>makes one of the best and most influential cartoons ever
>produces exclusively dogshit otherwise
i understand Ren and Stimpy was lightning in a bottle, but does anyone else find it baffling that the studio responsible for such a memorable, groundbreaking and expertly crafted animated series was not capable of producing even one other remotely entertaining product in its entire history?
The Ripping Friends was good.
What was Spumco even doing in the near decade between Ren and Stimpy and the Ripping Friends?
He was dabbling with early webtoons (iirc 1997) like The Goddamn George Liquor program, and occasionally doing commercials and music videos (Old Navy, Bjork, later Weird Al).
no it wasn't
>makes one of the best and most influential cartoons ever
[Citation needed]
i dont even fuck with ren and stimpy but it. is the type of cartoon that changed the game which lead to shows like rocko , spongebob and Cartoon Network’s golden age possibly adult swim too
Ren and Stimpy was good IN SPITE OF Jon K. Therefore it makes sense anything else he touches turns to shit. That includes the children he touched too.
This. No better proof of this than the shitshow APC turned out to be.
Good or bad, people are still talking about APC 20 years later. Meanwhile, the Games Animation episodes are mostly forgotten.
>Meanwhile, the Games Animation episodes are mostly forgotten.
Now this is real Revisionist bullshit. And if people are still talking about APC, which is extremely rare outside of this board, it’s usually about how shitty it was.
>people are still talking about APC 20 years later.
same way people will talk about 9/11, great recession and probably covid. its not good
Meanwhile, there’s nothing to talk about in most Games eps, since they’re mediocre as fuck.
R&S went down the shitter when he left - Jon has talent, but he needs people to tardwrangle him.
This. Season 3-5 the animation quality went down after Games Animation took over.
You're brainwashed by animation industry culture not to like anything associated with John K besides Ren and Stimpy (including the games crap) because they still exploit that show, especially things like the recently concluded Ghost and Molly McGee.
Quit pretending like your feelings about artwork and aesthetic sense can't change
The most glaring aspect is them demanding people not to follow John's philosophy, even though his philosophy is the basis of Ren and Stimpy. You can't have one without the other, only mental illness
>Talking about "children turning to shit"
A good example of mental illness
And the demand for non-creatives to control the content of creatives. Is another John thread all wrapped up to drop off page 10?
good bait
No, the desired result is for shills to give up on their tortured rationalizations about John K while their industry crumbles because they didn't listen to his philosophy. That blessed day when they realize nobody gives a crap about the gripes of Los Angeles besides people in Los Angeles
>give up on their tortured rationalizations about John K
what the fuck are you talking about bro lmao I'm not even talking about John K
The issue isn't John K refusing to have model sheets and to try and make every frame unique, the issue is that he's got an enormous ego that led him to being incredibly hard to work with. His process works if a team has the budget, the time and the effort but who fucking cares when the man behind it is miserable to deal with?
His quality objectively dropped because when he had 100% full creative control there was no filter for his bad ideas and this of course reached its apex with Cans without Labels which was a bad idea from fucking conception. The man had vision, but not every vision was good and without someone to tell him it was a stupid idea and not to do it he ended up demolishing his legacy. His biggest hit Ren and Stimpy is now only associated with him to establish how huge of a prick he was and when he was able to get his fans to allow him to make a project with no restraints he makes one of the worst animated projects in the last decade. Regardless of the shit I KNOW you're referring to, John K's story ends the same way: Blacklisted and living in infamy as a fallen titan of animation.
Everyone says this as an unproven slur against a creator. Guess what gay, the pyramids were built by slaves (or at least complained they were), you're not dispensing some timeless wisdom by complaining about leadership. John cracked a whip and we got a timeless classic. If you want shows staffed entirely by sissies who never step on toes, there's plenty of modern slop to enjoy.
Hear me out anon, maybe, just maybe instead of working your team like literal slaves seeing as that's the comparison you wanna run with, he could've put his foot down more with Nick instead of his own team? It's funny, we never hear stories about how anyone else from the animated golden age were so horrid to work with that the second they were booted the remaining staff literally changed an episode to be a gigantic dig at him and yet certainly there were plenty of timeless classics made around the same time.
Maybe it's almost as though you can be bold enough to not let a company mandate shackle you while also treating your fellow animators like a team instead of a plantation. But of course such a mindset is too bold, too dynamic, too absurd to even imagine.
>don't be demanding of co-workers
>be demanding of the company that hired you
He kept asking for more time from Nick, what the fuck are you on about?
Nearly every post containing the phrase "it's almost as if" is worthless.
People are already complaining about being mistreated by the makers of Spider-Verse and everybody sucks that movie’s dick.
This is all very Longhouse (look it up if necessary, I know you folks stay isolated from the outside world)
You're just trying to express your desire for social control with more words. You can vomit out this groomy nonsense, but guess what, you can't actually get people to care about the cartoons LA is putting out. There are far more people celebrating the death of Industry animation then people who actually care about it
>Disassociating evasion
You just demonstrated that you recognize you lost
>already immensely talented artists
No, he trained people like Bruce Timm. People don't have magical drawing skill.
And where are these talented artists these days?
As if the Games crew weren't assholes. They made cartoons so vile they were child abuse for the audience. Their judgment is worth Jack squat.
I also expect all this nonsense about "abusing his coworkers" comes in part from people misinterpreting my teenage comments as him driving people to work harder anonymously.
>Disassociating evasion
You're the one who claimed I'm "brainwashed" not to like John K because of animation industry culture, whatever that is. All I said is that it's weird that Spumco didn't produce anything noteworthy before or after R&S. I'm aware it's almost impossible to talk about Spumco without talking about John K and his creation, and that was my whole point. It's strange how little impact everything else Spumco has produced has had when compared to its one project that was one of the most influential creations in media ever. That's all I'm saying.
>Blacklisted and living in infamy as a fallen titan of animation.
bruh you act like being blacklisted from the industry is bad, have you been asleep for the past decade?
This is the same revisionist retardation that says the new R&M season will be good because the creator is gone. Pure contrarian gayry.
R&M's downhill slope has been almost exclusively BECAUSE Roiland hadn't been as involved with later seasons as Harmon took the wheel and brought on fifty different fucking writers so I don't know who the fuck's saying that.
Plenty of contrarians like to say that, slinging around "sex pest" like this year's "incel" insult.
If women didn't want to be around him they could have quit but they'd rather keep their cushy writing job and shit on any man above them.
>If women didn't want to be around him
it didn't take many months working with him to find out what sort of person he was, ya know.
Lots of men don't speak highly of him because he could treat them like dudes who could take the abuse. With women, I bet he'd not be as violently angry with them. Just watch his interviews where he's with women and how they have the laugh off his comments.
That's just in regards to John. Roiland I bet he's got that problem of being annoyed when women don't laugh at him, and will clearly play favorites to any girl who he can make rofl.
>how they have the laugh off his comments.
Retractive interpretations of a deranged careerist whose mind is conformed to the corporate environment. They were his friends. But, women aren't fans of bad social situations for remaining friends with someone
These anons
speak the truth.
Feels like one of those things where both had to be together to produce good stuff and things fell apart when they split up.
R and S isnt made by one person
just like Bruce timm/paul dini cant make something as great as BTAS/JLU anymore
Ren and Stimpy was the right combination of Nick allowing John K some creative control with the right people (Bob Camp) while putting down his shit ones.
Once that two season golden age stopped, everyone afterwards was either sort of decent (Games Animation) to fascinatingly bad (APC)
It's okay to be a one-hit wonder. I think the Tarantino's and Scorsese's of the world gave people this expectation that you need to make masterpiece after masterpiece. It's even okay to burn out as you age like Spielberg or Tim Burton. John K was a case where he was able to bring out the best of already immensely talented artists. When he's given a team of amateurs or has to do 90% of the work himself, it's not good. Being a tough coach is nothing to scoff at.
The world also does not forgive any single mistake. You might have a lot of successes under your belt but the second you make a mistake, you become a hackfraud and nothing you ever did was good because of you in spite of role or responsibility
This makes me feel like never creating anything
Honestly, it's also why I'm so scared to put myself out there.
I've drawn some art and done some YT vids but shit I've seen happen to big creators gives me anxiety
I think it's actually nice to make art you enjoy while not really getting that famous from it. You can improve and even make worse stuff without thousands of people shitting on you for it
You're not wrong. I can jump back and forth from SFW to NSFW without bieing shat on by uptight american teenagers.
because everything else he wanted to make was about naked teenage girls and daddy abuse.
Never watched the show.
Don't know the drama behind it.
Should I watch it all or only the seasons that were on before the creator was kicked out?
All, the Games Animation seasons have gems on it too.
Just watch it from the beginning and decide for yourself whether the quality drops off. People are split on it. I personally think it loses a lot of charm after the Spumco seasons but there are still some decent episodes from later seasons.
one of the best and most influential cartoons ever
>has crazy daddy issues
>exclusively dates girls 15+ years young than him
best shit comes from someone just a little insane.
As bad as John K is, he isn't nearly as bad as Don Schneider.
you mean Dan "make her an offer she can't refuse" Schneider?
John K helped pushed the boundaries in western animation to appeal to more adult audience. Because of him & Ralph Bakshi, animation blocks like Adult Swim exist. Thanks to R&S, it inspired a ton of gross-out & edgy humor. I was in 1st grade when I saw it on Nick & I specifically remembered my peers not liking it. It was however very popular amongst teenagers, college kids, & even adults during the 90s. He also made the first flash animation before YouTube was a thing.
Ren & Stimpy was in the wrong network. They should’ve aired it on MTV or Comedy Central so Spumco wouldn’t have to deal with censors as much.
Some of the commercials were nice, as well as the cute girls (not the bimbos though)
Is Ren and Stimpy even good? What's supposed to be so special and groundbreaking about it? The entire thing aired before I was born so I haven't seen it, but watching S1 of Bakshi's Mighty Mouse I get the impression John K isn't very good, though I like his art.
if you've seen Spongebob you've seen at least one thing Ren and Stimpy had a direct influence on. The show sparked a sort of revolution in the TV animation industry which up to that point was largely creatively bankrupt and was mainly focused on producing whatever they could sell toys or action figures of. R&S just sort of broke all the rules about how bland, inoffensive and unoriginal cartoons on TV were expected to be at the time. It based its format Looney Tunes but renewed it with an extremely expressive, cynical and psychotic attitude that, at the time, countless other cartoons started trying to imitate. It really was a game changer.
>if you've seen Spongebob you've seen at least one thing Ren and Stimpy had a direct influence on.
Seriously? In terms of style, form, humor, or what? I thought Rocko's Modern Life was the biggest influence on SpongeBob.
>The show sparked a sort of revolution in the TV animation industry which up to that point was largely creatively bankrupt and was mainly focused on producing whatever they could sell toys or action figures of.
I see it came out in 91 so that makes sense, yeah. Would you say its worth watching?
>I thought Rocko's Modern Life was the biggest influence on SpongeBob.
Exactly right, since a great deal of Rocko cast and crew later worked on SpongeBob, including creator Stephen Hillenburg.
Then when the series resumed production after the first movie, Vincent Waller came on board with a few of his APC colleagues and started to turn SpongeBob into a fourth-rate gross out cartoon.
All of a sudden you got hit with shit like Plankton skinning himself alive, Spongebob slurping down live worms and fucking a moldy krabby patty. Not to mention that godawful Face Freeze episode.
>Vincent Waller came on board with a few of his APC colleagues and started to turn SpongeBob into a fourth-rate gross out cartoon.
oh. that explains so much.
>when Ren and Stimpy's creator was fired
So John K got fired from Ren and Stimpy in the middle of production? And, sure, I'll bother to check it out.
>So John K got fired from Ren and Stimpy in the middle of production?
yep. right in the middle of the second season. John actually talks about it with some of the other Spumco artists in the DVD commentary of the season 2 episode "Sven Hoek", an episode that was mid-production during the firing, which is pretty funny to listen to if you can find it. There was also a documentary a few years ago called Happy Happy Joy Joy which chronicles the whole disastrous situation if you're interested in that. The show's troubled history is really as fascinating as the show itself.
>Happy Happy Joy Joy
Maybe I'll watch that first and then check the series out. Or maybe I'll watch a few episodes and then watch that. Does it make a difference?
I recommend reading the book on Ren and Stimpy first. Sick Little Monkeys. Goes into great detail of the history of the show and its impact on tv animation.
Anna’s Archives should have a free pdf of it.
I'm not doing that.
Your loss, anon, it’s a great read.
besides the documentary completely skips over the Games era and chopped out several interviews with important players in the original series
I will, it sounds interesting. Thanks,
.
nah, I don't think it makes a difference. it's not like the show has some in depth story that the documentary is gonna spoil. Maybe it will give you an idea of whether it's the kind of show you'll enjoy or not. It's a fascinating watch either way.
>Maybe it will give you an idea of whether it's the kind of show you'll enjoy or not.
I'm positive I won't like the show but I'll still probably give it a chance. Maybe I should do a few episodes first.
Anon I'm not gonna read an entire book about the history of a cartoon I know nothing about just to pre-empt watching the show or a documentary about the show. I don't care about Ren and Stimpy as of yet. I haven't seen a single second of it. Plus I have other shit I'm doing. If I'm curious later down the line I'll check it out.
Well as long you give it some thought.
>I thought Rocko's Modern Life was the biggest influence on SpongeBob.
you could say that, but Rocko was produced by the studio that was made specifically to replace Spumco when Ren and Stimpy's creator was fired, and had many of the same artists on staff. Vincent Waller, one of R&S/Spumco's original artists, also works on Spongebob to this day
It's definitely worth watching. One warning is that it's pretty heavy on gross out humor which may or may not bother you. But you still need to watch it to see some of the funniest and most expressive acting ever seen in animation, and a likely source of inspiration for some of the cartoons you grew up with. I enjoy it to this day and I really don't watch cartoons from my childhood anymore.
Gross-out humor pre-dates the 90s. There are plenty of 80s cartoons with gross-out. What made R&S different from them is that R&S was willing to be shocking & disturbing with the gross-out.
That comment doesn't say gross out, you're just forcing your straw man
"Retarded executives made the show good" quit coming here to "develop" your animation career
What exactly are you comparing mighty Mouse to? Other '80s cartoons were almost always devoid of creativity and skill
You didn't say you actually liked Games
Thousands of artists working learned heavily from John's blog, including ones who talk about hating him. If you can't acknowledge things like that you're not talking, you're propagandizing to support the industry.
"Noteworthy" people talk more about APC than all but the top new industry shows while they're currently releasing.
He-Man was way better than Mighty Mouse you sperg
>Thousands of artists working learned heavily from John's blog, including ones who talk about hating him. If you can't acknowledge things like that
um ok. I don't know how I implied otherwise, but yes many artists who grew up on R&S learned directly from John's blog when he was posting regularly, including myself. Do you believe me now that I do not have a bone to pick with John K specifically? None of this changes the fact that every non R&S thing created by Spumco kind of sucks.
>There are plenty of 80s cartoons with gross-out.
ok well i guess the 13ep garbage pail kids is like your free bingo space...go on name some.
The original R&S was pure 90s kino because people at the top kept John K in check, & yeah it's a good show. Naked Beach Frenzy is the only reason to watch APC.
Yeah real genius that John
Nostalgia property =/= good cartooning, leave the discussion to the adults
>leave the discussion to the adults
Guy never misses when it comes to ironic and/or hypocritical statements
Didn't he try to push Wally Man of all things as the next big thing?
I would be honestly embarrassed to show most of these
I had no idea there were still JohnK sycophants, I figure even they would've gotten tired of his shit after Cans Without Labels
John K is still worshipped as a god by many pedophiles and people with low standards. Trying to talk sense into them is pointless and a waste of time.
It's honestly not surprising given the amount of time it took John K to actually make the cartoons. Perfectionism doesn't actually mean anything if the timeslot gets taken up. Shit or get off the pot.
>i understand Ren and Stimpy was lightning in a bottle
It was only "lightning in a bottle" in the sense that great creative minds got to wrangling John K for a bit, and created a great show out of it. We can have more great media under the same circumstances, but I think the talent that we have today are both lacking in artistic ability and are too focused on race and ideology to set their shit to the side and say "lets make a show that's offensive for the sake of comedy".
Alright, I'm on Episode 2. This does get good at some point, right? Right now its sort of unbearably unfunny. It is supposed to be funny, right?
>groundbreaking and expertly crafted
everything is that when your entire competence are toddler tier slice of life crap