it should be called Justice League 2 tho, it's too big to stay a Flash movie.
and no, I didn't have a problem with the cgi dead actors. it's not disrespectul the same way AI voices are.
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 Nothing Ever Happens Shirt $21.68 |
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it was pretty good, actually.
>the first ever Flash solo movie is an adaptation of Flashpoint that mixes Man of Steel with Michael Keaton’s Batman, with no Flash villains in sight
>Flash but evil
Dark Barry is Flash but evil
No he isn't, he's Flash-but-moronic. He goes back a zillion times and accomplishes nothing but collecting shrapnel (which he is faster than).
He's doing nothing malicious, he's just a tard.
it fricking sucked. it was unconvincing, pointless, anticlimactic and a betrayalof superheroes.
unconvincing because if the barrys can travel back in time they could get as many tries as they want and the idea of labeling it "inevitable" is fricking lazy cause there are 100 ways they could beat the cryptonians especially with super girl's help. supergirl should not have been a hero because she didn't have the same upbringing as clark and noreso because she only ever saw the bad side of humanity so her motivation was totally fricked. also he literally changes the past to free his dad and it is stated that what he does isn't time travel, but run into other universes so the dad at the start, the one with batfleck, is still in jail.
pointless because all of this being undone essentially makes this a dream episode since everything that happened gets undone, which wouldn't be so bad if it wered for how anti climactic it was in the end. dark barry just shows up and dies, the end.
finally the betrayal of superheroes. even if barry can't have his mom back, this alternate universe barry should have been able to. with the help of main barry they could have saved alt barry's world and main barry could accept that what's happened has happened and run back to his universe. would have held the flashpoint message while not bullshitting you about how timetravel isn't a fix all by showing you that what barry does isn't actually time travel.
this movie fricking sucks, but i hate flashpoint anyway so i'm bias
It didn’t matter if they had unlimited tries to change things, their deaths were fixed. The world was going to die no matter what.
when they literally have infinite retries and even find a way to hurt actually hurt the kryptonians with the shrapnel in the fight and they also have a kryptonian on their side, that whole "the world was doomed anyway" approach was very unconvincing, especially when main barry quickly gives up. there's 2 fricking barrys there and also every time they went back in time the old barrys were there still so they really could have stacked the barrys. this movie just wants to force an unheroic ending
This. And they only go back to the start of the fight? Why not spend the morning stealing an atomic weapon for Batman to drop?
Why not shuffle off to the World Engine and blow THAT up, then start picking off the Kryptonians one at a time post-battle?
and it could have still ended with barry not really winning cause in the end this is an alt timeline so nothing here is his, not him mom and not his free dad so the point of knowing what you can and can't change will still stick. this movie could have been good
>and it could have still ended with barry not really winning cause in the end this is an alt timeline so nothing here is his
The script-by-committee seems unsure of that itself, Barry seems convinced at many points that he's mucked up his own past, he even goes back with the intention of fixing his past, then at the end he does change his past.
Don't get me wrong, a lot of time travel/parallel timeline flicks frick this up.
This is clearly "we Endgame too", whether intentional or not the MCU jumps out and does every DCU movie plot first (and better). Only Aquaman's riff on Thor is at least as good. You could argue Wonder Woman compares well to First Avenger but I would fite you over it.
>Why not spend the morning stealing an atomic weapon for Batman to drop?
Uh, because there’s US troops there when Zod launches his invasion? It would also make the movie more bloated. The final fight had issues and they didn’t do a good job selling the “no win scenario” but that wasn’t it.
>Uh, because there’s US troops there when Zod launches his invasion?
Flash seems to have zero problem letting the whole planet get glassed. And those guys were basically dead anyway? Losing let's say a thousand guys to save Earth from aliens? Seems better than just giving up?
The entire fricking point was that only Superman could stop Zod. By replacing him with Kara who’s totally inexperienced it was never going to end in Zod being defeated. That’s why he had to go back and let his mom die to restore the timeline.
>The entire fricking point was that only Superman could stop Zod.
In a direct fist fight, sure. But they had a ton of options beyond just showing up and trading knuckles with him. But the movie had wasted too much runtime with Barry's flat-mates arguing over Back to the Future, so frick all that I guess.
They had zero other options. Even besides Zod there’s an entire army of Kryptonians to worry about. There is no kryptonite. Conventional weapons barely do anything. They don’t have time to start going on robbing nukes and retrofitting them. And further timeline alteration shenanigans could just make things worse.
>Conventional weapons barely do anything
Bullshit, Faora was ko'd by a Hellfire. Fresh off the ship, a nuke would've fricked them.
Or destroy the world engine that they have no way of fixing (being soldiers).
Then Kara and young Barry and Bats can guerilla war them, there's maybe two dozen of them tops. They already know their susceptibility to red sunlight.
>They already know their susceptibility to red sunlight.
Frick! That's a good point! I'm surprised no one else brought this up
Right light is not going to do dick in the middle of the day out in the open
You really can't think of ways they could use that out in the open? Really?
Most of the Kryptonians are also fully armoured. So no.
By the same logic our yellow sun shouldn't be powering them, then. Think this through.
Why not knock out their face masks like Cavill did?
Also...why he never tried to find the identity of the real assassin?
And why would his father staying at home deter this assassin in the first place?
Because then there's a man home? Don't tell me you don't understand the implication of this.
So her death was just some arbitrary normal guy who wanders into their house in broad daylight to stab her to death? Wouldn't you just go back and throw that guy off a cliff then, so he doesn't go next door and kill someone else? The sorting of canned tomatoes seems moronic.
didn't the director confirm that reverse flash is the assassin?
I believe it was mentioned that at some point in the scripting process, that Reverse Flash WAS going to be involved. But that seemed to go nowhere.
And why would Barry's Dad thwart Reverse Flash if that WERE true?
He wouldn't, be since Barry is assuming it was just a regular Joe who killed his mom, it's only logical he'd want his father to be there.
>since Barry is assuming it was just a regular Joe who killed his mom, it's only logical he'd want his father to be there.
Why? His father is just some guy. HE'S the one with vast superhuman powers, with a degree in criminal investigations. What if his Dad being there means both are stabbed to death? Or he comes back the following Friday when Dad is off doing errands?
It's stupid no matter how you try and justify it. He would logically go back to protect his mother, under the assumption that the killer is at least a menace to society as a whole and should be stopped, not inconvenienced.
It’s because Barry moved into another universe. A universe where Reverse Flash never intervened nor exists. The obvious reason being that Zod terraformed the planet so Thawne was never born.
Also, Reverse Flash's involvement would run counter to the "we MCU too" divergent timeline plot point, as he would just be fricking with a different Barry at that point.
No, you’re biased. Not bias.
You know, I wasn't sure if I liked the movie or not since there was some stuff that I liked, but your post helped me figure it. A shame that they could have written a decent story even with the multiverse crap they shoved in.
>Everybody's getting sick of multiverses.
>Let's do one now.
DC.
multiverse works as a gimmick, once
To be fair, back when this was conceived they were only ripping off one Marvel movie, but the numerous delays meant that 5 different movies had released with this plot by time it was shit into theaters.
It had also been mucked with more than Josstice League which didn't help.
only the ending was changed, how is that in any way like Josstice League?
The script and even the directors had been changed multiple times. No one knew what they wanted from this movie, which is objectively worse than Josstice League.
>ripping off one Marvel movie
MCUtards, everyone.
I liked it too OP
people are being unnecessarily harsh on it/nitpicking because of the circumstances, but my Mom who knew none of the drama watched it with me and really thought it was great. I think history will look back fondly on it once the dust settles
>h-henlo?
Not to mention the whole "your mother wasn't killed, so now there are no superhumans except Supergirl". Are we to believe this affected the events of WW1 and it's superhuman interference?
>he didn't understood the spagetti analogy
he didn't changed the past, he moved to a different timeline.
Everyone understood the spaghetti analogy, as this explanation has been drummed into audiences in movies both superhero and not.
(nonwithstanding how Burton-bats knows this sorta thing in his non-superhuman timeline, even Fatfleck has no basis to knowing this).
The plot of the movie doesn't seem certain that he's in a parallel timeline until it's time to inject that plot beat. And we are supposed to be relieved that all the other alternate timelines are rescued, but not care that Keatonbats is fricked?
>The plot of the movie doesn't seem certain that he's in a parallel timeline until it's time to inject that plot beat.
...there is another flash, don't know how much more certain you can get.
>And we are supposed to be relieved that all the other alternate timelines are rescued, but not care that Keatonbats is fricked?
the movie implied all damage was undone, so the time travel never happened to begin with. It did a poor job at showing it mind you.
>the movie implied all damage was undone, so the time travel never happened
But the movie also asserts that you really can't go back in your own time to "fix" things?
This was my original point; it's a time-travel movie when it suits the plot, and a parallel universe movie when the plot "needs" it. It's the worst aspects of MCU's time-travel/parallel universe/multiverse shenanigans, and even worse because those flicks tried to keep that separate in different movies.
Did you miss the part where Barry ends up in another timeline with Clooney Batman?
Sure didn't, and I saw this mess in theaters first week. By it's own logic, young Barry being killed by himself shouldn't have undone ANYTHING, maybe it would have created new scenarios. But it shouldn't have prevented events/wiped them away, because the movie also asserts that can't be done?
The movie does a good way to explain that with the spaghetti. Time travel doesn’t just change the the future, it also affects the past and can create a radically different type of timeline
You would think a guy who's background is criminal science would FIRST think of apprehending the perpetrator before he could carry out the murder, not rearrange circumstances so he goes off to do some other crime that doesn't personally affect you.
He was warned about changing type due to the butterfly effect. That’s why he figured that just ensuring his dad doesn’t go to the store would be enough. Apprehending the killer would risk way too much altering things.
That's stupid, and assuming a WHOLE LOT.
There's no logic to the survival of Barry's Mom having this worldwide effect on Atlanteans, aliens from another world, ect. The removal of the Infinity Stones simply leaves that timeline without the power of the Stone, for good or ill, it doesn't make WW2 not happen.
>It’s not logical!
It’s the butterfly effect, stupid. It doesn’t have to make logical sense. That’s the whole point that you can’t predict the consequences because altering time affects both past AND present and creates an entirely new timeline in the multiverse.
The butterfly effect is a cascade of unintended changes that occur AFTER the point you interfered. going back 10 years and doing some shit would not affect WW1 or Arthur's circumstances up to the point of your interference. That's now how butterfly effects work.
Barry didn’t go back in time. He traveled into another universe where Reverse Flash didn’t kill his mom. That universe had KeatonBats and Superman dieing as a baby. Multiverse, not time travel.
So in effect nothing he could do would save HIS Mom, or spring HIS Dad from prison, thus making the entire movie a pointless waste of time (and money).
Basically, time travel isn’t possible and you can’t change the past. You can only move into a different universe where things played out differently, but the world you came from still exists as-is with ZERO changes. Time CAN’T be rewritten.
So every time young Barry tries again, he mysteriously creates (or enters?) a new universe with the exact same circumstances (to that point) and loses to Zod again? Thus creating millions of universes where Earth is glassed by Kryptonians?
That's....pretty stupid for a movie plot? Also why does him killing his younger self suddenly erase the impeding multiversal catastrophe if things can't be undone in the past?
I enjoy people trying to explain shitty movie plots written by people who barely cared, btw.
The two Barrys aren’t creating new universes. It’s the same universe. Significant events like Nora’s death can’t be changed without going into another universe to get a different outcome. Every time the two Barrys traveled back, they’d get the same outcome ie the world dies. Same outcome, same universe. The details can be changed, but the end result is the same.
Wait so that makes no sense. The whole plot is that Barry goes back to change shit and ends up in a parallel timeline. But now he can go back, do something different and NOT switch to a parallel timeline? Then at the end he goes back, does something different and ends up in ANOTHER parallel timeline?
And he explains all the flimsy multiverse stuff to a Mamoaman that may not actually even be his Mamoaman.
It doesn't sound like it's his Mamoaman, yeah.
It's kinda cathartic to know Ezra Miller is eternally lost, unable to return to his own timeline, though.
Sounds like Quantum Leap.
Or Sliders!
Sliders was too kino for this world so Fox had to frick it up. It's some GRRM voodoo shit.
They weren’t changing anything important in the battle. KeatonBats and Supergirl still die, Zod wins. Slight changes to shit that doesn’t matter does not create a new universe. The world dying was a fixed event that couldn’t be changed and it wasn’t.
>The world dying was a fixed event that couldn’t be changed
No one asserts this but Barry, after trying all of twice. Now you are just inserting Spider-Man Canon Events to try and shore up this trainwreck of a film.
This shit isn’t Spider-Verse. Fixed points are a classic time travel trope. Fricking Doctor Who did it way before Spider-Verse.
Does Doctor Who engage in all this parallel timeline shittery? I presume it's just as lot of mucking with the same timestream.
>Does Doctor Who engage in all this parallel timeline shittery?
Sometimes it does, yes.
A couple of times. It’s usually the same timeline. Fixed points are there to explain why certain events must always happen. The details leading up to it can be rewritten, but the outcome will always be the same. Breaking a fixed event will break the whole universe. All of time and space collapses into one another and everything dies.
Other Barry proved it when he becomes Dark Flash after trying and failing innumerable times
Then why wasn't Donnerman and all the other universes being destroyed not a "Canon Event" (a term that doesn't even exist in this movie).
How can all that shit be undone/prevented when you can't change anything major from happening?
You can argue this with Butterfly Effect Anon, not me. The problem with the movie is that it's shittily written (and even better written time escapade flicks have problems) and can't seem to decide the point of the movie.
It has good sections but overall isn’t good because there’s too many bad parts in it. And the many reshoots really hurt it.
>The way they depict time travel and how it turns into an arena with statues is AWFUL
>Flash in Gotham saving the babies set piece was a cool idea but the execution is atrociously bad and doesn’t worked
>the excessive old DCU cameos I don’t mind in theory but the way they were included was horrible and inorganic
>Some of the comedy is forced and doesn’t land, like the glued tooth bit or the WW lasso of truth. Had some good jokes though like the Michael J. Fox thing, etc.
>The songs used for the running scenes were not good. Way too hard trying to mimic X-men movies
>The movie really suffers from not having a clear villain. Black Flash disappears for way too long, Zod is so superfluous outside of being a plot device for killing Kara to establish the no win situation that you really understand why Shannon was frustrated with being just an action figure with no pathos because he has nothing to do.
>Keaton was consistently great
>Barry-2 being such a giant contrast to Barry-1 was very well done and B2 has a good arc but it feels very rushed when he then turns into Black Flash in the end. They also don’t do the endless loop of failed attempts to save Kara thing well.
It’s hard to say how much can be contributed directly to the reshoots but you can tell this was a movie killed through studio notes of thousand cuts and not having a clear director with a vision directing it hurt it the most.
Oh yeah and the new suit is kinda OK but the mask sucks. It’s too clunky, wtf did they have to ditch the JL version, it was way better if you just modified it a little
It actually didn’t have “many reshoots” at all. It was like 2 days, one for the scrapped Cavill ending filmed in September 2022 and one for the Clooney ending filmed in January 2023. That’s it.
Compared to films that have weeks to months of reshoots, it’s basically nothing.
They should've just swallowed their pride and kept the Cavill ending
Clooney ending was funny and Twilight Zone-esque but ends up feeling unsatisfying afterwards
>Clooney ending was funny and Twilight Zone-esque but ends up feeling unsatisfying afterwards
This. The Keaton ending they shot would have lessened the sting to the nostalgia viewers too after seeing "their" Batman die numerous times.
It's not just that but mainly because the Cavill ending has a comparatively satisfying narrative end like someone pointed out
>Barry didn't get he wanted but gets the next best thing, exonerating his dad and (mostly) fixing the timeline and helping others in the process
>Superman and Supergirl no last Kryptonians; possibly also meant Man of Steel went differently
>Keaton Batman now has a better timeline
It's still Twilight Zone-esque in that it feels mostly resolved except for Affleck Batman getting replaced
And if you didn't want to do the stinger showing Batfleck was alive then you could just replace it with that Aquaman ending
Yeah. I wonder why they changed it. It feels like more than just 'DC plans changed lol'.
>Zod is so superfluous outside of being a plot device for killing Kara to establish the no win situation that you really understand why Shannon was frustrated with being just an action figure with no pathos because he has nothing to do.
I hope she get another chance at the role in a better movie. I like her as Kara and she seem like a cool girl.
Also she cute.
Barry going back to do some stupid tomato can trick is the Tornado Scene of The Flash, some incredibly stupid scene injected to justify later plot beats.
Him giving up almost immediately in the final battle is the Neck-Snappering, where the movie abruptly shifts tone and totally fricks the leads characterization so the dumb plot can be neatly resolved.
It shows that DCU can be plenty craptastic without Snyder/Goyer, if there were any remaining doubt. Man of Steel was just had vastly better marketing, and audiences hadn't been beaten down with as many crappy DC flicks.
It's kinda different, all the tornado scene did was to kill Pa off stupidly, Clark could still have ended up a drifter regardless, while the first tomato scene is required for the rest of the Flash movie to happen
It was a pretty interesting Keatonbats+Supergirl movie with crummy Flash bookends.
Why was Zod's knife able to pierce Kara's skin?
Also, frick me, I want more of Keaton and Kara. I'm writing fanfiction of a version of that world that makes it, with no Barry. [Spoiler]I'm caught uo in filling the time gaps between Returns and 2013[/spoiler]
>Why was Zod's knife able to pierce Kara's skin?
It’s Kryptonian.
So was the ship's lazor that harmlessly bounced off KAL EL NOO!'s chest.
And Superman cuts an entire Kryptonian ship in half like it's nothing, and tears open the hull earlier in the movie. This movie is the first to assert that Kryptonian materials are super-durable.
Also, Zod and crew powered up much faster than in MoS.
A lot of shit happens in this movie for no real raisin except to set up dumb action scenes.
Because Kara has only spent couple of hours soaking the sun and it’s Kryptonian metal.
All the worlds where Barry’s mom is killed have a Reverse Flash in them to do it. All the worlds where Barry’s mom isn’t killed don’t have a Reverse Flash in them because those worlds die before he could ever be born.
MCU has The Watcher overseeing the various multiverses, and Kang keeping one timeline from splitting off into variants; these two things butt heads with one another, but Flash just picks and chooses from both and the plot ends up being pointless because of it.
If moving a can of forgotten tomatoes causes a parallel timeline (which is stupid, btw), then warning Batman against crashing into the ship creates a parallel timeline where he doesn't.
This is exactly my point, the movie is a stupid trainwreck of terrible writing that makes Spider-verse look like a work of genius.
Nora not buying the can of tomatoes causes Henry to go to the store and get it. Henry’s not in the house and Nora is murdered. Nora buying the can of tomatoes causes Henry to stay in the house and Nora isn’t murdered.
Yes, and the WHY of this should have been explored, along with how Henry staying home affects Kal El and Orm's mother and all the other shit.
Henry staying home affects Kal, because with no Henry who's gonna play him? A body double like in Shazam?
That might save Cavill's career from the DCEU.
They needed to decide whether Barry is traveling through time or sliding to alternate universes.
Or if moving back in time and doing ANYTHING but observe immediately shifts you to another reality, then the act itself is pointless, but also the Barry's traveling back and changing the circumstances in the Zod fight should have caused them to shift realities again by the very "rules" of the movie.
tl;dr it's just really bad dumb writing.
Again, they weren’t changing anything in the Zod fight because Zod wins no matter what. The change of circumstances amounted to nothing as Zod still wins in the end. Same outcome, same universe. Significant events are key here. Nora living is a significant event. Zod winning is a significant event. To get a different outcome is to move into a different universe with that outcome.
>Again, they weren’t changing anything in the Zod fight because Zod wins no matter what.
>Zod wins no matter what.
But why? The itself never asks us to accept this, Barry just gets tired of trying (twice) and Young Barry is too dumb to accomplish anything on his own. Nowhere in the movie does it explain Canon Events or their equivalent.
This is purely something you are injecting to justify Barry stopping giving a frick.
Any “changes” in the Zod fight were inconsequential. It did nothing. Zod wins because it’s a universe where he wins. There was nothing the two Barrys could’ve done because they just happened to be in a universe where Zod wins and the world dies.
Did Keaton-Bruce explain "unchangeable events" in that ridiculous exposition dump where he explains the premise of the whole film?
"Based on my long experience fighting chicks in catsuits and deformed penguin guys, alternate timelines work exactly like this."
We don’t know what happened between Returns and the Flash.
The world was doomed no matter what they did. Just one of many failed Earths.
>The movie was doomed no matter what they did. Just one of many failed DCEU flicks.
Fix'd.
Just watched it. It's easily 60 minutes too long. It doesn't pick up speed until half way through, and can't carry any momentum from scene to scene.
The "romance" scenes are completely pointless, as Miller has no sexual chemistry with anyone but his own past self.
Miller was surprisingly funny.
4U.
he’s always been funny, Snyder just sucks at directing actors and writing jokes
they should’ve revealed young barry was thawne pulling a fast one