Seriously, why do people act like "changing a character race" is a big deal?
Why is it important to keep a character race?
Seriously, why do people act like "changing a character race" is a big deal?
Seriously, why do people act like "changing a character race" is a big deal?
Why is it important to keep a character race?
Because it usually tells me that the writers/creators are trying to "make it their own," which means shitty modern American writing, which is obviously a negative.
fpbp
The problem is that you fundamentally can't trust modern writers.
Calling them writers is an insult to the idea.
They don't treat writing as a craft.
Art is always 'subjective' and there are no acceptable objective measures they allow for comparison.
I thought about this for a while, and I think a big deal is that most of these writers don't read enough.
Also that the producers don't think black people can sell a movie, so they feel the need to give them hand me down white roles to play instead of letting them play black characters. Producers don't think black characters or authors are bankable.
That's fricked up.
No wonder JJ wanted "black Superman" and not Icon or Steel.
With Icon they were probably wanting to avoid paying any more royalties to Milestone. It's why a lot of Milestone Comics characters (Static, etc.) have gotten sidelined.
>Also that the producers don't think black people can sell a movie, so they feel the need to give them hand me down white roles to play instead of letting them play black characters. Producers don't think black characters or authors are bankable.
They're not wrong. Half the anons here will complain about Black person fatigue if it's a black original character but will see a race swapped thing in order to complain about it in greater detail.
>No wonder JJ wanted "black Superman" and not Icon or Steel.
That and the fact that Icon sucks as a character and you'd need his sidekick which immediately changes the dynamic (curious how nobody that says they should do an Icon movie ever mentions Rocket) and Steel already got a movie that was a joke.
>make it their own,
Can you show me the comic accurate movie or show?
k
Can you go frick yourself, you disingenuous piece of shit?
Spawn
it unironically objectifies other races
Whoever does this basically treats other races like they're these shiny keys they need to dangle in our faces to get our attention. They don't see people of other races as people, but as objects.
Literally LITERALLY anyone who does this is genuinely more racist than any alt-right white supremacist chud could ever be
fpbp, they're just replacing white characters with black people mostly.
Ellis would have a heart attack if he had write the one who loves the Antichrist as a villain.
>Hector's design in the show was on point
>but he was turned into a completely different, pathetic, worthless character that you can't help but wonder why even bother with the visual faithfulness
Maybe there are fates worse than a race swap
Hector was treated that way because he didn't love the Antichrist. Isaac made most of the show a complete waste of time because the writers were too in love with his objectively evil ass.
I liked Isaac's story but yeah dude's evil as frick. Someone saying "well he's not really evil" should pay attention to the part where he creates and orders around an army of creatures from hell that also happen to enjoy eating and killing people. Not pretend hell or something like hell. Actual hell.
>I liked Isaac's story but yeah dude's evil as frick.
That didn't stop them from giving him a "redemption arc" where he uses his evil slavery magic to build a kingdom.
It's more of a 2 part thing (or at least has a simple but more problematic sign of things).
Pt.1 (or simple):
Most of the time the character aren't their own really. It's one thing to make your own FanFic or Headcannons but when you're entrusted with someone or a group of people's IPs it's best to respect it.
Pt. 2 (more problematic)
FPBP for this one here () 90% of the time these creative liberties are more indicative of a bad story or something seriously going wrong. Amber from Invincible, Aang from the LA ATLA, Johnny Storm, Catwoman in her LA. Though that doesn't mean it'll always turn out badly, like Catwoman from the 60s show, The Mandarin from IM3, Kingpin from DD.
1.IMO if there's a good story, BUT a character was race changed that's a negative, but the show is still good.
2. The problem is the shows or movies can't land on the goal so it really makes you question why they took so many liberties if they couldn't even tell a proper story? Most times what I hear from other black people is that a character's (usually white) race isn't fundamental or inherent to their character, when in reality the character was created from intersectionality.
>inb4 what does intersectionality
Character are a simple extension of the writer(s) psyches and lives. There's a reason why characters like Peter Parker, most of Watchmen, Batman, DD, are the way they are and it's 9/10 due to the experiences of the writer and how they view multiple things.
3. When the conversation does switch to a black character it immediately changes because their race is inherently fundamental due to all the racism, slavery, and shit in America, so having an original black character go white is very disrespectful. While I can def. see where they're coming from, this seems more like Black People or people who agree trying to get reparations in a weird way. Having White Characters go Black doesn't change anything because most people still remember the OG still.
>Aang from the LA ATLA
When did they change Aang from a asiatic to a black?
NNNOOO STRAIGHT WHITE MEN ARE OPPRESSED NNNOOO
because i get to care about wathever the frick i want and if i want to throw an autistic tantrum over sonics arms its my right
Chris you need to get back to the courtroom, this is silly.
I respect your autistic honesty.
I really don't care about it, but as a ginger the trend of them making redheads black is kind of weird
It was weird years beforehand, now it's just deliberate malice.
It shows the writers have no confidence in minorities, a famous white character in their eyes exists as a booster seat for spreading diversiy and nothing else.
If the character's race isn't not a big deal, then why are you trying to change the race?
The same reason you ad on the Golden Age, a bunch of similar looking characters usually just blend with each other and you have a hard time selling them, but add some different culture or ethnicity and the concept becomes new again.
The fundamental problem with a lot of old and forgotten characters is that they're boring, unoriginal, half-baked clones of other characters. Making them brown doesn't fix or improve the concept in any way.
>Race doesn't matter
>But changing the race changes the concept and makes it new
You'd better not be OP, but I bet you are.
>and you have a hard time selling them
You mean like all of the minority characters they've been ham fistedly shoving into everything, that nobody is buying the toys of? Superheroes, Fantasy, you name it; people don't want toys of Blacks and yellow people.
>all white people look the same, you can't tell them apart
who is the racist one again? Because you sound quite racist to me
>"You are the REAL racists"
No
Nice counter-argument
Multiculturalism is the killer of the home countries culture. You don't experience a races culture by going into a restaurant like a pseudo intellect homosexual you can experience it by traveling to said countries.
I've been to Poland (before Ukrainian people moved in), Italy, Sweden and Demark (filled with "refugees") and I'll tell you I could identify Polands culture more than the other countries I've visited since it wasn't a mush of other crap that shouldn't be there in the first place. Sweden was the worse, Malmo was like an Iraq warzone and I never seen any sign of Swedish culture because it was overflowed with Muslim identity. Glad I wasn't car bombed.
Frick people who thinks this way.
That's the real depressing thing about the last 20 years and the Rape of Europe. All those unique and old cultures swallowed up into mutt/muslim shit holes.
I don't know if we'll ever be able to acknowledge what we lost.
If the Europeans actually cared, they'd say something about it like Americans have.
Some europeans are saying shit. That's why you get articles about the rise of 'far right' political groups in euro countries.
>be European
>say that the refugees are killing culture and raising crime
>get arrested for thought crimes
>culture can't change
>must be static forever
>old culture never had influence from the outside
>implying crime is refugee' culture
Hmm
>it is hard to sell Superman
>it is hard to sell Death
because white people dont derserve to leech off comics created by israeli men
ok, then israelites should not be in the film industry because white people invented movies
>he believes white men don't still profit from media starring race changed characters
Why is it important to change a character's race?
Because A) your race greatly effects who you are and the culture you grow up in. Characters who change race should also have changes in their personality and backstory or they're just changing their color just for clout, and those that do have those changes might as well be a different character at that point.
And B) They're always changed to be black. It's never a white guy person becoming asian, or an asian becoming latino, and it's definitely never anyone become white if they weren't already. You can't claim to be doing something for diversity if everyone is changing into the same color.
BY ODIN'S FADE
>Because A) your race greatly effects who you are and the culture you grow up in
true but if you ever admitted that or god forbid applied it to your work the wokes would call you racist
have you ever actually spoken to these "wokes"
they will absolutely agree to you that people of differently races act differently due to social and environmental factors
the problem is when you try to argue genetic race essentialism
see the Atom for white to asian
but yes changing a characters race, gender, sexual orientation is usually lazy writing trying to leech fame off a notable brand. It's mainly used to promote diversity instead of creating a new original character and while it is true it is hard to get a new IP going, it cheapens the character into just being a tool to promote whatever social message the writers want to shill.
It can be done correctly with some characters for example Mr. Terrific or John Stewart but nowadays people are to creatively bankrupt to do it properly.
also did the writers of YJ realize that the Phantom Stranger is Judas Iscarot, meaning it was a black man who betrayed Jesus. In hindsight that doesn't seem like a good idea if you are trying to make him a diversity icon
also I forgot to mention how hypocritical it is for race swapping, for example forget Black Panther being south african, you can make a better argument by making him Indian, black leopards occur in India and you could easily copy the superscience/psuedo mystical theme and if people complain you can point out they are just as racist because he isn't white.
Black Panther was made white multiples time. One time the government wanted a white Black Panther because he was a Wakandian nationalist. Changing Black Panther race will always be the silliest gotcha.
>What if they changed Black Panther to be white!
Then he'd just be Doctor Doom.
Or Aquaman.
Or Namor.
Or any of the dozen other "king of a super advanced country that doesn't exist in the real world" in comic books. Hell, I'm surprised you guys don't make a bigger deal about Gorilla City around here.
How does being black separate him from the other kings you mentioned.
It doesn't. That's my point.
>Why not White Panther?!
is just a spiteful cope and people that want it already have it multiple times over. They don't even really want White Panther; they just don't want black people to have anything. They just want to get back at people that have slighted them.
>or John Stewart
Cinemaphile would be b***hing 24/7 if John had debuted today.
The well has been thoroughly poisoned
How will we ever solve racism when black people will always see themselves as separate from white people? It's always 'our people' this and that
>your race greatly effects who you are
No, it doesn't.
It definitely effects how the world treats you within whatever society you live in, which would then shape your world-view.
Nope, how the world treats me does not affect how I see the world at all. The world's a shitty place, everybody is suffering, being good is being yourself, not whatever self would fit best with the world.
>Your genetic makeup, social status, family history, and the culture you're born into doesn't effect the person you grow up to be.
Right, I'm sure it's all your astrology or something.
Its a child's point of view that you grow up becoming who you believe would fit best in the world. Adults choose via educated decisions, childrens choose via contrarian knee jerk reactions to how they were treated by others. Its a followers mindset, don't think, just act according to what or how the media or other people treat you.
I didn't say anything about the media, I'm talking about your family. The people who raise you have an effect on who you are as a person and you're lying to yourself if you think otherwise.
Tabula rasa is a childish view of the world.
Race defines the character. Also it's done for political reasons.
It's easy to tell someone's race just from the way they speak. Either you have zero ability to read people or you are delusional. It's a travesty when they have the same dialogue come out of the mouth of a rainbow of characters in comics and other mediums.
Hence grooming kids with comics and other things to change the " social and economic factors." Doesn't work at getting rid of race but it does mess up kids
It feels really lazy and disrespectful. Instead of creating a new, interesting character with cool powers who happens to be a minority, you get some white hand-me-down character with a palette swap.
Counterpoint: As much as Cinemaphile and others claim they want new characters, don't care about race, and hate hand me down race swaps, their wallets and b***hing tells a different story. So practice what you preach and support the actual good examples of what you ask for.
Okay I'll start I highly recommend room of swords(it's a webtoon if that bothers)
Description from the page :The 34th time Gyrus wakes up in a world ruled by monsters, he still thinks it's his first! Little does he know, he's stuck in a loop until he can survive long enough to collect the treasured “boss sword” from the Boss of Monsters and unlock the mythical Room of Swords before he dies agai-– whoops, too late! Well, here’s to lucky thirty-five…
If you love a fun mystery with some time frickery in it you will have a good time reading also the cast is very diverse in ethnicity and sexuality.
You should start reading Cinemaphile-made comics rather than that drivel, anon.
^This.
Instead of making the next Spawn or Static shock, they just throw Mary Jane Watson in blackface.
Because there is no reason to change a character's race if their appearance is already well-stabilished, specially in visual medias such as comics, movies, games, or cartoons. This has nothing to do with having someone from whatever race being important in the story or not, it's a matter of respecting the visual identity of whatever the show or comic is trying to portray. Like i said in other threads, i wouldn't like to see a white Blade, Mogli, Mr. Miyagi, Morpheus, or a blonde superman. The character must be at least somewhat close to it's original counterpart.
I would not mind it too much if it was something rarely done, but it's being done excessively nowadays.
I agree with and others. It's just a lazy attempt to introduce 'representation', and generate buzz. It's annoying, and if you complain you're automatically a racist.
because acknowledging differences in race matters, if you say otherwise you are a bigot.
You're not one of those "colorblind" chuds are you?
I could post about accuracy, the writer's ego, etc. All good and valid reasons but at the end of the day its simply bad because it is racist.
Fundamentally, race does indeed tie into a character's identity and it's disingenuous to pretend that it doesn't. Something like a black Bruce Wayne straight up doesn't work for the setting given the history of the Waynes. It's also incredibly lazy. Now passing on mantels to all different kinds of people is fine, provided that they earn them but that's a whole other issue
Bruce Wayans gets his parents killed by hoodrats who resent them for being rich successful blacks
Thomas "Uncle Tom" Wayne
>Something like a black Bruce Wayne straight up doesn't work for the setting given the history of the Waynes
The history of the Wayne never goes deeper than "Thomas and Martha were wealthy" in adaptations so this is just wrong. Every passing year having rich black parents only becomes more and more plausible.
bro do you even lore? The Waynes were riding shotgun to founding of the country and later gotham and even had money in Europe. They are old, old money that just doesn't exist for black americans for a bunch of different reasons. You can take some creative liberties but that does necessarily change the whole family for obvious reasons
>But muh lore
Loregays can go frick themselves when that shit does not matter one fricking iota and almost never comes up due to how not important it is.
>man comes from generations of wealth in america
>his wealth is what enables him to do all the shit he does
>his family also has a special relationship to the city
>this is not important
make a new character you talent-less hack
Because psychotic people only can see themself with characters that share circumstantial physical characteristics
>whitewashed characters
>OMG LIKE CULTURAL APPROPRIATION MUCH?
>blackwashed characters
>LOL SMALL DICK ENERGY/INSECURE MUCH?
Nobody made a thread or talk about this character turning white.
That's just cause I didn't know since I didn't watch, reverse image search says Arrow? Yeah, I avoid all that CW shit, but that change was stupid.
I have no idea who this normal looking dude is supposed to be or where he is supposed to be from.
>Seriously, why do people act like "keeping a character race" is a big deal?
>Why is it important to change a character's race?
Race not only is part of visual design of a character but also contextualizes his/her ethnicity and history without uttering a word. It's only ever a significant problem in American media where they have been inundated by ethnicities trying to carve it out in the country to solidify their place in the nation's identity.
>the one apostle that betrayed Jesus is black
Makes sense tbqhwy
Cause nobody asks why Black Panther can't be South African
T'Challa does have an adopted brother that's white, Hunter (as White Wolf), where the Wakandans were legitimately racist against. So a white Black Panther is very much in play (Hunter was next in line after T'Challa to inherit BP), it just would be Hunter than race-swapping him entirely.
So like a reverse Captain America deal. I could see it
Marvel doing that would tank the goodwill they have with that 'crowd'.
Priest was playing n-th level chess when he made Hunter, predicting the WHAT ABOUT WHITE PANTHER shit down the line
It just made sense that if you had a character that's dominantly about a certain race, you flip it on its head.
A boer south african Black Panther would be interesting if you made a story out of it. It's almost a Superman set up in regards to being torn between adopted identity and biological identity.
Should BP break Wakanda's laws to save his people from their genocide?
Make him Rhodesian and you've got a deal.
We say Zimbabwe now, don't we?
The fact that Black Panther is your first and often only go to just proves that black led projects are that few and far between and that the scales were always in white guys favor.
Nobody owes you "representation"
But they owe you?
I can think of at least 3 black superheroes that got films before Spider-man.
Blade, Meteroman, Blankman?
There's Steel too
And Spawn
I could forgive myself for Steel but how did I forget Spawn.
Wasn't blade the first marvel character to get a movie of note though
And that was 20 years before BP. That's few and far between.
Interestingly enough it's kind of funny how nobody seems to care that they removed Blade's white half.
you're moronic if you think blaming regular people instead of hollywood that doesn't showcase black characters that already exist will change a fricking thing
Hollywood makes what they think regular people will buy.
For me, it is less that the character’s race was changed in and of itself, and more so that it is almost always done to make some kind of arbitrary diversity token rather than legitimate attempts at improving the design. It simply bugs me when artists meddle with things for ulterior reasons.
Because it's a sign of wokeness, and because they want to change iconic characters to be minorities.
If it wasn't woke shit, why aren't characters of minorities race changed to white?
If diversity doesn't matter, why do you cry every time someone isn't white anymore?
because it's changing the character in a significant visual way
are you moronic?
So it's about just skin color.
it's about the character's appearance changing to something completely different, so much so that it may as well be a different person, you stupid chimp.
Why do they always and only make them black?
It's shitty but can be ignored if they race swap a character but nothing else changes.
It's downright horrendous when they race swap and change everything about the character, making it pointless.
It's just hilarious when they raceswap a character and play into every stereotype in the book.
Because it started with changing the races of the cast of the Witcher which is a Polish story about Polish people. And the moronic MAGA crowd and the equally moronic SJW crowd couldn't figure out why this was a bad thing and doing it to someone nobody gives a shit about like a B list American superhero is not.
The greatest lie you've swallowed is equating the anti-sjw crowd with the sjw. One clearly has permeated multiple industries heavily and the other the gestalt of its pushback.
>it started with changing the races of the cast of the Witcher
What the frick no it did not. Not even close. This has been happening since at least 2010 if not earlier.
How underageB& are you to think the fricking Witcher was where it started?
The b***hing started with the Witcher and it remains the only case where it was actually a reasonable thing to complain about.
>The b***hing started with the Witcher
Where did it start then? When a woman became Thor even though it was established previously that a even a fricking alien can become Thor? When they cast an Asian kid as Aang in the live action Avatar movie? Nobody gives a frick about the moronic shit that gets b***hed about on here, there's a threshold where it actually became RELEVANT, which happened fairly recently.
Aang is Asian, it's everyone else who got swapped around
The air nomads are based on asian culture but they are white as frick m8.
Everyone is Asian in Avatarland, it's faux anime
>Where did it start then?
Well before then.
Hell, The Witcher wasn't even the first time that happened with a fricking Netflix adaptation, Death Note's terrible live action adaptation was like 2 years before The Witcher.
The first time I recall it outside of places like Cinemaphile was when Idris Elba played Heimdall.
I don't think anyone saw the Death Note live adaptation to complain about it. And who gives a shit what marvel does. Nobody complained that Nick Fury became black, why would they complain about Heimdall? Surely they aren't stupid enough to think the Norse gods in Marvel are at all related to actual Norse mythology anymore.
>I don't think anyone saw the Death Note live adaptation to complain about it
Anon, I get that you're out-of-touch, but surely you're not THIS out of touch.
People b***hed about that fricking terrible piece of shit for at least 3 months after it released.
Even fricking YMS had a 2 hour rant talking about how terrible that show was.
>And who gives a shit what marvel does.
Who gives a frick what any western studios do at this point? They're all producing almost nothing but shit, I'm just explaining to you that you thinking this is some phenomenon that happened in the last 3 years makes you look like a moron.
Youtubers aren't people.
>That doesn't count!
Take the L, child.
There's a huge difference between "waah it doesn't look like my comics" like Sandman, and "this casting directly contradicts the story and setting" where diversity quotas take precedence over artistic integrity. The latter is absolutely a recent trend.
Ultimate Fury wasn't the same kind of race swap as is done today, Millar just wanted to use Samuel L. Jackson
>Ultimate Fury wasn't the same kind of race swap as is done today, Millar just wanted to use Samuel L. Jackson
So it's okay when Millar does it just because he thinks a black guy is cool but when Trank made Johnny Storm black because he wanted to work with Michael B. Jordan people couldn't stop whining about it even when it was explained why Sue was still white. Sounds like a double standard.
You think the distinction might be that Ultimate Marvel was well received but Fan4stic was a pile of shit?
People were b***hing about Jordan's casting before a single frame or production still was ever released. People were simply complaining because Michael is a black dude. They were not making any kind of quality judgement because they hadn't even seen the fricking movie yet. They hadn't even seen the leaked photos.
I guess, but they'd be b***hing about Jordan getting cast as Icon or Steel as well. Because the truth is that as much as people here cry about race swapping they'll just as eagerly cry about minority legacy characters and original characters just get a shout of "Black person fatigue".
Now having said all that, the problem *was* more that Sue was still white IMO.
>Now having said all that, the problem *was* more that Sue was still white IMO.
It wasn't a problem because they explained in the movie she was adopted and that gave Johnny a character arc about feeling resentment and that made him act up like a moron, because he thought his dad cared more about Sue, who was really good at science like their dad, than him.
I was thinking more in the sense that Sue and Johnny have powers that can be switched on and off and I always assumed that's because there was a genetic component to it.
Millennial Jordan didn't yet have the pull SLJ had
>When a woman became Thor
You mean in 1978? (pic related) The problem is all these stories have been done to death so even what if stories are now getting turned into stories. Marvel got rid of "house style" and proper continuity a while ago. Every event, every story has BIG WORLD ENDING RAMIFICATIONS that just get undone by the next writer. And all the diversity was just another gimmick they used beginning in the early 2010s. Only it was one of the worst gimmicks. Ignoring the culture wars points and everything else (as much as we can), just ask yourself, who is America Chavez? With Spider-Man, Ditko set everything up, all the villains and cast of characters (few exceptions noted) within a few years. In over a decade, we have two origins (lesbian dimension or amnesia hispanic) for her and what else? Can anyone name her villains? Her stories are of really poor quality. Diversity gets mentioned because the average person has linked "attempts at diversity" with "poor story telling".
Animated Spider-Man in the 90s had a multiversal crossover. It was alright. Do we need all this Spider-verse shit? No, it has been done to death and tells all the fricking same derivative stories over and over.
Cinemaphile didn't make thousands of threads b***hing about it in 1978, so no.
That's why I said 2010s later in the post.
>Where did it start then?
2008 San Diego Comic Con
That's when Cinemaphile started complaining about SJWs.
It feels like ithappened recently to YOU because of the saturation of the internet. It has always been there but if you want to pinpoint it in an internet forum/imageboard sense it should be around 2008.
Black heimdall
No it's not. see literally EVERY Netflix adaptation, they all suck, some of the characters look nothing like their original counterparts: Death Note, Teen Titans, Witcher, Cowboy Bebop, Resident Evil...
But those don't MATTER because their race isn't an important part of the character. If they did something like make cyborg white, that would be worth b***hing about.
The thing is, white people in America don't tend to think about their race, they just make white characters because that's what they're used to. It's the default. Characters of other races made BY white people usually have race as a defining characteristic otherwise they wouldn't think to even make the character non-white at all.
The Witcher, specifically, mattered because the characters were specifically meant to be Poles in medieval Poland where diversity doesn't make any goddamn sense. In almost any work that takes place in modern or even future times that does not have purposeful racial message, you can swap the races of characters just fine because every race is everywhere all the time.
And that's when the whole debate on race swapping really hit the mainstream, because it showed a clear double standard in how studios treat white culture vs any other culture.
I know it's Cinemaphile-related but people legitimately threw a shitfit that a historical game Kingdom Come: Deliverance, a game set medieval Bohemia, didn't have any brown people in it. They are aware a double standard exists, what they want is for you not to care much about it.
A tually, the creator of The Witcher fricking HATED the adaption. He hates the video game is the default look of his books.
Also, there historically is some blacks in Poland and Europe in ancient times due to the fact historically there were blacks who got circulated to Europe from africa
Why on Cyborg's case does it matter? I think every example i said matters, because the image IS IMPORTANT. IT IS A VISUAL MEDIA. VISUAL. People associate a character to the way he traditionally looks. And also, if a 'white person can't make a character of another race without the race becoming the defining characteristic for the character', then what it literally every example i've mentioned? They were all made by white people, and yet the race is NOT the defining characteristic of those characters, but it IS a characteristic, and an important one at that.
In the cartoon, being discriminated against for being a robot is an allegory for racial discrimination. Comics cyborg can do whatever nobody gives a shit about him, even the writers.
That was by other robots if I remember correctly. Everyone thinks Cyborg was cool and it wasn't because he's black.
>That was by other robots if I remember correctly.
I think anon was talking about the Troq episode.
That was a Starfire episode as she's being called an ethnic slur. Cyborg's thing was never about race, it's about being half robot, a freak of two worlds.
Yes?
>You know what it feels like simply to be judged by the way you look?
>Of course I do...I'm part robot.
Did you think that was meant to be taken at face value and not an intentional bait and switch? Did you think it was a coincidence that conversation was with Cyborg and not the half-demon or the green kid?
Because Cyborg has self-issues. Literally watch his episodes, especially when he goes against Atlas in Only Human. Bringing in race for Cyborg is like bringing transgenderism into MLAATR.
Is allegory just not a thing where you live?
I simply reject Death of the Author wankery.
So let me make sure I understand your claim. The racism episode has the character getting called a racist slur have a moment of introspection with a black guy about why racist slurs are bad and it's not about race it's actually because the black guy has robot parts. And to claim otherwise is "death of the author wankery".
No fricking wonder studios have to keep swapping characters if this hamfisted PSA shit flies over heads.
No, you fricking moron. Because you're putting blacks into a box. A glass box that you can point out that every struggle they face is a RACIAL one. Cyborg's plainly isn't. It's him being half-robot and his struggle to reconcile the two. THAT is the entire point of his character.
Like I said, they spent just as much time in series, (more actually) with Raven's struggles with identity. Why not have her have that conversation with Starfire?
Raven is not the type to be throwing out a congratulatory word for her teammates (in this case, Troq). However, it could've also worked if the show used Beast Boy for that message.
>Of course I do...when I don't hit those showers.
because whenever it happens it's permanent just look at Lex Luthor from STAS, he got turned into a black man and he's been stuck like that ever since
You're moronic.
why is it always to black
Because that's how the creator made them. homosexual.
Because that makes it a different character.
I don't want a different character. I want the character.
this
she isn't Cinemaphile related but I love bayonetta, why would I want her to look different? it wouldn't be the same character if her race was changed and she looked completely different.
this is probably a bait thread though and OP is a homosexual.
>Cinemaphile loves a coalburner
Checks out.
moron
Where was he wrong?
you know where moron.
>doesn't refute anything
Guess you don't even know.
>refute my headcanon!
kys cuckold
Bayonetta has canonically fricked Rodin.
proof?
Its literally talked about in the first game. If you played it instead of jerking off to the intro you would know that.
Bayonetta is a main character we haven't had a main character race swap in decades. This generation just have a mental breakdown over side characters that never had discussion before.
If we're allowing Cinemaphile examples Leon and Jill are main characters and got raceswapped in the newest Resident Evil movie
Leon was racially white. Jill is not a main character.
>Jill is not a main character.
She's not though. Have you seen the covers.
Holy shit you are actually fricking moronic.
Jill is one of the playable characters in literally the first Resident Evil game.
>umm she's playable therfore she's a main character.
I'm not biting your bait anymore. You might as well say luigi is a main character.
This is why Cinemaphile is the dumbest board on Cinemaphile.
You people literally don't know shit about anything but capeshit and kid's cartoons.
Video games aren't exactly a lofty pursuit either.
Luigi literally is a main character.
>Have you seen the covers.
Have you?
No.
>I post le variant cover of a remake
>you dumb
Not an argument.
Just take the L, this is pathetic.
>Leon the face of the franchise is not the main character, it le boring Jill.
Nah, you need to take the L, the most successful resident is about him.
>Leon
>Face of the franchise
I'm glad you made it obvious that you're an out-of-touch boomer who hasn't played an RE game in 15 years, very fitting for Cinemaphile.
Leon isn't even in half the games, and none of his games are the best-sellers in the franchise.
>>Leon the face of the franchise
That'd be chris and you're actually moronic if you think otherwise.
Lol will smith I am Legend is nothing like the source material.
Neither were the two other movie adaptations.
A lot of the time, it fricks with the color palette, or they use the race swap as an excuse to change the character's personality.
Even worse, most of the time they do it, some person of said race then goes on their social media and lets out a diarrheal tidal wave about how good it is that [race] got representation and how they spent their whole lives living in a white country and only seeing white people on TV, and how they've always wanted to "fix" that, blah blah blah.
Also, why are they always raceswapping to black, and why is it primarily the heroes being swapped?
Raceswapping to a race more culturally-aligned with a hero/villain's concept, I could see, but there's rarely any actual justification behind it other than "BLACK GOOD"
usually different races have different lived experiences. so just swapping means that race is irrelevant to any potential life or character growth. so is that a good thing or bad thing? its definitely cognitive dissonance for the woke types of people.
Its not and I'm still not sure what is more pathetic, the racists who are deeply bothered by this or the minorities that are actually excited when they get shallow pandering like this
The latter.
Change an african-american or POC to a white and see what happens
-An African-america
Would you be against a highschool rendition of hamlet casting a non white for the lead role?
Black people have no business in high school to begin with. Unless it's a special school for colored people.
High school is mostly black people in my experience. Probably because so many white kids end up in private school.
You wouldn't be asking this if it was black characters getting turned into white redheads. You'd be talking about what a big deal this is and screeching for blood.
>You'd be talking about what a big deal this is and screeching for blood.
no one like that actually posts on Cinemaphile
Nobody gives a shit about red heads here. If they did, they'd scream bloody murder over Thor and all the blonds who play redheads in movies.
>You wouldn't be asking this if it was black characters getting turned into white redheads.
Nobody seemed to care when it happened to Baxter Stockman.
But also this is always going to be a false dichotomy because in order for it to have the same response you'd need a black character/franchise that people give a shit about to the same extent that they care about the white ones and if you can name even one I'd be incredibly impressed.
People care about Phantom Stranger.?
They do now that he's changed.
It's that toddler logic. They weren't playing with a toy but if you try and take it now suddenly it's the most important thing in the world to them.
But why did he need to be changed?
Well in baxter stockman's case he was only white in the 80's series and every subsequent series he went back to being black.
Noone wants art to be meddled with by politics. It wasn't as big of a deal before but its becoming obvious how artificially these quotas are being fullfilled. Noone wants prudes meddling with shit and any whiff of their influence is revolting.
Can you elaborate on how race swapping is political?
In some contexts it can work, others it can't. It's that simple. Racism exists, even in fiction, which means how people perceive them changes by skin tone. This is a fact of our society, for better or worse. But for me, I just have a compulsion to see characters adapted from what they were, both in spirit and visually. If it doesn't matter, then what's the point of these characters in the first place?
If you were a black kid would you rather see black superheros or black people taking an established white man's cape?
I wouldn't care or know about it. I would probably play fortnight, basketball and talk to my friends on social.
Normal people can not name the character in OP.
>Seriously, why do people act like keeping a character their original race is a big deal?
>Why is it important to change a character's race?
some things are negliable but more often than not a major change to the character's identity is a sign that the writers don't care about the source material
look at netflix sanit seiya
Well to be fair, it is Netflix. Netflix not going full moronic would actually be a surprise.
turning shun into a female fricks up in so many ends
>female saints need to wear masks
>shun in the reincarnation of hades
>turning the most sensitive member into a girl is less progressive than not having any girls in the first place
>they don't even have the same personality
Well usually when they change race they ignore the characters that was already that race in the series. For example in supergirl they turn the scrawny ginger jimmy olsen into a huge buff black bald guy. The thing is there already is a really cool smart big buff bald black guy his name is john henry irons aka steel who would have fit perfectly in the same role. In addition by removing jimmy olsen for the same chemistry they then had to bring/create a new character for the nerdy sidekick which they could have easily just used jimmy.
>For example in supergirl they turn the scrawny ginger jimmy olsen into a huge buff black bald guy
Because it was a Jimmy Olsen who had been allowed to grow, become confident and physically fit guy not defined by his friendship with Superman, instead of remaining forever a goofy loser sidekick character due to the status quo.
Because it is a slippery slope that begins a whole list of arbitrary changes. Eventually you get so far away from what the thing was doing that it is an awful adaptation. Not everything that is diverse is bad, but diversity used as a gimmick or marketing tool is usually a pretty accurate indication that something bad is coming. Some people claim Tolkien was racist because of the evil men and orcs. Some people argue orcs as a concept are thinly veiled caricatures of black people. So if the *source* is racist then why add blacks in it? Why is it always about changing things and avoiding new stories? The problem is we have gone from "colour blind race doesn't matter" to everyone wanting to talk about how intrinsic it is to cultural experience.. unless you're white. So Black Panther being black is KEY to his identity (because of where he is from) but a white character being white doesn't matter? It is this thing of "African Americans have a culture and white people don't, lol they don't season food" memes. Like I've seen people argue that "well Cap or Daredevil or Spider-Man being white just doesn't matter" but then you're just endlessly creating derivative multiversal characters. Multiverse as a concept over all is a fun gimmick but it has been used too much and fits into this issue.
It all comes down from the postmodernist works of critical consciousness.
I'd read X-Vengers, those are great designs.
Capeshit is extra moronic because they try to make all their alternate versions co-exist when they frequently were never meant to. You get a story "hey what if superman was black" and that's fine but then some other moron comes out and says "hey let's have a crossover between black superman and white superman and asian superman and bizarro superman and mole people superman" and then it's like what the frick why are you trying to make these ridiculous offshoots into their own characters when they're clearly not.
Completely agree.
Because the only reason you "people" ever implement such a change is solely for political or cynical reasons to appeal to other races or women. That's literally it. No one goes around saying like this should happen and that White Panther should be a thing.
Even if racial identity doesn't play an important part to the character, it's still a physical attribute that makes them distinct and audiences can tell X is X by appearance alone. Also, it's insulting how people like you think that characters need their race to be changed to appeal to other people who share that background.
You're just making a White Character Black or some other race, but anyone who has read the original source would instantly recognize that character wasn't originally Black or other race, but White. And that character will always been seen as White, similar to how people identify Spider-man as a White man because Peter Park just happens to be a White Male.
It is interesting how those who claim we're all equal and x plays the race card. Will agree that changing an established chars race is cheap and doesn't take into account the background differences being y color will bring to their life
Just random thought not connected to you
shouldn’t the stranger be middle eastern because he’s Judas?
Phantom Stranger is now a black israelite.
Well how can he be a Stranger if we now all know he's really just Sammy Davis Jr?
Cinemaphile has been especially Cinemaphilemblr lately, whats going on?
The Brown Bomber was among it's first victims.
This idea was scrapped but brought back to make an edgy joke. It was never made in earnest as people like to point out these series of panels.
It's only important when that character's race is related to the narrative. Is Tony Stark a billionaire playboy because he's white? Probably not, but if you're going to tell some kind of story where him being white is a plot point of some kind, then it doesn't make sense to have him be asian in that story.
The people changing a person's race or gender are the ones that has to explain why they're changing a character's trait that's completely obvious noticeable to anyone at first glance. And it always a political or social move. They're the ones who have to justify it because the source material already establishes a character is part of this race or that gender. And it's always a political motivation of attempting to increase racial or gender representation, which is stupid.
It's no different than me suggesting we should change Blade's race to Filipino because it just happens to be the race I identify with and I want more Filipino representation from the media at the expense of another and the source material. You realize how stupid it sounds when it involves another ethnic minority and how it even insults Filipinos because I'm pretty much to the racial equivalent of Blackfacing and that's how it sounds for any other race, White Europeans included.
Why is it do white people always favor more with black people than other non-white people/PoC despite how much they brag about woke diversity and shit?
There are perfectly good minority characters out there and I would rather see those characters get utilized or create new characters
Anime can adapt manga characters without raping the designs. There's no excuse for these adaptations to be spitting on their original material.
Uhh oh anon, don't do that, you'll get some moron mentioning filler or anime-original aspects (because they caught up to the manga and had to make up their own shit because there was no more story to adapt).
Do it the other way around and see what happens change a black character white and say it on Twitter have fun.
Because it's part of what the character looks like. Race swapping's lazy and only stifles creativity.
It's one thing to do it to a character that no one really cares about it like giving them a second chance of life but its always done with well loved characters. Its lazy and shallow pandering no I don't black superman or whatever you have minority characters stop using them as your shitty political mouth piece and create actual stories for them and you know actually advertise them
There are people who define themselves based on what media does with their race. I myself, can't understand this, but I guess its like, they define themselves by their race so much, that anything that has it in media, represents them. So the subject matter if touched is a personal attack? Kinda like how fans of a show, might not acknowledge that is bad about it, and feel attacked by those that do see it and say it.
That's the crazy thing about the reaction to race/gender swapping in media. Star Wars, as an example. I don't need a white man swinging around a laser sword in the title roll of a science fiction movie to get up in the morning and use my time wisely. The whole argument that black people or women *do* is probably the most racist/sexist thing I can imagine, that they're basically animals until they consume this magic pill in the form of disposable media. Everything good about these movies from aesthetics to writing twists to character arcs are more or less lifted wholesale from the fruits of the labor of white men and women (and Billy Dee) who wrote, directed, acted in, and otherwise brought to life a monumental piece of modern cinema almost 50 fricking years ago and every time the new movies step out of that box of toys, they might as well step on a fricking land mine.
There is no creative spirit in the type of person who chooses to become a professional genre writer for a media conglomerate in 2022. There just isn't enough room for those two things to be compatible and the current media landscape is the consequence of that fact.
Also its starting to convince me that I was groomed and brainwashed by propaganda while growing up in school, but it might have have been bad. There was a constant bombardment of the same message. Don't judge a book by its cover. Do unto others, that you would want done to you. Treat others like you would want to be treated. Near constant references to MLK's speech. Among on the nonstop DARE guest visitors, some of them were black, and they would also preach about treating people equally. It was a majority white school, and I will never forget this one time, one of the few black students in the crowd, asking the black DARE guy a question, asked him straight up "why do you focus so much on race when you talk?" and the guy just froze, went totally silent, then ignored the question, gave no answer, and moved on. A near entire generation of kids, grew up in a environment that nonstop preached to judge by actions, and not words nor appearance, and now they, we, seem to be suffering for it at times. When or if it happens to me, I just tell the person "hey man, I'm sorry you are having a hard time, I hope things get better for you dude."
>I don't need a white man swinging around a laser sword in the title roll of a science fiction movie to get up in the morning and use my time wisely
That's because media already panders and heavily focuses on white representation by default, you disingenuous fricktard. You don't even have to think about it because media by default already does it for you. You're surrounded by white media.
Yet funnily the second minorities in the past ten years have started to get far more parts and there's open talk about better representation and equal opportunity employment in media, white people flip the frick out and can't stop crying how wrong and bad it is. I thought representation didn't matter and you could enjoy anything no matter what the actor's race was, motherfricker. What suddenly changed? Oh right, it went from comfortably marginal tokenism you could ignore to actually minorities and women getting their own big budget shows and movies and headlining mainstream shit and now you feel uncomfortable because a straight white man isn't dominating everything.
>getting far more parts
At the expense of white media. That's the problem you dunce. That has never been the case before, White guilt is reaching higher levels that are unprecedented.
>At the expense of white media
Hollywood historically has refused to do or adapt PoC media for ages. There's countless stories how people whose job was to go through scripts were assigned to put anything that's "urban" i.e. it was about black people, to its own separate pile from everything else because studios would only do couple of token black projects because "black doesn't sell". It's always been a self-fulfilling prophecy due to bias that anything that's not about white men can't do well, and when a white male project fails well then obviously it was something else except the white male lead aspect that made it fail. It was the wrong director! The wrong white guy we cast!
Meanwhile the second a woman or non-white related project fails, the racist bias always makes the problem be explicitly the fact that it was a woman/PoC project. It can't ever be that maybe it was just a bad movie with a woman or PoC lead. But white men always get endless Mulligans and second tries.
>PoC
nta
stopped reading there
>Hollywood historically has refused to do or adapt PoC media for ages
That hasn't been true since at least the 70s- 80s where Blaxpoitation films has been fully permeated across various media.
NTA but Blaxploitation's roots aren't actually in the mainstream Hollywood industrial complex; the genre sprung up out of independent films, a lot of which were by people on the east coast.
To clarify, I'm using Hollywood here as a metonym for the American film industry.
That's kind of overly reductionist isn't it?
It's meant to be a figure of speech. Are you going to raise hell over metonyms as well?
I'm just saying that blaxplotation isn't "Hollywood". Not just because a lot of it was made outside of the location, but because it wasn't a part of the greater industry. It was its own independently funded thing. You can use your metonym if you want but you're lumping a genre defined by being made by and for outsiders into the greater thing they were outside of.
>>it is hard to sell Superman
It is now, yes. They wouldn't have tried doing Val Zor or Calvin Ellis or whatever it is they're supposedly doing had Zack Snyder not poisoned the well so badly. Now they need a way to make it as clear as humanly possible that future Superman projects aren't going to be Snyderman and WB in its infinite lack of creativity probably just went with the most visually different option.
Not that I see the problem. Nobody complained when an Asian played Clark Kent Superman. But a black AU version that's not even the same guy is a deal breaker?
>had Zack Snyder not poisoned the well so badly.
Same people were saying Singer poisoned the well with Superman Returns a decade ago
>Same people were saying Singer poisoned the well with Superman Returns a decade ago
As much as I like the airplane rescue scene they weren't totally wrong then either.
Are you angry because those didn't sell as much to be gargantuan franchises or are you angry because there weren't any black films being made when it clearly wasn't the case?
Too stupid to actually respond besides bait, but I will say, you're part of the reason why people think those who argue against race changes are secret racist
It's not bait, I'm not even white, I'm fricking latino. You're the reason why blacks should always have being black as their identity in fear of 'acting white'.
Oh it's not bait? Then you're unironically stupid then.
>You're the reason why blacks should always have being black as their identity in fear of 'acting white'.
Ironic that given most of my life I was mocked or clowned for "acting white". Since this is not bait I'll explain my original post:
How do you get from mine or the other anon's post that we're somehow angry? It's right to argue fricking semantics in a conversation that requires it. Imagine having a college level discussion on a physics or chemistry and you're casually using words interchangeably? All it does it muddy up the waters of the conversation and show that you don't either know what you're talking about or don't reallt care to have a straight conversation.
Again, you're just proving why
>you're part of the reason why people think those who argue against race changes are secret racist
Actually have a conversation without resorting to make stupid claims the person is must some how be angry or spiteful when it comes to black media.
Let's get back into topic, this argument chain started with this
and I was against anon's claims that
> Oh right, it went from comfortably marginal tokenism you could ignore to actually minorities and women getting their own big budget shows and movies and headlining mainstream shit and now you feel uncomfortable because a straight white man isn't dominating everything.
Not in its entirety no, all I know about it beyond the film itself is that it bombed in the box office.
>Not in its entirety no, all I know about it beyond the film itself is that it bombed in the box office.
You might want to consider watching it in full. The film is in part an allegory for minority roles in early films.
>The film is in part an allegory for minority roles in early films.
I only ever take those things seriously in published papers (less dramatization/exagerration and what not) than entertainment media but I'll take your word for it.
I'm going to assume you're a different anon (cause it's really weird to switch back again after digging yourself deep), but I appreciate sticking to the main thing.
>You're disagreement
That's great anon, but my whole point was that if you're going to have a specific discussion about a specific thing don't use words interchangeably is all. As for reading that anon's post since his first and the green text, I think there's a disconnect in understanding how one's or race or group view media about them and in turn what that means overall. Though this is going to spill in a larger conversation that I genuinely feel I don't really have time for nor the chops (or anyone here really) to get into.
Though I'll at least give you kudos for actually trying to engage in a conversation without derailing it.
I'm not angry at all. I'm just saying that both
>Hollywood refused to do black movies
and
>Blaxploitation was a popular genre
can be true. Because a lot of blaxploitation projects weren't a part of the hollywood ecosystem. They were their own separate thing that started up outside of the hollywood ecosystem and then got picked clean by the suits once it was clear that there was an actual audience for it.
They can be, I'm refuting their strict mutuality in the history of American cinema in the 70s onwards WHICH even ramped up in 90s DESPITE the black-dominated gang wars literally ramping up. It's not a stretch of even an iota of imagination to say that American media as a whole caters to blacks more than any other non-white demographic.
It actually works in cycles. Hollywood chases a big gimmick, be it westerns or blockbusters or what have you, then audiences get sick of that, and in order to entice people back into theaters they start hiring the black writers and directors to figure out a new wave. Westerns went into Blaxploitation, which gave way to the blockbuster, and then now we're in that "blacks save the theater" phase again and thanks to the internet you're just more hyper aware of it.
Because remember, those gang wars you're talking about? They also caused a film boom. Dangerous Minds, New Jump City, films like that where a part of the 90s "urban market catering".
>Because remember, those gang wars you're talking about? They also caused a film boom.
Yeah, that's what I was talking about.
>Nobody complained when an Asian played Clark Kent Superman. But a black AU version that's not even the same guy is a deal breaker?
Bad faith here anon.
A) Lois & Clark: The New Adventures of Superman was made in the mid 90s and finish in '97 (IIRC). The world was vastly different during the 90s and before the turn of the century. The conversations surrounding race, politics, media has changed significantly (for better or worse). So I'm not sure why you're pointing to this show as if the conversations we're having now would've been the same in the 90s. How many 90s comic kids were arguing about their character not being portrayed accurately as a white character?
B) This brings up the point that good writing will surpass creative decisions. If your show has a few characters there were race changed but the story is still a 7 and up consistently, there's really not much to complain. Like sure, Superman's Asian this time around but the show was still a hit in its own right
C) >But a black AU version that's not even the same guy is a deal breaker?
This means more today in the context of how shows are made and viewed than in the 90s where there would be more leeway in this sort of thing I imagined
>The world was vastly different during the 90s and before the turn of the century.
Yes anon, the decade of the LA race riots was totally chill and copacetic.
>How many 90s comic kids were arguing about their character not being portrayed accurately as a white character?
Probably the same amount honestly. Just harder to do so because internet was in dial up.
Again, this is still bad faith, why?
>LA Riots
Why are you bringing this up? IN what context does this have in the worlds of comics and their respective adaptations? You want to talk about the race issues? Fine, you're in your right to do so. I like how you highlight the parts of the points that can just be misconstrued like you're doing here. In the greatest sense, the way we interact with the media of now was vastly different from the 90s. The fact of the matter is that you're trying to compare two things from vastly different time periods without acknowledging how the world was at those times.
>Probably the same amount honestly. Just harder to do so because internet was in dial up.
You can't be serious here anon. So you're meaning to tell me THAT THE WAY WE TALK ABOUT Cinemaphile MEDIA IN THE 2010s and 2020s IS THE SAME WAY DURING THE 90s? I have to capitalized this because the obvious answer is no, especially since almost all the 90s movie adaptations had the right races.
>Why are you bringing this up? IN what context does this have in the worlds of comics and their respective adaptations?
The gang violence, particularly the New York City gang violence of the 80s and 90s was hugely influential in the comics of that era. That's why The Dark Knight Returns is so dystopian. It's why Static's origin focuses on in a turf war. Hell, it's the opening sequence of the first Ninja Turtles movie. Comics and comic book adaptations rip stuff from real life all the time. You know Joker includes stuff about the 1981 NYC Garbage Strike?
The way we interact with media and media interacts with the world has always been symbiotic.
I agree in my OG post I mentioned how characters are an extension of the writers psyche and their personality. Their experiences ultimately result in the character they make. I can get behind that, my issue is that anon was just bringing up things that were true but weren't relevant
>The way we interact with media and media interacts with the world has always been symbiotic.
Yes, and it's important to acknowledge the world when it was made. Which ultimately explains why no one gave a shit about a Biracial superman in the 90s and why people don't want a Black AU Superman now
People didn't know or notice Dean Cain was part Asian
>Nobody complained when an Asian played Clark Kent Superman
tv quality was so bad in the 90's that you couldn't even tell
NTA but in this case it's right to argue semantics because they have meaning here. If you're going to call about Blaxploitation and Hollywood (and its history), it's best if your clear with your words and not simply saying one thing (when you mean the other, especially in the context of the conversation they aren't actually that all related or correct to use interchangeably)
>That hasn't been true since at least the 70s- 80s where Blaxpoitation films has been fully permeated across various media.
Blacksploitation movies largely had to operate outside of the normal studio networks, dude. And once studios started getting involved, those same independent creators quickly found themselves not getting any jobs anymore. Rudy Ray Moore famously had to self-finance his Dolemite movies.
And the studios still kept saying "oh black/non-white doesn't really sell" well to the 2010s. Why do you think it's only now that we have stuff like Black Panther, Shang Chi, Crazy Rich Asians, etc. suddenly get made so close to one another? Because studios finally started to think blacks and other minorities (and CHINA) had money to spend so maybe we should try to target them.
>Why do you think it's only now that we have stuff like Black Panther, Shang Chi, Crazy Rich Asians, etc. suddenly get made so close to one another? Because studios finally started to think blacks and other minorities (and CHINA) had money to spend so maybe we should try to target them.
That is an extremely reductive way in seeing these all-or-nothing multicultural push in recent times. Shaft is quite literally a cultural milestone. What you're ASKING for is to mold mainstream into liking raceswapped shit when it clearly is not the case via a flood the shelves tactic.
>Shaft is quite literally a cultural milestone
So fricking what. Black people have had success, that doesn't change the fact Hollywood and other media entities have kept gatekeeping and thinking blacks couldn't have wide appeal, and always just treated people like Eddie Murphy, Will Smith, etc. as exceptions to the rule, rather than any type of moment to realize that hey maybe people can watch movies about the black and other non-white people.
Shaft was also a low budget independent movie, not something Hollywood willingly produced. And it didn't push Hollywood to make tons of black lead movies for mainstream masses. All it did was make them finance few projects, like the second Shaft movie, and when they failed to do as massive number as the first one, they basically gave up. That's Hollywood. If something isn't immediately a guaranteed success every time, they go back to thinking everything has to star and be about a white man.
Hell, when Hollywood tried to reboot it with SLJ twenty years ago it was shit because they just tried to turn the franchise into a dumb action blockbuster movie completely missing the point of the character because Hollywood can't think or sell anything that isn't inside a very narrow box of things they're used to.
>thinking blacks couldn't have wide appeal
You never factored that might be true in any sort of way? It's not like Hollywood (American cinema) fricking stopped black actors from acting.
>It's not like Hollywood (American cinema) fricking stopped black actors from acting.
Apropos of nothing but have you ever seen the movie Cat's Don't Dance?
>Shaft is quite literally a cultural milestone.
Fun fact, in the original draft screenplay for Shaft he was written as white because, despite being black in the original novel, the writer created the character thought that Hollywood execs wouldn't fund the movie otherwise. It was the director, Gordon Parks, that decided to take the risk on casting Richard Roundtree as the eponymous detective.
>Hollywood historically has refused to do or adapt PoC media for ages.
Huh?
Hollywood has been trying to adapt manga, anime, and Japanese video games for like 2 decades now, the frick are you talking about?
In fact, now that I think about it, Hollywood is NOW trying to adapt South Korean media as well, with stuff like The Last Train to New York.
unfortunately
Would it interest you to know that asians don't count anymore, hence the creation extension of the acronym of POC to BIPOC?
Yea, it turns out that all that "POC" shit is just bullshit for grifters to use as a way to make more money out of grievance politics.
It's even funnier because even back in 2013 you had Hollywood types trying to remake Oldboy, and even funnier than that, it was an established famous black director, and even funnier than THAT is that it was absolute fricking shit that had 0 respect for either the South Korean film or the original manga.
Maybe it was revenge for butchering Snowpiercer on behalf of the French?
I think a better question is whether or not Spike Lee gives a single frick about French films.
>Hollywood has been trying to adapt manga, anime, and Japanese video games for like 2 decades now
A drop in the bucket examples, where they were just trying to jump on the existing video game/anime craze, and the IP already being about white characters, like Resident Evil, or where the asian perspective/background was either dropped or minimized as they recast the central characters as white, like they did with Ghost in the Shell and Dragon Ball.
And then when those projects mostly bombed, they stopped trying for awhile. And those are just Hollywood looking at successful IPs and trying to exploit them lazily by forcing them into a pre-existing Hollywood blockbuster mold. They are not trying much to actually adapt PoC content where the central characters remain non-white. For every Joy Luck Club or Memoirs of a Geisha you get stuff like Keanu Reeves' 47 Ronin, etc. where it has to make a white actor the lead.
>And those are just Hollywood looking at successful IPs and trying to exploit them lazily by forcing them into a pre-existing Hollywood blockbuster mold.
So in other words, they don't adapt much of that PoC content because it's not successful.
So what's your issue?
My point is that Hollywood doesn't care about actually adapting PoC material properly, it only bothers to adapt something if they think they can change it to be a typical white lead action blockbuster vehicle. Because that's what their biased perspective is. So trying to say "no bro, they totally adapt non-white material!" it's a complete misunderstanding of what is being discussed here. Hollywood barely bothers to this day to go and adapt material where non-white actors are the focus. So any actor who isn't white basically has to rely on bit parts for most of their career if they didn't change actor ethnicities in an adapted property. It isn't some woke agenda to ruin shit to destroy whiteu, it's usually a pragmatic move to try and get better representation and diversity due to studios not funding shit that isn't predominantly white due to studio biases.
>My point is that Hollywood doesn't care about actually adapting PoC material properly
Hollywood doesn't care about adapting anything properly, again, what's your point?
>adapting PoC material properly
You're adding a racial element to this. Hollywood doesn't care about proper adaptions period.
>You're adding a racial element to this.
Wait, so you don't think it's already racial for Hollywood to take a non-white IP and cast it with white people?
Any contemporary examples?
That gambling movie, 21, with Kevin Spacey in it from like fifteen years ago cast the movie largely white, despite it being based on real people who were largely Asians. GitS with ScarJo from five years ago had most of the central cast be white people, all asians were side characters with limited screen time.
Fun fact Ghost in the shell was made by a guy who does human horse porn and black on white gangrape doujins.
See, I'm inclined to see this more as a star power thing than a racial thing (though it was deemed controversial regardless). On a semi-related note what do you think of Kurosawa's Seven Samurai being remade into Sturges' The Magnificent Seven?
Well see that's the type of adaptation where it works because you're taking a core story but changing context and setting to fit a US production and you mostly maintain the themes and general spirit while doing your own thing with it. Same way Leone doing his take of Yojimbo or Lucas ripping off Hidden Fortress for Star Wars works.
Another factor just boils down to having a larger pool of white actors to pull from. It's also the reason they often have to do Memoirs of a Geisha thing and cast Chinese people as Japanese characters, just because the number of Japanese actors in America is so small.
Would it be racial for Hollywood to take an Asian property and cast it with black people?
black people nothin, they whitewashed the mandarin and the ancient one
granted the mandarin might have been a less than stunning depiction but they could have james hong or somebody for one last hurrah like Big Trouble
oh but all is forgiven with asia because Shang-Chi and the Forgotten Rings
> they whitewashed the mandarin and the ancient one
That was because of China IIRC
>oh but all is forgiven with asia because Shang-Chi and the Forgotten Rings
More just that Asians don't really give a frick since the American adaptations are pretty much universally inferior.
>Not in the same type of context, because Hollywood has a long history of taking stories about non-white people and just casting it with whites, thus preventing actors who would be of the accurate ethnicity from getting jobs.
I hate to tell you this anon, but that also applies to Asia.
Plenty of anime and Japanese productions just cast Japanese actors to play white characters, black characters, Chinese characters, etc. etc.
Hollywood has that long history because up until the 1970s America was 85-90% white.
>Plenty of anime and Japanese productions just cast Japanese actors to play white characters, black characters, Chinese characters, etc. etc.
Yeah, and I think they should be able to cast those parts better. Japan used to have several white and black actors make movies in the 50s and 60s, albeit in small supporting roles. It's very stupid they can't do the bare minimum today when there's more foreigners working and living in the country than after the war.
>Yeah, and I think they should be able to cast those parts better.
Man, thank god people like you will be largely dying out within the next 30 years.
No idea where some American frickface gets off trying to tell some other country what they should or shouldn't be doing with their own media.
If you could do it before, why can't you do the bare minimum today? Kinji Fujasaku was able to shoot an entire tokusatsu movie in 1968 Japan with an all white cast. Japan ought to be able to find and cultivate gaijin talent when they have to cast roles for non-japanese parts.
>If you could do it before, why can't you do the bare minimum today?
Because it's their media in their country and they can create it however the frick they want.
You don't get a say in that, as you are not Japanese.
As an American, you don't understand this, and then have the gall to wonder why so many people on the planet hate your guts and want you dead.
Asian pussy > Gaijin talent
They get it from being American. Everything must resemble America to them. I say yhis as a bitter Canadian who has to deal with NPCs who forget we live in Canada and still complain about American politics all the time.
As another leaf get over it. We have no culture or identity as a country. We're just not!america.
I'm a Newfie we unironically had our own capeshit lol. I don't see Americans kissing fish to become a true New Yorker either. Jokes aside you're pathetic have a nice day
Cope harder, newfie. Our country lost all it's meaning long before either of us were born.
There is meaning you just can't see it because you listen to Americans too much.
How does one tell a Canadian accent apart from American accents?
t. bong
Newfie accents are so much different than a stereotypical Canadian accent that I can't even explain it because there are so many variations. I'm a shut in and townie so I can't even understand baywhops even in my own family. I don't know any actors with one to give you an example.
Not in the same type of context, because Hollywood has a long history of taking stories about non-white people and just casting it with whites, thus preventing actors who would be of the accurate ethnicity from getting jobs.
Depending how the adaptation was done and what the story is it might be entirely fine to cast it with black or white actors if the setting was changed to the US.
Look on the bright side at least black women didn't have to suck Weinstein's dick to get rich
>At the expense of white media.
So are israelites white again for purposes of this conversation?
Lord of the Rings isn't white media?
Not entirely. There are countries outside of Middle Earth.
Stop being disingenuous.
yeah, elven lands
>a literal tumblr homosexual seething about white people on Cinemaphile
Bitch, just make your fricking original series then. If the fricking original and white people are so bad, then why do you want ot take part in it? Geez, frick all of you morons, you have no right to demand anything from 'muh evil white people'; they created the series, they decide how they want it to go, which race they want the characters to be, etc. Nobody is stopping you. And nobody here is saying that it's bad to have a person of another race in the media, but it is obviously odd and awkward to see a character that is shown to be of a certain race being played by an actor that is not from that race.
>Bitch, just make your fricking original series then.
NTA but there are like eight threads on the board right now cheering that the discovery merger is killing all those original series.
Well, i am unfamiliar with those series, so i cannot state my opinion about it, but if a series is good and it doesn't make it all about race, then it shouldn't have anything to hinder it's chances of success.
>Bitch, just make your fricking original series then.
Kinda hard to do that when audiences won't watch anything that isn't a pre-existing IP and studios historically have refused to fund such projects or underfunded them so they could never afford to do shit like white shows.
Then blame studio and marketing.
I don't remember anyone being mad about the Phantom Stranger being changed from a israelite to an ambiguously brown person.
I don't remember much outrage about Michael Clark Duncan being the Kingpin in the Affleck Daredevil.
But I'm sure someone's got the image of all the redheads turned black. Post it up, anons.
The thing is, it's not because they're out to do anything good. They're not out to take something good and make it better. The new Game of Thrones has nothing good going for it so they're using outrage marketing. Same for Rings of Power. It's all about fake woke garbage.
It seems kind of useless to change a characters race instead of just making a new character
>its a person I identify with
>now it's not
yeah?
If Daredevil was created today instead of 1964, people would cry "forced representation", Prove me wrong
No he would be a black gay cripple
not really, blind warrior is one of the most celebrated disabled archetype in fiction
Not really, I can think of plenty of anime, manga, and films about badass blind people, including a manga about a blind swordswoman.
It's almost like the issue is how theses characters are written in American media nowadays.
Cry some more, everybody respects that shit, because the concept is cool in itself, and guess what, it's not forced because it was something new in western comics when it was created; it didn't pick something that already existed and forced it to become something else just for the sake of representation.
>"justice is blind"
>fearless acrobatic crime-fighting lawyer who cannot see, cannot judge by appearance, must seek absolute truth in and out of the courtroom
it's called THEMING. besides, how the frick can you pander a comic book to the fricking blind??
>how the frick can you pander a comic book to the fricking blind??
By releasing braille or descriptive language audio versions. You'd think Marvel would've tried doing it at least once as a gimmick but they've never once attempted it.
>Prove me wrong on a hypothetical
If Daredevil was created today instead of 1964 people would cry "another white man", Prove me wrong
Because it doesn't stop there. Representation is gay. At least, Black Mantra is still an butthole. Isaac is still using hus evil slavery magic.
>why do people act like "changing a character race" is a big deal?
They don't. They only act tlike that when it's a white character being changed.
go back moron.
imagine changing the race of Hitler
It's pandering and lazy.
Because it is a lazy corpo move. If the corporations cared about black character we would get projected based on them. Where is a spawn reboot? A static shock movie? A heroes for hire movie? It's getting the recognition of a character while also getting woke points if they were a white male. It's lazy while also being disrespectful to the source material, a real slap in the face for the fans. The only good race swap I seen was micheal clark duncan as kingpin,because the man had the build for it.
bruh i don't even know. tonight i was playing mtg with my friends and they started a big ass rant on the fact that for the mtg x lotr collab they made aragorn black.
hell and tarnation
>It's just France, why can't I make everyone African?
>It's just Israel, why can't I make everyone Mongolian?
Because tribalism is a human response to attempts by outsiders AND insiders to take advantage of a population. Outsiders will try to conquer/enslave your people through war or trade, insiders will try to seize power and then enslave, genocide, or corrupt your society's laws until outsiders can overthrow you. Bigotry, tribalism, and racism have always been defensive mechanisms but your corrupt leaders don't want to have an honest discussion about why they want to flood the USA with the lowest caste mexicans.
So you're fine with changing Black Panther into a white guy, then? Since it apparently doesn't matter
This. It wouldn't be acceptable, and it shouldn't. Changing ANY well-stabilished character's race just for the sake of it makes no God damn sense. If we were talking about a community theater, some musical or a school play, then it'd be fine, but on something that is going to be seen by millions of people all over the world, they should at least try to be faithful to the visual aspect of the thing they are portraying, because people want to see what they know.
If that's the case, why change it at all? See there's fallacy in your logic.
>Let's add what is best a tertiary concern (representation) but make easily and objectively verifiable and announce its importance.
The brown M&M test only works if the people you are testing aren't aware of it. Funny enough race swapping becomes the brown M&M test in a different fashion.
Look, people. let's calm down for a minute here.
I understand the thought that it shouldn't matter because the character is not only it's race, and that's right, the character is usually more than that. But the way the character look is important. It gives visual identity to the character and the series. People will always associate a character to the image they know.
I'll tell a story. I remember when i was a kid, we all didn't care for a character's race. We played whatever character we thought was cool. You had white people wanting to play as black, asian, indian characters... same for other black or latino people i played with. It didn't matter.
This story illustrates one thing: that you don't need a character to be of your same race to find them cool and see part of yourself on that character. We just thought the character we were playing was interesting for us.
I understand that it's nice to see yourself represented, but i think it must feel natural, otherwise it either becomes something done out of pity, or it becomes just something to shock the audience, and make them do exactly this we are doing here on threads like these. It makes people treat each other differently based on their race, which is wrong.
This story of 'black dont sell' is a lie. There are a bunch of well-loved black characters out there. MiB would be much, much worse if it weren't for will smith, Blade would be nothing if it weren't for Wesley Snipes, Same for Matrix without Laurence fishburne, etc. Good stories and characters will always sell well, regardless of race. Now, when you make it all about race, then it tends to flop because the depth of your character and story becomes paper-thin.
You say that it shouldn't matter and I agree with that but the industry clearly doesn't. Hence the voice actor-race debacle.
because it's a cheap gimmick. you claim it's not a big deal but if the character can stand on its own skin color never needed to be changed
race doesn't matter to you, right? if not, you won't care if white superheroes start wearing dreadlocks, right?
imagine thinking you can get a wider audience by appealing to the lowest common denominator among people who don't actually give a shit about the medium, who will get bored and lose interest anyway?
what if, and i need you to really listen here.... what if you did some actual fricking research and found the various superheroes of color that already fricking exist in multiple IPs and focus on them?
could it be that you're fricking clueless about comics and cartoons so you automatically assume that there are no other characters besides white ones?
Narcissism. Most whites are narcissistic. They don't know how to sympathize with a main character unless it looks like them. Then they project their inabilities onto all other races.
ironic
Can someone actually cite an example of a major black character being turned white, live-action or otherwise? I can't think one at the top of my head.
i heard that patrick stewart played othello
which is pretty fricking stupid, since the play itself specifically talks about othello being black, and women lusting for his big lips, which patrick stewart does not have
All black cast except for him I think
yeah wow if that's true that's fricking moronic
Did he at least put make up on? I'm implying that this is theater, right?
if he put make up on, that would be blackface and racist
It doesn't really matter as it turns out.
Oh wait nvm lol
Him being casted as that was the point lmao.
Patrick Stewarts Othello was deliberately race swapped as a plot point. Anthony Hopkins played it straight
Is that Bob hoskins in the back?
Actually yeah. He played Iago
Colonel Tigh from Battlestar Galactica (2008)
Another character, Boomer went from black to Polynesian too.
because changing the race of white character into a minority is the writing equivalent to patting a minority on the head and telling them they aren't worth shit so take this and shut up
this, it says that even though there was probably a perfectly good superhero written to represent a particular class and/or creed, that IP was not profitable enough
at best, it was done out of some kind of reaction to negative imagery or wrongspeak in some previous issue and this is being done to smooth away any ill will
sure, the IPs are fluid, there aren't any restrictions. black spiderman makes sense, there's a lot of different people in NYC and they could all accidentally get bitten by radioactive spiders and they didn't even have to force any awkward uncle ben situation. wait, would it be racist to have a black uncle ben or just an issue of intellectual property?
If you made Uncle Ben black it would've been too on-the-nose that you're simply blackwashing characters (boiling frog and whatnot).
i think its boiling rice, but yeah i think i get what you mean
I like it if it an interesting story or POV could be told
For example: Black Spiderman or unironically a White Black Panther, you could get great fricking adventures from those premises alone with the right writer
The shit i hate is obvious forced virtue signalling shit like if they made the fantastic four black, thats fricking moronic and makes no sense, why would 4 black people go into outerspace to investigate some gay space rocks? Thats too unrealistic and clearly hamfisted
White Panther has potential but how does Black Spiderman change anything?
Maybe if it were set in a wholly different city or country but not much changes if you make Peter black. It's why Miles sucks.
I shit you not when I say that it gives him a more urban flavour (hence Miles Thor being like THAT). I don't agree with it but I don't speak for companies
Man I loved the PS4 spiderman so much that I bought Miles Morales and it literally ends with a black guy saying 'HE'S OUR SPIDERMAN!!' But Miles has more family and money than Peter it was so weird. Also in hindsight it's weird how there were no israelite NPCs
reparations
we need a israeli spiderman
saul spiderman
He shoots black web now.
A black teenager using his newfound powers to wipe out crime infesting his community in new york should be easy money, but Bendis is moronic
I could go on an entire tangent about Miles but yeah, thats my thoughts on this
All in all the original vision of the creator should be respected, if you all made a character and someone else adapted your series to the big screen and changed their race you would be fricking pissed
I can't be attracted to anyone who isn't white or is ugly. I want to go back to beautiful white people only.
GOD, i blocked that out of my mind
Surely you don't mind if Black Panther becomes a white dude, then.
>design is a key part of the character, blacks look too different so original look is destroyed
>blacks don't fit in almoust any context as anything but slave, otherwise it's immersion breaking
>i hate joggers, many people here hate joggers, and to be honest, even liberals do
It's not exactly wrong to assume that if someone looks like you, you'd empathize with them more. But American writers have taken that to a lazy extreme. They'll take a character who was historically white and turn them into a different race and now I'm meant to impose the struggles of my race on this character automatically. It's a pisspoor way to create an emotional throughline from character to audience.
I don't mind characters like Miles Morales or even America Chavez, they are new characters. They keep trying to push Miles as the new spider-man, but all he makes us do is remember Pete. Hell, even Kaldur'am from YJ is good, he's a new character and he serves a thematic purpose. And some race swaps are done because that particular actor is the best for the job (DD03 Kingpin/MCU Nick Fury)
But race-swapping an established character for no reason at all, to generate buzz for your dying series/run is bullshit, these homies are not gonna suddenly pick up a comic because ShitAss: Ass-Shitter is suddenly black.
Then every black characters can be white washed without any issue.
Oh, wait...
Why change a character's race in the first place?
As much as I don't like it, it's obvious it's because they are ashamed that the source material is whites only
The real sin here is casting a black Phantom Stranger and not even ATTEMPTING to get Keith David
Shouldn't the Phantom Stranger be israeli?
This is bait, but, frick it I'll take it.
There are characters where their race does matter, and characters where race doesn't matter.
Ant-Man's race isn't important. It doesn't matter who he is as long as he's a scientist who srinks.
Luke Cage's race matters because the character is heavily steeped in how black people are treated by white society.
That sets (and has set) a shit precedent where non-whites have to always act like their race is a pivotal part of their character. Some people legitimately don't want to accept that a phenomena of race exceptionalism exists, this time for American minorities.
So which Characters could you raceswap and it wouldn't change a thing?
As an ex-mormon I find this hillarious because one of the likely possible origins of Phantom Stranger is that he was an angel who didn't side with either God or Lucifer and was punished for his neutrality.
In the Mormon faith up until 1978 Black members weren't allowed prieshood ordination or participation in the highest ordinances of the church.
The reason? Their black skin was the "mark of Cain" and they were under a curse from god since they were decended from that cursed bloodline.
But mormonism believes that everyone is to be judged for their own sins so how does that make sense?
Because in the war in heaven the spirits that would become black people were "fence sitters" and their neutrality condemed them to be born under the curse of black skin.
So in other words, this change to Phantom Stranger lines up perfectly with the doctrines of racist old bastards like Brigham Young.
Changing a character's race is a big deal because you are destroying the "reality" of the character and the universe. People in real life don't change races. Fictional characters shouldn't change races. It's as simple as that. Some people understand this and some people do not.
because it's blatantly obvious that it was done for some progressive brownie points. You never ever see a popular well established character suddenly get changed to be Chinese or something, it's always a shade of brown
If it's not a big deal then make Wakanda a white civilization.
It's really, really, transparently obvious why it's done. You know this, and are being disingenuous.
I want you to be completely honest here: if they were changing the race of a character that is not white, would you actually give a frick like you do with white characters?
yes
Yes, absolutely and I was with Hellboy.
minorities deserve their sloppy seconds, Bruce Wayne will be black too when Batman becomes unprofitable