Just finished this. What did you think of it?

Just finished this. What did you think of it?

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  1. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    It's kino

  2. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    It’s the best Batman comic, and you really appreciate it more when you read more of his comics. It’s strange, because it’s an entry-level comic everyone is expected to read, but if you (like I have) decide to undertake a complete understanding of Batman, reading comics from all his eras and learning his history, this comic only gets better. Typically entry-level stuff just gets forgotten once you get to the good stuff. I need to reread it again, it blew me away the last time I read it

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Great take, and on reading it I feel the same. It’s a great summation of everything people love about the Batman mythos.
      Bruce’s drive and his struggle with mortality in a harsh and unforgiving world.
      Robin’s hopefulness and how he (she) anchors Bruce and gives him a way to keep fighting after he’s defeated.
      Joker’s spectacular hatred of Bruce and his desire to ruin everything he holds dear.

      It’s a distilled shot of everything people love about the character. If I could I’d recommend anyone who wants to read Batman should read just this, and then stop, because this is everything they really need to know about Batman.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Things people say about Batman that probably originated from DKR:
        He blames himself for everyone Joker has killed, and Joker knows it
        He sees himself reflected in his villains and how he could’ve ended just like them
        Robin is the reason he doesn’t sink into despair, he needs Robin more than Robin needs him
        Bruce Wayne is the mask
        etcetera

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >If I could I’d recommend anyone who wants to read Batman should read just this, and then stop, because this is everything they really need to know about Batman.
        I hate secondaries so much.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          ok if dated art, hokey, campy writing.
          Cape comics weren't truly good until the 80's. You need to treat the old stuff with kid's gloves because they don't hold up otherwise.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >Cape comics weren't truly good until the 80's

            • 3 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              not bad

            • 3 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              bad

            • 3 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              mid

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          This isn't very good. Englehart's Bronze Age Joker is worth reading, though.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >but if you (like I have) decide to undertake a complete understanding of Batman, reading comics from all his eras and learning his history,

      I've also wanted to do this. I don't suppose you have a "curriculum" of books/issues to read for this, do you?

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >It’s the best Batman comic
      That would be Grant Morrison’s Arkham Asylum

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        The Dark Knight Returns is better.

  3. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Do you guys think this or Watchmen is better? I'm leaning toward Watchmen.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      both are good

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Watchmen for me, it's so tightly structured and I love all the various little bits of set-ups, callbacks, pay-offs, etc etc throughout each chapter.
      But TDKR is also great. It's something where I appreciate it more and more each time I read it. When I first read it at 12 or whatever, I didn't think it was all that great and liked Year One a lot more. These days, I know it's something special.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      DKR has more of an emotional core that engages me, Watchmen feels very sterile and pantomimed, even down to the art.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      DKR is a better comic book and use the elements of the medium and its conventions better.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      I don't see why this gets lumped in with Watchmen. It's gritty but it doesn't offer much interesting commentary on the genre.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        why does it need to have commentary?

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          To be comparable to Watchmen.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            not every story needs to be "watchmen"

            • 3 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              Re-read the entire comment chain from the start.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                my statement stands for itself

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        So basically it isn't a subversion but an actual comic book story.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        TDKR came out in 1986, Watchmen came out in 1987, and they were both some of the very first comics to be published formally as "graphic novels". It was a one-two punch of these being some of the first truly mature superhero comics (i.e., they weren't frivolous, childish, overwrought, and they actually had a end)

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >TDKR
          >not childish
          Eeehh...

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Compared to your average silver age comic it really isn't.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          No, they both came out in 1986.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Cinemaphile complains about Moore being preachy, but TDKR is much, much more preachy than anything in Watchmen.
        >my badass boomer Batman is always right about everything in society and everyone who disagrees is either stupid or evil
        Cinemaphile just doesn't mind it because they agree with him. Miller would side with Rorschach, too.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >Miller would side with Rorschach
          No way.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >Cinemaphile complains about Moore being preachy, but TDKR is much, much more preachy than anything in Watchmen.

          That's because Cinemaphile is moronic if they think Watchmen is "preachy" or that any of the viewpoints the characters express is supposed to be the "right" one. That's literally the point of the book.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      It's great. I wish more comics went balls out like this.

      Watchmen.

      DKR has more of an emotional core that engages me, Watchmen feels very sterile and pantomimed, even down to the art.

      I feel that Watchmen has more of an emotional core than TDKR. Even little moments like the death of Osterman's father were devastating.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        This page alone is more emotional and human than anything in Watchmen to me.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Out of the two, I've always felt that Frank Miller is a more honest artist than Moore. Maybe not as good of a writer, but more honest.
          Even his wacky post-9/11 stuff showcases this authenticity and rawness. Moore is too focused on riding a wizard's broom and not coming down to Earth.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Moore is LARPing as someone who thinks wizards are real which is even worse. He hides behind a layer of irony. Even now his politics are all holier-than-thou garbage that reeks of aging liberals.
            Miller seems like the kind of person that's interested in other people's stories and experiences. It helps his characters feel more varied and alive

            • 3 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              I agree. He's an imaginative guy and quite clever but also very pretentious and holier than thou which is annoying. Comes across as a champagne socialist a lot of the time. He's at his best when writing fiction and not making real life political commentary.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          This panel is as emotional to me as anything in TDKR.

          Out of the two, I've always felt that Frank Miller is a more honest artist than Moore. Maybe not as good of a writer, but more honest.
          Even his wacky post-9/11 stuff showcases this authenticity and rawness. Moore is too focused on riding a wizard's broom and not coming down to Earth.

          Moore is LARPing as someone who thinks wizards are real which is even worse. He hides behind a layer of irony. Even now his politics are all holier-than-thou garbage that reeks of aging liberals.
          Miller seems like the kind of person that's interested in other people's stories and experiences. It helps his characters feel more varied and alive

          I agree. He's an imaginative guy and quite clever but also very pretentious and holier than thou which is annoying. Comes across as a champagne socialist a lot of the time. He's at his best when writing fiction and not making real life political commentary.

          I disagree. They both really cared about the medium, but Moore felt he was slighted too many times and left, whereas Miller stuck around. Moore pursues his interests constantly, but Miller seems to have fallen off, still writing unwanted Dark Knight sequels and prequels and injecting awful political shit into the latest one (as an apology or as forced by an editor, not sure). I think you just dislike Moore for speaking his mind and for being more eccentric.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >This panel is as emotional to me as anything in TDKR.
            what's missing to me is a certain lived-in angle.
            The way Miller peppers dialogue feels much more alive, like how the Margaret page talks about her legs feeling pain and how the train makes it worse, or how she begs for a paint set like a wino. It makes the scene feel all the more real, and the close up of her facejust builds up that humanity, the slight smile when she thinks about her son.

            The watchmen panel is very cold and disconnected- and sure you can argue that it's the point given who's narrating it, but the tragedy and emotion relies on given expectations. An old man dying alone thinking his son is long dead is sad as a given. But Jon's father and their relationship is so sparsely drawn that it's hard for me to feel any real reaction to it. We just know Jon's dad pushed him away from watchmaking to try and better him. But Jon's own feelings are barely explored, his connection with his father is barely there as an adult, all that's left is the dramatic irony that Jon did go on to bigger things and his father will never know.

            • 3 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              I disagree. The Miller page has so much writing telling you: "feel bad about this person". Of course, he needs to paint an entire picture because it's a character that exists only on this one page, but it still comes off as a little manipulative with every additional detail. It is a great page, however.
              With the Watchmen panel, there's so much there. Mr. Osterman's anguished expression being barely readable, along with his writhing, the intravenous and contents of the nightstand spilling onto the floor, the light and the nurse's shadow spilling into the dark room. The image alone is sad. His existence from the moment of hearing of Jon's death to his own death was pain, and it's summed up in this panel. You don't need any more than this and his introduction. In one interpretation, the coldness of Jon's words betray a certain resentment, given his curse.
              Watchmen is full of such moments, a lot of them with Rorschach.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                We'll simply agree to disagree, I don't think the writing is only telling you to feel bad about this person, it's meant to give detail to this character to build her up so you understand her strength and why this moment breaks her emotionally and ultimately physically. The art feels more real, not just as the quality of the drawing but the emotion of it.
                The watchmen page requires you to make the assumption that the old man is lonely and depressed because of what we already has preconceived notions of- parents don't want to outlive their children, children are usually imagined to be their when their parents die for them to have a peaceful death, etc. That's my problem with a lot of watchmen, the characters feel like archetypes we're expected to have feelings for based on what we already know about such characters.
                The most effective moment in watchmen I'd say is where Rorscach sees himself in his landlord's son begging him not to hurt his mother.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >We'll simply agree to disagree
                Alright.
                We actually agree on the Dark Knight Returns page, as I'm well aware of commentary and characterization that the narration gives, except for the "feeling more real" aspect. As I said before, it's a more involved exercise in manipulation.
                As for the Watchmen panel, it tells you everything in the narration and Osterman's expression. It's almost all there, except for the prior introduction. Still, Moore's careful wording and Gibbons' terrific art make it a lot more than a story comprised of archetypes. It's a very human superhero story, and I find TDKR is more mythic/operatic.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                I would honestly even disagree on DK being more mythic/operatic and Watchmen more human, ,even though I'd agree that it's what the creators set out to do respectively. Watchmen feels like a very well choreographed production, DK shoots more from the hip and has more moments that feel visceral and human.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Best comic ever. Now stop making these stupid threads.

      Watchmen sucks.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Watchmen is better.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          NTA but Watchmen isn't even Moore's best work (or even cape work). Hell, League of Extraordinary Gentlemen alone is more underrated.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Even if you're right (you're not), what does that have to do with what I wrote?
            Watchmen is better than The Dark Knight Returns.

            • 3 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              Watchmen isn't even better than his Swamp Thing run.

              • 3 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                A lot of his comics are great, so it's pretty easy to justify one over another.
                I still pick Watchmen over his other works.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          You have shit taste.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Nope.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Watchmen has a more interesting story, Dark Knight Returns has more interesting storytelling.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      It's still crazy to me that these both came out in the same year. What a time to hit up your LCS every week and be met with these, must have been incredible.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Shouldn't you be giving your thoughts on the story considering you just finished it?
      Personally I think it's a pretty good story. Bit scuffed at times and definitely feels like it could of used another issue or two to pace things out. But despite that it feels like a good endpoint of sorts for Batman, now if only the sequel series were better...

      Very different types of stories so it's somewhat hard to compare the two. Still I'll say Dark Knight because the characterization and especially heroics of the stories Heros were anemic at times. Like I get that it's not a novel length story or building off an established universe but besides Rorschach and Ozymandias everyone feels a bit like a cardboard cutout. Mind you Carrie from DKR suffers from a far worse case of this but she's an accessory meant to build o=up Bats not to stand on her own.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >everyone feels a bit like a cardboard cutout
        I didn't get that at all, certainly not with any of the main characters.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Both comics have majority white street criminals so the immersion is ruined either way

  4. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous
    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      I've always read it as the left.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Obviously left makes more sense as right has too many broken body parts.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      ORA ORA ORA

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Which one is actually goes hard?

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Both.

  5. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    I didn't care for it

  6. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Is there anything you need to read before it or can it be read on its own?

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Pure kino.

      If you didn't read Batman as a kid, don't bother, it's not for you.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      On its own, though as

      It’s the best Batman comic, and you really appreciate it more when you read more of his comics. It’s strange, because it’s an entry-level comic everyone is expected to read, but if you (like I have) decide to undertake a complete understanding of Batman, reading comics from all his eras and learning his history, this comic only gets better. Typically entry-level stuff just gets forgotten once you get to the good stuff. I need to reread it again, it blew me away the last time I read it

      said you get more out of it having some Batman background.

  7. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    It was fine, should I go for the revival?

  8. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    If you just finished it, how about you tell us what you think of it.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      I thought it was good. I really liked the artstyle. Batman's design in this is especially good looking. I liked the scene with the woman who got blown up on the train. I liked the scene with superman being healed by the sun after getting blasted by the warhead. I liked batman and the sons taking over gotham after the outages. I liked the reasoning behind superman being sent after batman by the government is that he undermined their authority after he successfully kept gotham under control while every other city was thrown into chaos. Good comic, a lot to like about it.

  9. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    this and year one are the best batman comics by a wide mile. i hold them side by side.

    it was disappointing that everything ive read since hasn't been as good.

  10. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Better than Year One.
    Worse than Killing Joke.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      killing joke is the most overrated comic on earth

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      The Dark Knight Returns is better than The Killing Joke.

  11. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Depends of you're an American, or European and what your age range is.
    If you're an American teen in the 1980s, you'd think that this is the best thing ever.
    If you're European, you'd shake your head, laugh and once again think how America's pop entertainment exposes them for the silly violence loving morons that they are. Then you'd go back to reading your BDs.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      I'm European and I disagree thoroughly. I think you're a Moore fanboy who might be substituting his opinions with your own. Or maybe they coincide. But I don't subscribe to that school of thought.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Moore thought The Dark Knight Returns was the bee's knees.
        >In his engrossing story of a great man's final and greatest battle, Miller has managed to create something radiant which should hopefully illuminate things for the rest of the comic book field, casting a new light upon the problems which face all of us working within the industry and perhaps even guiding us towards some fresh solutions. For those of you who've already eagerly consumed Dark Knight in its softcover version, rest assured that in your hands you hold one of the few genuine comic book landmarks worthy of a lavish and more durable presentation. For the rest of you, who are about to enter entirely new territory, I can only express my extreme envy. You are about to encounter a new level of comic book storytelling. A new world with new pleasures and new pains.
        >A new hero.

        >Alan Moore
        >Northampton, 1986

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Yeah but your commentary on violence while typically European (and part of the reason why we're often perceived as blasé cum-guzzling homosexuals) seemed more in like with Moore than Miller and they are the main authors discussed itt.
          It's nice to see that he wasn't quick to judge the work on a superficial level but I still disagree with him on a number of things. Imo, he's best when he's being creative instead of doing political commentary.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            That wasn't me. I just interjected with the Moore quote.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        your comment shows just how prejudice you're and how little you understood of what I said. I don't like Moore's writing either. It's too structured, small blocks he forced together to make a story. The British comic scene isn't "European". it's a thing of it's own.
        There is a new Schuiten book The return of Captain Nemo i'll be reading. That's what I read.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >too dumb for Miller
          >too dumb for Moore
          At least Schuiten produces some beautiful pictures you can stare at.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      this has to be someone larping as a stereotypical snooty Euro.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Yep.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous
    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Shove your stupid larp up your ass.
      As an European that has been reading mostly Asterix, Tintin and Donald Duck, I think TDKR is an amazing comic book and not just for the standards of capeshit (which I more often than not cannot stomach at all).

      >Batman getting gunned down by the cops in crime Alley at the very spot his parents died would have been a pretty interesting ending.
      It's very interesting to think how much would the story and its influence change (maybe the dark age would've gotten much worse and hacks would be racing each other to kill off all popular heroes), but for me, I really like the optimistic, human ending we got that celebrates life and its energy instead of ending it all with a depressing murder.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >As an European that has been reading mostly Asterix, Tintin and Donald Duck
        do Europeans under 25 actually read those regularly or is it all just aging boomers?

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Regularly? I think nobody reads comic books regularly here, but still, I'd say they're not as popular now as they were in the past.
          I haven't seen Donald Duck magazines in years but it's easy to find Tintin and Asterix in book stores.
          Another thing, manga got more popular. It replaced most of the American superhero comic books in bookstores in my city. I remember 10 or so years ago it was common to see whole shelves full of TPB's in big bookstores in my city, and now I see only a handful of them and those shelves are full of manga now. I even saw teenagers reading manga in public multiple times.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >Another thing, manga got more popular. I

            France is actually the second largest manga market in the world after Japan.

            • 3 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              Yes, I know that, but I'm not French. I'm from eastern EU and manga was a virtually non-existent thing here when I was a kid/teenager but now it's clearly booming in popularity.

  12. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    You come on here ask the same stupid ass question all the time.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Go back to your cartoon threads.

  13. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >During the MCM London Comic Con 2018, Miller revealed that in his original plans for the ending of The Dark Knight Returns, Batman was going to be gunned down by the police while fighting them, but the story got away from him and changed his mind.
    Batman getting gunned down by the cops in Crime Alley at the very spot his parents died would have been a pretty interesting ending.
    I don't know if the story would now be considered as iconic as it is now. It definitely would have been controversial back in the day though. Especially with the mainstream press.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      I know this is a loaded statement so take it with a grain of salt, but John Byrne claims that when the watchmen pages got to DC in 1986, it made a lot of creators want to tr their hand at similar storytelling. Miller was halfway through DK and took a hiatus to rework the story, which is why issue 3 comes out months after 2- Watchmen influenced him to add an escalating, political angle to the story.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Paul Levitz pretty much says as much here as well.
        >"Most of the guys in comics live within about 50 miles of here, so we were all at the same poker games and parties. And it was just "Wow! How the hell did he do that?" and you went home and ripped up what ever you had done that week and said "No, damn it, there is more I can do""

        ?t=3948

  14. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    I think the first two chapters are genuine peak and I don’t think there’s many other Batman stories that could even conceive of approaching them. The last two chapters didn’t resonate with me as much, but they’re still a great read and far from disappointing (just not as good).

  15. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    I feel lot people don't get it, people are like IT MAKES BATMAN GRIM AND GRITTY AND HE DARK AND INSANE no if you read actual book the setting is dark grim and gritty, Batman is classic sliver age Batman in this 80's world, he still has same personality, the same morals and everything, he just more broken down as person due to years of fighting crime and he more violent because of the new world he in. Later Miller work changed Batman personality but this book Batman is very much classic Batman you could read the lines in Adam West voice and fits perfectly.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Still criminal that Adam West didn’t do an audiobook recording of the whole book before he passed, that one passage he did was too good.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Miller made DKR specifically because he hates how fruity and gay that gay Adam West made batman look

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >Miller made DKR specifically because he hates how fruity and gay that gay Adam West made batman look
        He wanted Batman to go back to his early dark roots but he clearly likes the Sliver Age personality of Batman which DKR Batman has in the book, Miller clearly never hated Adam West take, he just didn't like that wasn't as serious as he saw it as a child so he made it dark epic.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          DKR Batman is a schizo who talks to himself and considers Batman to be a demon possessing his soul, hates Superman for not having to struggle like he does, and takes pleasure in hurting his victims as much as possible. The only thing "Silver Age" about his personality is that he wears a spandex cowl

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        That doesn't really add up. By the time Miller came onto Batman the character was almost a decade into his "return to roots" led by Denny O'Neil and others in the late 60s/early 70s. It had been years since goofy Silver Age Batman was a thing in the comics.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >Miller made DKR specifically because he hates how fruity and gay that gay Adam West made batman look
        He wanted Batman to go back to his early dark roots but he clearly likes the Sliver Age personality of Batman which DKR Batman has in the book, Miller clearly never hated Adam West take, he just didn't like that wasn't as serious as he saw it as a child so he made it dark epic.

        DKR Batman is Dick Sprang's Batman.
        The 66 show was a parody, but West's Batman was modeled after the Batman comics of the time- and the way kids saw it the show was meant to be taken straight. even west's whole approach was that Batman take these ridiculous situations seriously.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Exactly. People sometimes take TDKR as the future of Year One, but it's the opposite. TDKR is the ultimate end of Pre-Crisis Batman and Year One is the new beginning. TDKR is classic Batman heightened to the ultimate operatic extreme.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >Exactly. People sometimes take TDKR as the future of Year One
        People probably think that because Miller says Year One and TDKR are the same person.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >TDKR as the future of Year One, but it's the opposite. TDKR is the ultimate end of Pre-Crisis Batman and Year One is the new beginning.
        Year One was made out of notes and ideas for DK, I think Miller intends for them to be the same character. Year One doesn't match up with Batman's pre-crisis history, to which Miller would probably just shrug and tell you "It's all imaginary, kid".
        (funny story, Bruce Timm mentioned once that Miller playing loose with Daredevil's history did bug him when he read Daredevil- he loved Wally Wood's DD run as a kid and was annoyed that Miller showed Matt in college in the 60's, because it didn't make any sense- but he learned to accept it.)

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          One book that I really enjoyed was The Untold Legend of The Dark Knight, it’s a collection of a bunch of origins for Batman and his allies, all retold for the book, to give his definitive origin. The last book on Batman’s origin before the Crisis and Year One. Reading it alongside Year One and DKR show you what Frank Miller did to create these characters. A lot of stuff we take for granted as Batman lore was actually introduced in DKR and later canonized by either Year One or other post-crisis comics.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          The bigger issue is that in the Man Without Fear prequel, Miller introduces Kingpin as taking over the control of the mob before Matt even wore the yellow suit. But Miller's own run was the first time Daredevil met Fisk, and that was in Daredevil #171, so quite a while from his beginnings. It makes it kinda implausible in hindsight that Matt just didn't run into the biggest NYC crime lord for such a long time, especially since he dealt with a lot of other crime lords before Kingpin was even created.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Whenever Miller comes back to something that already had closure, it's always a bad idea.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >It makes it kinda implausible in hindsight that Matt just didn't run into the biggest NYC crime lord for such a long time, especially since he dealt with a lot of other crime lords before Kingpin was even created.

            Is it so implausible? You can No Prize it as Matt starts out dealing with the low-level nobodies and only slowly works his way up to even knowing about the heavy hitters, most of all the Kingpin.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >Exactly. People sometimes take TDKR as the future of Year One
        People probably think that because Miller says Year One and TDKR are the same person.

        Part of me feels like Miller doens't actually give a shit about continuity, but saying it's all one canon makes it easier to deal with nerds asking questions about why Batman does this when in issue who-gives-a-frick he says that.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Miller basically works backwards
          >TDKR has Selina Kyle running an escort service, so in Year One he makes her a prostitute
          >In TDKR, Gordon has a wife named Sarah. In Year One, he introduces her.
          >In The Dark Knight Strikes Again, Dick Grayson hates Batman. So All-Star Batman and Robin has Batman acting like a psychopath and forcing Dick Grayson to eat rats.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >TDKR as the future of Year One, but it's the opposite. TDKR is the ultimate end of Pre-Crisis Batman and Year One is the new beginning.
        Year One was made out of notes and ideas for DK, I think Miller intends for them to be the same character. Year One doesn't match up with Batman's pre-crisis history, to which Miller would probably just shrug and tell you "It's all imaginary, kid".
        (funny story, Bruce Timm mentioned once that Miller playing loose with Daredevil's history did bug him when he read Daredevil- he loved Wally Wood's DD run as a kid and was annoyed that Miller showed Matt in college in the 60's, because it didn't make any sense- but he learned to accept it.)

        Year One and TDKR are both canon to what is known as the Millerverse which is a separate timeline where all of his works exist. So yes TDKR batman is the same one from Year One, though Year One is also canon to the mainline universe so it sometimes gets confusing.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        It's a cope because they're the two best stories on that character, and people naturally want continuity.

  16. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Pretty good, Mutant leader dude had the best nipples in the game

  17. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Is Frank a fortune teller by any chance?

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      schizos have acted the same way they have always acted. their words are the only thing that change.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      He also predicted 9/11.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      He nailed Dr Fauci with Wolper

  18. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    You think Carrie's friends think she's whoring herself out? Like her one friend sees her get into a limousine and without the context of her being robin it's kinda "odd".

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Everyone in Carrie's life is too simplebrained to even care. She's only 16 in DKSA and it's implied she's living with Bruce and the gang full time. Her parents didn't even notice in all likelihood.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Her parents are the permastoned hippies taken from Repo Man

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >We're sending bibles to El Salvador.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        I mean her parents were washed up druggies. For all we know they over dosed off screen.
        Her friend though, that one female one she's saw batman with that one time, there's no evidence that she's that dumb though that's kinda the nature of how short TDKR really is.

  19. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >You were the one they used against us, Bruce. The one who played it rough. When the noise started from the parents’ groups and the sub-committee called us in for questioning, you were the one who laughed – that scary laugh of yours – ‘Sure we’re criminals,' you said. 'We’ve always been criminals. We have to be criminals.’

  20. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    this comic alone cursed the entire DCEU and alienated a generation of morons into thinking what makes superman and batman

    I love it

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      It also blessed all of the best Batman movies and made it possible for the DCAU to exist.

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >made it possible for the DCAU to exist.

        How so? The DCAU exists because of BTAS and BTAS exists because 1989 was such a monster hit. If you mean it has Superman and Batman interacting, that was happening for decades before TDKR.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          1989 got was greenlit because of the attention TDKR and The Killing Joke got.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Huh, just looked it up and you're right. Didn't know that, that's pretty neat.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >got was
            ulp

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          DKR was one of the books that convinced studios to shift gears on the initial idea of making the Batman movie more of a comedy or farce in the style of the '66 show. The whole push to make a Batman movie initially comes from the somewhat forgotten push to make 50's/60's TV shows into movies- Dragnet, Untouchables, etc. It was through this that some producers that were comic fans pushed for an adaptation of the comics instead. And the way they did this was using examples of what could be used.
          As comic fans it's sometimes easy to miss the forest for the trees- we can say O'Neil, Wein, and Englehart and others tooksteps to make more mature Batman stories, but hand out Five Way Revenge or Joker Fish to any studio execs and they'd probably still see it as kitsch- with the melodramatic writing styles and bright coloring that still calls to mind pop art. Miller's more terse writing and art style really felt different and emphasized the darker tone of the story. Ironically the final 89 movie is probably goofier and more campy the DKR-but the atmosphere made an impression.
          It got the ball rolling on a lot of Batman afterwords, both comics and media.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >As comic fans it's sometimes easy to miss the forest for the trees- we can say O'Neil, Wein, and Englehart and others tooksteps to make more mature Batman stories, but hand out Five Way Revenge or Joker Fish to any studio execs and they'd probably still see it as kitsch- with the melodramatic writing styles and bright coloring that still calls to mind pop art. Miller's more terse writing and art style really felt different and emphasized the darker tone of the story. Ironically the final 89 movie is probably goofier and more campy the DKR-but the atmosphere made an impression.

            That's something else to keep in mind--prior to DKR and Burton, the Batman movie project was taking influence from the Englehart/Rogers run; you can see it in the early 80s Tom Mankiewicz script that kept getting passed around--Rupert Thorne, Silver St Cloud were in it. But the people online who never read the run, their mind immediately went to the Adam West show, because they kept thinking it's a strange attempt to be serious while also being ridiculous (ie the part where Batman uses a slingshots a giant thumbtack to kill Rupert Thorne)

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Part of the reason Burton came on board was that they let him look into DKR and Killing Joke; he wasn't a big comic fan otherwise but he liked the books' tone and did praise Killing Joke.

          Prior to DKR there were a lot of starts and stops to getting a Batman film made; the basis for most of these projects was the Englehart/Rogers Detective Comics run but some people were also still taking some influence from the 60s show. At one point Ivan Retiman was going to direct with Bill Murray as Batman, but that fell through.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >Bill Murray as Batman

            hilariously terrible choice

            >Bill Murray
            They didn't give a frick, did they?

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >this comic alone cursed the entire DCEU and alienated a generation of morons into thinking what makes superman and batman

      The problem is that they don't understand TDKR because of the context. In 1986 you had 50 years of Batman and Superman as The Word's Finest Super Friends. Sure they had had arguments now and then, but it was genuinely shocking and impactful to see them brutally throwing down in the street. It actually meant something. Subsequent depictions lack that and are just "who would win" moronation.

  21. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    MUCH better than this ugly crap

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Why is it when someone criticizes a well-liked comic on Cinemaphile, they always post the smallest panels?

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      for me it's Year 100
      grotesque kino

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Pretty cool.

  22. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    What did you think?

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      It was cool. I really liked it. Reading year one now.

  23. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    I didn't like it.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Boring. Your read it once and you're good.

      ASBAR however is kino. You can read that multiple times and be entertained every time.

      Don't like it. Bruce is an butthole.

      samegay

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Why not?

  24. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Boring. Your read it once and you're good.

    ASBAR however is kino. You can read that multiple times and be entertained every time.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      disagree on TDKR but yeah ASBAR is great and I wish it got a continuation

  25. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Don't like it. Bruce is an butthole.

  26. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    I never read it, so i don't know OP senpai.

  27. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Gotta say this thread is pretty nice for Cinemaphile. People actually making coherent points and even when they disagree they explain why without the usual autistic screeching and trolling.

  28. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >Bill Murray as Batman

    hilariously terrible choice

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Even for a comedy movie it doesn't work. What makes the West show work is that West is actually a handsome, charismatic actor, so seeing him play against type is fun. Like Leslie Nielsen.
      6'2'', lantern jawed with nice hair and piercing eyes, he honestly mogs pretty every other actor to play the role in terms of coming off as handsome old money. Had they chosen to play the show as more of an adventure drama he would've nailed it too.

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