Paul is the necessary evil. The Golden Path is ruthless, exacting, and paved not only with genocide but with with crimes against the very soul of humanity, yet it is all necessary for humanity's survival as an interstellar species. A tightrope where a moment of laxity will be falling into an endless abyss.
Paul faces an impossible choice, become the worst tyrant in all of human history or allow humanity to go extinct. His only fault, if you can call it one, is that he chooses indecision while his son Leto II will choose tyranny.
tldr; Read the actual books unless you are genuinely illiterate
Humanity needs a god daddy to shepherd us. Since we tried with AI and cast that off, we had to breed one of our own into the job. Thank goodness he wasnt raised by the bene gesserit school.
>Paul is the necessary evil. The Golden Path is ruthless, exacting, and paved not only with genocide but with with crimes against the very soul of humanity, yet it is all necessary for humanity's survival as an interstellar species. A tightrope where a moment of laxity will be falling into an endless abyss. > >Paul faces an impossible choice, become the worst tyrant in all of human history or allow humanity to go extinct. His only fault, if you can call it one, is that he chooses indecision while his son Leto II will choose tyranny. > >tldr; Read the actual books unless you are genuinely illiterate
this is the delusion of every genocidal tyrant in history ever. >I need to kill a hundred million people for the good of humanity. Source: trust me bro
This homie let the main plot point fly over his head because of muh magic space clairvoyance lmao and unironically thinks space stalin was in the right like a good sheeple OMEGALUL
He can actually see the future. In Messiah, he doesnt need physical eyes to know where hes going.
You are at the head of a crowd of blind men, and you are suddenly given sight. You see that all are slowly shuffling towards a cliff. You plead and beg to change their course. Some listen, some do not, some lash out in the direction of the offending words. You might have to break some noses before you have the crowd safely diverted from the cliff.
One problem with all of this. The no-chamber and no-ships, devices which could create an insulated bubble where those inside could hide from presence.
The exitance of the no-chambers and no-ships proves that presence isn't flawless, that factors and variable can be hidden, and thus visions of the future are imperfect.
Humanity needs a god daddy to shepherd us. Since we tried with AI and cast that off, we had to breed one of our own into the job. Thank goodness he wasnt raised by the bene gesserit school.
Frank Herbert was deeply suspicious of "Great Men" be they politicians or religious leaders. The Fremen under Paul and later Leto II commit atrocities in the name of the faith they put into them all the while the Frenmen themselves lose more and more of their identity as the centuries turn into millennia. The only thing that separates Paul and Leto II from Duke Harkonnen is that they see themselves as just as much cogs in the machine rather than the hand which turns it. They are less outwardly megalomaniacal but just as helpless.
Have you not read far enough ahead to get to where Leto II breeds a bloodline specifically invisible to prescience? Either Herbert had a change of heart, or it was his plan all along to subvert the prescient tyrant plotline. Ultimately it's up for interpretation what is good and what isn't, but the way I took it is that the entire point was to make humanity so sick of oppression under the prescient tyrant that they would decide to scatter. Leto knew this. The goal was to ensure survival of the species, this point is repeated a lot. So what Paul saw must have been the necessary steps to conquer the universe, subject it to tyranny, force mass eugenics, then force humanity to scatter and become invisible to prescience through the Atreides bloodline. It tracks. What Paul probably saw was a path that completely ended his prescient sight into humanity's future.
the difference between paul and genocidal tyrants is that he can literally see into the future and understand the costs and benefits of his actions. If you knew without a shadow of a doubt that your options were either complete human extinction, or survival on a path paved with blood (which is how humans became the apex creatures of earth in the first place granting you the ability to type on a computer and enjoy the conveniences of modern life) a vast majority would prefer the latter.
What would've wiped out humans had it not been the golden path? I know his son ended up saying it was the AI machines like terminator or Matrix but is that really what people think Frank intended? there never really was aliens in Dune
im just gonna repeat what the others said but Paul and his son have total prescience which means they can see that theres only one way to avoid human extinction, genocide and tyranny can be justified if theres absolutely no other way, we might be in this very same situation as a species currently
>just trust the great leader! He said le bad things will happen if he doesn't kill the entire country. How does he know? w-well he can see the future of course! he is a living god emperor!
dune is a warning against people like you who'll be the first to rat out your neighbors to be sent to the gulags.
the difference between paul and genocidal tyrants is that he can literally see into the future and understand the costs and benefits of his actions. If you knew without a shadow of a doubt that your options were either complete human extinction, or survival on a path paved with blood (which is how humans became the apex creatures of earth in the first place granting you the ability to type on a computer and enjoy the conveniences of modern life) a vast majority would prefer the latter.
What would've wiped out humans had it not been the golden path? I know his son ended up saying it was the AI machines like terminator or Matrix but is that really what people think Frank intended? there never really was aliens in Dune
im just gonna repeat what the others said but Paul and his son have total prescience which means they can see that theres only one way to avoid human extinction, genocide and tyranny can be justified if theres absolutely no other way, we might be in this very same situation as a species currently
>Paul is the necessary evil. The Golden Path is ruthless, exacting, and paved not only with genocide but with with crimes against the very soul of humanity, yet it is all necessary for humanity's survival as an interstellar species. A tightrope where a moment of laxity will be falling into an endless abyss. > >Paul faces an impossible choice, become the worst tyrant in all of human history or allow humanity to go extinct. His only fault, if you can call it one, is that he chooses indecision while his son Leto II will choose tyranny. > >tldr; Read the actual books unless you are genuinely illiterate
this is the delusion of every genocidal tyrant in history ever. >I need to kill a hundred million people for the good of humanity. Source: trust me bro
This homie let the main plot point fly over his head because of muh magic space clairvoyance lmao and unironically thinks space stalin was in the right like a good sheeple OMEGALUL
When we will have a Space Stalin that kills quatrillions because he wants instead of having the same moronic excuse of "le greater good", "le killing trillions for humanity's future"?
When??
They should have updated Dune for modern audiences and sensibilities, he looks into the future the audience sees trillions dieing it cuts back the Paul and all he says is "woah, based"
Paul is the necessary evil. The Golden Path is ruthless, exacting, and paved not only with genocide but with with crimes against the very soul of humanity, yet it is all necessary for humanity's survival as an interstellar species. A tightrope where a moment of laxity will be falling into an endless abyss.
Paul faces an impossible choice, become the worst tyrant in all of human history or allow humanity to go extinct. His only fault, if you can call it one, is that he chooses indecision while his son Leto II will choose tyranny.
tldr; Read the actual books unless you are genuinely illiterate
He's supposed to be, he's not once portrayed as a bad guy. Probably the most morally good guy in dune which is why he's conflicted over his destiny since his rise would give way for the jihad
The problem is there's no subtlety. It's like a Redditor frequently reminding you it's actually Frakenstein's Monster. Paul's self fulfilling prophecy is going to cause space muslims to go out and start holy wars across the galaxy, I get it. When you repeatedly tease it, it doesn't become a big surprise, or some deep intelligent thing that's behind the scenes. Paul immediately turns into a taliban leader at the end, and the brainlet audience pats themselves on the back and says OHHH I SAW THIS COMING, I'm smart and "media literate". Frick off
I would've let humanity go extinct and life to go on its way, leave the floor for other species to flourish, as intended. I don't understand this idiotic sentiment of defending humanity no matter what, especially if you throw morals down the cesspit anyway by becoming a bloodthirsty tyrant and indulge in genocides.
That's bullshit and doesn't even answer my question. There's no point in committing atrocities for millennia just so that humanity could persevere for a handful more but in a miserly state. It's like keeping a man on the verge of death comatose so that he could live as a vegetable and for you to give yourself a pat on the back telling yourself how good were you to doom him to an ignominious half life.
>That's bullshit
It's not, what are morals worth if everyone is dead? >There's no point in committing atrocities for millennia just so that humanity could persevere for a handful more but in a miserly state.
But it doesn't, it continues to thrive. More time alive means more time to improve.
we are arguing with a depressed, anti-natalist, moral purist brainlet who said "I would've let humanity go extinct" without a hint of self-awareness. there is no victory here.
>unironic anti-humanism
wow, amazing take. if cracking a few eggs to make an omelet is so bad, why are you even alive? your own existence is predicated on thousands of years of suffering and the products you consume are made in sweatshops. the fact that you are living and consuming directly necessitates the suffering of others whom you will never meet. why don't you just fricking have a nice day then?
brainlet homosexual
You're a fricking idiot, i'm talking about postponing the inevitable extinction of humanity here.
Bu the way, our species is a cancer and i cannot wait for our collective stupidity to excise ourselves from this marred planet. As you said, crack a few eggs to make an omelette.
>our species is a cancer and i cannot wait for our collective stupidity to excise ourselves
have a nice day anti-human, anti-natalist frick. no one will miss you.
Neither will you, because you're a drone that advocates for social darwinism and is perfectly fine with a few despots engineering our species through selected genocides. Who's the cynist here, you bastard?
the implication that some acts are just so evil that we should never commit them even to ensure the survival of humanity as a whole is moronic.
the fact that you seriously believe that the better alternative is for humanity to perish is adolescent. >cynist
lmao frick off you ESL bastard, its "cynic"
Just a reminder, Denis is taking the films down the future that in the books Paul knew was the worse than causing a galactic jihad >dune normally ends with alia killing the baron, and kicking off the jihad >part two ends with paul greeting the baron by saying "Grandfather." before stabbing him in the neck
this means that even if the future films turn out to be shite, it can just be explained as the worst timeline
i read the books but its been years, can someone confirm to me that the book had the nuclear weapons scene? I remember it as blowing up a lasgun (i think) and then riding the sandworms through the shield wall
who cares though, he dies and his son is half worm and lives for like 5000 years as the god emperor and keeps clones of duncan idaho for him to enact his ss fetish.
I've always regretted reading these books after the first one when everything falls apart so hard in Messiah. >theres the Jihad going on and 61 billion people are dead >its never explained why the frick is this being done in the first place (the Golden Path is not a thing at this point and it would be a shit excuse anyway) >despite this the Landsraad is still engaging in the usual with Paul, even though he is literally doing the thing they fear the most, on a much larger scale than Shaddam ever did
Dune is nonsense, anon. It's abhorrent shit from the start. The imagery and concepts gave it the infamy it has but even then, it's shit. None of it makes any canon sense or has any basis.
Paul is a cuck for not eliminating those sandBlack person rats like he could
Paul is the necessary evil. The Golden Path is ruthless, exacting, and paved not only with genocide but with with crimes against the very soul of humanity, yet it is all necessary for humanity's survival as an interstellar species. A tightrope where a moment of laxity will be falling into an endless abyss.
Paul faces an impossible choice, become the worst tyrant in all of human history or allow humanity to go extinct. His only fault, if you can call it one, is that he chooses indecision while his son Leto II will choose tyranny.
tldr; Read the actual books unless you are genuinely illiterate
Humanity needs a god daddy to shepherd us. Since we tried with AI and cast that off, we had to breed one of our own into the job. Thank goodness he wasnt raised by the bene gesserit school.
>Paul is the necessary evil. The Golden Path is ruthless, exacting, and paved not only with genocide but with with crimes against the very soul of humanity, yet it is all necessary for humanity's survival as an interstellar species. A tightrope where a moment of laxity will be falling into an endless abyss.
>
>Paul faces an impossible choice, become the worst tyrant in all of human history or allow humanity to go extinct. His only fault, if you can call it one, is that he chooses indecision while his son Leto II will choose tyranny.
>
>tldr; Read the actual books unless you are genuinely illiterate
this is the delusion of every genocidal tyrant in history ever.
>I need to kill a hundred million people for the good of humanity. Source: trust me bro
This homie let the main plot point fly over his head because of muh magic space clairvoyance lmao and unironically thinks space stalin was in the right like a good sheeple OMEGALUL
He can actually see the future. In Messiah, he doesnt need physical eyes to know where hes going.
You are at the head of a crowd of blind men, and you are suddenly given sight. You see that all are slowly shuffling towards a cliff. You plead and beg to change their course. Some listen, some do not, some lash out in the direction of the offending words. You might have to break some noses before you have the crowd safely diverted from the cliff.
One problem with all of this. The no-chamber and no-ships, devices which could create an insulated bubble where those inside could hide from presence.
The exitance of the no-chambers and no-ships proves that presence isn't flawless, that factors and variable can be hidden, and thus visions of the future are imperfect.
Frank Herbert was deeply suspicious of "Great Men" be they politicians or religious leaders. The Fremen under Paul and later Leto II commit atrocities in the name of the faith they put into them all the while the Frenmen themselves lose more and more of their identity as the centuries turn into millennia. The only thing that separates Paul and Leto II from Duke Harkonnen is that they see themselves as just as much cogs in the machine rather than the hand which turns it. They are less outwardly megalomaniacal but just as helpless.
paul/leto literally save humanity. by analogy, herbert is saying that hitler was right and we live in a doomed timeline
That's also exactly correct
Yeah. Have you castrated your kids yet btw?
Have you not read far enough ahead to get to where Leto II breeds a bloodline specifically invisible to prescience? Either Herbert had a change of heart, or it was his plan all along to subvert the prescient tyrant plotline. Ultimately it's up for interpretation what is good and what isn't, but the way I took it is that the entire point was to make humanity so sick of oppression under the prescient tyrant that they would decide to scatter. Leto knew this. The goal was to ensure survival of the species, this point is repeated a lot. So what Paul saw must have been the necessary steps to conquer the universe, subject it to tyranny, force mass eugenics, then force humanity to scatter and become invisible to prescience through the Atreides bloodline. It tracks. What Paul probably saw was a path that completely ended his prescient sight into humanity's future.
>He can actually see the future
How does he even know this? He could just be schizo for all he knows
because everything ends up coming true? fremen take arrakis, arrakis becomes green, the galactic jihad, the Leto 2 worm stuff etc
>just trust the great leader! He said le bad things will happen if he doesn't kill the entire country. How does he know? w-well he can see the future of course! he is a living god emperor!
dune is a warning against people like you who'll be the first to rat out your neighbors to be sent to the gulags.
the difference between paul and genocidal tyrants is that he can literally see into the future and understand the costs and benefits of his actions. If you knew without a shadow of a doubt that your options were either complete human extinction, or survival on a path paved with blood (which is how humans became the apex creatures of earth in the first place granting you the ability to type on a computer and enjoy the conveniences of modern life) a vast majority would prefer the latter.
What would've wiped out humans had it not been the golden path? I know his son ended up saying it was the AI machines like terminator or Matrix but is that really what people think Frank intended? there never really was aliens in Dune
im just gonna repeat what the others said but Paul and his son have total prescience which means they can see that theres only one way to avoid human extinction, genocide and tyranny can be justified if theres absolutely no other way, we might be in this very same situation as a species currently
Yes and that makes him a good guy and a hero
When we will have a Space Stalin that kills quatrillions because he wants instead of having the same moronic excuse of "le greater good", "le killing trillions for humanity's future"?
When??
They should have updated Dune for modern audiences and sensibilities, he looks into the future the audience sees trillions dieing it cuts back the Paul and all he says is "woah, based"
There are literally no other aliens in Dune. Humanity is safe
Fascism is good actually
of course it is, look around
obviously
true
He's supposed to be, he's not once portrayed as a bad guy. Probably the most morally good guy in dune which is why he's conflicted over his destiny since his rise would give way for the jihad
>Paul should’ve doomed humanity because killing people is bad
The problem is there's no subtlety. It's like a Redditor frequently reminding you it's actually Frakenstein's Monster. Paul's self fulfilling prophecy is going to cause space muslims to go out and start holy wars across the galaxy, I get it. When you repeatedly tease it, it doesn't become a big surprise, or some deep intelligent thing that's behind the scenes. Paul immediately turns into a taliban leader at the end, and the brainlet audience pats themselves on the back and says OHHH I SAW THIS COMING, I'm smart and "media literate". Frick off
Except the whole reason Frank wrote Messiah was because many readers didn't catch it from the first book.
Untrue, Frank wrote all three books almost simultaneously
will he turn into a giant worm like he did in the books?
That's his son.
I would've let humanity go extinct and life to go on its way, leave the floor for other species to flourish, as intended. I don't understand this idiotic sentiment of defending humanity no matter what, especially if you throw morals down the cesspit anyway by becoming a bloodthirsty tyrant and indulge in genocides.
Morals exist only to aid in human survival. Without survival morals are worthless.
That's bullshit and doesn't even answer my question. There's no point in committing atrocities for millennia just so that humanity could persevere for a handful more but in a miserly state. It's like keeping a man on the verge of death comatose so that he could live as a vegetable and for you to give yourself a pat on the back telling yourself how good were you to doom him to an ignominious half life.
>That's bullshit
It's not, what are morals worth if everyone is dead?
>There's no point in committing atrocities for millennia just so that humanity could persevere for a handful more but in a miserly state.
But it doesn't, it continues to thrive. More time alive means more time to improve.
we are arguing with a depressed, anti-natalist, moral purist brainlet who said "I would've let humanity go extinct" without a hint of self-awareness. there is no victory here.
>unironic anti-humanism
wow, amazing take. if cracking a few eggs to make an omelet is so bad, why are you even alive? your own existence is predicated on thousands of years of suffering and the products you consume are made in sweatshops. the fact that you are living and consuming directly necessitates the suffering of others whom you will never meet. why don't you just fricking have a nice day then?
brainlet homosexual
You're a fricking idiot, i'm talking about postponing the inevitable extinction of humanity here.
Bu the way, our species is a cancer and i cannot wait for our collective stupidity to excise ourselves from this marred planet. As you said, crack a few eggs to make an omelette.
>our species is a cancer and i cannot wait for our collective stupidity to excise ourselves
have a nice day anti-human, anti-natalist frick. no one will miss you.
Neither will you, because you're a drone that advocates for social darwinism and is perfectly fine with a few despots engineering our species through selected genocides. Who's the cynist here, you bastard?
the implication that some acts are just so evil that we should never commit them even to ensure the survival of humanity as a whole is moronic.
the fact that you seriously believe that the better alternative is for humanity to perish is adolescent.
>cynist
lmao frick off you ESL bastard, its "cynic"
They drink and eat their own piss and shit because there is no water. super sci fi...you wouldn't get it
I bet fap cum is an egregious sin
Just a reminder, Denis is taking the films down the future that in the books Paul knew was the worse than causing a galactic jihad
>dune normally ends with alia killing the baron, and kicking off the jihad
>part two ends with paul greeting the baron by saying "Grandfather." before stabbing him in the neck
this means that even if the future films turn out to be shite, it can just be explained as the worst timeline
Dunc doing an AOE? Was the book ending really that bad?
That sneaky booger
next movie will take place during the jihad.
interesting if true
i read the books but its been years, can someone confirm to me that the book had the nuclear weapons scene? I remember it as blowing up a lasgun (i think) and then riding the sandworms through the shield wall
media liter my balls eracy
>no cinematic training
Guess what? I will not listen to someone with no cinematic training.
who cares though, he dies and his son is half worm and lives for like 5000 years as the god emperor and keeps clones of duncan idaho for him to enact his ss fetish.
his legacy is ruined
Paul is a tragic figure. He’s neither good nor evil. He’s a victim.
I've always regretted reading these books after the first one when everything falls apart so hard in Messiah.
>theres the Jihad going on and 61 billion people are dead
>its never explained why the frick is this being done in the first place (the Golden Path is not a thing at this point and it would be a shit excuse anyway)
>despite this the Landsraad is still engaging in the usual with Paul, even though he is literally doing the thing they fear the most, on a much larger scale than Shaddam ever did
Dune is nonsense, anon. It's abhorrent shit from the start. The imagery and concepts gave it the infamy it has but even then, it's shit. None of it makes any canon sense or has any basis.