imo this isn’t really batman
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imo this isn’t really batman
imo this isn’t really batman
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I feel like this book gets a lot of undue attention. It's not on the same level as Watchmen. Miller is not as intelligent as Moore. This is more of an "old man yelling at the government and also venting about how much he fricking hates X-Men" thing.
DKR is one of most misunderstood books in comics and sad cuz of how simple it is, it isn't this realistic and grounded dark edgy Batman story like lot of people think it is, while yes it's got dark world gritty look it's more a big epic about the return of a classic hero and almost like more serious modern version of the Sliver Age Batman (which is a shame West didn't voice him in the animated film https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZ211GBe6e0), It's classic classic Batman thrown into a darker 80's world and turning that world into bright comic book madness and DKR2 is shit but kinda carries that on ward also remember DKR Batman isn't same guy as other Miller's Batmen who written almost as different characters.
>also remember DKR Batman isn't same guy as other Miller's Batmen who written almost as different characters.
It is though, but I doubt Miller actually thinks too hard about the continuity. Batman is Batman to him.
DKR Batman still not the same character as like ASBAR and shit.
He is. ASBAR just isn't a finished work. You can see a more serious Batman towards the end of what was made when he comforts Dick at the grave. The coda of AllStar was to show how Batman went from his early days to being the iconic Batman.
To Miller, Bruce being Batman is a thrill. "I love being The Goddamn Batman" is just a less eloquent version of Batman ruminating about rain on his chest and wolves howling making him feel young again in DKR. Miller's Batman loves taking down punks, loves causing terror and embraces being Batman. Year One is the most different, but Batman is barely in it and even then you see him learning to master intimidation.
Your observstions are wasted on these millennial homosexuals
but anon, I am a millenial homosexual!
It's still the best one.
Honestly, it's pretty underrated. I see a lot more hate toward this than toward much shittier comics.
I'd put it right under Watchmen as 2nd best superhero comic.
Watchmen is a thinking book, DKR is an emotionally driven book. I think they're a valid duality to being the big two of cape comics, even though I don't love DKR. Watchmen is very tightly composed, even in terms of art, DK is more loosely written and drawn. It's a more raw work, it calls for emotional reaction, positive or negative.
Lol TDKR is arguably smarter and inarguably better than watchmen.
That’s literally because of this comic.
c**ts like you create c**ts like these
Did you need your wife's boyfriend to unscrew the Soilent cap for you today?
Did you already forget, homosexual?
I needed your wife's boyfriend to suck my cum out of your ass so I could rawdog you afresh, while I chugged the Soilent that I opened myself with one hand.
So that's a yes then?
You're such a homosexual it hurts
then who's that guy right there
Whatever delusion you have that Batman is, you're wrong.
Miller Batman is composite 40s-70s Batman, not the gimpy Starlin-derived homosexual you probably adore.
>Muh Dark and Gritty
80s Batman was dark and gritty, read any comic from the area for that pseudo nihilistic bullshit. Miller Batman actually brought back some of the fun 40s material all while telling a story in the Gothic world of O'Neill's invention.
Also a true super-scientist/world's greatest detective. Miller Batman is the ideal
I thought O'Neil and Starlin Batman was the same?
O'Neill Batman = Gothic Detective, Starlin Batman = the Beginning of the post modern era. Death in the Family, Batman leaving KGBeast to die, Batman as a cultist, etc.
Yes, because Batman is portrayed as a violent white male who has to be pacified by woke women in it.
If you're watching a Batman movie and Batman
1) Beats up prisoners
2) Just savagely attacks random thugs with no bigger plan
it's not really a Batman movie. It's a deconstruction.
Ellen Yendel says "nobody can fly" in world where Superman exists.
You clearly haven't read the book if you don't know why Commissioner Yindel believes that.
moron alert
DKR wasn't tightly written. You can tell book 1 was created one way, almost like a sequel to the 66 show, then it gets to the national level stuff with Superman and Reagan.
already addressed it, but John Byrne actually kind of said something similar. He was at DC offices at the time and got to see DKR as it was being made
https://byrnerobotics.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=35901&PN=0&TPN=17
>DARK KNIGHT RETURNS is a book that came after WATCHMEN. Frank was working on it around the same time I was working on MAN OF STEEL. Jenette was handing out xeroxes of WATCHMEN as the work came in. I was unimpressed. Frank changed direction halfway thru DKR. The WATCHMEN effect was that fast, and that early.
They were being made at the same time with DKR debuting in February of 86 and Watchmen debuting in September.
If anything, the opposite is true, either way is hearsay coming from Byrne who is eternally jealous of both Miller and Moore's success
Amazing Heroes has the actual shipping dates. Watchmen #1 wasn't released in September, it was released in May 1986.
And Batman: The Dark Knight #1 was published in February. What's your point exactly?
June 1986.
Nope.
June 1986 was the reprint, Batman: The Dark Knight Returns
Batman: The Dark Knight #1 was published in February of 1986
Other sources say March 1986, comicbookdb and this CGC.
>, comicbookdb
the dead website?
The actual press release and my penis gives the real info
https://www.progressiveruin.com/2008_11_23_archive.html#5990459438422697313
Press release means shit.
Delays happen.
You keep on deluding yourself that "Muh Watchmen came first" but the fact is that DKR was half in the bag by the time Watchmen had finished being scripted.
>DKR was half in the bag
Yes. That's the original point. HALFWAY through DKR, is where the alleged shift occurs.
I'm not the same person as that gay.
Just trying to get the facts. None of this is very solid evidence.
It has been said that they both got it from American Flagg!.
#4 of Dark Knight had a tentative release in late May, and even Amazing Heroes noted it could be delayed, as it said on this page. Byrne asserts that halfway through Dark Knight he and Miller read xeroxes of Watchmen (which could mean anything from pencils or even pencils/inks). I don't know why this is hard to believe. Did you think they just started Watchmen after Miller finished Dark Knight #4 or something?
You keep on moving goalposts.
First you quote Byrne's exact statement that DKR came after Watchmen with no amendment meaning you support that statement.
Now you're amending that statement to say that Miller looked at the material halfway through.There's nothing hard to believe about what you're asking, but what's hard to believe about the possibility that maybe Moore was inspired by DKR?
The point is you can't really prove shit one way or the other.
>Now you're amending that statement to say that Miller looked at the material halfway through.
I didn't change anything. That's what Byrne said.
> Frank changed direction halfway thru DKR.
You can believe him or disbelieve him about that, but you seem to think people in comic companies don't read get to read stuff early in the offices. Did you forget about that NeoGaf leaker who had the civil war 2 #1 plot in January, when the book was going to be released in May?
>I didn't change anything. That's what Byrne said.
You changed your argument half way through.
>You can believe him or disbelieve him about that, but you seem to think people in comic companies don't read get to read stuff early in the offices.
Now you're using pilpul to derail the conversation from the original premise, your support of the argument that DKR came after Watchmen when the reality is quite the opposite.
>a lot of it just seems like something you'd get out of sheer cultural osmosis from Batman
Where do you think that osmosis comes from? The air? No, it came from Bill Finger, Sheldon Moldoff, Dick Sprang, Gardner Fox etc. working on the character for 30 years.
>In terms of alien threats that seems more like a hint at Superman or other DC heroes than the Golden age sci-fi stories.
It can be both at the same time. I believe it was more specifically a reference to the thanagarians
>Joker had already been a murderer again for a while by then
not really, the 80s didn't make much use of him until after 1986. He was on the way out as a villain and O'Neill barely used him.
As far as Alfred being a parental figure it's ironically mostly a development of DKRs Wayne Manor burning sequence with Al holding the frame of young Bruce.
>what would you credit as specifically being Adam's touch
Take a look at the "Neon Baptism" sequence, it's obviously Frank imitating Adam's art style.
>You changed your argument half way through.
Where?
kek.
Keep posting homie.
That's the last of the sequence. But if you did it in the storytelling style of 80s Miller and only did slight tweaks, it wouldn't feel out of place with DKR (what with how many times Batman gets wounded)
>but what's hard to believe about the possibility that maybe Moore was inspired by DKR?
Watchmen was plotted far in advance of DKR, Moore wasn't in NYC, Miller was. Focusing on cover dates is pointless since they're notoriously iffy on older books, and besides Byrne specifically says they were looking at xeroxes, not the published product.
>Watchmen was plotted far in advance of DKR,
Hearsay same as everything else you wrote.
Why are you sucking Byrne's scrote so hard?
Here's the thing; none of this makes DKR a bad book, just one that wasn't planned thoroughly and more like Miller working off the cuff, and possibly inspired by outside contemporary sources. All of which are Miller's typical workflow. Take it or leave it as its anecdotal evidence, done by a biased source, sure. I won't blame you for being hesitant over taking Byrne's word. But its an interesting discussion to have, instead of sticking your fingers in your ears and saying there's no possible way Miller had seen Watchmen or gotten influence from it.
You keep on saying this nonsense, but all I come back to is this one thing:
Have you considered the possibility that maybe Moore was looking at Miller's material? The gridding, the usage of multiple mediums(TV, newspapers, etc.) are all present in DK1.
>Have you considered the possibility that maybe Moore was looking at Miller's material?
Without a doubt, Miller's work was influential on anyone who worked in comics from the 80's onward in some way. I have no doubt Miller's daredevil influences how Moore handles to NYC landscape in watchmen. But here's the thing; Moore being influenced by Miller isn't the anecdote that was brought up, but rather the opposite.
This isn't a dickwave contest about my favorite creator vs your favorite creator(I like Moore, Miller Byrne, and Gibbons), its more about Miller's workflow and the development of DK, and why the later books have a noted shift from the first two that a lot of readers have noticed over the years.
DC employees are able to see product before it releases. Watchmen had a longer production pipeline and less delays. Its hard to gauge now because we only have coverdates to go by, but DKR's later issues were infamously delayed by months. Miller was in New york at the time and close to DC's offices, probably going in regularly, while Moore was overseas as far as I know.
Writers checking out stories before publication isn't uncommon; infamously Bill Mantlo wrote a hulk story inspired by Barry Windsor Smith's Hulk project, which had yet to be completed(which pissed BWS so much he took the project and reworked it as monsters.)
Its Batman, just not a Batman I care to read about. Not enough gothic noir element to it. Batman being grounded to any politics will always seem silly to me.
Funny you mention Starlin because he and Miller both commit the crime of writing Batman in a contemporary 80's setting. Hate KG Beast, Hate Reagan and the 80's real world issue parallels in DK. Gotham should be an otherworldly place out of time.
>. Miller Batman actually brought back some of the fun 40s material
Like what? There's an anon here who always claims Frank Miller's Batman is the successor to 40's/50's Batman and I just don't see it. Yes he has the old costume again, but I don't see it as particularly that era of Batman, nor do I think Miller was ever as obsessive over continuity to specifically be trying to bring specific character elements from it.
Batman has a sort of dark sense of humor alluding to his quippy nature from the 40s
Allusions to the Battech of the 40s and 50s via things like the Batglider and Battank
Constantly talking about alien threats "Only thing that can put a hole in this thing is not from this world" while 70s and 80s Batman was more focused on mafia, occult or even ghost-like threats
Joker behaves like Golden Age Joker with his murderous gags and elaborate plots
Batman's parental nature surrounding kids
Alfred as Batman's butler, not his dad
Batman having or at least having had a rehabilitative personality
Bruce Wayne being a publicly known playboy adventurer and super-scientist type guy instead of the dits modern stories play him as
The fact that Batman's pretty much already got the mystery solved at the start of every each issue.
DKR is 40s/50s/60s Bruce Wayne merged with Denny O'Neill's, but really Neal Adam's Bruce Wayne living in the world of the 1980s
I appreciate the reply but I don't really see how most of those are beholden to the Golden/Silver ages specifically. a lot of it just seems like something you'd get out of sheer cultural osmosis from Batman. Even if the comics downplayed the batgadgets like the batplane, it still was understood as something Batman used even then.
In terms of alien threats that seems more like a hint at Superman or other DC heroes than the Golden age sci-fi stories.
Joker had already been a murderer again for a while by then
Alfred being Bruce's parental figure is a far more recent development and him being a late addition in Batman's life was still in effect well into the 80's
Which isn't to discredit your post entirely,I think its a valid take and can enriches an interpretation, even though I don't think it was a conscious decision.
>Denny O'Neill's, but really Neal Adam's Bruce Wayne
I'm actually curious about this because despite his art skills I've never thought of Adams much as a writer, what would you credit as specifically being Adam's touch or take on Bruce Wayne influencing Miller?
I think a better example might be this sequence from Batman #5
>Talks like a father figure to Robin
>Dislikes like guns
>Has a no kill rule
>Very serious
>Doesn't break or give up
Sounds like Batman to me.
>takes kids who used to dress up as nazis and makes them a part of his street police where they will spend a lifetime beating up people on the streets instead of using his funds to provide proper education for them and make them valuable members of society
People will unironically defend this.
Yeah it's a comic book.
wow bro you're so smart for realizing that batman isn't a role model for to handle the rehabilitation of criminals and social welfare.
(i am being sarcastic, you are a stupid bastard.)
>instead of using his funds to provide proper education for them and make them valuable members of society
What do you think happens to troubled kids exactly?
Kids like the mutants get funneled through the Juvie system, they get expelled from any school they go to. Batman answers their problem by giving them the Robin experience. He teaches them how to fight and all the life lessons that come with that.
The final page of DKR is the promise that Bruce Wayne is going to military drill these kids into men and women of substance.
Would you rather they keep on living out a far right anarcho day-dream? The fascist thing to do would leave them where they are.
>takes kids who used to dress up as nazis
That’s not what happened.
The Mutants, as far as what’s said in the story, is not a racial group, they’re just misanthropistic cultists who worship the mutant leader. As soon as he’s defeated and humiliated, they split up into all these factions. Most become the “Sons of Batman,” who follow Batman. There’s also a neo-nazi gang of ex-mutants. There’s also an ex-mutant gang who dress up as the Joker and follow him. There’s also a group of ex-mutants who call themselves “Nixons” and wear Nixon masks. It’s literally just one group splits into a million factions, most for Batman. Saying Batman took kids who dress up as nazis and made them street police is just a failure of literacy.
this is every frank miller comic
Any story where Batman is in an actual inspiration to people just makes these millennials rub their microclits in leftist angst.
Not true. Leftists praise the latest Batman movie.
that's because the last 30 minutes take a cartoony turn of events to make the riddler an undisputed bad guy and teach batman that beating Black folk to death isn't the only way to make a difference
It's like everyone has to take a crack at the "jaded hero years in the dystopian future" schtick.
I don't get how Batman Year One, DKR and DK2 are supposed to be in the same continuity.
another one
>Year One
Batman returns to Gotham after years of study nd training.
He encounters a conspiracy of organized criminals connected to the Mafia, police force, and even goes as far as the Mayors office
He enlists the help of a grizzled LT. Gordon to help fight his emerging crusade on crime
>ASBAR
Batman has been dealing with a corrupt Gotham for years now.
Supervillains begin to rear their ugly heads
Batman's superpeers question whether Batman is an appropriate solution to the problem of Gotham supervillains
>DKR
The coterie of DC Superheroes have been forcibly retired by the US Government via a taskforce led by a BlackOps Superman for some event that occurred 10 years prior
The government supplies a group of domestic terrorists named Mutants with weaponry as justification for an increased defense budget
Batman reawakens after an event similar to the event that took his parents from him, all hell breaks loose.
>DK2
Batman uncovers the conspiracy deep within the Government, revealing Lex Luthor and Braniac as the twin co-conspirators of the world's imprisonment.
Batman saves city > Batman saves nation > Batman saves world
It all gels better than mainstream Batman does tbh
This is being waaaaaaaaaaay too generous with the shit he wrote. You're an amazing salesman, as you'd be able to sell snow to an Eskimo.
Because Miller sucks shit. You also forgot his Spawn/Batman book is in the same continuity. Along with All-Star Batman and Robin The Boy Wonder, and DK3.
Year One and DKR are definitely in the same continuity.
Sarah Essen is Gordon's wife in DKR.
The opening page of Gordon drinking with Batman implied that Gordon knew Bruce was Batman in Batman Year One but played along for plausible deniability
DK2 is where things get dicier but it takes place in a universe where ASBAR and Spawn/Batman and maybe Miller's Holy Terror (as a Batman book) happened along with Year One and DKR.
>imo
Well you are objectively wrong. 100% of Batman content after it has been influenced by it in ways you take for granted now. If you were to hypothetically read every single Batman comic from Detective Comics #27 (1939) to the latest book by DC, you would instantly recognize The Dark Knight Returns for the solid turning point it is
It was a breath of fresh air in the 80's
40 years on, the brooding psychotic Batman wears thin
Batman is neithe brooding or psychotic in DKR.
He's actually Cable wearing power armor but no one noticed.
t. popular opinion
frank miller is fricking garbage.
Miller (pre-9/11) is good actually.
That is certainly an opinion.
Miller is interesting.