I recently read through, over the last year, every Spider-man comic from Amazing Fantasy 15 to the direct end of the Clone Saga.

I recently read through, over the last year, every Spider-man comic from Amazing Fantasy 15 to the direct end of the Clone Saga. 1965 to roughly 1995. 30 whole years of comic books, and the Clone Saga ended so badly I actively do not want to read any more Spider-man comics ever again.

>Ben Reilly actually being an interesting character with his own supporting cast that have agency and are fresh ideas
>Peter and MJ concluding a multi-decade long growth arc about careers in photography and television, moving to Oregon to settle down away from the hubub of NYC
>Aunt May dying in TASM 400 in an incredibly emotional and hitting story

Like, yeah there's a lot of dumb Kaine and Jackal stuff in the Clone Saga, and the constant twisting of WHO IS THE REAL PETER PARKER? but there's also a lot of real genuine heart to Ben's story arc and what happens with Pete and MJ

But then

>Norman Osborne who has been dead for actually 17 years shows up
>MJ is actively giving birth when an agent hired by Norman STEALS THE BABY
>MJ is told it's a miscarriage
>Norman reveals he was behind the clones the whole time
>Aunt May isn't dead, it was just an actress
>Ben Reilly literally crumbles into dust in Pete's arms
>Pete and MJ (now a Size Zero again) happy to be back in NYC and Peter as Spider-man
>status quo reset

Knowing that JMS's run in-between this and OMD is actually very good, having read it in the past when it was new, doesn't prevent me from calling it quits now. One More Day happens not 10 years after the end of the Clone Saga, but I think the real sign Spider-man would never be able to progress as a character happens in 1995, not 2005.

In my eyes, the end of the Clone Saga is when Spider-man comics stopped being great, because the first 30 years is almost complete bangers.

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  1. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Comic books are just like women's soap operas.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      They actually should be more like soaps, honestly. Soaps at least have actual progression because the actors themselves have to age and time passes. Days of Our Lives, General Hospital, and even classics like Dark Shadows and Y&R are known to have dramatic changes every so often due to cast shuffling, aging out, deaths, technological advancement.
      Marvel's comic lineup until the 90's had a lot of that actually, and Spider-man and that IP's supporting comics like Peter Parker, Web Of, Sensational, all connected with TASM as a way to weave a web of Peter Parker's regular day to day life alongside superheroics and for the first 30ish years of comics you watched that man (sliding timescale notwithstanding) go from high school, to college, to being an adult with a job. MJ became a friend, to Harry's girl, to Peter's girlfriend, wife, all while progressing as a model, television star, all with her own agency as a character.

      Most of Marvel's comics worked like that. They presented them as real people with relatable problems and story arcs that resonated with people. Spider-man wasn't just punching the villains he was also juggling having a job and not having enough time to spend with his girlfriend. They were super successful at being that, and I genuinely feel like the 90's is when Marvel (because DC never really did this) stopped being able to tell those stories.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      And the fight scenes suck ass.

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Just give me a Shonen Spidey manga about Peter Parker being Spider-Man with awesome fight scenes that don't look like ass.

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Yeah and then you give him a giant robot called leopardon.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Unironically they should. Japanese Spider-Man really helped codify a lot of Tokusatsu and Sentai tropes, and Slott boiled it all down to 'hurr hurr, Japan is goofy!!!'

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Unironically they should. Japanese Spider-Man really helped codify a lot of Tokusatsu and Sentai tropes, and Slott boiled it all down to 'hurr hurr, Japan is goofy!!!'

            None of this shit, man. I just want a played straight Ditko/Romita-like Shonen Spidey manga. No gimmicks. Only the genuine article.

            • 4 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              Homeslice, there ain't nobody more genuine than my homie Takuya.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                If Marvel wasn't stupid, we'd have a modern Spider-Man toku show.

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Based
          I liked Spider-man Fake Red, more Spider-man manga would be cool

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            I just want a Fake Red follow-up with Yu taking up a Spider Mantle. My man deserves it, he's the closest thing to an honest legacy character I've seen out of Spidey in years and he was endearing while he was at it, with the whole "everyone's seen his face" working as a great story hook that sets him apart from other Spiders.
            Still seething that the Red suit (and its Symbiote counterpart) didn't make it into the second Insomniac game.

            • 4 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              Idunno, i feel like Fake Red ended pretty nicely, even if it ended due to cancellation
              Peter gets the suit back, Yu gains the confidence he needed and is happy even if his crush only likes him as a friend
              He did the "great responsibility" part without the great power, helped where he could and contrary to Peter and other spider-people, can now go back to being a normal kid, giving him power would honestly tarnish the story of Fake Red.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >is happy even if his crush only likes him as a friend
                So dude gets no b***hes? That sucks.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Yeah his Gwen lookalike love interest turns out to be a lesbian with a crush on a redhead

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Lame and gay.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                True
                Also Silk is cute in this

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Forgot image

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >his crush only likes him as a friend
                Because she's a dyke.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            I just want a Fake Red follow-up with Yu taking up a Spider Mantle. My man deserves it, he's the closest thing to an honest legacy character I've seen out of Spidey in years and he was endearing while he was at it, with the whole "everyone's seen his face" working as a great story hook that sets him apart from other Spiders.
            Still seething that the Red suit (and its Symbiote counterpart) didn't make it into the second Insomniac game.

            >Fake Red
            If Peter ain't the protag complete with his iconic supporting cast and villains, it's not real Spider-Man. Fake Red's just another gimmick. Nowhere near the genuine article.

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Who's the big fire guy?

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Molten Man.

  2. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    The clone saga is when spider-man ended. Everything after that is basically a reboot. Better to just assume Pete and MJ moved to the burbs, raised their kid (probably mayday from that MC2 universe) and then just pretend that's it. I really wish they had the balls to let Pete retire and make Ben the new spidey and pass down the mantle Flash style.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >probably mayday from that MC2 universe

      I feel like the modern day meme of the Clone Saga being bad wasn't truly reflective of the time people were reading this comics monthly. Spider-Girl started as a standalone What If? issue and managed to get so much support it ended up being a 100 issue comic series on its own, as a direct sequel to a retconned ending of The Clone Saga.

      100 issues is huge for that kind of shit. You'd never have that happen now. People in the 90's really must have actually hated the brutal status quo reset.

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Like this anon

        Read the Life of Reilly blog that has editors and other people involved with it going over all the meddling and interference from the accountants demanding continuing the story, hologram covers, scarlet spider books for mini age of apocalypse, etc.

        also, wizard magazine hated on clone saga at every opportunity driving the perception it was bad or one of worst storylines ever when is quite good and well received for first half or so.

        mentioned Wizard was really, really pushing the idea that the Clone Saga was the worst thing to ever happen in the history of man but sales didn’t really reflect that, in fact I’m pretty sure the only reason Peter came back as soon as he did was because Marvel had new owners who insisted that Peter Parker had to be Spider-Man. However, ironically, the whole Clone Saga started as a way to do away with the Spider-Marriage, something the now “worst thing to ever happen in the history of man” actually pulled the trigger on

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >the only reason Peter came back as soon as he did was because Marvel had new owners who insisted that Peter Parker had to be Spider-Man
          According to Life of Reilly it was because Jurgens told whoever was editor at the time that replacing Peter just wasn't going to work no matter how hard they tried, and they reluctantly agreed

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            They're right. And they're still right, given how any attempt to slot in Miles over Peter is always met with backlash and scorn.

            • 4 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              Well yeah, replacing Peter was moronic and was never gonna work. I'd be lying though if I said I'd prefer what we have now over what could have been with Ben. At least Peter wouldn't be a loser

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                If you're gonna replace Peter with anyone, top of the list is either Ben or Mayday. Those are the only two who could make it work, and honestly I would really like to see what it would look like if they followed through from Clone Saga and made it into a Ben Spidey book with Peter and his family as supporting cast members.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                The issue with Ben replacing Peter is that it will always be a concession to "Spider-Man as a father can't work"
                It would have to be a temporary thing while May is very young, after which point Peter would step back into the role

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                > "Spider-Man as a father can't work"
                I mean it'd be pretty hard if you also want to portray Peter as a good father who's there for his kids when they need him

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Wizard were complaining about the Clone Saga BEFORE IT STARTED. Never forget that. For as much as they shilled for the early years of Image, most of Wizard's writers were 80s Marvel guys who were constantly seething that Spider-Man comics weren't the same as they were back when Stern was writing anymore.

  3. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    For me the wedding is the jump off point. I have stuff that I like after the wedding, but it's when the books start to really get too wonky for me. The return of the parents was particularly egregious, just plain terrible.

  4. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    I am once again posting this because where once I laughed at this guy the more I have come around to his way of thinking

    https://originalmarveluniverse.blogspot.com/2009/06/omu-end.html

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      It ended up getting me thinking about the cutoff points for the Second Marvel Universe.

  5. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >Norman Osborne who has been dead for actually 17 years shows up

    This was a mistake and Marvel is too stupid to realize why

    >Aunt May isn't dead, it was just an actress

    That doesn't happen till years later but yes, that was bad. For all intents and purposes Aunt May is still dead up until Byrne does his retcon. If you continue, stop before Byrne comes on board (which means skipping Gathering of Five/Final Chapter and pretending everything after never happened) and from there you may as well go over and read Spider-Girl.

  6. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Read the Life of Reilly blog that has editors and other people involved with it going over all the meddling and interference from the accountants demanding continuing the story, hologram covers, scarlet spider books for mini age of apocalypse, etc.

    also, wizard magazine hated on clone saga at every opportunity driving the perception it was bad or one of worst storylines ever when is quite good and well received for first half or so.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      The biggest thing for me is that Harras fricking introduced the stolen baby plotline with no intention to ever resolve it, we were just lucky that DeFalco cared enough to cover it in a What If that exploded in popularity

  7. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >>Aunt May isn't dead, it was just an actress
    To be fair this wasn't in the ending to Clone Saga, this happened like three years after that

  8. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >May is still kidnapped
    >Anna is still trapped in hell

    You know, most superheroes are awful fathers but Peter fricked up real bad twice and he still didn't even tried to rescue any of them.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Blame editorial

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      and to make things even more fricked up is the fact we saw alternate timeline versions of them, so we know they are good people, that they will risk their lives to save others, and they still ended up having this awful fate.

  9. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >Knowing that JMS's run in-between this and OMD is actually very good
    It really isn't.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      It's better than what we had with Slott and especially Zeb

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