Rewatched DS9, and it hit me that the Dominion's decision making when they first became aware of the Federation completely eliminated their strat...

Rewatched DS9, and it hit me that the Dominion's decision making when they first became aware of the Federation completely eliminated their strategic advantage, because the Founders and the Jem'Hadar were morons.
Why do the Founders have power? Because they can shapeshift, take over a planet's seat of power in government, and conquer it that way without even firing a shot. They attempted to do this to the Federation/Klingons/Romulans *after* the war had already began, when the Alpha quadrant powers knew that they would attempt something like that.
If the Jem'Hadar hadn't have attacked the Federation vessel at their first contact in the Gamma Quadrant, the Founders could have very easily just infiltrated all of the Alpha quadrant governments and military before the Federation even discovered that the Dominion were hostile. The Dominion could have even established peaceful relations with the Federation during this time, while secretly infiltrating their government.

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  1. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    The Dominion is from a far corner of the galaxy. They didn't really know the scope of the interstellar nations in the Alpha Quadrant. They've probably been bullying people on a planet by planet basis for centuries rather than other empires. They also don't really care at the end of the day since blood is cheap to them and the soldiers come off assembly lines. It's unlikely they could have outfoxed Section 31 or other intelligence agencies for long.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >The Dominion is from a far corner of the galaxy. They didn't really know the scope of the interstellar nations in the Alpha Quadrant. They've probably been bullying people on a planet by planet basis for centuries rather than other empires.
      This. Seemed like they were just confused and believed the Federation was representing some small local cluster of worlds they somehow overlooked before that point.

  2. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    The Dominion were repeatedly shown to be smug decadent buttholes who had not encountered a serious rival in a long time with the Founders being reclusive and leaving most of the day to day governance to their genetically engineered client races. It is pretty believable the Voorta and Jem'hadar middlemen would just intend on using displays of force to bully the Federation on first contact as that was implied to be how they acted to the small powers they had subjugated in the Gamma quadrant. Its not like they expected the wormhole to open or knew who was going to come through it or why. The Founders really only got involved when it became clear the wormhole to the Alpha quadrant was potentially a huge problem.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Good point, given how active especially the female changeling was in the war, it's easy to forget that up to meeting the feds, the founders really preferred to let the vorta and jem'hadar handle the day-to-day of the dominion since they found dealing with solids so tedious anyway.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      The only reason the Dominion even had the upper hand is the moral gay goodie two shoes shit the federation has to abide by.
      They were still thinking about peace negotiations while the Jem'Hdar were 12" up Betazeds ass.
      Section 31 did the right thing. By developing a weapon to be used on the leader class. It gave the Federation some leverage. It is not like they glassed planets of innocent low power followers either.
      It is one of the reasons why the Federation could not really exist in real life. No hostile alien force is beholden to earth values of honor or justice. The enemy does not have to put up with your propaganda either.
      it is why they eventually had to break foundational rules to even get the Romulans on side. When the enemy has a different rule book than you, you defeat yourself by "being above it".

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Section 31 did nothing wrong, and by curing the disease, the twink doctor doomed the entire quadrant to eternal subversion and war.

        You must be new.

        I don't post much in /trek/ threads

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          The cure should have been the carrot to get them to the table and make them see reason.
          >WELL DIZ IS SUBJACAGION BY FLESHIES AGAIN WE WUZ HURT BY SOLIDS LONG AGO
          I always fricking hate these story's of "the shoe is on the other foot" and "how would you like it".
          Because it just says to everyone that they are willing to use any power they have in the same way the people that hurt them did. You cannot reasonably negotiate with people like that. Because they have hated their oppressors for so long that they became them.

          well the entire advantage and prosperity of the federation stemmed from their society being that way. at least it knew that and the necessity of section 31 to handle situaitions like the dominion.
          i just dont understand why section 31 didnt have authority to do what they did and order the crew of ds9 to stfu and help them with whatever they needed or face jail.

          Necessary evil.
          it is implied that the top leaders of the Fed do know of the activity's. And tolerate their existence. Because the Fed would collapse if they followed their own rules to the letter.
          There is always going to be someone who uses your own rules against you. Section 31 is there to prevent that.
          The Fed produces propaganda.
          >We are peace and love gay space communsim
          But to enforce that Section 31 is called in.

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >You cannot reasonably negotiate with people like that
            I've heard it described as a second order disagreement. There is no common ground, no relations outside of pure power, in which case it quickly becomes win at all costs, and genocidal.

            • 2 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              >The side that wants to be left alone will always lose to the side that wants to win.
              It took the fall of Betazed and the Dominion being in Earths back yard. For them to wake up and start using 1 line from the enemy's engagement rule book.

              I like the idea that most of the brass are embarrassed and awkward about Section 31 because the fact that it exists and saves their asses regularly essentially proves how deficient their entire system is.
              They probably just make sure as few people as possible ever notice them, they might not even bother giving orders. S31 seems to be the type to know of a problem before most people and just quietly deal with it.
              Then they make a report about incidents that never happened, just so that brass can give orders which prevent those things from never happening again.

              Also frick the episode where Bashir and Miles reverse Mindrape the S31 dude. Even tho he deserved family time, he did the right thing in his service.

              [...]
              >product line discontinued from failing to protect a founder

              Section 31 would probably operate on a stand alone basis, meaning the boss there would monitor situation reports and decide if intervention is needed.
              Example being, some butthole Klingon decided to play a coup that would harm the Fed. They would have him have an accident by the end of the night.
              But i would think during war time, they would get specific orders from top brass. To find ways of defeating and upper handing an enemy. There is 0 way the top brass did not know about the Virus developed to given to the Founders. In fact i would bet they commissioned it.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                I think brass are still too squimish for direct orders. I expect a couple of HQ's put in various location equipped with the newest and best of all sorts of tech, half of which was reported lost and the other half never reported existing.

                As

                Section 31 infected Odo with the virus way back in S4 actually, right after the ~~*founders*~~ did that conference bombing. He spread it to the link in the S4 finale, the symptoms just took a few years to manifest.

                reminds me, the Virus was used in Season 4 and development obviously didn't happen within a lazy weekend.
                Are you really saying that top Feddie brass had committed to ordering or allowing a genocidal virus in late season 3?

                Section 31 is comprised of insanely competent and experienced individuals, they don't need orders, they knew what needed to be done before the brass bearers had their little crisis meetings.

                I can only imagine how often S31 had to restrain themselves from strangling feddie leadership because of utterly moronic/dangerous decisions made because of muh values.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >I think brass are still too squimish for direct orders.
                I don't think that was the case remember the were willing to hand out the bio gel just on pie in the sky scheme by Sisco and Garrek.
                They were clearly searching for a way to fight back and were just grasping for any plan.
                It is not unreasonable that they ordered Section 31 to do shit during those times.

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            I like the idea that most of the brass are embarrassed and awkward about Section 31 because the fact that it exists and saves their asses regularly essentially proves how deficient their entire system is.
            They probably just make sure as few people as possible ever notice them, they might not even bother giving orders. S31 seems to be the type to know of a problem before most people and just quietly deal with it.
            Then they make a report about incidents that never happened, just so that brass can give orders which prevent those things from never happening again.

            Also frick the episode where Bashir and Miles reverse Mindrape the S31 dude. Even tho he deserved family time, he did the right thing in his service.

            missing best hottest titty monster vorta

            >product line discontinued from failing to protect a founder

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >it is implied that the top leaders of the Fed do know of the activity's. And tolerate their existence. Because the Fed would collapse if they followed their own rules to the letter.
            'Sovereign is he who decides on the state of exception'

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        well the entire advantage and prosperity of the federation stemmed from their society being that way. at least it knew that and the necessity of section 31 to handle situaitions like the dominion.
        i just dont understand why section 31 didnt have authority to do what they did and order the crew of ds9 to stfu and help them with whatever they needed or face jail.

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Because giving section 31 that authority is a direct admission that the methods of the Federation are insufficient if not wrong.

          They cannot accept that but Section 31 themselves understand that, they love the Federation despite its flaws and will do all the nasty shit they need to, no matter what core values their trample.
          It's essentially the "needs of the many" taken to it's natural conclusion. The Federation can only pretend Section 31 doesn't really exist even as it saves them.

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Section 31 is their CIA, they just don't come out in the open

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        The Federation is a sleeping giant. If you look at the tech available to the Feddies, they can easily glass entire subsectors if they wanted to. Feddy ships are also purposely underpowered and weakly armed so as not to alarm any alien races. Even then, glorified cruise liners such as the Galaxy class can still mog purpose built Klingon and Romulan warships. Imagine if space Pearl Harbor happened and the Feddies finally got off their asses and made Galaxy class-sized Defiants armed with tricobalt torps as the main weapon.

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Yeah people forget that in the Original Series that's actually a directive that allows captains to orbital bombard a planet.

          And there's a Federation planet full of secret tech and lore that they can tap into. Section 31 and the virus they concocted was the most humane option that they chose. Imagine if the Federation wasn't playing games?

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >Imagine if the Federation wasn't playing games?
            But they always do play games. To keep up the front that they gave up war.
            They even have to break their own no money rule when dealing with Ferengi. As Latinum is the only thing that makes things move with them.
            That is just a minor example of how they break their own rules when it comes to dealing with outside forces.
            It reminds me of the real world story about how Tetris was made.
            The fat cats in the communist party sold the rights and made bank off it to capitalist country's.

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          why have /tg/ gays for 30 years said that the galaxy class is weak and a failure when it's been proven many times on screen to be the feds' most powerful starship?

  3. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    The changelings simply didn't trust solids. Keep in mind that although the founders had the ability to coup governments through inpersonation and such, they weren't flawless. I doubt they even had experience with larger-scale structures such as the Federation, Klingons or Romulans. The wormhole was as new to the Dominion as to the Alpha Quadrant. Another point is that friendly negotiations wouldn't been a possibility without the Founders changing their view of the solids. The only reason the Dominion war ended was because of Odo, a fellow changeling, convinced her to stand down and surrender.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      That and they offered up the cure for the virus Section 31 slipped them.

      I also like the plot from STO that the female changeling is a particularly vindictive c**t, and the Great Link is just being influenced by bigoted vindictive changelings at large.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      the federation would have eliminated them no matter what at this point

  4. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    What is up with all the ds9 threads

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Its a great show worthy of discussion.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      It's a good, fun show

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      nutrek is visiting nu-ds9 next week and these are ads
      pic related

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        It's true, paramount shares about to crash fail and in a meltdown. sony is about to scrap it because of how bad it is.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Nope, I created half of these threads personally and I am definitely not on Paramount's payroll.

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >I'm not an ad, trust me.

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            You really think Paramount is paying people to come to Cinemaphile and make posts about the minutia of 30 year old TV shows?
            That theory was more believable when everyone thought Paramount was astroturfing nu-trek shit in /trek/ general threads. But this is DS9, an old series with almost no mainstream appeal.

            • 2 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              >You really think Paramount is paying people to come to Cinemaphile and make posts about the minutia of 30 year old TV shows?

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                this eventually gets said in every Star Trek thread on Cinemaphile for some reason, but:
                >take your meds

            • 2 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              Think? We know.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                proofs?

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                You must be new.

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Nobody advertises a 30 year old show dude

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      JUDGE SISKO HANDS DOWN ANOTHER RULING, BUT WHERE'S HIS EVIDENCE!?!?

  5. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Ok fellas, you know the drill, pick 3
    >frick
    >marry
    >kill

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >frick
      the honey on the left
      >marry
      iggy
      >kill
      the noname guy on the right
      Jeffrey combs? just gonna take a selfie with him for my gram

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Frick leftmost, marry Weyun, kill the rightmost.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >Frick Weyun-5, marry Weyun-6, kill Weyun-7.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      There's a vorta missing from here, the cutie girl who tricks Sisko that one episode

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Eris, who was also telekinetic but they forgot that for some reason.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      missing best hottest titty monster vorta

  6. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Section 31 infected Odo with the virus way back in S4 actually, right after the ~~*founders*~~ did that conference bombing. He spread it to the link in the S4 finale, the symptoms just took a few years to manifest.

  7. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous
  8. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Despite all this idiocy that the Founders had, the Dominion was fricking scary since Day 1. They never got nerfed like the Borg.

    Think about it. If the alliance didn't have Sisko with those wormhole gods to make that invasion fleet disappear, there's no fricking way the Dominion wouldn't have won.

    The Dominion War was only fought with a bare fraction of their personnel and resources that were stuck on the Alpha Quadrant side of the wormhole. It'd be like warring against the Soviet Union that's stationed only in Poland and they STILL inflicted massive casualties AND conquered Federation homeworlds like Betazed and damaged Earth.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Betazed could be conquered by Nausicaans with how fricking shit their military strength is. They invest everything in society and sciences, with anything remotely militaristic probably a century old compared to other races.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Still the fact that the Dominion made deep inroads into Federation territory despite fighting with both hands tied behind their back and using only 1 foot is basically what happened in the Dominion War.

  9. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    The only way any aspect of the dominion makes any sense is if the gamma side of the wormhole was extremely close to the founder’s homeworld. Nothing else explains the level of sheer panic the founders display at every point.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Their first planet was close enough to be easily reached with a shuttle from near the wormhole - their second planet also seems relatively close.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      The wormhole was the major gamechanger that they explained when the Dominion was first introduced.

      They already had some inklings of what the Federation and Alpha Quadrant was like, but they anticipated a confrontation a couple hundred years. The fact that there's a wormhole right nearby Dominion territory threw their calculations and caused them to go apeshit. The Federation exploration of the Gamma Quadrant which the Dominion basically treated as their own private territory and the colonization by those Bajorans made them absolutely determined to not allow any foreign power to establish foothold.

      There was a great PC game that actually had the wormhole discovered a few years before Cardassia withdrew from Bajor. The Cardassians made an alliance with the Dominion and it resulted in long-term subterfuge to war against the Alpha and Beta Quadrant powers with far more weapons and intelligence than the original war.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Gene did something like that with his other show Andromeda.
        The Nietzschean played nice till they all let their guards down and then they struck.

  10. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >Because they can shapeshift, take over a planet's seat of power in government, and conquer it that way without even firing a shot.
    stop being antisemitic

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