God damn I just remembered Naruto, it's worse than every Cinemaphile example under the sun
I know they mention in the sequel how nobody can bring Sasuke/Kabuto/Orochimaru to justice (and that they're still potentially useful assets), but seeing them just go on like frickall happened is insane
>God damn I just remembered Naruto, it's worse than every Cinemaphile example under the sun
Except Catra.
Catra didn't even get house arrest like Orichimaru and, I can't believe this is a comparison I can make, Orochimaru tried to STOP the world ending threat even when he would've been fine if it happened. Between Catra and the rapist snake child experimenting bodysnatching crazy motherfricker, only one of those two looked at reality about to get fricked over and said "I'm going to try to prevent this".
On earth justice is whatever is politically expedient. If it's convenient, you will be killed on suspicion, if inconvenient, simply accusing you of a crime will be a crime.
I like redemption arcs. If the show has a character that is a strong candidate for getting "Vegeta'd" they usually end up being my favorite, even if it doesn't happen.
I feel like more people would be okay with redemption stories if they didn't, you know, suck ass.
They were all the rage in the 00's because the kids from the ninties had Vegeta getting brutalized until he learned his lesson, Dinobot getting philosophical and then they got Avatar doing Zuko well and they thought "Woe, redemption stories are actually really great!"
And then we got the current crop of writers who somehow missed why they were successful at all, you had Sugar being like "Hey yeah he's gonna sing a song at you and give you the highest position you could want so, you know, thanks for almost MURDERING THE ENTIRE PLANET." And then we have Noelle or whatever she renamed herself after the boob surgery going "Hey we're just gonna give her that thing she went fricking bonkers for all series so you know, thanks for almost MURDERING ALL OF REALITY."
I mean goddamn both Spinel AND Catra got shown what they were doing was crazy and would kill people and they fricking doubled down but instantly once their ability to kill people are taken away they just assumed they must've learned their lesson. Like Catra didn't give up shit, she fricked up so hard the place she lived exploded in fire and her only choices were "Either help the good guys or be a mindless puppet forever" and she was somehow rewarded for picking option A? Like Spinel gets sung at while she's literally destroying a town full of people with 0 indication she's not murdering them by the truckloads but once she loses that by uh, fricking up until it explodes, she suddenly gets rewarded for giving up then when she literally has nothing left?
Who besides the absolute worst of people who wish others would just 'Get over' the shitty and nightmarish things they do would ever think these are redemption stories instead of just the writer being bottom of the barrel in talent and ability? What would a kid if children actually watched this shit learn from this?
Hordak legit gave up all his shit to blow up Catra out of rage and he didn't do thing one in the damn war. His greatest enemy invaded his home and he hid in his lab like a little b***h boy he was. Then when Catra learns that she's probably going to nuke reality she reasonably figures out that Hordak is going to give a hard no on that one. So what does she do? Lies to him so he can go through with maybe nuking reality. Then when Reality is mid-Nuke, he doesn't want it to keep going, but you know what melted faced motherfricker just had to try to make damn sure reality got nuked? Genocide the lesbian cat.
Hordak better be damn lucky he can pull the "Just following orders from my brain controlling super boss" shit because Catra would have a real hard time explaining why she superseded her boss to literally wipe out reality and murdered the Queen doing it. Or, she would, if the writing wasn't written by a diversity hire who couldn't actually put together a coherent story to save her now nonexistent breasts.
Even a competent writer would still show Hordak in a cell for you know invading shit and living out his life with the purple haired autist in a womans prison shaved to her skullcap, but Catra would be dead if anyone with a brain was allowed near this show.
Right, because if there's one place the dumbest fricking morals should be allowed, it's kids shows. Don't think about it, it's for kids, but also we're groundbreaking because girls kiss we want both.
If kids are confused by the cartoons mentioned here and reality at any point they have way bigger problems then friendship redemption arcs these things are stupid as frick when you think about it for five seconds. Show them actual educational television or make them read a fricking book if you actually want to teach your kids shit, better yet, fricking talk to and raise them. These shows are dumb pure entertainment shows not like Sesame Street or Mr. Rogers with morals and lessons necessarily.
>If kids are confused by the cartoons mentioned here and reality at any point they have way bigger problems then friendship redemption arcs
They wouldn't be confused, they would be being told you can literally do anything you want and hurt anyone and only say you're sorry and get away with it.
The ONE FRICKING THING you do not tell a stupid child. >Show them actual educational television or make them read a fricking book if you actually want to teach your kids shit
Alright then frick off with this "We're opening minds" shit, you can't have both. Either admit your shit is dumb, not important, not meant to be taken seriously and will not matter to anyone, or deal with it when we point out your stories are dumb as frick. In fact, we should do that anyway so kids understand that these writers are just really awful people, mentally, and shouldn't be copied. Solves two problems. >m. These shows are dumb pure entertainment shows not like Sesame Street or Mr. Rogers with morals and lessons necessarily.
So, again, shut the actual frick up with how important and groundbreaking they are. Don't wanna do that? Deal with it when people shit on it and say kids shouldn't watch it.
>deal with it when we point out your stories are dumb as frick.
Of course they're dumb as frick, they're children's cartoons. If I want something not dumb as frick or important or groundbreaking I don't watch children's cartoon shows.
Magic isn't real either. If they watch this I will say "nothing in this show is real and isn't a model for life" if I want to teach them something. Most feature fight scenes that would kill the characters and child protags being child soldiers is that also okay, should they learn that they can use magic and fly and won't get hurt fighting giant monsters as 5 year olds? It's all stupid.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Well at least you agree they should shut the frick up about the virtue signaling, that's a start.
No but they'll probably hurt people a lot and expect that they can just say they're sorry and it undoes all the extremely shitty things they've done, or worse in Catra's case do ONE nice thing and expect that everyone's just friends with you again no matter what you did, including you know exploding someone in a void of death.
For the kids, you should be ruthlessly mocking this thing, talk to them and point out how bad the writing is, make it clear that anyone who thinks like that is a bad person, use it as an example of what's not okay and how not to live. The only use these things have is to be shit on to teach people the writers were awful people and they should avoid it.
>including you know exploding someone in a void of death.
Yes, because that's something kids are doing all the time.
Kid tries to apologise to other kid they bullied and unexpectedly get rejected? Oh no! End of the world! Write a strongly worded letter to standards and practices.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Or just, you know, make fun of it. Kid sees it? Laugh your ass off and talk about how bad the writers are. Just make it clear this is every bit as unrealistic as the transforming magic. That way when the kid grows up and sees people calling it important or meaningful they know to laugh at those morons too. Writer says she's "Giving representation and meaning"? Kid knows to laugh because it's just dumb writing.
Honestly shitting on it and making fun of it is the best thing you can do, solves every issue except making people who like it feel uncomfortable. And really, they like garbage like that, are they worth holding back for?
2 years ago
Anonymous
>Just make it clear this is every bit as unrealistic as the transforming magic.
I mean it'd be pretty embarrassing to make fun of a kids show for this too.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Why? We make fun of adult movies for being stupid all the time. If you've never made fun of a bad movie with your friends you probably didn't have many. And really, making fun of stupid shit is fun, kids love it. They'd probably be energetic they could join in and make fun of the dumbest shit with you, what kid doesn't like to make fun of stuff?
So go wild! Point to the cat lady and point out how utterly moronic it all is, point out how shitty the writer is as a person, the kid will have a ball and you'll get to join in making it clear this is just awful shit written by awful people, who loses in this?
2 years ago
Anonymous
>And really, making fun of stupid shit is fun, kids love it.
Yeah kids. Adults shitting on kids things is a surefire way to tell everyone your a manchild.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Right, which is why everyone hated Mystery Science Theater. Real bomb, that one.
Totally not just you.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>Mystery Science Theater
Mystery Science Theater was known made fun of old movies. Making fun of shit from your own childhood is going to get you different looks from admitting that you care enough about currently airing kids shows to make fun of them.
Do it in your own times but bring it up at work and normal adults will wonder why on earth you know enough to care. Do it around kids who might even like the show not matter how bad, and you'll look like a right dick. Even if they think your cool now they'll look back and wonder what the frick was wrong with you.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>Mystery Science Theater was known made fun of old movies
And also kids stuff from the previous decade. >Making fun of shit from your own childhood is going to get you different looks from admitting that you care enough about currently airing kids shows to make fun of them.
From who? You seriously think people don't make fun of kids movies? >Do it in your own times but bring it up at work and normal adults will wonder why on earth you know enough to care.
Damn you are pretty insecure. >Do it around kids who might even like the show not matter how bad, and you'll look like a right dick.
You have never met a child, they love to make fun of things, even things they like. >Even if they think your cool now they'll look back and wonder what the frick was wrong with you.
Jesus you're literally imagining entire futures based around this, the frick is wrong with you?
2 years ago
Anonymous
>And also kids stuff from the previous decade.
Yeah, previous.
>You seriously think people don't make fun of kids movies?
Movies. Movies they took their kids to see, not media that they had to search out and watched enough of to understand and give a shit.
>you're literally imagining entire futures based around this, the frick is wrong with you?
You're not the the first person anon.
Look I can't stop you anon and you won't be the only one. However I've never met someone who does this more than off handedly who doesn't end up barely tolerated by everyone around him. Though that may be down to the personality type.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>Yeah, previous.
I feel like you're being intentionally obtuse about this and don't know how best to make fun of it. >Movies. Movies they took their kids to see, not media that they had to search out and watched enough of to understand and give a shit.
In this context you're literally watching it with a kid or have watched it with a kid. Or, since you are clearly deeply insecure about yourself and afraid that someone might make fun of you for it, just say you saw it on twitter or watched it with a kid. Problem solved, everyone's onboard with you now. >You're not the the first person anon.
The first person to what? > However I've never met someone who does this more than off handedly who doesn't end up barely tolerated by everyone around him.
Jesus and now you're making a whole saga around how people are going to react, the actual frick is wrong with you and why are you imagining so many pretend scenarios about this? I mean you know that's all in your head, surely. None of what you're imagining is going to happen, almost certainly, you've created a silly ass narrative based around someone mocking a kids show to a child, complete with them growing up and looking back on those times with negative feelings.
Again, the actual frick is wrong with you?
2 years ago
Anonymous
>Or, since you are clearly deeply insecure about yourself and afraid that someone might make fun of you for it
Do you really think this is normal to even want to do? Do you think people only follow social norms because they're insecure?
>None of what you're imagining is going to happen
I don't know what to say. It's happened, it happens all the time. It sounds like it will happen again.
That your apparently not aware of that is worrying.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>Do you really think this is normal to even want to do?
Yes? I've never met a single person that didn't enjoy laughing at stupid media, not one. Do you not even just, barebones here, watch youtube or something? I mean even if I didn't have friends to make fun of shit with I'd be able to see that people make fun of anything and everything on a livestream. The only way I'd avoid it is if I focused on media that catered to the 'Everything is offensive' crowd like Kotaku or something. >Do you think people only follow social norms because they're insecure?
Ah yes, those notable social norms of "Dude you can't make fun of that media, it's different".
Totally normal rules of social engagement, you gotta have limits on not making fun of stuff you saw from other people.
>I don't know what to say. It's happened, it happens all the time. It sounds like it will happen again.
Jesus frick man, you got some serious issues I'm in no way capable of dealing with. Just, how do you type this and not see the problem?
You're mapping out entire narratives in your head and swearing up down it happened and will happen again and it's just genuinely unsettling. Just real chilling shit.
>That your apparently not aware of that is worrying.
Yeah I'm not aware of the imaginary possible scenarios that might occur from me making fun of a dumb kids show with kids or others.
That you're not aware that this is completely normal and not something to be deeply insecure about regarding other people is very worrying. Just don't map out a story in your head for what you think will happen, sorry "Has happened" and you'll be fine. Or at least stop imagining future scenarios to console yourself when it doesn't happen that it's totally gonna happen later just you see, something.
2 years ago
Anonymous
That's a lot of online interactions you listed.
>it's just genuinely unsettling. Just real chilling shit
How very secure.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>That's a lot of online interactions you listed.
I mentioned two, and one of them was "You'd have to seek this out."
Is two interactions a lot to you? It would explain some things.
>How very secure.
Hey I'm willing to admit when shit creeps me out. I'm secure enough in myself to say "Wow, I find that unsettling" without worrying how that makes me look.
Yep, you hit it on the head. The biggest thing with Zuko, Vegeta and Dinobot are that the writers didn't do "UwU, the boy did nothing wrong".
The arcs mainly focused on how these characters were flawed, disliked (quite reasonably) by the good guys, and then they actively needed to work at their redemption. Simply feeling "sad" about it didn't suddenly make everything okay. They needed to be better
Yeah, early on in the show one figures out
that Zuko and Iroh are decent people caught fighting for a bad cause and you want them to find their way out of it.
Season 2 also works brilliantly because it's all about Zuko coming to develop empathy and concern for those that are not of the Fire Nation and how they are not spreading their progress and prosperity like the propaganda says.
Vegeta, and DBZ in general, is actually an interesting case that most people underestimate. People like to boil it down to "Goku make friend with bad guy" but there's a larger symbolic framework at play.
See, the Z fighters are, or were, villainous people. Goku was a psychotic little moron in Dragonball, bump on the head or no, and he knows he accidentally killed the only person he ever loved, and has no real way to deal with that. Yamcha was a Mad Max raider using super strength to shoot and beat innocent travelers for supplies. Krillin was a washout and a cheat, Tien was a vicious butthole who would happily extort you out of your last penny. Launch was a bank robber. Ox King was a fifteen foot tall fist of the north star character who used the martial arts taught to him by nobler men to carve out a kingdom. Piccolo burned down the farm of the family who took pity on him in a fit of autistic bitterness, and he was the reincarnation of a genocidal demon.
When these characters, and Goku in particular, look at a villain, part of them wants to believe that this person could make a change because it validates THEIR change. Goku sees Vegeta as far more similar to him than is actually the case. They all have this "idea" of Vegeta, the Vegeta they hope exists because it makes them feel better about themselves, it helps them forget about the past. They try to force Vegeta into this shape, without ever understanding just how fricked up of a person he is, and he tries too. They sit him down in a house like a normal man and give him food and hey vegeta you even get to frick the hot girl aren't you happy isn't this better? But no amount of comforts and blue haired blowjobs and peace is going to resolve the fact that this is someone who had spent his entire life almost exclusively being brutalized, and brutalizing others in turn, to the furthest extent possible, and that life just ended over night.
Vegeta tries to conform to this idea, mostly because he felt a pang of humanity when he got his son impaled, but it doesn't go well. He sits there like a frustrated zoo animal for years after everyone thinks he's "a good guy now" and tries to swallow his ever increasing distaste for his life. He doesn't feel strong, he wants a connection with his son but he has no idea how to do that, and he never actually made any amends for his misdeeds, or even had to admit he was wrong in anything other than his callousness towards his own blood.
So one day, he just fricking snaps. He just does literally what he would have done for his entire life, he acts like the vicious, petty space pirate he always was. And it makes him miserable. That's the key. He can't be a murdering pirate, and he can't be a good man. He realizes too late that it was already way too late to go back to what he used to be, the degree to which he was still evil made it impossible to live a good life, and the degree to which he had softened had made an evil life intolerable, and he's thrown away anything good about what he had.
So he kills himself.
Could Vegeta even consider to be redeemed? The biggest gripe for me is when he willingly took the M and blew up part of a stadium full of people. It's not that he values lives or has a particularly large moral code, it's being constantly around other people who will keep him in line if he steps out, like a dog on a loose leash. Also he was totally ready to ice Broly 2 Super movies ago, so still no qualms about killing people who don't deserve it
>it's being constantly around other people who will keep him in line if he steps out, like a dog on a loose leash
That was defied and proven wrong when he "Beat" Goku and still willingly chose to sacrifice himself, knowing full well the dragonballs couldn't bring him back and he'd go to hell without his body for all he did. As far as he knew nobody could stop him, nobody could challenge him now that he finally "Beat" Kakarrot, but it didn't matter. He hit his peak and realized he didn't want to be up there anymore. He did love his child, he did love Bulma, and if he didn't act right then they'd actually die and he couldn't live with that knowing he's the one who caused it. He even thinks these exact things in his final moments.
Vegeta HAD to win that fight because otherwise, it would be like you said. He didn't choose to be good, he was tugged back on a leash and put in line. Now, he was the Freeza of his world, the strongest being and free to do as he wished, and what he chose to do was stop the one thing that could hurt the people he cared about. He's not "Good" wholly, I don't think he knows how to do that yet and probably never will. He just never lived that life and doesn't know what to do with it now that he has it.
But, ultimately he found a reason to at least try, and for all his faults he does try to be better.
>He did love his child, he did love Bulma, and if he didn't act right then they'd actually die and he couldn't live with that knowing he's the one who caused it
I'd always assumed he was constrained by some sort of weird moral mode. The acknowledgement that he could only defeat Goku after basically selling his soul to the devil, and how the deal had potentially disastrous consequences you could blame on him. He admits to caring for his family, but even evil villain characters can have loved ones. When Goku sacrificed himself to save the world from Cell, he did it for the planet, but Vegeta's sacrifice seems to still be self-centered(my family, my rival and honor) in the end
I don't see him as "evil" at the end of the series, but he isn't a hero either
>I'd always assumed he was constrained by some sort of weird moral mode.
See, that's the thing that the final speech seemed to disprove. Because in there three things got highlighted. One, that he admitted his pride was foolish and he had lost himself to it. Two, that he would lose his body and not come back via dragonballs. And three, he specifically said he did this for Trunks and Bulma, and yes even Kakarott. You can argue if he's actually a hero or not, that's up for debate, but regardless it showed that he's finally confronted his two biggest flaws, his pride and his self centered way of looking at things, and he finally overcame them. Nobody made him do this, not even his own pride, just the thought of his child and... babymama, I guess? I dunno if they're married. Point is, it wasn't self centered for the first time in his life, he found something he was willing to give himself up for. It's not just that he has loved ones, it's that after winning he finally understood he was wrong, and did something actively to make it right.
That's what more redemption stories need. They get what they want, and they learn where it all went wrong.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>disprove
Not him, but I hate that word when talking about a character giving a monologue. People cant be trusted to give an honest appraisal of their thoughts and feelings. We should pay attention to what a character says about themselves, but not take it as gospel.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Gotta disagree, if we can't take his inner thoughts in his final moments and the actions seem to back it up to be genuine, then we literally can't take any moment in any character as genuine and as close to truth as they're capable of. Vegeta didn't say his pride was folly and he did it for them out loud, he thought that to himself as he was literally dying and as far as he knew wasn't coming back. If that's not him being his most truthful about his thoughts and feelings, then when?
2 years ago
Anonymous
Everything a character says and does is colored, you don't take anything at face value. That doesn't mean it's all bullshit, but you never *start* looking at a characters thoughts and speech as gospel.
I mean we have a great example of this where Vegeta has his first real moment of clarity when trunks is shot, and his brain, even in an attempt to be honest, reels through half a dozen contradictory thoughts as he buckles under the strain of processing the situation.
2 years ago
Anonymous
My only point was that it was consistent with the actions he was currently doing. Sure, it's easy to say "I'm actually doing this for you, my wife(?) and kid" but show selfish stuff beside it, but in that moment Piccolo has just outright told him you're not coming back, you're not keeping your body, you're going to hell and then you're going to be purified and just gone. And, despite that, he not only goes through with it, he does so without hesitation. His actions backed up his words, essentially.
I just don't see the meaning in trying to disregard his own inner thoughts consistent with his actions to ascribe a secret selfishness to them. As much as that notion CAN be disproved, it was. There's really nothing more he could've done to hammer it home.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Seems to me like he's trying to find some meaning in the end of his life, to contextualize this act in as positive a way as he can, but he is absolutely suicidal. If he'd been able to kill Buu conventionally he probably still would have flown into the sun or just retreated into the depths of space to wallow in self hatred.
Piccolo is basically pointing this out.
"Go ahead and do it, but it doesn't actually change anything about you, this isn't really noble."
This from someone who really did have a meaningful sacrificial end to their life, at one point.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>to contextualize this act in as positive a way as he can
But he's still not using his sayian pride or own prowess in it, meaning he is ascribing the importance of the act to Bulma and Trunks specifically. So, regardless, he at the very least has progressed enough to hold them of higher importance than his own pride and selfishness. >If he'd been able to kill Buu conventionally he probably still would have flown into the sun or just retreated into the depths of space to wallow in self hatred.
That doesn't square with what happened when he came back to life. It's not like he ran off in a huff after they won. >"Go ahead and do it, but it doesn't actually change anything about you, this isn't really noble."
That's not what he said. I thought subs were different than https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yvx4R56Mx0 so I looked it up but it's basically 1-1, he just says that Vegeta's lifetime of evil means he won't get to keep his body. He doesn't say this isn't noble, he seems to imply the exact opposite when Vegeta accepts what's going to happen.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>But he's still not using his sayian pride or own prowess in it, meaning he is ascribing the importance of the act to Bulma and Trunks specifically. So, regardless, he at the very least has progressed enough to hold them of higher importance than his own pride and selfishness.
I agree, I've got no problems with that.
>That doesn't square with what happened when he came back to life. It's not like he ran off in a huff after they won.
I would say that's kind of an apples and oranges thing. It's one thing to make a decision when the bodies are probably still raining on the city you had a magic hissy fit in, and come to the same conclusion after actually successfully killing yourself, having some time to see that doesn't solve your problems either, and then being restored to life to do good works.
>That's not what he said. I thought subs were different than https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yvx4R56Mx0 [Embed] so I looked it up but it's basically 1-1, he just says that Vegeta's lifetime of evil means he won't get to keep his body. He doesn't say this isn't noble, he seems to imply the exact opposite when Vegeta accepts what's going to happen.
Just a miscommunication, I'm suggesting that is the *point* of Piccolo's role there, and what he's saying. i.e., he's there to express the notion "This doesn't really change anything."
Well, he never really *had* a code, so any constraint on him is mostly self constructed. He'd always lie cheat and steal, and Saiyans treat their families like shit. he planned on beating Freeza by using someone else's magic, after all.
Still, I think his blowing himself up, as much as he might have wanted it to protect trunks, was mostly about himself. There really was nothing left for him, he'd burned every bridge and thought he'd never be happy.
I'm not a huge fan of Super, or anything past the Cell saga really, despite the poignant end of a character arc for Vegeta, but let me say this.
Since... basically going on a killing spree and then committing suicide and being revived, Vegeta does seem to be making a better attempt at being at the very least, someone who takes care of his family and friends. Seeing that going back to what he was before would only make him miserable may have had some kind of positive effect in the long run, in a weird way.
He spends more time with his family, he's less surly and miserable (though he's still a moody shit) and he tries to take the most "responsible" path if not the most decent one. Some healing of his spirit has happened, at least.
Vegeta in the DBS films was willing to swallow his pride and embarrass himself at length for his family and not even think that much of it. He didn't like it, but he bounced right back whereas old Vegeta seethed for years over every slight. Similarly, he's now the one right in line with Piccolo suggesting "muh pragmatic thing" in every situation. He thinks things through and tries to do what he can at least figure to be the most right thing.
This suggests he's "healthier" anyway, if you want to say he's not really "good" past his love of his family I'm not going to die on that hill.
It's Goku in Super that's kind of gone a little bonkers.
I would argue as of Super Vegeta is fully redeemed. The end of Z saw him finding joy in things beyond others suffering, but Super actually shows him regretting the things he did in the past and even acknowledging that the saiyans were kind of buttholes who had it coming when they were wiped out.
The man literally learned how to punch life back into people, you can't face turn harder than that.
Why specifically would it be bad to end reality, from a utilitarian point of view? Like intuitively I would be against it but what harm is done if everybody just ceases to exist with no warning?
>with no warning?
They literally saw themselves melt into light.
Surely even a utilitarian understands the concept of making people see a twisted reality before erasing them and understanding the negatives that comes with it. Also, it would've only been a pocket dimension, so genocide with the understanding that the rest of the outside universe would keep on living.
Essentially you're asking the harm of a hopefully fallout free atom bomb on a deserted island. Sure, they get wiped out with only a second to contemplate themselves dissolving into light, but the rest of the world gets to keep on living.
Yeah I haven't watched She-Ra sorry, I didn't know about the specifics. It's just something I think about occasionally and I thought the Catra thing would be a good springboard to get people's thoughts
Yeah I haven't watched She-Ra so I don't know the specifics sorry. It's just something I think about occasionally and I thought the whole Cat-Ra thing would be a good springboard to get people's thoughts
The worst kind is when the "redeemed" die anyway. Part of their redemption should be facing the people they've wronged, and asking for their forgiveness, or at least trying. Dying in a heroic sacrifice is easy, living with what you've done is harder and way more narratively boring.
We need some justice. Enough of this making the most awful people imaginable suddenly a good person at the last moment. I miss when main villains were pure evil.
>I don't mind them being a good person, just as long as part of their reform is turning themselves in to face justice. I mean actual prison sentences.
You know what? Frick it, no.
I don't watch these goofy fun cartoon shows with magic and shit to need to see bad guys go to fricking prison, this isn't a True Crime show for frick's sake.
I agree that a lot of redemption arcs are bad but a lot of pure evil villains are also badly written and boring and so are their defeats. And I would rather something kind of dumb but fun like Vegeta than sitting through magical singing rocks going to court and talking about paying bail that's just fricking stupid. It's a cartoon. They could do a better arc without doing that and depending on how ridiculous the cartoon is them literally face heel turning as a joke is also just fine.
Your complaints are with shitty writing but I never want this shit treated like real life I would watch fricking VTubers for that Jesus H. Christ.
By "prison sentence," I mean any kind of sentence from a justice system. Imprisonment/confined exile just seems like the most common sense route any system would take. So long as the reformed villain has to pay back the debt to society they incurred endangering it.
If they can do that and make it entertaining sure but if I'm watching this kind of shit I just want it to be fun. I care more about it being fun than moral calculus. No real people use doomsday weapons evil magic or crazy scifi mad science tech to blow up all of existence it's all stupid anyway. If it's compelling or funny that's fine with me, a lot of old anime redemptions were dumb like that but who cares if it's fun to watch.
This. If it's not entertaining, why bother. No sensible person says "I love this story because it conforms with my sense of morals and justice" because that would be moronation. They say "I love this story because it's fun and engaging". That's all there is to it.
If half of these 'redemption' complainees had their way, we'd be going back to seeing villains randomly being struck down by bolts of lighning lest the audience not know that they shouldn't do bad things.
>If half of these 'redemption' complainees had their way, we'd be going back to seeing villains randomly being struck down by bolts of lighning lest the audience not know that they shouldn't do bad things.
Yeah I'm not watching a fun show to watch someone lecture to me about morals and that's actually what's wrong with shit today. These things are dumb I watch them to have fun. I'll read a book about moral philosphy or something for a lecture on morals or nonfiction or at least not a stupid kids show with really ridiculous fight scenes and stupid shit.
Oh the child characters start fighting with magic and so an adult character comes out and lectures to the audience that kids should not fight or use violence and also magic isn't real and then all the characters sit down to eat broccoli and then brush their teeth for 30 minutes what a great fricking show.
>Yeah I'm not watching a fun show to watch someone lecture to me about morals and that's actually what's wrong with shit today.
Boy I wish writers actually did that but they sure as frick don't seem to be able to not lecture you despite you saying you hate the idea of them lecturing you.
Say who wants to rewatch Stevonnie get hit on by someone the show legit presents worse than the giant ass space conqueror? Oh the stupid fun of learning that making passes at someone in a dance club is just wrong, people! Who wants to see fun space adventures when you can have Sadie learn about how her relationship with a guy is bad for her?
Yeah nah give us the actual fun stupid shit or shut the frick up.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Or just watch another show.
2 years ago
Anonymous
That's my secret, I can make fun of it and still just watch something else.
Shit did you never hear of Mystery Science Theater 3000? Huge ratings hit of just some guys crushing on the dumbest shit. Including, and this is going to blow your mind, childrens shows! Yes, Mystery Science Theater did just that and relentlessly shit on kids shows of the 50's, 60, 70's and beyond, and people loved it. People replicated it, a lot. I mean a fricking lot. Like there was a whole Youtube industry of making fun of kids shows, with tens of millions of views per episode. An entire site with 20+ reviewers all shitting on kids media thrived.
I don't know how to tell you this but you can watch other things and make fun of the fact that Steven Universe had a whole ass episode about a space captain in a stolen ship crying about how he's not missed instead of going on space adventures you say you want. Can't have it both ways, b***h.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>Say who wants to rewatch Stevonnie get hit on by someone the show legit presents worse than the giant ass space conqueror?
I mean not me. I find that shit even more insultingly stupid. You are preaching to the goddamn choir here. Frick that shit even harder it's even worse.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Thank you. Who wants to see White Diamond taken down by a damn kindergarten level taunt? Was Sugar just stalking the local chucky cheese and got her mind blown and had to make that her ending? Who the frick wants to just watch Spinel give up after the thing explodes and everyone just shrugs it off?
Where's the fun in this? Where's the big finish where they do something either crazy to redeem themselves or crazy in the other way? Where's the fun "Hey, Zuko here!" moment of trying to make things right? SU doesn't want you to take it seriously but they'll just offhandedly mention this big ass event where someone steals a spaceship, and instead spend an entire episode on the trials of Onion Kid? Stop preaching and have fun already. Or just make fun of bad writing, really all you can do.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Exactly. Dinobot didn't just redeem himself, he went out in a giant blaze of glory where he solo'd the entire army in crazy ways to do the right thing. You think if Blue and Yellow didn't do the same Vs White people wouldn't have loved it? Instead it was the lamest takedown ever. Kids shows should at the very least be fun.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>Who wants to see White Diamond taken down by a damn kindergarten level taunt?
Oh you're underestimating Sug.
You know she was sitting on that comeback since she was like, twelve, in some argument with her mom or whatever, and she never got the chance to say it. People like her carry around these cringy "mic drop" moments in their heads for DECADES and can't stand when they dont land with the force of an atomic explosion.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>Say who wants to rewatch Stevonnie get hit on by someone the show legit presents worse than the giant ass space conqueror?
IMO for me it's one of those things where the more realistic part will seem worse, the interplanetary space warlords thing was too cartoonish to trigger any moral reaction. Sort of like how people feel Gendo Ikari is a worse parent than Ragyo, despite the latter being physically abusive and even a molester. Cause it goes so far into villainary that it becomes detached from real life. But tons of viewers can remember a time their parent was distant, cold, and emotionally manipulative like Gendo
What's with the binary options? >Normal boring justice and the antagonist goes to prison >Defeat the the villain but live with the fact that you sometimes have to find ways of coexisting with your enemies because you can't redeem them but killing them would cause bigger problems >The villain's evil plan fails but their still way more powerful than the hero so they'll just have to be ready to fight again >The villains straight up wins >The villain was right >The villain serves their sentence but a couple of seasons and their out now, maybe they retire >The villain is defeated bit not caught, by the time the protagonists bumps into them again they've moved on from villainy >The villain commits suicide >Sometimes a good old hoisted by his own petard with fatal consequences >The villain gives up and goes home
In order to receive a redemption arc, the requirement shouldn't be morality. It should be whether you're annoying. An evil but fun and interesting character can join the good guys, but if they're evil and annoying, they deserve comeuppance. Especially if they're smug. Smug, annoying villains need comeuppance. Humble, fun villains can do whatever.
Simon got fricked over by writers who were perfectly fine redeeming women who have done much worse. I'm not even talking about Grace, Amelia's done things a thousand times worse than both combined and she gets a slap on the wrist.
>Simon and Grace were equally culpable.
But they weren't, Grace was the leader and kept lying to him about what was happening and Simon only ever believed what Grace told him - beliefs that she kept pretending to uphold until the last second. Grace only repented because she got Hazel and talks from Amelia while Simon got jackshit.
>888
Kek that's funny. Anyway.
It's not just that, it's up to a writer to make his world merciful or ruthless.
Grace saw that she did wrong to the point her Tape as Hazel told her that Simon was not the one who bring the idea of kill Nulls, her actions? Unfold some little birds and tell Simon that she is not responsible for his problems like if the whole point of a redemption was not to make amends for your mistakes.
Simon continued to breaking bad, his actions? Lock up someone who lied to him twice and put a dictatorship over some children, who hypocritically wanted to make them victims to us when in book 2 and the beginning of book 3 it was seen that they were more than happy to kill and torture denizens.
One was saved by a deus ex machina and the other died from his worst trauma (which he got from another woman that the series simply forgave)
I'm not telling you to forgive Simon or Kill Graces, or at least not both at the same time, just want to highlight how reducing everything to she good he bad is simplistic and an example of how manipulable morality is. people who don't even want to see the context.
All characters in your pic suck for different reasons >Spinel is the personification of "sad backstory excuses your actions" and Future proved how one note she was beyond that >Catra was one of the main baddies for 4 seasons and then the last season pretends she was a minor villain, glossing over her actions. Even disregarding how she doesn’t deserve any of the love she got and pretending she did, the way they do it is an insult to her character and the rest of the cast, functionally destroying the message they tried to tell >Simon was a cult victim who was killed in a story that expects us to sympathize with the cult leader. That’s pretty much it.
The real problem is modern animation writers don’t know how to write morally complex stories without shoving the blame to one person or group instead of demanding personal responsibility. But it’s not alone in this, comics have been doing it for a while, so have movies and games. It’s a trend of saving or getting rid off characters based on how much the writers want them around
Simon was irredeemable because he passed the point of feeling empathy. Catra and Spinel were fricked in the head, but we saw moments where they looked at what they were doing and clearly seemed to understand that they'd become something rotten, even if they needed help to turn back. Simon just doubled-down in believing everything he did was right (very Cinemaphilener of him). He killed Tuba and when Hazel was bawling her eyes out like a kid that'd lost her mom, he just looked annoyed and then wanted to move along regardless or whether or not she could keep up. No ability to empathize. When you reach the point where a traumatized kid gets no reaction from you, you're basically unsalvageable. I know currentyear views it through a few different lenses, but I don't see anything wrong with some shows going "you can frick up really badly and still be redeemed" while another show goes "you can become so broken there's no way to fix you."
>Simon just doubled-down in believing everything he did was right
You mean like how Catra in season 3 tried wiping out reality and her response to that was in season 4 to escalate in trying to take over the planet and kill the child of the woman she murdered and burn her whole kingdom to the ground? You know, the Catra that finally got a talking to by Adora and said "Well then I'm going to bur MORE of it!"
And then we have Spinel who stopped the drill, realized what she was doing was wrong, got her feelings hurt and then doubled down on trying to murder an entire planet worth of people to the point she detonated her own drill that everyone told her would cause massive devastation if it happened. That it didn't happen is literally just a plothole, it spewed liquid death next to an ocean but somehow none of it got in the ocean at point blank range of the detonation, and she knew this exactly. She doubled down fighting Steven, tripled down detonating the drill, and didn't give a shit about the people she just met and saw down there as she had wandered around with Steven. She knew they were living people, she had been in the concert watching them have fun, and she dismissed them all trying to kill them because she felt hurt. Nobody made her do this, hell the drill was off when it happened, just like the portal was off when Catra doubled down on risking the world for herself and she double trippled down when the world was literally falling apart.
But THEY showed a sad scene maybe so that all doesn't count and you might be a bit biased being awful.
I've gotta agree, nothing Simon did was on the level of literally fighting tooth and nail to genocide an entire reality. And that wasn't even her moment where she realized she was wrong, she kept going. She almost killed everyone, did kill someone, and then she tried to kill Glimmer. She murdered her mom and then tried to burn her home to the ground, and we're supposed to believe in season 5 they'd be cooing over how cute they were? She-ra fans are some broken people.
Catra had several moments of regret. She powered through them because she told herself she needed to, or because she was hurt and furious over Shadow Weaver. But there was no moment where she looked at a mourning kid and felt nothing but annoyance. That wasn't Simon when he was going through huge mental strain, he'd faced some inconveniences but no major emotional shakeups. That was just Simon showing what sort of person he was normally. And normal-everyday Simon had unfortunately become someone that looked at a traumatized kid and felt no empathy.
>But there was no moment where she looked at a mourning kid and felt nothing but annoyance.
Yes, there was, when she tried to kill Glimmer who was mourning the mom SHE KILLED
Correct in that she had just tried to burn down Glimmers home as she was still mourning the mom she killed, rather than being someone who cared about but was unreleated. Oh, and then she did it again. And again! Three times in season 4, she even mocked her 2 of the three, to her face. I mean just cold ass no regret mocked her, to her face.
So, yeah, it was different, in that it was a thousand times worse than Simons because Simon didn't make fun of her before trying to kill her. He "Looked annoyed", totes different.
2 years ago
Anonymous
And they didn't even bring it up in season 5, they straight up had a "Don't mention Angela's name" rule even when her husband is a main character now.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Like you'd think rule 1 of writing a redemption is having Catra at least say "Sorry I killed your mom". Zuko had to go on a whole ass saving Sokka's dad thing to fix that one, and it's not even his fault he got captured.
>But there was no moment where she looked at a mourning kid and felt nothing but annoyance.
Yes, there was, when she tried to kill Glimmer who was mourning the mom SHE KILLED
Yeah and there were people acting like it was crazy Glimmer tried to kill her in that scene, the reveal one in the secret base. She literally mocked Glimmer to her face and they just had a funeral for her mom just a couple days ago, because Catra killed her. Specifically Catra. Literally nobody else made that happen, not even Hordak. Hordak flicked a switch he thought was safe and Catra watched reality melting and tried to murder everyone, she just mostly failed. If you try to blow up a building and someone heroically sacrifices themselves to save everyone, you still fricking blew up that lady. And then she makes fun of her daughter? It's not like she didn't know, there was a very public funeral and she was well aware she was gone. This was Catra with nobody ordering her and nobody behind her, nobody made her do this or coerced her, then she killed someone and literally never felt regret for it. You know the one scene she feels regret? That Adora yelled at her. I'm serious, go watch for yourself, she never once feels bad for killing someone and then, in command of the Horde, decides she's going to fricking burn down her home and kill her kid.
But Simon was mean that one time so you know it's fine if SOME genocidal murderers get redeemed.
>Simon was irredeemable because she hurt one kid and left her friend for dead >but the abusive c**t who tried to destroy reality and the psycho who attempted global genocide had to be saved because they were "fricked in the head"
Big news moron, Simon was also fricked in the head. And his crime count is 10 times lesser than the other characters. He’s not even the most morally reprehensive character in his own show, that’s Amelia and Samantha, and the show treats both of those as female queens.
Why do people act like Simon did the worst thing ever by killing Tuba when he and Grace wheeled hundreds if not thousands of nulls together before that? I just don't get why he's the bad guy when Grace did stuff just as bad as him.
>Why do people act like Simon did the worst thing ever by killing Tuba when he and Grace wheeled hundreds if not thousands of nulls together before that?
The viewer never sees Grace kill a null directly. That's basically it as far as I can tell.
I like how comics give the faux redemption to some villains.
They're forced to work for good or they get killed.
Sinclair got the best of two worlds because he was fully redeemed at the end and so even Mark let him go.
Feel like cartoon shows should focus more on irredeemable villains: Adds a little more realism and interesting concepts to the animation media.
I'm getting both bored and annoyed of villains always being redeemed even when they've done something that would have gotten them the death penalty here in our world.
Also: It teaches children that some people are just straight up buttholes.
I just wish shows could get away with more emotional weight. Like the "good guys" actually losing and the "bad guy" "wins," but its not necessarily a hollow victory or played off comedically. More like a slow burn where little by little the antagonist begins to show regret as his world slowly crumbles around him, displaying denial, grief, anger, etc.
My autistic headcanon for infinity train is that Grace ended up dying (the deus ex machina origami birds were fricking moronic) during her fight with Simon. The death of Grace, her absent leadership and what she mentioned about the "nulls", and Simon going insane are all a catalyst for the downfall of the Apex as members start to defect, leaving Simon to rot alone on the train, mentally.
Frick redemption, frick this white-black morale, no one is right and everyone is right. I don't wanna see sappy brainwashing characters into mindless gg sidecicks same as I don't wanna see mindless triumph on stupid evily evil. Only gray morale, only harsh and uncaring reality mixed with spare glimpses of love, faith and honour.
If cute girl
>redemption
Else
>grim justice
One day, hopefully, the female character will get brutally murdered while the evilman will go away scot free.
Found any toons like it yet?
Not in Cinemaphile but Naruto blew the frick out of its main girl antagonist and evil probably rapist snake antagonist got to go be a family man.
God damn I just remembered Naruto, it's worse than every Cinemaphile example under the sun
I know they mention in the sequel how nobody can bring Sasuke/Kabuto/Orochimaru to justice (and that they're still potentially useful assets), but seeing them just go on like frickall happened is insane
>God damn I just remembered Naruto, it's worse than every Cinemaphile example under the sun
Except Catra.
Catra didn't even get house arrest like Orichimaru and, I can't believe this is a comparison I can make, Orochimaru tried to STOP the world ending threat even when he would've been fine if it happened. Between Catra and the rapist snake child experimenting bodysnatching crazy motherfricker, only one of those two looked at reality about to get fricked over and said "I'm going to try to prevent this".
>main girl antagonist
Who, Konan?
Kaguya.
The one they pulled out their ass at the last second, moon b***h
Kingsman the Golden Circle
Back when Anon storytimed Astroboy every female villain got wrecked.
Dragon Ball
Bejita and A21
So Avatar?
We should do more Elktaur style execution
>redemption or grim justice?
Both.
>for nearly destroying two worlds, stabbing a child, and inventing racism, we sentence you to...
>COMMUNITY SERVICE
Community service for the rest of his maimed, unnaturally extended life. From the looks of it, he's not living in any kind of comfort.
Sure but Earth justice would've been a lot different, we've meted out harsher punishments for less
On earth justice is whatever is politically expedient. If it's convenient, you will be killed on suspicion, if inconvenient, simply accusing you of a crime will be a crime.
>for nearly destroying two worlds
Okay, that was bad.
> stabbing a child
It was just Marcy.
>and inventing racism
See, he did do some good things too.
Worked for Saltbaker
He didn't actually kill any named characters so it's cool
Life long
Yes, his life is pretty long
>Littering? You’re going away for a few days Mr. Krabs
>his even meaner dad who's also the moon made him do it
And he finally fought back.
He deserved much worse and it his special case it would be possible to deliver the punishment.
I miss Simon so much bros.
You know even if he didn't die, the season still would have ended with no new canon material of him ever again
Well yeah of course. I mean I would miss him either way.
I like redemption arcs. If the show has a character that is a strong candidate for getting "Vegeta'd" they usually end up being my favorite, even if it doesn't happen.
I feel like more people would be okay with redemption stories if they didn't, you know, suck ass.
They were all the rage in the 00's because the kids from the ninties had Vegeta getting brutalized until he learned his lesson, Dinobot getting philosophical and then they got Avatar doing Zuko well and they thought "Woe, redemption stories are actually really great!"
And then we got the current crop of writers who somehow missed why they were successful at all, you had Sugar being like "Hey yeah he's gonna sing a song at you and give you the highest position you could want so, you know, thanks for almost MURDERING THE ENTIRE PLANET." And then we have Noelle or whatever she renamed herself after the boob surgery going "Hey we're just gonna give her that thing she went fricking bonkers for all series so you know, thanks for almost MURDERING ALL OF REALITY."
I mean goddamn both Spinel AND Catra got shown what they were doing was crazy and would kill people and they fricking doubled down but instantly once their ability to kill people are taken away they just assumed they must've learned their lesson. Like Catra didn't give up shit, she fricked up so hard the place she lived exploded in fire and her only choices were "Either help the good guys or be a mindless puppet forever" and she was somehow rewarded for picking option A? Like Spinel gets sung at while she's literally destroying a town full of people with 0 indication she's not murdering them by the truckloads but once she loses that by uh, fricking up until it explodes, she suddenly gets rewarded for giving up then when she literally has nothing left?
Who besides the absolute worst of people who wish others would just 'Get over' the shitty and nightmarish things they do would ever think these are redemption stories instead of just the writer being bottom of the barrel in talent and ability? What would a kid if children actually watched this shit learn from this?
Man you can't mention Catra without Hordak, they better have confirmed that he spends the post-series on trial for war crimes or something
Hordak legit gave up all his shit to blow up Catra out of rage and he didn't do thing one in the damn war. His greatest enemy invaded his home and he hid in his lab like a little b***h boy he was. Then when Catra learns that she's probably going to nuke reality she reasonably figures out that Hordak is going to give a hard no on that one. So what does she do? Lies to him so he can go through with maybe nuking reality. Then when Reality is mid-Nuke, he doesn't want it to keep going, but you know what melted faced motherfricker just had to try to make damn sure reality got nuked? Genocide the lesbian cat.
Hordak better be damn lucky he can pull the "Just following orders from my brain controlling super boss" shit because Catra would have a real hard time explaining why she superseded her boss to literally wipe out reality and murdered the Queen doing it. Or, she would, if the writing wasn't written by a diversity hire who couldn't actually put together a coherent story to save her now nonexistent breasts.
Even a competent writer would still show Hordak in a cell for you know invading shit and living out his life with the purple haired autist in a womans prison shaved to her skullcap, but Catra would be dead if anyone with a brain was allowed near this show.
Watch some adult shows anon.
Right, because if there's one place the dumbest fricking morals should be allowed, it's kids shows. Don't think about it, it's for kids, but also we're groundbreaking because girls kiss we want both.
If kids are confused by the cartoons mentioned here and reality at any point they have way bigger problems then friendship redemption arcs these things are stupid as frick when you think about it for five seconds. Show them actual educational television or make them read a fricking book if you actually want to teach your kids shit, better yet, fricking talk to and raise them. These shows are dumb pure entertainment shows not like Sesame Street or Mr. Rogers with morals and lessons necessarily.
>If kids are confused by the cartoons mentioned here and reality at any point they have way bigger problems then friendship redemption arcs
They wouldn't be confused, they would be being told you can literally do anything you want and hurt anyone and only say you're sorry and get away with it.
The ONE FRICKING THING you do not tell a stupid child.
>Show them actual educational television or make them read a fricking book if you actually want to teach your kids shit
Alright then frick off with this "We're opening minds" shit, you can't have both. Either admit your shit is dumb, not important, not meant to be taken seriously and will not matter to anyone, or deal with it when we point out your stories are dumb as frick. In fact, we should do that anyway so kids understand that these writers are just really awful people, mentally, and shouldn't be copied. Solves two problems.
>m. These shows are dumb pure entertainment shows not like Sesame Street or Mr. Rogers with morals and lessons necessarily.
So, again, shut the actual frick up with how important and groundbreaking they are. Don't wanna do that? Deal with it when people shit on it and say kids shouldn't watch it.
>deal with it when we point out your stories are dumb as frick.
Of course they're dumb as frick, they're children's cartoons. If I want something not dumb as frick or important or groundbreaking I don't watch children's cartoon shows.
Magic isn't real either. If they watch this I will say "nothing in this show is real and isn't a model for life" if I want to teach them something. Most feature fight scenes that would kill the characters and child protags being child soldiers is that also okay, should they learn that they can use magic and fly and won't get hurt fighting giant monsters as 5 year olds? It's all stupid.
Well at least you agree they should shut the frick up about the virtue signaling, that's a start.
Anon the kids watching aren't going to be making large scale political desicions or controlling doomsday weapons.
No but they'll probably hurt people a lot and expect that they can just say they're sorry and it undoes all the extremely shitty things they've done, or worse in Catra's case do ONE nice thing and expect that everyone's just friends with you again no matter what you did, including you know exploding someone in a void of death.
For the kids, you should be ruthlessly mocking this thing, talk to them and point out how bad the writing is, make it clear that anyone who thinks like that is a bad person, use it as an example of what's not okay and how not to live. The only use these things have is to be shit on to teach people the writers were awful people and they should avoid it.
>including you know exploding someone in a void of death.
Yes, because that's something kids are doing all the time.
Kid tries to apologise to other kid they bullied and unexpectedly get rejected? Oh no! End of the world! Write a strongly worded letter to standards and practices.
Or just, you know, make fun of it. Kid sees it? Laugh your ass off and talk about how bad the writers are. Just make it clear this is every bit as unrealistic as the transforming magic. That way when the kid grows up and sees people calling it important or meaningful they know to laugh at those morons too. Writer says she's "Giving representation and meaning"? Kid knows to laugh because it's just dumb writing.
Honestly shitting on it and making fun of it is the best thing you can do, solves every issue except making people who like it feel uncomfortable. And really, they like garbage like that, are they worth holding back for?
>Just make it clear this is every bit as unrealistic as the transforming magic.
I mean it'd be pretty embarrassing to make fun of a kids show for this too.
Why? We make fun of adult movies for being stupid all the time. If you've never made fun of a bad movie with your friends you probably didn't have many. And really, making fun of stupid shit is fun, kids love it. They'd probably be energetic they could join in and make fun of the dumbest shit with you, what kid doesn't like to make fun of stuff?
So go wild! Point to the cat lady and point out how utterly moronic it all is, point out how shitty the writer is as a person, the kid will have a ball and you'll get to join in making it clear this is just awful shit written by awful people, who loses in this?
>And really, making fun of stupid shit is fun, kids love it.
Yeah kids. Adults shitting on kids things is a surefire way to tell everyone your a manchild.
Right, which is why everyone hated Mystery Science Theater. Real bomb, that one.
Totally not just you.
>Mystery Science Theater
Mystery Science Theater was known made fun of old movies. Making fun of shit from your own childhood is going to get you different looks from admitting that you care enough about currently airing kids shows to make fun of them.
Do it in your own times but bring it up at work and normal adults will wonder why on earth you know enough to care. Do it around kids who might even like the show not matter how bad, and you'll look like a right dick. Even if they think your cool now they'll look back and wonder what the frick was wrong with you.
>Mystery Science Theater was known made fun of old movies
And also kids stuff from the previous decade.
>Making fun of shit from your own childhood is going to get you different looks from admitting that you care enough about currently airing kids shows to make fun of them.
From who? You seriously think people don't make fun of kids movies?
>Do it in your own times but bring it up at work and normal adults will wonder why on earth you know enough to care.
Damn you are pretty insecure.
>Do it around kids who might even like the show not matter how bad, and you'll look like a right dick.
You have never met a child, they love to make fun of things, even things they like.
>Even if they think your cool now they'll look back and wonder what the frick was wrong with you.
Jesus you're literally imagining entire futures based around this, the frick is wrong with you?
>And also kids stuff from the previous decade.
Yeah, previous.
>You seriously think people don't make fun of kids movies?
Movies. Movies they took their kids to see, not media that they had to search out and watched enough of to understand and give a shit.
>you're literally imagining entire futures based around this, the frick is wrong with you?
You're not the the first person anon.
Look I can't stop you anon and you won't be the only one. However I've never met someone who does this more than off handedly who doesn't end up barely tolerated by everyone around him. Though that may be down to the personality type.
>Yeah, previous.
I feel like you're being intentionally obtuse about this and don't know how best to make fun of it.
>Movies. Movies they took their kids to see, not media that they had to search out and watched enough of to understand and give a shit.
In this context you're literally watching it with a kid or have watched it with a kid. Or, since you are clearly deeply insecure about yourself and afraid that someone might make fun of you for it, just say you saw it on twitter or watched it with a kid. Problem solved, everyone's onboard with you now.
>You're not the the first person anon.
The first person to what?
> However I've never met someone who does this more than off handedly who doesn't end up barely tolerated by everyone around him.
Jesus and now you're making a whole saga around how people are going to react, the actual frick is wrong with you and why are you imagining so many pretend scenarios about this? I mean you know that's all in your head, surely. None of what you're imagining is going to happen, almost certainly, you've created a silly ass narrative based around someone mocking a kids show to a child, complete with them growing up and looking back on those times with negative feelings.
Again, the actual frick is wrong with you?
>Or, since you are clearly deeply insecure about yourself and afraid that someone might make fun of you for it
Do you really think this is normal to even want to do? Do you think people only follow social norms because they're insecure?
>None of what you're imagining is going to happen
I don't know what to say. It's happened, it happens all the time. It sounds like it will happen again.
That your apparently not aware of that is worrying.
>Do you really think this is normal to even want to do?
Yes? I've never met a single person that didn't enjoy laughing at stupid media, not one. Do you not even just, barebones here, watch youtube or something? I mean even if I didn't have friends to make fun of shit with I'd be able to see that people make fun of anything and everything on a livestream. The only way I'd avoid it is if I focused on media that catered to the 'Everything is offensive' crowd like Kotaku or something.
>Do you think people only follow social norms because they're insecure?
Ah yes, those notable social norms of "Dude you can't make fun of that media, it's different".
Totally normal rules of social engagement, you gotta have limits on not making fun of stuff you saw from other people.
>I don't know what to say. It's happened, it happens all the time. It sounds like it will happen again.
Jesus frick man, you got some serious issues I'm in no way capable of dealing with. Just, how do you type this and not see the problem?
You're mapping out entire narratives in your head and swearing up down it happened and will happen again and it's just genuinely unsettling. Just real chilling shit.
>That your apparently not aware of that is worrying.
Yeah I'm not aware of the imaginary possible scenarios that might occur from me making fun of a dumb kids show with kids or others.
That you're not aware that this is completely normal and not something to be deeply insecure about regarding other people is very worrying. Just don't map out a story in your head for what you think will happen, sorry "Has happened" and you'll be fine. Or at least stop imagining future scenarios to console yourself when it doesn't happen that it's totally gonna happen later just you see, something.
That's a lot of online interactions you listed.
>it's just genuinely unsettling. Just real chilling shit
How very secure.
>That's a lot of online interactions you listed.
I mentioned two, and one of them was "You'd have to seek this out."
Is two interactions a lot to you? It would explain some things.
>How very secure.
Hey I'm willing to admit when shit creeps me out. I'm secure enough in myself to say "Wow, I find that unsettling" without worrying how that makes me look.
Can you do the same?
Someone’s insecure.
Yep, you hit it on the head. The biggest thing with Zuko, Vegeta and Dinobot are that the writers didn't do "UwU, the boy did nothing wrong".
The arcs mainly focused on how these characters were flawed, disliked (quite reasonably) by the good guys, and then they actively needed to work at their redemption. Simply feeling "sad" about it didn't suddenly make everything okay. They needed to be better
Yeah, early on in the show one figures out
that Zuko and Iroh are decent people caught fighting for a bad cause and you want them to find their way out of it.
Season 2 also works brilliantly because it's all about Zuko coming to develop empathy and concern for those that are not of the Fire Nation and how they are not spreading their progress and prosperity like the propaganda says.
Vegeta, and DBZ in general, is actually an interesting case that most people underestimate. People like to boil it down to "Goku make friend with bad guy" but there's a larger symbolic framework at play.
See, the Z fighters are, or were, villainous people. Goku was a psychotic little moron in Dragonball, bump on the head or no, and he knows he accidentally killed the only person he ever loved, and has no real way to deal with that. Yamcha was a Mad Max raider using super strength to shoot and beat innocent travelers for supplies. Krillin was a washout and a cheat, Tien was a vicious butthole who would happily extort you out of your last penny. Launch was a bank robber. Ox King was a fifteen foot tall fist of the north star character who used the martial arts taught to him by nobler men to carve out a kingdom. Piccolo burned down the farm of the family who took pity on him in a fit of autistic bitterness, and he was the reincarnation of a genocidal demon.
When these characters, and Goku in particular, look at a villain, part of them wants to believe that this person could make a change because it validates THEIR change. Goku sees Vegeta as far more similar to him than is actually the case. They all have this "idea" of Vegeta, the Vegeta they hope exists because it makes them feel better about themselves, it helps them forget about the past. They try to force Vegeta into this shape, without ever understanding just how fricked up of a person he is, and he tries too. They sit him down in a house like a normal man and give him food and hey vegeta you even get to frick the hot girl aren't you happy isn't this better? But no amount of comforts and blue haired blowjobs and peace is going to resolve the fact that this is someone who had spent his entire life almost exclusively being brutalized, and brutalizing others in turn, to the furthest extent possible, and that life just ended over night.
Vegeta tries to conform to this idea, mostly because he felt a pang of humanity when he got his son impaled, but it doesn't go well. He sits there like a frustrated zoo animal for years after everyone thinks he's "a good guy now" and tries to swallow his ever increasing distaste for his life. He doesn't feel strong, he wants a connection with his son but he has no idea how to do that, and he never actually made any amends for his misdeeds, or even had to admit he was wrong in anything other than his callousness towards his own blood.
So one day, he just fricking snaps. He just does literally what he would have done for his entire life, he acts like the vicious, petty space pirate he always was. And it makes him miserable. That's the key. He can't be a murdering pirate, and he can't be a good man. He realizes too late that it was already way too late to go back to what he used to be, the degree to which he was still evil made it impossible to live a good life, and the degree to which he had softened had made an evil life intolerable, and he's thrown away anything good about what he had.
So he kills himself.
It's a very interesting arc.
Could Vegeta even consider to be redeemed? The biggest gripe for me is when he willingly took the M and blew up part of a stadium full of people. It's not that he values lives or has a particularly large moral code, it's being constantly around other people who will keep him in line if he steps out, like a dog on a loose leash. Also he was totally ready to ice Broly 2 Super movies ago, so still no qualms about killing people who don't deserve it
>it's being constantly around other people who will keep him in line if he steps out, like a dog on a loose leash
That was defied and proven wrong when he "Beat" Goku and still willingly chose to sacrifice himself, knowing full well the dragonballs couldn't bring him back and he'd go to hell without his body for all he did. As far as he knew nobody could stop him, nobody could challenge him now that he finally "Beat" Kakarrot, but it didn't matter. He hit his peak and realized he didn't want to be up there anymore. He did love his child, he did love Bulma, and if he didn't act right then they'd actually die and he couldn't live with that knowing he's the one who caused it. He even thinks these exact things in his final moments.
Vegeta HAD to win that fight because otherwise, it would be like you said. He didn't choose to be good, he was tugged back on a leash and put in line. Now, he was the Freeza of his world, the strongest being and free to do as he wished, and what he chose to do was stop the one thing that could hurt the people he cared about. He's not "Good" wholly, I don't think he knows how to do that yet and probably never will. He just never lived that life and doesn't know what to do with it now that he has it.
But, ultimately he found a reason to at least try, and for all his faults he does try to be better.
>He did love his child, he did love Bulma, and if he didn't act right then they'd actually die and he couldn't live with that knowing he's the one who caused it
I'd always assumed he was constrained by some sort of weird moral mode. The acknowledgement that he could only defeat Goku after basically selling his soul to the devil, and how the deal had potentially disastrous consequences you could blame on him. He admits to caring for his family, but even evil villain characters can have loved ones. When Goku sacrificed himself to save the world from Cell, he did it for the planet, but Vegeta's sacrifice seems to still be self-centered(my family, my rival and honor) in the end
I don't see him as "evil" at the end of the series, but he isn't a hero either
>I'd always assumed he was constrained by some sort of weird moral mode.
See, that's the thing that the final speech seemed to disprove. Because in there three things got highlighted. One, that he admitted his pride was foolish and he had lost himself to it. Two, that he would lose his body and not come back via dragonballs. And three, he specifically said he did this for Trunks and Bulma, and yes even Kakarott. You can argue if he's actually a hero or not, that's up for debate, but regardless it showed that he's finally confronted his two biggest flaws, his pride and his self centered way of looking at things, and he finally overcame them. Nobody made him do this, not even his own pride, just the thought of his child and... babymama, I guess? I dunno if they're married. Point is, it wasn't self centered for the first time in his life, he found something he was willing to give himself up for. It's not just that he has loved ones, it's that after winning he finally understood he was wrong, and did something actively to make it right.
That's what more redemption stories need. They get what they want, and they learn where it all went wrong.
>disprove
Not him, but I hate that word when talking about a character giving a monologue. People cant be trusted to give an honest appraisal of their thoughts and feelings. We should pay attention to what a character says about themselves, but not take it as gospel.
Gotta disagree, if we can't take his inner thoughts in his final moments and the actions seem to back it up to be genuine, then we literally can't take any moment in any character as genuine and as close to truth as they're capable of. Vegeta didn't say his pride was folly and he did it for them out loud, he thought that to himself as he was literally dying and as far as he knew wasn't coming back. If that's not him being his most truthful about his thoughts and feelings, then when?
Everything a character says and does is colored, you don't take anything at face value. That doesn't mean it's all bullshit, but you never *start* looking at a characters thoughts and speech as gospel.
I mean we have a great example of this where Vegeta has his first real moment of clarity when trunks is shot, and his brain, even in an attempt to be honest, reels through half a dozen contradictory thoughts as he buckles under the strain of processing the situation.
My only point was that it was consistent with the actions he was currently doing. Sure, it's easy to say "I'm actually doing this for you, my wife(?) and kid" but show selfish stuff beside it, but in that moment Piccolo has just outright told him you're not coming back, you're not keeping your body, you're going to hell and then you're going to be purified and just gone. And, despite that, he not only goes through with it, he does so without hesitation. His actions backed up his words, essentially.
I just don't see the meaning in trying to disregard his own inner thoughts consistent with his actions to ascribe a secret selfishness to them. As much as that notion CAN be disproved, it was. There's really nothing more he could've done to hammer it home.
Seems to me like he's trying to find some meaning in the end of his life, to contextualize this act in as positive a way as he can, but he is absolutely suicidal. If he'd been able to kill Buu conventionally he probably still would have flown into the sun or just retreated into the depths of space to wallow in self hatred.
Piccolo is basically pointing this out.
"Go ahead and do it, but it doesn't actually change anything about you, this isn't really noble."
This from someone who really did have a meaningful sacrificial end to their life, at one point.
>to contextualize this act in as positive a way as he can
But he's still not using his sayian pride or own prowess in it, meaning he is ascribing the importance of the act to Bulma and Trunks specifically. So, regardless, he at the very least has progressed enough to hold them of higher importance than his own pride and selfishness.
>If he'd been able to kill Buu conventionally he probably still would have flown into the sun or just retreated into the depths of space to wallow in self hatred.
That doesn't square with what happened when he came back to life. It's not like he ran off in a huff after they won.
>"Go ahead and do it, but it doesn't actually change anything about you, this isn't really noble."
That's not what he said. I thought subs were different than https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yvx4R56Mx0 so I looked it up but it's basically 1-1, he just says that Vegeta's lifetime of evil means he won't get to keep his body. He doesn't say this isn't noble, he seems to imply the exact opposite when Vegeta accepts what's going to happen.
>But he's still not using his sayian pride or own prowess in it, meaning he is ascribing the importance of the act to Bulma and Trunks specifically. So, regardless, he at the very least has progressed enough to hold them of higher importance than his own pride and selfishness.
I agree, I've got no problems with that.
>That doesn't square with what happened when he came back to life. It's not like he ran off in a huff after they won.
I would say that's kind of an apples and oranges thing. It's one thing to make a decision when the bodies are probably still raining on the city you had a magic hissy fit in, and come to the same conclusion after actually successfully killing yourself, having some time to see that doesn't solve your problems either, and then being restored to life to do good works.
>That's not what he said. I thought subs were different than https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yvx4R56Mx0 [Embed] so I looked it up but it's basically 1-1, he just says that Vegeta's lifetime of evil means he won't get to keep his body. He doesn't say this isn't noble, he seems to imply the exact opposite when Vegeta accepts what's going to happen.
Just a miscommunication, I'm suggesting that is the *point* of Piccolo's role there, and what he's saying. i.e., he's there to express the notion "This doesn't really change anything."
Well, he never really *had* a code, so any constraint on him is mostly self constructed. He'd always lie cheat and steal, and Saiyans treat their families like shit. he planned on beating Freeza by using someone else's magic, after all.
Still, I think his blowing himself up, as much as he might have wanted it to protect trunks, was mostly about himself. There really was nothing left for him, he'd burned every bridge and thought he'd never be happy.
I'm not a huge fan of Super, or anything past the Cell saga really, despite the poignant end of a character arc for Vegeta, but let me say this.
Since... basically going on a killing spree and then committing suicide and being revived, Vegeta does seem to be making a better attempt at being at the very least, someone who takes care of his family and friends. Seeing that going back to what he was before would only make him miserable may have had some kind of positive effect in the long run, in a weird way.
He spends more time with his family, he's less surly and miserable (though he's still a moody shit) and he tries to take the most "responsible" path if not the most decent one. Some healing of his spirit has happened, at least.
Vegeta in the DBS films was willing to swallow his pride and embarrass himself at length for his family and not even think that much of it. He didn't like it, but he bounced right back whereas old Vegeta seethed for years over every slight. Similarly, he's now the one right in line with Piccolo suggesting "muh pragmatic thing" in every situation. He thinks things through and tries to do what he can at least figure to be the most right thing.
This suggests he's "healthier" anyway, if you want to say he's not really "good" past his love of his family I'm not going to die on that hill.
It's Goku in Super that's kind of gone a little bonkers.
>It's Goku in Super that's kind of gone a little bonkers.
More than a little. Someone pointed out the shit he pulls in Super with Raditz.
I would argue as of Super Vegeta is fully redeemed. The end of Z saw him finding joy in things beyond others suffering, but Super actually shows him regretting the things he did in the past and even acknowledging that the saiyans were kind of buttholes who had it coming when they were wiped out.
The man literally learned how to punch life back into people, you can't face turn harder than that.
>thanks for almost MURDERING ALL OF REALITY
Why specifically would it be bad to end reality, from a utilitarian point of view? Like intuitively I would be against it but what harm is done if everybody just ceases to exist with no warning?
>with no warning?
They literally saw themselves melt into light.
Surely even a utilitarian understands the concept of making people see a twisted reality before erasing them and understanding the negatives that comes with it. Also, it would've only been a pocket dimension, so genocide with the understanding that the rest of the outside universe would keep on living.
Essentially you're asking the harm of a hopefully fallout free atom bomb on a deserted island. Sure, they get wiped out with only a second to contemplate themselves dissolving into light, but the rest of the world gets to keep on living.
Yeah I haven't watched She-Ra sorry, I didn't know about the specifics. It's just something I think about occasionally and I thought the Catra thing would be a good springboard to get people's thoughts
Yeah I haven't watched She-Ra so I don't know the specifics sorry. It's just something I think about occasionally and I thought the whole Cat-Ra thing would be a good springboard to get people's thoughts
Vegeta ALSO killed several species while working under Frieza. So by your own logic that shouldn’t work.
And if you say “He was only following orders”, Andrias was being bullied by his dead dad and a pile of old newts in a computer so what of him?
The worst kind is when the "redeemed" die anyway. Part of their redemption should be facing the people they've wronged, and asking for their forgiveness, or at least trying. Dying in a heroic sacrifice is easy, living with what you've done is harder and way more narratively boring.
Yes.
We need some justice. Enough of this making the most awful people imaginable suddenly a good person at the last moment. I miss when main villains were pure evil.
I don't mind them being a good person, just as long as part of their reform is turning themselves in to face justice. I mean actual prison sentences.
>I don't mind them being a good person, just as long as part of their reform is turning themselves in to face justice. I mean actual prison sentences.
You know what? Frick it, no.
I don't watch these goofy fun cartoon shows with magic and shit to need to see bad guys go to fricking prison, this isn't a True Crime show for frick's sake.
I agree that a lot of redemption arcs are bad but a lot of pure evil villains are also badly written and boring and so are their defeats. And I would rather something kind of dumb but fun like Vegeta than sitting through magical singing rocks going to court and talking about paying bail that's just fricking stupid. It's a cartoon. They could do a better arc without doing that and depending on how ridiculous the cartoon is them literally face heel turning as a joke is also just fine.
Your complaints are with shitty writing but I never want this shit treated like real life I would watch fricking VTubers for that Jesus H. Christ.
By "prison sentence," I mean any kind of sentence from a justice system. Imprisonment/confined exile just seems like the most common sense route any system would take. So long as the reformed villain has to pay back the debt to society they incurred endangering it.
If they can do that and make it entertaining sure but if I'm watching this kind of shit I just want it to be fun. I care more about it being fun than moral calculus. No real people use doomsday weapons evil magic or crazy scifi mad science tech to blow up all of existence it's all stupid anyway. If it's compelling or funny that's fine with me, a lot of old anime redemptions were dumb like that but who cares if it's fun to watch.
This. If it's not entertaining, why bother. No sensible person says "I love this story because it conforms with my sense of morals and justice" because that would be moronation. They say "I love this story because it's fun and engaging". That's all there is to it.
If half of these 'redemption' complainees had their way, we'd be going back to seeing villains randomly being struck down by bolts of lighning lest the audience not know that they shouldn't do bad things.
>If half of these 'redemption' complainees had their way, we'd be going back to seeing villains randomly being struck down by bolts of lighning lest the audience not know that they shouldn't do bad things.
Yeah I'm not watching a fun show to watch someone lecture to me about morals and that's actually what's wrong with shit today. These things are dumb I watch them to have fun. I'll read a book about moral philosphy or something for a lecture on morals or nonfiction or at least not a stupid kids show with really ridiculous fight scenes and stupid shit.
Oh the child characters start fighting with magic and so an adult character comes out and lectures to the audience that kids should not fight or use violence and also magic isn't real and then all the characters sit down to eat broccoli and then brush their teeth for 30 minutes what a great fricking show.
>Yeah I'm not watching a fun show to watch someone lecture to me about morals and that's actually what's wrong with shit today.
Boy I wish writers actually did that but they sure as frick don't seem to be able to not lecture you despite you saying you hate the idea of them lecturing you.
Say who wants to rewatch Stevonnie get hit on by someone the show legit presents worse than the giant ass space conqueror? Oh the stupid fun of learning that making passes at someone in a dance club is just wrong, people! Who wants to see fun space adventures when you can have Sadie learn about how her relationship with a guy is bad for her?
Yeah nah give us the actual fun stupid shit or shut the frick up.
Or just watch another show.
That's my secret, I can make fun of it and still just watch something else.
Shit did you never hear of Mystery Science Theater 3000? Huge ratings hit of just some guys crushing on the dumbest shit. Including, and this is going to blow your mind, childrens shows! Yes, Mystery Science Theater did just that and relentlessly shit on kids shows of the 50's, 60, 70's and beyond, and people loved it. People replicated it, a lot. I mean a fricking lot. Like there was a whole Youtube industry of making fun of kids shows, with tens of millions of views per episode. An entire site with 20+ reviewers all shitting on kids media thrived.
I don't know how to tell you this but you can watch other things and make fun of the fact that Steven Universe had a whole ass episode about a space captain in a stolen ship crying about how he's not missed instead of going on space adventures you say you want. Can't have it both ways, b***h.
>Say who wants to rewatch Stevonnie get hit on by someone the show legit presents worse than the giant ass space conqueror?
I mean not me. I find that shit even more insultingly stupid. You are preaching to the goddamn choir here. Frick that shit even harder it's even worse.
Thank you. Who wants to see White Diamond taken down by a damn kindergarten level taunt? Was Sugar just stalking the local chucky cheese and got her mind blown and had to make that her ending? Who the frick wants to just watch Spinel give up after the thing explodes and everyone just shrugs it off?
Where's the fun in this? Where's the big finish where they do something either crazy to redeem themselves or crazy in the other way? Where's the fun "Hey, Zuko here!" moment of trying to make things right? SU doesn't want you to take it seriously but they'll just offhandedly mention this big ass event where someone steals a spaceship, and instead spend an entire episode on the trials of Onion Kid? Stop preaching and have fun already. Or just make fun of bad writing, really all you can do.
Exactly. Dinobot didn't just redeem himself, he went out in a giant blaze of glory where he solo'd the entire army in crazy ways to do the right thing. You think if Blue and Yellow didn't do the same Vs White people wouldn't have loved it? Instead it was the lamest takedown ever. Kids shows should at the very least be fun.
>Who wants to see White Diamond taken down by a damn kindergarten level taunt?
Oh you're underestimating Sug.
You know she was sitting on that comeback since she was like, twelve, in some argument with her mom or whatever, and she never got the chance to say it. People like her carry around these cringy "mic drop" moments in their heads for DECADES and can't stand when they dont land with the force of an atomic explosion.
>Say who wants to rewatch Stevonnie get hit on by someone the show legit presents worse than the giant ass space conqueror?
IMO for me it's one of those things where the more realistic part will seem worse, the interplanetary space warlords thing was too cartoonish to trigger any moral reaction. Sort of like how people feel Gendo Ikari is a worse parent than Ragyo, despite the latter being physically abusive and even a molester. Cause it goes so far into villainary that it becomes detached from real life. But tons of viewers can remember a time their parent was distant, cold, and emotionally manipulative like Gendo
What's with the binary options?
>Normal boring justice and the antagonist goes to prison
>Defeat the the villain but live with the fact that you sometimes have to find ways of coexisting with your enemies because you can't redeem them but killing them would cause bigger problems
>The villain's evil plan fails but their still way more powerful than the hero so they'll just have to be ready to fight again
>The villains straight up wins
>The villain was right
>The villain serves their sentence but a couple of seasons and their out now, maybe they retire
>The villain is defeated bit not caught, by the time the protagonists bumps into them again they've moved on from villainy
>The villain commits suicide
>Sometimes a good old hoisted by his own petard with fatal consequences
>The villain gives up and goes home
Being dogmatic is boring.
In order to receive a redemption arc, the requirement shouldn't be morality. It should be whether you're annoying. An evil but fun and interesting character can join the good guys, but if they're evil and annoying, they deserve comeuppance. Especially if they're smug. Smug, annoying villains need comeuppance. Humble, fun villains can do whatever.
Smug annoying villains need to get away with it.
Simon got fricked over by writers who were perfectly fine redeeming women who have done much worse. I'm not even talking about Grace, Amelia's done things a thousand times worse than both combined and she gets a slap on the wrist.
>who have done much worse
Simon and Grace were equally culpable. She repented, he didn't. Why does that fly over Simongays' heads?
>Simon and Grace were equally culpable.
But they weren't, Grace was the leader and kept lying to him about what was happening and Simon only ever believed what Grace told him - beliefs that she kept pretending to uphold until the last second. Grace only repented because she got Hazel and talks from Amelia while Simon got jackshit.
>888
Kek that's funny. Anyway.
It's not just that, it's up to a writer to make his world merciful or ruthless.
Grace saw that she did wrong to the point her Tape as Hazel told her that Simon was not the one who bring the idea of kill Nulls, her actions? Unfold some little birds and tell Simon that she is not responsible for his problems like if the whole point of a redemption was not to make amends for your mistakes.
Simon continued to breaking bad, his actions? Lock up someone who lied to him twice and put a dictatorship over some children, who hypocritically wanted to make them victims to us when in book 2 and the beginning of book 3 it was seen that they were more than happy to kill and torture denizens.
One was saved by a deus ex machina and the other died from his worst trauma (which he got from another woman that the series simply forgave)
I'm not telling you to forgive Simon or Kill Graces, or at least not both at the same time, just want to highlight how reducing everything to she good he bad is simplistic and an example of how manipulable morality is. people who don't even want to see the context.
I'm not mad she got redeemed, I'm mad that everyone forgave her so quickly.
All characters in your pic suck for different reasons
>Spinel is the personification of "sad backstory excuses your actions" and Future proved how one note she was beyond that
>Catra was one of the main baddies for 4 seasons and then the last season pretends she was a minor villain, glossing over her actions. Even disregarding how she doesn’t deserve any of the love she got and pretending she did, the way they do it is an insult to her character and the rest of the cast, functionally destroying the message they tried to tell
>Simon was a cult victim who was killed in a story that expects us to sympathize with the cult leader. That’s pretty much it.
The real problem is modern animation writers don’t know how to write morally complex stories without shoving the blame to one person or group instead of demanding personal responsibility. But it’s not alone in this, comics have been doing it for a while, so have movies and games. It’s a trend of saving or getting rid off characters based on how much the writers want them around
Simon was irredeemable because he passed the point of feeling empathy. Catra and Spinel were fricked in the head, but we saw moments where they looked at what they were doing and clearly seemed to understand that they'd become something rotten, even if they needed help to turn back. Simon just doubled-down in believing everything he did was right (very Cinemaphilener of him). He killed Tuba and when Hazel was bawling her eyes out like a kid that'd lost her mom, he just looked annoyed and then wanted to move along regardless or whether or not she could keep up. No ability to empathize. When you reach the point where a traumatized kid gets no reaction from you, you're basically unsalvageable. I know currentyear views it through a few different lenses, but I don't see anything wrong with some shows going "you can frick up really badly and still be redeemed" while another show goes "you can become so broken there's no way to fix you."
>Simon just doubled-down in believing everything he did was right
You mean like how Catra in season 3 tried wiping out reality and her response to that was in season 4 to escalate in trying to take over the planet and kill the child of the woman she murdered and burn her whole kingdom to the ground? You know, the Catra that finally got a talking to by Adora and said "Well then I'm going to bur MORE of it!"
And then we have Spinel who stopped the drill, realized what she was doing was wrong, got her feelings hurt and then doubled down on trying to murder an entire planet worth of people to the point she detonated her own drill that everyone told her would cause massive devastation if it happened. That it didn't happen is literally just a plothole, it spewed liquid death next to an ocean but somehow none of it got in the ocean at point blank range of the detonation, and she knew this exactly. She doubled down fighting Steven, tripled down detonating the drill, and didn't give a shit about the people she just met and saw down there as she had wandered around with Steven. She knew they were living people, she had been in the concert watching them have fun, and she dismissed them all trying to kill them because she felt hurt. Nobody made her do this, hell the drill was off when it happened, just like the portal was off when Catra doubled down on risking the world for herself and she double trippled down when the world was literally falling apart.
But THEY showed a sad scene maybe so that all doesn't count and you might be a bit biased being awful.
I've gotta agree, nothing Simon did was on the level of literally fighting tooth and nail to genocide an entire reality. And that wasn't even her moment where she realized she was wrong, she kept going. She almost killed everyone, did kill someone, and then she tried to kill Glimmer. She murdered her mom and then tried to burn her home to the ground, and we're supposed to believe in season 5 they'd be cooing over how cute they were? She-ra fans are some broken people.
Catra had several moments of regret. She powered through them because she told herself she needed to, or because she was hurt and furious over Shadow Weaver. But there was no moment where she looked at a mourning kid and felt nothing but annoyance. That wasn't Simon when he was going through huge mental strain, he'd faced some inconveniences but no major emotional shakeups. That was just Simon showing what sort of person he was normally. And normal-everyday Simon had unfortunately become someone that looked at a traumatized kid and felt no empathy.
>But there was no moment where she looked at a mourning kid and felt nothing but annoyance.
Yes, there was, when she tried to kill Glimmer who was mourning the mom SHE KILLED
Yeah, no. That was an extremely different situation.
Correct in that she had just tried to burn down Glimmers home as she was still mourning the mom she killed, rather than being someone who cared about but was unreleated. Oh, and then she did it again. And again! Three times in season 4, she even mocked her 2 of the three, to her face. I mean just cold ass no regret mocked her, to her face.
So, yeah, it was different, in that it was a thousand times worse than Simons because Simon didn't make fun of her before trying to kill her. He "Looked annoyed", totes different.
And they didn't even bring it up in season 5, they straight up had a "Don't mention Angela's name" rule even when her husband is a main character now.
Like you'd think rule 1 of writing a redemption is having Catra at least say "Sorry I killed your mom". Zuko had to go on a whole ass saving Sokka's dad thing to fix that one, and it's not even his fault he got captured.
Yeah and there were people acting like it was crazy Glimmer tried to kill her in that scene, the reveal one in the secret base. She literally mocked Glimmer to her face and they just had a funeral for her mom just a couple days ago, because Catra killed her. Specifically Catra. Literally nobody else made that happen, not even Hordak. Hordak flicked a switch he thought was safe and Catra watched reality melting and tried to murder everyone, she just mostly failed. If you try to blow up a building and someone heroically sacrifices themselves to save everyone, you still fricking blew up that lady. And then she makes fun of her daughter? It's not like she didn't know, there was a very public funeral and she was well aware she was gone. This was Catra with nobody ordering her and nobody behind her, nobody made her do this or coerced her, then she killed someone and literally never felt regret for it. You know the one scene she feels regret? That Adora yelled at her. I'm serious, go watch for yourself, she never once feels bad for killing someone and then, in command of the Horde, decides she's going to fricking burn down her home and kill her kid.
But Simon was mean that one time so you know it's fine if SOME genocidal murderers get redeemed.
>Simon was irredeemable because she hurt one kid and left her friend for dead
>but the abusive c**t who tried to destroy reality and the psycho who attempted global genocide had to be saved because they were "fricked in the head"
Big news moron, Simon was also fricked in the head. And his crime count is 10 times lesser than the other characters. He’s not even the most morally reprehensive character in his own show, that’s Amelia and Samantha, and the show treats both of those as female queens.
Why do people act like Simon did the worst thing ever by killing Tuba when he and Grace wheeled hundreds if not thousands of nulls together before that? I just don't get why he's the bad guy when Grace did stuff just as bad as him.
>Why do people act like Simon did the worst thing ever by killing Tuba when he and Grace wheeled hundreds if not thousands of nulls together before that?
The viewer never sees Grace kill a null directly. That's basically it as far as I can tell.
Frick redeeming evil characters that NEVER WORKS
(Exept Zuko, it did work that one time and it was awesome
I like how comics give the faux redemption to some villains.
They're forced to work for good or they get killed.
Sinclair got the best of two worlds because he was fully redeemed at the end and so even Mark let him go.
Even ended up with a hot wife and a kid.
redemption
CATRA DID NOTHING WRONG
YOU WILL PET THE CATRA AND GIVE HER TREATS
Feel like cartoon shows should focus more on irredeemable villains: Adds a little more realism and interesting concepts to the animation media.
I'm getting both bored and annoyed of villains always being redeemed even when they've done something that would have gotten them the death penalty here in our world.
Also: It teaches children that some people are just straight up buttholes.
I just wish shows could get away with more emotional weight. Like the "good guys" actually losing and the "bad guy" "wins," but its not necessarily a hollow victory or played off comedically. More like a slow burn where little by little the antagonist begins to show regret as his world slowly crumbles around him, displaying denial, grief, anger, etc.
My autistic headcanon for infinity train is that Grace ended up dying (the deus ex machina origami birds were fricking moronic) during her fight with Simon. The death of Grace, her absent leadership and what she mentioned about the "nulls", and Simon going insane are all a catalyst for the downfall of the Apex as members start to defect, leaving Simon to rot alone on the train, mentally.
I like redemption arcs. Anastasia Tremaine in Cinderella 3 is a great example of turning a spoiled girl into a funny and interesting character.
I love spoiled/b***h redemption arcs, probably because they are more fantastical than, like, dragons existing. Wish more shows did them.
Anastasia taking the place of Cinderella at the start of the third movie was also a good detail for how abusive household dynamics work.
Once the main target was out of the picture, Tremaine and Drizzella started bullying the more meek of the step-sisters as a replacement.
Frick redemption, frick this white-black morale, no one is right and everyone is right. I don't wanna see sappy brainwashing characters into mindless gg sidecicks same as I don't wanna see mindless triumph on stupid evily evil. Only gray morale, only harsh and uncaring reality mixed with spare glimpses of love, faith and honour.