How necessary was it truly for Gandalf to become the White?

If i recall correctly in the book Saruman has no real spell on Theoden, it’s Grima.
Gandalf the Grey could just as easily track down Eomer, or flee with Pippin to Minas Tirith and light the beacons.
Even Saruman was destroyed by the ents, and a fucking hobbit, which i guess you could argue the ents crossed paths with Gandalf but did he really need to be so much more powerful?
Like what if they’d just crossed Moria without the Balrog, he would have done fine all the same

  1. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    i always just thought that he was turned into gandalf the white because he fucking died and then the ainur like gave divine intervention to revive him. it wasn't like he was destined to become the white like it was neccessary per se, its just he fucking died and teh ainur were like "oh fuck" and then glued him back together and gave him a new coat of warhammer paint.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      He says he is essentially what Saruman should have been but uncorrupted. Idk why there so necessary needed to be a new most powerful Istari rather than just let Saruman be corrupted And that be it.

      Illuvatar brought him back by the way. The Valar wouldn't have bothered

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >The Valar wouldn't have bothered
        Only Eru can give life to something like a Maiar
        Mandos orchestrates resurrection in the Elves, but I think even that is more a physical body recycling protocol than giving them actual life essence. IIRC the Valar that molded the Dwarf bodies had to have Eru be the one to actually awaken them (ie instill life and a spirit_
        Also the reason Morgoth could only corrupt living things, not recreate them from whole cloth.

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          So you’re clearly informed
          What do you think of Gandalf’s unnecessary superpowers? After his resurection
          Or wat about Sauron wearing the ring visibly at the last alliance, instead of somewhere more obscure

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      It wasn't the Valar who sent him back.

      From Tolkien's letter 156:

      >The 'wizards', as such, had failed; or if you like: the crisis had become too grave and needed an enhancement of power. So Gandalf sacrificed himself, was accepted, and enhanced, and returned. 'Yes, that was the name. I was Gandalf.' Of course he remains similar in personality and idiosyncrasy, but both his wisdom and power are much greater. When he speaks he commands attention; the old Gandalf could not have dealt so with Théoden, nor with Saruman.

      >He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure. 'Naked I was sent back – for a brief time, until my task is done'. Sent back by whom, and whence? Not by the 'gods' whose business is only with this embodied world and its time; for he passed 'out of thought and time'.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Tolkein is unironically a hack.
        Litteral Rowling tier need to explain everything and ruin the books because of it.
        >lol nothing mattered it was all gods playing and having fun
        >oh sorry you thought this was a great tale about innocence, love, and redemption prevailing over evil?
        >well fuck you it was a flip of the coin which god lile being decided to give a shit in the moment none of the actions of the characters mattered, nobody had free will, Vishu pushed Golem into the lava from his seat on the magical cloud island.

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          He wrote the bigger story before he finished what became Fellowship

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Not really. No one pushed Gollum in. But it turns out if Bilbo was a good person and took pity on Gollum, thus sparing him, and then years later Frodo does the same, that at the end you have Gollum in the Cracks of Doom with Frodo. The latter fails at the last minute but Gollum's presence, a result of the heroic choices of the two main hobbits, means the Ring is still destroyed.

          There's several Gandalf lines that tie into that:
          >"True courage is about knowing not when to take a life but when to spare one."
          >“Many that live deserve death. Some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them, Frodo? Do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment. Even the very wise cannot see all ends.”
          >"Saruman believes that it is only great power that can hold evil in check. But that is not what I have found. I have found it is the small things, everyday deeds of ordinary folk, that keeps the darkness at bay. Simple acts of kindness and love.”

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Based. People focus far too much on a literal divine "push" at the Crack of Doom rather than looking at the merciful choices made by Bilbo and Frodo when dealing with Gollum that allowed him to be there at the end. Gandalf's discussion with Frodo in Moria is just as much of a "push" in the right direction.

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            People have a hard time accepting that a writer can write good stuff (Lord of the Rings, the Hobbit) and bad stuff (The Silmarillion, and the rest that he didn't intend to publish that his son published for him)

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Except he literally stated in the moment that the Maiar or whatever pushed Golem in. That litteraly none of that actually mattered.

            Dont get me wrong I totally agree, I am a big beleiever that Smeagol was the true protagonist of the entire story. But straight from the horses mouth, Tokien says otherwise. Angelic being A didnt want to deal with Sauron anymore and shrugged and said "eh fuck it" and Sparta kicked Golem into Mt. Doom.

            • 2 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              But the opportunity to do so only presented itself because Frodo and Bilbo's choices ensured Gollum would be there to get pushed in.

            • 2 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              Do you know which letter? But even if that's true, even if at that point a god nudged Gollum in, everything I said still applies. Gollum still needed to be alive and there for them to push him in. Everything everyone did led to Frodo being there, and what Bilbo and Frodo did in terms of pitying Gollum lead to him being there too. At the very end, whether Gollum tripped, stepped on a Lego brick and fell in, or was pushed by a god, it's getting him (and the Ring) there that matters and that's all on the various humans, elves, hobbits, etc.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                They're probably talking about letter 192.

                >By chance, I have just had another letter regarding the failure of Frodo. Very few seem even to have observed it. But following the logic of the plot, it was clearly inevitable, as an event. And surely it is a more significant and real event than a mere 'fairy-story' ending in which the hero is indomitable? It is possible for the good, even the saintly, to be subjected to a power of evil which is too great for them to overcome – in themselves. In this case the cause (not the 'hero') was triumphant, because by the exercise of pity, mercy, and forgiveness of injury, a situation was produced in which all was redressed and disaster averted. Gandalf certainly foresaw this. See Vol. I p. 68-9.1 Of course, he did not mean to say that one must be merciful, for it may prove useful later – it would not then be mercy or pity, which are only truly present when contrary to prudence. Not ours to plan! But we are assured that we must be ourselves extravagantly generous, if we are to hope for the extravagant generosity which the slightest easing of, or escape from, the consequences of our own follies and errors represents. And that mercy does sometimes occur in this life.

                >Frodo deserved all honour because he spent every drop of his power of will and body, and that was just sufficient to bring him to the destined point, and no further. Few others, possibly no others of his time, would have got so far. The Other Power then took over: the Writer of the Story (by which I do not mean myself), 'that one ever-present Person who is never absent and never named' *(as one critic has said).

            • 2 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              >Except he literally stated in the moment that the Maiar or whatever pushed Golem in.
              Why do you talk as if you know what you're talking about when you say shit like this? Does your knowledge come solely from Cinemaphile posts?

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Unironically yes.

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          He literally only explained this stuff as interpretations from fans that kept writing him

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Yes. Exactly as Rowling has done with her autistic fanbase. They are the exact same.

            • 2 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              Find a successful author, or creator of anything, that hasn't been asked a shitloads of questions by fans, fellow creators, interviewers, etc over the years. Rowling's famous for it because she did it through the accessible and shitty medium of Twitter, and because of the usual internet rage when it comes to race, gayness etc.

              Tolkien is famous for it because you can buy the collection of his letters and people tend to treat his stuff in a more schorlarly manner than other fantasy or sci-fi writers. But in various magazines, TV and radio interviews, conventions, podcasts, etc you'll have Neil Gaiman doing the same, Terry Pratchett, Frank Herbert, Clarke, etc. Just often harder to find or track down than Tolkien and Rowling.

  2. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    It was necessary because he's a reference to the dying and rising god

  3. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    More importantly, at the start Gandalf asks Frodo to throw the Ring into the fireplace and Frodo can't do it. He can't bring himself to even possibly damage it. Why does Gandalf then entrust this guy to carry it for a year, getting still more corrupted, then actually destroy it? With the logical outcome being Frodo will simply be Deliverooing it to Sauron?

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Because there were no better options. Any of the men or dwarves would have tried to use it only to doom Middle Earth. The elves didn't want it and Gandalf didn't either since he knew how powerful it was.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        What about Sam?

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Sam was weak. He loves more than he hates and love can't kill the ring of power.

          Also he's a pussy

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            This is also straight from one pf Tolkien’s letters

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Sam was strong enough that the ring ran out of ways to tempt him, because every idea it had just bounced off Sam’s Bomdadil tier armour of not giving a shit

            • 2 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              Sam was so weak he couldn't even comprehend himself as strong, so the ring couldn't tempt him with anything. It shows him wielding godlike power and Sam is just like "lol, that's ridiculous"

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                That is quite literally what strength is: Sam recognized the ring for what it is and so anything it had to offer was, rightly, absurd to him and so the ring could only seethe.

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Sam is a servant. The ring was given to Frodo so it only made sense that he'd be the bearer.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Elves couldn't either, or he could have taken turns with Legolas

  4. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Looking forward to him turning into Gandalf the Black in Amazon's RoP when they screw with the lore and put him in the SA.

  5. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Is there a Tolkien letter about how long female elves have child bodies?

  6. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Is there any possible justification at all of how there are two Durins at the same time in RoP?

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Depends what you mean. If you mean does it contradict Tolkien's lore to have them doing what they're doing right now? Yes, I mean. The sinking of Numenor and the forging of the rings didn't happen at the same time. What little scraps they are actually taking from the books are all fudged together, timeline-wise.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        No, I mean that the only dwarves called Durin are the ones that are believed to be the reincarnation of the original Durin. It's a central belief of the dwarves. There's only ever one Durin at a time. So here we have Durin III who is so called because he *is* Durin (supposedly), yet he decided to call his son Durin too. So he thinks he and his son are both Durin? And all the other dwarves do too?

        The showrunners said "it'll make sense later" or something, but given how sloppy the show is, I doubt it.

  7. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Gandalf/Olorin was meant to be the leader from the very first, only his fear and self doubt held him back before the wizards even left valinor. Leadership passed to saruman instead, a maia too ambitious and similar in character to saurons original nature. Cirdan, the only elf old and wise enough to have a beard recognised gandi for what he was as soon as they arrived however and secretly gave the ring of fire to gandalf rather than saruman, which saruman later came to suspect and resent (hence Gandalf can throw fireballs and lightning and shit whereas the other wizards powers are only speech based). By dying Gandalf overcame his fear and could become the White leader he should have been. And that's the thread my friends unless a loremaster can expand on this

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      He was send back until his task was done.
      The way this makes it sound is as though he’s squandered 1000’s of years as the grey and then spend 5 years as the white before leaving with Frodo and Galadry for valinor

  8. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Why didn't Elrond send for an elf messenger to warn the shire? After he had Merry n Pipn go back to warn the rest but they refused. lol
    Elrond was like
    >welp, guess those hobbits are in for a treat

  9. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    The Balrog fight was just Galdalf on 5meoDMT, I did it, fought a demon, died, came back.
    Why do you think Jackson put the scene where they're falling down the abyss then fight on top of a mountain, Tolkien says the Balrog ran through tunnels then up stairs and Galdalf followed him all that way. Jackson understood what Tolkien was trying to say so skipped that stair shit and in the movies it felt like Galdalf was tripping hard.
    Of course, any anon who never tried 5meo will have no idea what I'm talking about.
    lotr is about life and wisdom, Galdalf is just an enlightened guy really, fighting the evils of the world, and doing it in a wise way, and when they were about to die in Minas Tirith he took it well and comforted Pipin etc.
    Be mike Gandalf, but it's difficult, even enlightened people take the Saruman or the Radagast path, ambition or detachment, as in sociopathic CEO or a monk, but the middle is Gandalf and is difficult to pull, that's why he's the only one to return to Valinor.

  10. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    in the movies the witch king makes him his bitch and then proceeds to get killed by a midget and a woman

  11. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    My favorite part of Tolkien interviews is when he gets asked about shit like this
    >"b-but why didn't the Eagles just carry them?"
    >cause it would make for a boring story

  12. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >Gandalf becomes white
    >starts massacring and spreading anti-orc propaganda
    sigh... Real subtle Jackson

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