are that would serve that end. Except that apparently there's a massive Earth Kingdom stronghold at the closest point in the EK to the NWT.
        >keep watch at night, establish a supply line, make sure the Water Tribe can't leave to get any extra food
        >Eventually the NWT would break, especially since they couldn't go out fishing for more food
        >It's not like the Waterbenders can farm within their walls
        You're not considering that the Water Tribe, native to the North Pole, would likely have no problem trekking overland in their home territory to find unguarded harbors to fish, to forage, or hunt terrestrial game. The Fire Nation would need to place siege camps to completely encircle the city on the land/glacier to prevent the Water Tribe's resupply and that's a far weaker position for them. That's not even considering hypothetical bending shenanigans, or the logical supply raids they'd launch on the Fire Nation fleet.

        TL;DR Zhao actually had the right idea even without the "I win fishfry".

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >TL;DR Zhao actually had the right idea even without the "I win fishfry".
          He could have just waited an extra week to let the full moon pass, then won conventionally with his overwhelming numbers and firepower, and not completely doomed the planet to uncontrollable environmental devastation in the process. Zhao was a fricking moron.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >Zhao should have just let the water tribe attack his fleet during the height of their power. That would have been smart.
            Given the choice between losing soldiers and losing ships Zhao made the correct decision. Whether you want to be a bleeding heart environmentalist is your business, but the moon picked a side.

            • 3 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              I mean the Water Tribe didn't seem to have any long range scouts or early warning systems in place to let them know when enemy ships were approaching

              Aang had no idea just how huge that Fire Nation Navy was until it was right on top of him and he realized he had no chance of stopping them all

              If they had just waited at a port for like one more week before setting off and starting the Siege they probably could have come after the Full Moon had passed

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >I mean the Water Tribe didn't seem to have any long range scouts or early warning systems in place to let them know when enemy ships were approaching
                The fleet bellowed ash into the sky over the horizon from their position. Hard to hide that.
                >If they had just waited at a port for like one more week
                Yeah, but tell me you know nothing of military movements. On a prolonged sea voyage there's simply no way Zhao could be certain known the precise duration of it. Even if the Fire Nation had precise maps of the world. Even they had some detachment of steamers sent ahead to time the trip at cruising speed, possibly ruining the element of surprise. Weather, the need to make course corrections, and the effort of keeping cohesion could delay the armada. The difference between making 50 and 40 miles a day add up on a voyage of thousands of miles.

                Of course I can't definitely say the avatar world is larger than a beach ball, and Zhao didn't have a harbor on the northern side of the Earth Kingdom where it would be an journey of at most a few days... but we aren't privy to one.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >The fleet bellowed ash into the sky over the horizon from their position. Hard to hide that.
                Literally spend an extra week fricking around at the military base the invasion fleet launched from in the first place you absolute moron.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >I mean the Water Tribe didn't seem to have any long range scouts or early warning systems in place to let them know when enemy ships were approaching
                Yes they did, that's literally how the Gaang find the northern tribe, the northern scout ships find them and surround them.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Those weren't even long range enough to notice frickhuge incoming fleet before the gigantic rolling cloud of smoke alerted them.

  21. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Earth Kingdom was just a loosely associated empire of multiple small kingdoms and villages, while the Northern Water Tribe was a strong, cohesive walled-off state.

  22. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Naval warfare against water benders is a b***h?

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Yeah this should be straightforward enough.
      You would need to be a master or have a small group, but flipping those warships or freezing them in an iceberg is absolutely on the table.
      The air nomads were hit simultaneously at the start of the war and hard enough that few if any escaped into other kingdoms, but then the war turns into a massive logistical problem of needing to focus on the landmass immediately near the Fire Nation which becomes their territories by the time last airbender happens.
      They frick up the water tribes looking for the Avatar or the reincarnation before giving up but how would you even hold their "land" when it requires active waterbending to maintain? You can absolutely frick up their grand city with a huge assault and they just chill in fast and easy igloos until they can craft an entire city again and they absolutely have no qualms fighting back and working in groups with nonbender warriors.

  23. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    fire conquers water? does fire in the water?

  24. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >How did the fire nation conquer the earth kingdom
    They didn't, they invaded and fought them for over 100 years, claiming and colonizing large amounts of territory in the process but never fully conquering them

    >but not the northern water tribe?
    What possible reason did they have to spend valuable resources and manpower fighting to conquer a single city made of ice in a frozen desert with nothing of value?

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