>spends his life advocating for animation on ones and not justifying corner cutting animation on twos

>spends his life advocating for animation on ones and not justifying corner cutting animation on twos
>animation fags now praise arbitrary 12FPS in 3D animation where the in-betweens take no effort to make
>because "it looks like 2D animation"

How would Richard Williams feel if he saw the absolute state of modern animation

  1. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    He would mald, seethe then cope like you are currently doing.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Would he not have a justified reason to do so? His life's work was trying to establish a higher standard for animation but instead his lazy peers' corner cutting methods are being praised for being superior and better looking for no reason other than because they subvert the standard.

      It's like praising Duchamp bidet for being revolutionary art simply because it's different than the classically made art until then, that shit led us to the bananas taped to walls in art galleries.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Studio animation is a business, not a hobby. Animation has costs, and those costs have to be justified. Go ahead and become a billionaire philanthropist and fund whatever animation you want.

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Are these 12FPS CG movies meaningfully cheaper to make than regular 24FPS ones?

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Technically it would take more time to render more frames and thus would cost more money, but I don't think the lower framerate has anything to do with budget concerns.
            3D animation has gotten really slick and as a result, a reactionary movement has evolved to try to imbue a bit more grit into the medium. People are experimenting with paint brush type textures and lower framerates etc to make the films feel less plastic.

            You see the same thing happening in a lot of other mediums. People who use photoshop and illustrator are constantly trying to find ways to make it feel less like photoshop and illustrator. Musicians who work digitally either incorporate analogue techniques into their recordings, or do a lot of work to make it sound and feel that way.

            Every time someone does something new that people like, the floodgates open and everyone does it for awhile until it gets overplayed and then they move on.

            • 2 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              12FPS is not new though

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                in general, no, but it's intentional stylistic use in 3D animation is.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Guilty Gear Xrd is 10 years old though

            • 2 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              >Musicians who work digitally either incorporate analogue techniques into their recordings
              I've always compare modulating frame rate in animation to adding groove in music. It just makes things snap and feel organic.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Nah low framerate was always a budget measure whereas analogue music is all we had at one point

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Well, that's what Walt Disney did? Snow White had made him nearly bankrupt.

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          That's not what the issue is though, people are saying that the jittery framerates look *better* than the standard alternative, and that it's a good conscious deliberate artistic decision and not just a budget measure.

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            It's not a budget measure, retard
            The lack of smooth in-betweens allows for more expressive and dynamic posing/movement on keys without causing a pronounced warping effect on the model in motion

            • 2 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              Then why post this

              Studio animation is a business, not a hobby. Animation has costs, and those costs have to be justified. Go ahead and become a billionaire philanthropist and fund whatever animation you want.

              you fucking moron

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Anonymous is not a name you fucking retard
                Everyone shitting on you is not the same person.
                It's time to stop posting

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                It's not my fault you're an illiterate tourist that doesn't know how to follow reply chains

            • 2 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              >warping effect
              Model warping only happens when you animating in maya with motion curves and you let the computer fill in the in betweens. What puss in boots is doing is using no curves but posing the model every frame by hand, to emulate the dynamic posing from anime. If they wanted to they could animate on twos or ones with the posing method, or a mixture, they just don’t want to.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                If you animated those scenes on 1s without a warping effect it would look stilted and angular instead of flowing and rounded. If you animated them with one, well, you'd have weird gross model warping all over the place.
                2s work here where 1s doesn't because your brain fills in the gaps.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Every animation done on twos can be done on ones and work, the final outcomes' appeal might be debatable but there is no hard technical issue preventing them from being done at various framerates, even higher than 24 per second if you wanted

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >The final outcome's appeal
                Is what we're talking about.
                There's no technical limitation in software preventing in-betweens in those scenes, but they would look like shit with in-betweens because the whole point is that the keys are designed with the gaps in mind

                >If you animated those scenes on 1s without a warping effect it would look stilted and angular instead of flowing and rounded.
                Not necessarily it all about how you place the key frames. Key frame positions play a huge part in how dynamic something looks. A lot of why I think Japanese CG animation looks so bad is because they’re key frames are purposefully stilted because they’re trying to emulate 2d with its budgetary holding of poses
                If you animated them with (curves), well, you'd have weird gross model warping all over the place.
                Not necessarily either because Pixar is able to anime light year on ones and twos perfectly. But animating with curves makes it harder to do dynamic key frames because just like tweeting, you can’t hold specific poses for like one frame, because the computer wants to smooth all the frames together.
                >2s work here where 1s doesn't because your brain fills in the gaps.
                Imo it’s more of a subjective thing personally I hate the 3s look, it’s too choppy they need to add more 2s in some areas so its not so Jank looking

                You would have to make the motions in those scenes slower or less exaggerated in order for it to look right with more frames. They can only be so pronounced and exaggerated because there's no in-betweens making the transition between wildly different poses look bad

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >but they would look like shit with in-betweens because the whole point is that the keys are designed with the gaps in mind
                I disagree, higher framerates look better as a rule while low framerates are jittery and distracting

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                That’s subjective

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                No it isn't.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Yes, and the man who made the best animation of all time and wrote the book on animation holds the same opinion

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >Higher fps looks better as a rule
                60fps interp videos would like a word

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                That's just another corner cutting hack, in good faith we are talking about a situation where all the frames are planned for and hand-made/drawn instead of arbitrarily inserted where they don't belong without oversight.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >you would have to make the motions in those scenes slower or less exaggerated in order for it to look right with more frames
                In Spiderverse when miles finally learns how to use his powers they increase the frame rate to 2s instead of 3s, and it looks fine there. Even his final swing has a lot of exaggerated movement.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                This is actually a meme and misinformation propagated by the movie creators for some reason, most of the movie is on 2s and most of the action is on 1s

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                I’m talking about miles’ character specifically is animated on 3s for most of the movie. Of course everything else is animated on 2s. And no it’s is not a meme at the end he really is animated on a higher frame rate, you’re just being disingenuous now

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >specifically is animated on 3s for most of the movie
                He's not, he's on twos like everyone else, then he gets into ones in action scenes. Even in the forest swinging scene, him and Peter are on the same framerate most of the time.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >but they would look like shit with in-betweens because the whole point is that the keys are designed with the gaps in mind
                There's no reason why you couldn't design the same movement without the gaps in mind

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Some things are meant to have gaps

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                And some aren’t. It’s all stylistic choice.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                You are talking about the spacing of the lines, which aren't inherently tied to framerate, you could animate this same scene in 60FPS and get the same effect by grouping the new frames near the keyframes and making them subtle instead of inserting them perfectly between the extremes or keyframes.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                And some aren’t. It’s all stylistic choice.

                I swear FLCL was gods greatest gift to animation

                [...]
                Okay so we agree that most people prefer higher frame rates in animation, in accordance to good spacing. So how do we feel about the fact that detailed animation costs too much to make and is not economically viable from a tv perspective?

                All the gifs are too large so I’ll have to settle for this

                Holy dogshit.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >If you animated those scenes on 1s without a warping effect it would look stilted and angular instead of flowing and rounded.
                Not necessarily it all about how you place the key frames. Key frame positions play a huge part in how dynamic something looks. A lot of why I think Japanese CG animation looks so bad is because they’re key frames are purposefully stilted because they’re trying to emulate 2d with its budgetary holding of poses
                If you animated them with (curves), well, you'd have weird gross model warping all over the place.
                Not necessarily either because Pixar is able to anime light year on ones and twos perfectly. But animating with curves makes it harder to do dynamic key frames because just like tweeting, you can’t hold specific poses for like one frame, because the computer wants to smooth all the frames together.
                >2s work here where 1s doesn't because your brain fills in the gaps.
                Imo it’s more of a subjective thing personally I hate the 3s look, it’s too choppy they need to add more 2s in some areas so its not so Jank looking

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            It's not. It takes the same time to render 12 fps as it does 24 fps. Pro studios don't skip frames even if it's the same image.

            • 2 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              >It takes the same time to render 12 fps as it does 24 fps
              This is literally wrong and would break our knowledge of physics if it were true

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                In a CG animation that has variable frame rates, ALL 24 frames must be rendered.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Not really, you can tell the renderer to skip identical frames or do tricks like only rendering 12 FPS character movement with chroma background and overlaying it over 24FPS environment pans etc

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          You are such a fucking gay bootlicking consoymer. It's an artform first and a business second. If animation becomes a business first and an artform second, then what's the fucking point?

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            You need to be 18 years or older to post here, son.

            • 2 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              Says the zoomer that's never known anything but greed.

            • 2 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              see

              Claims need to have evidence or sources, that is how arguments work, for example here is Richard himself backing up my claims while directly contradicting yours

              >twos are an economic answer to an artistic question

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Different kinds of animation techniques exist. Smooth animation is nice but sometimes low frame rates can feel more realistic and dynamic. Either way animation is a social construct so there’s only subjectivity like all art

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >low frame rates can feel more realistic and dynamic
          Anon I think it's time to get your eyes checked out

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >Either way animation is a social construct so there’s only subjectivity like all art
          I really hate how colleges teach utter dogshit like this as objective truth. Even the person who made this theory pointed out that it's a flawed and limited view of the world and shouldn't be used all the time like people do now.

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          There are undeniable objective principles to animation, if something is supposed to look heavy but it comes across as weightless, the animation failed objectively

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            It’s possibly to make something look heavy in both smooth and limited animation. Which option you choose is up to you

            • 2 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              Yes, but to claim there is only subjectivity in animation is wrong

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                You are talking about the spacing of the lines, which aren't inherently tied to framerate, you could animate this same scene in 60FPS and get the same effect by grouping the new frames near the keyframes and making them subtle instead of inserting them perfectly between the extremes or keyframes.

                Okay so we agree that most people prefer higher frame rates in animation, in accordance to good spacing. So how do we feel about the fact that detailed animation costs too much to make and is not economically viable from a tv perspective?

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                We are discussing 3D animation where higher FPS is a matter of render farm costs, not effort or man hours

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                If it’s curve-animation, it’s render time. if it’s spiderverse frame-by-frame it’s man hours to pose the models every frame. I mean 2d Disney movies have been made since forever with smooth animation and they costed cheaper sometimes than cgi movies. So companies really have no excuse.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Do you have a source on Spider-Verse hand-posing models every frame

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Yes, the source is me. I’m an animation student and have done cgi animation frame by frame. You have to hand pose the model frame by frame, because it relies on special poses. The computer can’t inbetween everything in the way that you want, since it’s so specific. So you have to go in and pose the model to get the arcs and secondary motion that makes it feel fluid. Sometimes though the computer will in between and I’ll go back and change some things to liven the animation up.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                So no source then

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >imagine thinking a computer could inbetween this
                bro just use your eyes

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                That's a still image

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                > has to cherry pick a single frame in low quality to make spider verse look cool
                Lul, typical animation student. Was looking forward to actually seeing what you people consider to be good animation since you never post it
                The mere fact that you expect the computer to be doing all the work for you says a lot - as it is also communicated by such a meaningless scene which looks like Spider-Man wallpaper. Again, this is what you get from the opposite of the Richard Williams philosophy, desperately trying to shore up the reputation of Animation that is mediocre at best

                Shut up this crappy site doesn’t support high quality gifs and I meant to post a gif and not an image

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Post webms then fag

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                No I don’t have any, and I don’t know how to make webms

              • 2 weeks ago
                guy

                > has to cherry pick a single frame in low quality to make spider verse look cool
                Lul, typical animation student. Was looking forward to actually seeing what you people consider to be good animation since you never post it
                The mere fact that you expect the computer to be doing all the work for you says a lot - as it is also communicated by such a meaningless scene which looks like Spider-Man wallpaper. Again, this is what you get from the opposite of the Richard Williams philosophy, desperately trying to shore up the reputation of Animation that is mediocre at best

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >reading comprehension
                I’m arguing in favor of frame by frame animation dummy

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                All the gifs are too large so I’ll have to settle for this

              • 2 weeks ago
                guy

                It looks mocapped, as much of the character animation is based on the look of a tired Asian woman. What is supposed to be so special that requires low FPS
                Why would kids want to look at this instead of stuff like Demon Slayer

                >Yeah I remembered when video games had to slow down the frame rate for animations that look cool
                You mean like arcsys has been doing for a decade?
                Man Guy is such a retard, I should have filtered him ages ago. Time to download CinemaphileX

                > trying to instruct noobs to the board on how to not see my posts so they don't see the blistering criticism of your nonsense and also other meaningful things
                Clearly you recognize the real point of your education is how to groom!

                [...]
                Shut up this crappy site doesn’t support high quality gifs and I meant to post a gif and not an image

                >reading comprehension
                I’m arguing in favor of frame by frame animation dummy

                You don't get to call somebody dumb or tell them to shut up when your own input is so much more idiotic than what he can come up with on his worst day 15 years ago, when he was a teen who didn't waste tons of money on a worthless education
                Get a real personality

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                It’s not mocapped you can clearly see a smear frame

    • 2 weeks ago
      guy

      > the most he can hope for is to make actually great masterful animators mad
      Guaranteed animation student comment

      Studio animation is a business, not a hobby. Animation has costs, and those costs have to be justified. Go ahead and become a billionaire philanthropist and fund whatever animation you want.

      You say it's a business but the business went into the toilet until hand-drawn animation ended in America. Meanwhile Japan at the very least has Sakuga and also really cool series like Gurren Lagann which do lots of cool stuff with the art, way cooler than shit like Home on the Range and the Princess and the Frog with little visual appeal
      Audiences preferring CGI had nothing to do with it, probably was just a nice novelty, as you can see by the animation industry tanking AGAIN - we need more of a Richard Williams point of view in animation

      It's not. It takes the same time to render 12 fps as it does 24 fps. Pro studios don't skip frames even if it's the same image.

      Just a lie, if that was true doing higher FPS like The Hobbit would be no problem. They whined endlessly about that because they don't want to take on the higher standards and budget of high FPS Cinema

      He never finished his film.

      He lacked support and animators of his calibre

      It's not a budget measure, retard
      The lack of smooth in-betweens allows for more expressive and dynamic posing/movement on keys without causing a pronounced warping effect on the model in motion

      Yeah I remembered when video games had to slow down the frame rate for animations that look cool
      Industry people just lack the ability to draw cool as you can see here and need to look for crutches

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >Yeah I remembered when video games had to slow down the frame rate for animations that look cool
        You mean like arcsys has been doing for a decade?
        Man Guy is such a retard, I should have filtered him ages ago. Time to download CinemaphileX

  2. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    spider man

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      haha look at those moves!

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      It would look better on twos, in fact it might be Oscar worthy then

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Him again?

  3. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    He never finished his film.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      What a lazy hack.

  4. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >Arbitrary 12fps
    By using a lower framerate and individually animating each frame with less or no tweening you can achieve animation that wouldn't normally work with 3D models or with a higher framerate.

    You're simply too animation illiterate to understand what's going on around you

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >By using a lower framerate and individually animating each frame with less or no tweening you can achieve animation that wouldn't normally work with 3D models or with a higher framerate.
      [citation needed]

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Holy shit this anon can't be serious
        This ain't 4chan, dipshit

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >noooo you can't just expect me to back up baseless claims!!
          Lmao

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >Nooooooo you have to give me a scientific paper on how the eyes see framerates!
            Die ignorant

            • 2 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              Claims need to have evidence or sources, that is how arguments work, for example here is Richard himself backing up my claims while directly contradicting yours

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Anon that's a man's personal opinion on 2D animation
                That you think it has anything at all to do with 3D animation speaks volumes

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Wow so you are genuinely illiterate, that explains all your posts so far

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Anon you posted a 2D artist admitting that some animations looked better on 2s and pretended it said 3D animation should be on 1s
                >You have brain problems

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >doubling down on your inability to read
                Wow, I thought I'd have to argue with you but you're doing a great job of embarrassing yourself on your own

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >No u
                Well this got boring fast
                Put up more of a fight next time

  5. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    whats animating on ones and two?

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      It means animating 24 frames by hand for every second
      Animating on twos is animating 12 frames a second
      Threes are 8 frames and so on and so fourth

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        These demonstrations almost never show the most realistic option, which is mixing all three as the spacing demands.

  6. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >a guy spent his whole life having this opinion, therefore it is correct

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >a guy basically invented modern animation, therefore his animation knowledge is superior to yours

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >guy who invented animation couldn’t even convince other guys who helped invent animation to animate correctly
        Pathetic

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >guy who was passionate about animation since childhood vs guys who used to be car salesmen and office workers before getting into animation and just wanted to go home from work as early as possible

  7. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    My dude, there isn't one objective best way of doing things

  8. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    I honestly didn't mind the lower fps in Into the Spiderverse because it made the movie look like a claymation movie.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      That's an insult to claymation

  9. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    I swear FLCL was gods greatest gift to animation

  10. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    i think it looks pretty

  11. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    There's really no point in listening to the ancient rambling of some boomer animator who barely finished anything, and what he did was hardly appealing. Impressive as it may be, who cares? Everything he did is boring at best and obnoxiously unappealing at worst.
    Lol funny animals and Arabian nights-its all so dated and uninspired.
    Williams would never design anything like FLCL or Evangelion. all the talk about technique and skill only to make designs no one really cares about except a few animation enthusiasts. his girls are pretty, at least.
    I don't care if zig zag was animated at 120 frames per second for 30 years, the character is uninspired and unappealing.
    Fuck western animation rules.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Boo

  12. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    He animated on ones and never finished his masterpiece as a result.
    There's a time and a place for everything.
    I like that studios are experimenting with various techniques to give 3D animation a bit more grit. The low framerate thing is having a moment but after everyone gets their fill of overusing it, it'll go in the toolbox as 3D animation stretches into further areas.

  13. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    thief and the cobbler is a pretty movie but it is really, really awful in every other way

    yes even the recobbled cut

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