>spends his life advocating for animation on ones and not justifying corner cutting animation on twos
>animation gays now praise arbitrary 12FPS in 3D animation where the in-betweens take no effort to make
>because "it looks like 2D animation"
How would Richard Williams feel if he saw the absolute state of modern animation
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He would mald, seethe then cope like you are currently doing.
Would he not have a justified reason to do so? His life's work was trying to establish a higher standard for animation but instead his lazy peers' corner cutting methods are being praised for being superior and better looking for no reason other than because they subvert the standard.
It's like praising Duchamp bidet for being revolutionary art simply because it's different than the classically made art until then, that shit led us to the bananas taped to walls in art galleries.
Studio animation is a business, not a hobby. Animation has costs, and those costs have to be justified. Go ahead and become a billionaire philanthropist and fund whatever animation you want.
Are these 12FPS CG movies meaningfully cheaper to make than regular 24FPS ones?
Technically it would take more time to render more frames and thus would cost more money, but I don't think the lower framerate has anything to do with budget concerns.
3D animation has gotten really slick and as a result, a reactionary movement has evolved to try to imbue a bit more grit into the medium. People are experimenting with paint brush type textures and lower framerates etc to make the films feel less plastic.
You see the same thing happening in a lot of other mediums. People who use photoshop and illustrator are constantly trying to find ways to make it feel less like photoshop and illustrator. Musicians who work digitally either incorporate analogue techniques into their recordings, or do a lot of work to make it sound and feel that way.
Every time someone does something new that people like, the floodgates open and everyone does it for awhile until it gets overplayed and then they move on.
12FPS is not new though
in general, no, but it's intentional stylistic use in 3D animation is.
Guilty Gear Xrd is 10 years old though
>Musicians who work digitally either incorporate analogue techniques into their recordings
I've always compare modulating frame rate in animation to adding groove in music. It just makes things snap and feel organic.
Nah low framerate was always a budget measure whereas analogue music is all we had at one point
Well, that's what Walt Disney did? Snow White had made him nearly bankrupt.
That's not what the issue is though, people are saying that the jittery framerates look *better* than the standard alternative, and that it's a good conscious deliberate artistic decision and not just a budget measure.
It's not a budget measure, moron
The lack of smooth in-betweens allows for more expressive and dynamic posing/movement on keys without causing a pronounced warping effect on the model in motion
Then why post this
you fricking moron
Anonymous is not a name you fricking moron
Everyone shitting on you is not the same person.
It's time to stop posting
It's not my fault you're an illiterate tourist that doesn't know how to follow reply chains
>warping effect
Model warping only happens when you animating in maya with motion curves and you let the computer fill in the in betweens. What puss in boots is doing is using no curves but posing the model every frame by hand, to emulate the dynamic posing from anime. If they wanted to they could animate on twos or ones with the posing method, or a mixture, they just don’t want to.
If you animated those scenes on 1s without a warping effect it would look stilted and angular instead of flowing and rounded. If you animated them with one, well, you'd have weird gross model warping all over the place.
2s work here where 1s doesn't because your brain fills in the gaps.
Every animation done on twos can be done on ones and work, the final outcomes' appeal might be debatable but there is no hard technical issue preventing them from being done at various framerates, even higher than 24 per second if you wanted
>The final outcome's appeal
Is what we're talking about.
There's no technical limitation in software preventing in-betweens in those scenes, but they would look like shit with in-betweens because the whole point is that the keys are designed with the gaps in mind
You would have to make the motions in those scenes slower or less exaggerated in order for it to look right with more frames. They can only be so pronounced and exaggerated because there's no in-betweens making the transition between wildly different poses look bad
>but they would look like shit with in-betweens because the whole point is that the keys are designed with the gaps in mind
I disagree, higher framerates look better as a rule while low framerates are jittery and distracting
That’s subjective
No it isn't.
Yes, and the man who made the best animation of all time and wrote the book on animation holds the same opinion
>Higher fps looks better as a rule
60fps interp videos would like a word
That's just another corner cutting hack, in good faith we are talking about a situation where all the frames are planned for and hand-made/drawn instead of arbitrarily inserted where they don't belong without oversight.
>you would have to make the motions in those scenes slower or less exaggerated in order for it to look right with more frames
In Spiderverse when miles finally learns how to use his powers they increase the frame rate to 2s instead of 3s, and it looks fine there. Even his final swing has a lot of exaggerated movement.
This is actually a meme and misinformation propagated by the movie creators for some reason, most of the movie is on 2s and most of the action is on 1s
I’m talking about miles’ character specifically is animated on 3s for most of the movie. Of course everything else is animated on 2s. And no it’s is not a meme at the end he really is animated on a higher frame rate, you’re just being disingenuous now
>specifically is animated on 3s for most of the movie
He's not, he's on twos like everyone else, then he gets into ones in action scenes. Even in the forest swinging scene, him and Peter are on the same framerate most of the time.
>but they would look like shit with in-betweens because the whole point is that the keys are designed with the gaps in mind
There's no reason why you couldn't design the same movement without the gaps in mind
Some things are meant to have gaps
And some aren’t. It’s all stylistic choice.
You are talking about the spacing of the lines, which aren't inherently tied to framerate, you could animate this same scene in 60FPS and get the same effect by grouping the new frames near the keyframes and making them subtle instead of inserting them perfectly between the extremes or keyframes.
Holy dogshit.
>If you animated those scenes on 1s without a warping effect it would look stilted and angular instead of flowing and rounded.
Not necessarily it all about how you place the key frames. Key frame positions play a huge part in how dynamic something looks. A lot of why I think Japanese CG animation looks so bad is because they’re key frames are purposefully stilted because they’re trying to emulate 2d with its budgetary holding of poses
If you animated them with (curves), well, you'd have weird gross model warping all over the place.
Not necessarily either because Pixar is able to anime light year on ones and twos perfectly. But animating with curves makes it harder to do dynamic key frames because just like tweeting, you can’t hold specific poses for like one frame, because the computer wants to smooth all the frames together.
>2s work here where 1s doesn't because your brain fills in the gaps.
Imo it’s more of a subjective thing personally I hate the 3s look, it’s too choppy they need to add more 2s in some areas so its not so Jank looking
It's not. It takes the same time to render 12 fps as it does 24 fps. Pro studios don't skip frames even if it's the same image.
>It takes the same time to render 12 fps as it does 24 fps
This is literally wrong and would break our knowledge of physics if it were true
In a CG animation that has variable frame rates, ALL 24 frames must be rendered.
Not really, you can tell the renderer to skip identical frames or do tricks like only rendering 12 FPS character movement with chroma background and overlaying it over 24FPS environment pans etc
You are such a fricking homosexual bootlicking consoymer. It's an artform first and a business second. If animation becomes a business first and an artform second, then what's the fricking point?
You need to be 18 years or older to post here, son.
Says the zoomer that's never known anything but greed.
see
>twos are an economic answer to an artistic question
Different kinds of animation techniques exist. Smooth animation is nice but sometimes low frame rates can feel more realistic and dynamic. Either way animation is a social construct so there’s only subjectivity like all art
>low frame rates can feel more realistic and dynamic
Anon I think it's time to get your eyes checked out
>Either way animation is a social construct so there’s only subjectivity like all art
I really hate how colleges teach utter dogshit like this as objective truth. Even the person who made this theory pointed out that it's a flawed and limited view of the world and shouldn't be used all the time like people do now.
There are undeniable objective principles to animation, if something is supposed to look heavy but it comes across as weightless, the animation failed objectively
It’s possibly to make something look heavy in both smooth and limited animation. Which option you choose is up to you
Yes, but to claim there is only subjectivity in animation is wrong
Okay so we agree that most people prefer higher frame rates in animation, in accordance to good spacing. So how do we feel about the fact that detailed animation costs too much to make and is not economically viable from a tv perspective?
We are discussing 3D animation where higher FPS is a matter of render farm costs, not effort or man hours
If it’s curve-animation, it’s render time. if it’s spiderverse frame-by-frame it’s man hours to pose the models every frame. I mean 2d Disney movies have been made since forever with smooth animation and they costed cheaper sometimes than cgi movies. So companies really have no excuse.
Do you have a source on Spider-Verse hand-posing models every frame
Yes, the source is me. I’m an animation student and have done cgi animation frame by frame. You have to hand pose the model frame by frame, because it relies on special poses. The computer can’t inbetween everything in the way that you want, since it’s so specific. So you have to go in and pose the model to get the arcs and secondary motion that makes it feel fluid. Sometimes though the computer will in between and I’ll go back and change some things to liven the animation up.
So no source then
>imagine thinking a computer could inbetween this
homie just use your eyes
That's a still image
Shut up this crappy site doesn’t support high quality gifs and I meant to post a gif and not an image
Post webms then gay
No I don’t have any, and I don’t know how to make webms
> has to cherry pick a single frame in low quality to make spider verse look cool
Lul, typical animation student. Was looking forward to actually seeing what you people consider to be good animation since you never post it
The mere fact that you expect the computer to be doing all the work for you says a lot - as it is also communicated by such a meaningless scene which looks like Spider-Man wallpaper. Again, this is what you get from the opposite of the Richard Williams philosophy, desperately trying to shore up the reputation of Animation that is mediocre at best
>reading comprehension
I’m arguing in favor of frame by frame animation dummy
All the gifs are too large so I’ll have to settle for this
It looks mocapped, as much of the character animation is based on the look of a tired Asian woman. What is supposed to be so special that requires low FPS
Why would kids want to look at this instead of stuff like Demon Slayer
> trying to instruct noobs to the board on how to not see my posts so they don't see the blistering criticism of your nonsense and also other meaningful things
Clearly you recognize the real point of your education is how to groom!
You don't get to call somebody dumb or tell them to shut up when your own input is so much more idiotic than what he can come up with on his worst day 15 years ago, when he was a teen who didn't waste tons of money on a worthless education
Get a real personality
It’s not mocapped you can clearly see a smear frame
> the most he can hope for is to make actually great masterful animators mad
Guaranteed animation student comment
You say it's a business but the business went into the toilet until hand-drawn animation ended in America. Meanwhile Japan at the very least has Sakuga and also really cool series like Gurren Lagann which do lots of cool stuff with the art, way cooler than shit like Home on the Range and the Princess and the Frog with little visual appeal
Audiences preferring CGI had nothing to do with it, probably was just a nice novelty, as you can see by the animation industry tanking AGAIN - we need more of a Richard Williams point of view in animation
Just a lie, if that was true doing higher FPS like The Hobbit would be no problem. They whined endlessly about that because they don't want to take on the higher standards and budget of high FPS Cinema
He lacked support and animators of his calibre
Yeah I remembered when video games had to slow down the frame rate for animations that look cool
Industry people just lack the ability to draw cool as you can see here and need to look for crutches
>Yeah I remembered when video games had to slow down the frame rate for animations that look cool
You mean like arcsys has been doing for a decade?
Man Guy is such a moron, I should have filtered him ages ago. Time to download CinemaphileX
spider man
haha look at those moves!
It would look better on twos, in fact it might be Oscar worthy then
Him again?
He never finished his film.
What a lazy hack.
>Arbitrary 12fps
By using a lower framerate and individually animating each frame with less or no tweening you can achieve animation that wouldn't normally work with 3D models or with a higher framerate.
You're simply too animation illiterate to understand what's going on around you
>By using a lower framerate and individually animating each frame with less or no tweening you can achieve animation that wouldn't normally work with 3D models or with a higher framerate.
[citation needed]
Holy shit this anon can't be serious
This ain't /misc/, dipshit
>noooo you can't just expect me to back up baseless claims!!
Lmao
>Nooooooo you have to give me a scientific paper on how the eyes see framerates!
Die ignorant
Claims need to have evidence or sources, that is how arguments work, for example here is Richard himself backing up my claims while directly contradicting yours
Anon that's a man's personal opinion on 2D animation
That you think it has anything at all to do with 3D animation speaks volumes
Wow so you are genuinely illiterate, that explains all your posts so far
Anon you posted a 2D artist admitting that some animations looked better on 2s and pretended it said 3D animation should be on 1s
>You have brain problems
>doubling down on your inability to read
Wow, I thought I'd have to argue with you but you're doing a great job of embarrassing yourself on your own
>No u
Well this got boring fast
Put up more of a fight next time
whats animating on ones and two?
It means animating 24 frames by hand for every second
Animating on twos is animating 12 frames a second
Threes are 8 frames and so on and so fourth
These demonstrations almost never show the most realistic option, which is mixing all three as the spacing demands.
>a guy spent his whole life having this opinion, therefore it is correct
>a guy basically invented modern animation, therefore his animation knowledge is superior to yours
>guy who invented animation couldn’t even convince other guys who helped invent animation to animate correctly
Pathetic
>guy who was passionate about animation since childhood vs guys who used to be car salesmen and office workers before getting into animation and just wanted to go home from work as early as possible
My dude, there isn't one objective best way of doing things
I honestly didn't mind the lower fps in Into the Spiderverse because it made the movie look like a claymation movie.
That's an insult to claymation
I swear FLCL was gods greatest gift to animation
i think it looks pretty
There's really no point in listening to the ancient rambling of some boomer animator who barely finished anything, and what he did was hardly appealing. Impressive as it may be, who cares? Everything he did is boring at best and obnoxiously unappealing at worst.
Lol funny animals and Arabian nights-its all so dated and uninspired.
Williams would never design anything like FLCL or Evangelion. all the talk about technique and skill only to make designs no one really cares about except a few animation enthusiasts. his girls are pretty, at least.
I don't care if zig zag was animated at 120 frames per second for 30 years, the character is uninspired and unappealing.
Frick western animation rules.
Boo
He animated on ones and never finished his masterpiece as a result.
There's a time and a place for everything.
I like that studios are experimenting with various techniques to give 3D animation a bit more grit. The low framerate thing is having a moment but after everyone gets their fill of overusing it, it'll go in the toolbox as 3D animation stretches into further areas.
thief and the cobbler is a pretty movie but it is really, really awful in every other way
yes even the recobbled cut