The Krakon Age

Now that it's finally over, what went wrong?

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  1. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    What didn't?

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >What didn't?
      unironically hellions

      Gillen's run. And Spurrier
      I would kill for another Gillen's run of X-men

      >Gillen's run.
      holy shit no, gillen only knows how to fellate characters now. how did his writting deteriorate this hard from journey is beyond my comprehension

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >unironically hellions
        Well besides Alex becoming Maddie's b***h again

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Mutants stopped trying to fit in with homosexual Inferior and started an ethnostate.

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Like the other two or three times they tried it?

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          genosha was just a regular country.

  2. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    name one thing that went right first

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      What didn't?

      mutants finally saying they are better than humans and not trying to fit in anymore

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        But they proved the opposite.
        One of the first things they did with complete freedom and autonomy separate from human society is create a literal hell on earth so they could make their own people suffer when they felt like it.

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          I'd appreciate if we could keep people like Reagan alive and suffering forever if we could.

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >mutants finally saying they are better than humans and not trying to fit in anymore

        That was very much one of the things that went wrong. The number one reason Krakoa was shit was that it was a total victory for Magneto: all the "heroes" of the franchise abandoned what they believe in and became mutant supremacists. That is virtually the entire reason the era went sour.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Gillen's run. And Spurrier
      I would kill for another Gillen's run of X-men

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Sinister/Dominion reveal was cool as frick, especially if you take the foreshadowing that was happening for the past few years

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        The X-Men mindlessly trusting a random precog. Remember when Carol and Tony got shit for losing their minds over a random precog in a setting that has FRICKTONS of precogs? The fricking muties jumped immediately from "trust and believe Moira, nothing weird going on here" to "Yeah sure Mr. Sinister and Apocalypse are our natural allies to be protected by law"

        The Dominion/Enigma being Sinister utterly killed it's mystique for me, it was hyped up as the thing even TOAA was stumped about and right now as far as anyone knows it's just a particularly monkey-brained Dominion by the reckoning of the other Dominions. And we know Dominions can just get kaboomed by big railguns, and lose to the Phoenix.

        It's not solely a powerlevel thing, it's a loss of mystique on par with finding out the Wizard of Oz is just some wandering conman. You can't convince me Mr. fricking Sinister is the thing God is unable to fathom giving me the impression you are dicksucking him as hard as Starlin dicksucks Thanos.

        name one thing that went right first

        Not a thing.
        Not a single. Damn. Thing.
        The only thing the Krakoa run did was solidify in my mind, there are no heroes left in Marvel*. There are just rival gangs of supervillains, and also Spider-Man who is the universe's designated martyr for no particular reason.

        Nate Grey did nothing wrong. Sex unironically turns mutants into sociopaths.

        *Except, arguably, Beta Ray Bill and Conan the Barbarian.

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >The fricking muties jumped immediately from "trust and believe Moira, nothing weird going on here"
          Well, thats one way to show you didn't read Krakoa X-Men at fricking all, and you're just parroting shit you heard from some dipshit.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            I read it. I do not in fact feel Charles did nearly enough to verify the 10 timelines in a setting where THERE ARE LITERALLY INFINITE ALTERNATE TIMELINES.

            Seriously did anyone care when Kulan Gath took over the Earth, killing both the Avengers AND the X-Men? No? Then why should I give a rat shit about the Dominion thing, enough to believe allying with fricking Apocalypse is the only way? It doesn't help that allying with Mr. Sinister turns out to literally be the source of everyone's problems in the first place.

            • 4 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              Friendly reminder that none of Moira's timelines had the X-Men actually properly working more alongside the other non-mutant superheroes or asking them for help.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Yep YEP, meanwhile the X-Men SUCCESSFULLY repelled Knull when working together with the Avengers. And apparently learned absolutely shit all from the experience because let's be honest, Knull was a bigger threat than the Dominions have been successfully presented as up to now.

                Turns out it was all just one big old LARP between the two of them. All the people whose lives they ruined either directly or indirectly, all the results of a gigantic ruse that they needed to keep going through the ages even as Genosha gets bombed, M-day occurs, and Xavier and Moira have psychotic overpowered god children with parents issues that would make Sigmund Freud blush. All a giant fake out so the X-men and mutants as a whole would just accept Krakoa as literally their only option left to survive after decades of genocide storylines.

                What a great retcon, am I right? How the entire conflict that started the series was just a big gay staged wrestling program by three creepy ethnonationalists, one of whom outright lied to his followers about a dream where mutants and humans lived side by side in a harmonious golden age for fricking decades?

                I can give you a breakdown.

                The very first story arc, despite how "interesting" it was, how many mysteries it spun immediately fricked the line going forward.

                First is the worldbuilding.

                For some reason, everyone is immediately on-board with Krakoa, going back to the status quo of Xavier/Magneto in charge etc despite the fact that a lot of them should have issues with it.

                You don't see the conflicts that should be natural to this setting. Instead, everyone is singing kumbaya by the camp fire, sharing beers and doing orgies.

                This inherently sabotages so much of what Miracle, one of Hickman's two big inspirations for this status quo interesting. That being character drama. Characters in Gaiman's Miracleman had to interact and react with each the world around them. Everyone had their own perception of it. It was what helped sell the nature of it being a hell disguised as a heaven. Not big sweeping monologues, but seeing people talk and interact, seeing what had been stolen from them by Miracleman and his cabal of new gods.

                Likewise, the worldbuilding in HOXPOX absolutely pisspoor. I'm sorry, but it is. Unlike the Banks, Herbert etc, the people whom Hickman obviously wants to emulate Hickman does not gradually reveal or build up the elements of his world, showing how characters interact with it and their perceptions of it. Instead, he just dumps a concept and then gives it a data page.

                What is ORCHIS? The greatest threat that has ever faced the X-Men. Why? Because a data page says so.

                Krakoa is now capable of producing and selling drugs! How? Why? Shut up, here's a data page.

                This set a precedent for both Hickman and other writers that absolutely fricked everything up.

                No need to establish, no need to build. Just drop an idea with some fancy charts and a textbox and you're fine.

                The second is the inspirations.

                As mentioned previously, Hickman was obviously inspired by a bunch of fantasy/sci-fi books and/or comics and wanted to try to emulate them.

                The two big ones were Gaiman's Miracleman and/or Dune.

                From Dune
                >Arrako=Arrakis
                >Moira having a "No-Place" which is undetectable to those with psychic abilities.
                >Krakoa Drugs basically being a bastardisation of Spice.
                >The whole Hellfire Company is just CHOAM
                >Moira's Golem basically being a Ghola
                >Destiny/Moira being takes on the Bene Gesserit's Future Sight.
                >The Anti AI/AI being the great enemy
                >Focus on genetics/breeding and Chimeras
                >Charles, Magneto and Moira do their best impression of the Bene Gesserit's Breeding policies
                >The whole "Krakoa is the Golden Path and other ways fail"
                >The creation of rituals like the Crucible as a way to radicalise the population
                >The Quiet Council is essentially the Landsraad
                >ORCHIS is just the Harkonnens without the pedophillia shit
                >The Arraki mutants are quite literally just the "south" parts of Arrakis
                >He was going to have totally not Paul/Leto II in the bastard child of Storm/T'Challa

                From Miracleman you have
                >The superhero become the new gods
                >Weird sex stuff
                >The utopian setting is actually hell in disguise
                >A scientist who is constantly brought back for his genius despite how dangerous he is
                >The resurrection of people across time and space
                >An organisation of anti-superheroes being made up of a collection of psychos
                >The council of superheroes deciding policy
                >The superheroes/miraclechildren are becoming less and less human

                However, he does not consider how and/or if these thematically work within the context of the X-Men/Marvel. Nor did he really think about how the writers that he took from made those ideas work within the context of their own stories. Instead, he just did what JJ Abrams did in his Star Wars films.

                Copied and pasted the aesthetics without putting any meaningful thought into it.

                (1/?)

                Even when it comes to referencing other writers and their work within X-Men and comics, Hickman fails to understand what made them great/interesting.

                Nowhere is that more apparent than in the manner that Hickman writes Mr. Sinister.

                Hickman, by his own admission, stated that Gillen was the guy who made him interested in Sinister as a character and you can tell that HOXPOX/X-Men Sinister is Hickman trying to capture that same magic.

                However, he doesn't get the central thesis of Sinister as Gillen wrote him.

                Gillen absolutely wrote Sinister as this absurd Victorian eugenist with a vicious sense of cruel humor.

                However, Gillen, always made one thing clear. This was a very well-made and tailored facade. Behind Sinister's absurdity and wit, lay a cold, calculating monster.

                Then you get Mr Sinister as done by Hickman.

                Hickman ramps up the whole vibe of Sinister being this campy, absurd and cruel creature. You can absolutely see which Sinister he takes inspiration from.

                However, he misses the central core of what Gillen's Sinister actually is.

                The camp, the absurdity, the humor are not part of who Sinister is. They were suits that he wore and he could very easily revert back to a more serious persona if needed.

                We can also see how Hickman lifted the inspirations without understanding them.

                Moira's past lives, as Liefield of all people called out, came from a sci-fi novel that Hickman hoped none of his readers had read. However, as much as it was that, Moira ultimately was a Bene Gesserit, trying to lead mankind/mutantkind to the Golden Path.

                The biggest problem was, that none of that made sense. How do you reconcile that version of the character to the one that came before.

                Hickman didn't believe he needed to. He just needed to have the manipulative woman from behind the scenes because that's what his big inspirations had.

                (2/3).

                This was a problem that inherently doomed this line/age of X-Men.

                Hickman was so wrapped up in replicating/reinterpreting his influences for X-Men without understanding how/if they could work in the context of X-Men and Marvel.

                Likewise, he was so caught up in using these ideas he didn't go into depth to explore how these ideas actually worked within their own universe and when they didn't.

                After all, this the Marvel Universe. Robots are not these great hypotheticals that they are within Dune. Likewise, there is stuff like Time Travel within Marvel, free will has been proven to exist and most importantly, there have been multiple futures not involving Hickman's bullshit.

                Secondly, Hickman never escaped or broke away from his inspirations in a meaningful way. All he did was replicate them, not understanding how and/or if he could improve on them/meaningfully change them. Instead, he just took these ideas because "that's what all the writers I like do!"

                It was also clear that few of the writers surrounding him knew what Hickman's big inspirations were or how to improve on them. As a result, we just got a confusing mess of worldbuilding, with Hickman doing his discount Dune shit and people like Howard/Duggan doing their own shit that had no thematic connection to anything Hickman was trying to set up.
                (3/3)

                [...]
                I still don't get how/if this could. It sounds so idiotic.

                Everything, EVERYTHING about Krakoa just screams that mutants retroactively deserve oppression when taken at face value. Because if you try to rationalise their motivations, they come across as even more zealous and violent than the average Marel citizen.

                AND THEY STILL WON'T ACKNOWLEDGE ULTRON'S EXISTENCE AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                That honestly was my biggest peeve with this whole setting. Hank Pym and Ultron/Vision should've been beyond important.

                We should've had shit like the Descendents from Rick Remender's Secret Avengers run, writers have inferred for years that robots have their own culture. Hell, if Hickman wanted to actually do continuity porn, Namor and Human Torch, the first heroes were a mutant and a machine.

                There was so much there.

                Yet, it all got squandered because Hickman wanted his machine gods to be akin to something out of Charles Stross' Singularity Sky, rather than building on the parts that already were there in Marvel.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >Namor and Human Torch, the first heroes were a mutant and a machine.
                damn, I fricking hate hickman for not using this

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Oh yeah, and it will forever be canon that Magneto showed up to Jerusalem of all places and declared mankind has new gods.

            Good fricking luck walking THAT one back.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Having a whole crossover because the villainness wanted to create a whole army of Brians to frick her was pretty dope

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      X-Terminators?

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        PEE PEE BOY

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Little piss man

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Cannonball was basically left out of the picture, which is good because the concept of Krakoa is mortally dubious and Cannonball is just a nice boy.

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >Cannonball visits Krakoa.
        >”Wow, this place is spiffy, can’t wait ‘till ah show ma, she loves gardenin”
        >”Sam, this is a mutant only country.”
        >”… huh?”

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Roberto and Sam are so hreat, I'm glad they dodged Krakoa's bullshit and lived on Great Value Arakis

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Someone finally looking at Marvel earth and asking the realistic question of why in God's creation should it be left to continue.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      the start was full of promise
      x of swords ending with Apocalypse weaponizing his jobbing powers was hype AF
      the early wave of books was also pretty interesting with the exception of fallen angels (frick them for cancelling x-factor when the book was selling well)
      sword should have been left to last longer, Ewing had a ton of plot points he continued on Red but was unable to follow a ton of them then (like Brand's fate and what Mysterium usage meant for the mutants)
      Exiles was great until it turned into a stealth Sabretooth mini with a shit ton of moronic alternate Sabretooths
      Sins of Sinister was a legitimately good event

      Ewing, Spurrier and Gillen hard carried the line even if Immortal X-Men started to spin its wheels pointlessly at the end of the whole thing. Spurrier and Ewing never decreased in quality

  3. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Dickman

  4. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    cyclops being a legit and willing cuck

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      It's healthy to be obsessed with this kind of thing anon. You're doing great.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Old Cyclops was better

  5. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    What ever changed? The X-Men were always the apex of cringe

  6. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    An entire X-Men era that pandered exclusively to twittergays.

    You basically can't salvage anything at that point

  7. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    letting duggan handle so much

  8. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    they didn't allow Hickman to end it

  9. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    There was a man named Martin Luther King, who said to the world "I have a dream." That dream became a strange sort of nightmare.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      "...they will be judged not by the [content of their genes,] but the content of their character."

      ignoring the very real and socially relevant differences between supers and non-supers and taking the "mutant oppression" at face-value, i'm pretty sure MLK would have hated Krakoa because of the segregation

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Professor X being based on MLK is literally just something Stan Lee made up in the 90s to claw back a little bit of the fame for the X-Men despite his run being so forgettable

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Exactly. Originally they were just good guy and bad guy. Then Claremont went in with Magneto being a bad Zionist that abandoned his ways while Xavier was a good Zionist. Then Morrison said Magneto is an irredeemable fascist. In this era it’s Magneto as a stand in leader for a sort of vague “oppressed group” concept ethnostate.

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          The tragedy of Magneto wasn't about him being well intentioned or whatever. He was meant to show that you can become the monster you hate unless you choose the higher path. Him having a tragic back story is one thing. But it's the whole cycle of hate thing.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Yeah. Honestly, James Roberts did the best version of a Magneto redemption when he wrote IDW Megatron, where you saw how someone could absolutely become a monster, even with the best of intentions and dealing with the subsequent aftermath of that.

            • 4 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              That Autobot symbol looks bummed out.

            • 4 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              This is why Magneto's redemption arcs never ring true to me, he doesn't reflect on how many innocent people he's killed, not even when Claremont was writing him.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                You've gotta love how Resurrection of Magneto shows all his victims and he "feels bad" about them, and then Storm basically tells him to get over it and then he does

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                All the victims that were shown were anti-mutant bigots or flunkies, innocents that he killed were conveniently left out.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                What about when he sunk that sub, launched a massive EMP on earth or blew up Manhattan.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                They're not mentioned or given names.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Blowing up Manhattan happened in a different timeline, if you're referring to the end of Morrison's run.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Whatchu talking about Willis , Planet X is still canon to 616

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Not with anyone. He sees EVERYONE as an enemy. He doesn't do things with a heavy heart or acts of desperation. He shows no regret.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                You know it's crazy when Eddie Brock shows remorse for his actions over Magneto.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                You know what's a thing I miss because I think it adds a lot to Magneto? Luna being powerless. I love the idea of Magneto's son, who used to be noted as looking like him, marrying into a royal family of a society that is essentially what Magneto wants to bring into the world...only to have a plain ordinary "flatscan" granddaughter. It's cliche but man, that's good shit.

                Facts.

                The worst is all the people going "nooo they're fascist eugenists, you can't enjoy THAT"

                >The worst is all the people going "nooo they're fascist eugenists, you can't enjoy THAT"

                The problem with this is they're still treated as morally in the right by both Marvel and the fanbase. It'd be one thing if you wanted a villain arc for the team as a whole but instead we get "This is so heckin' valid and I feel so represented as a [minority group]" by people who somehow ignore the gladiator pit or the actual card carrying Nazis going on about their "master race"

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Idk if we read the same run but throughout the entire run Krakoa has been presented as a project doomed to fail due to it's moral failings.

                I think we see this as early as HoX and PoX when Xavier and Magneto are stringing Raven along regarding Mystique.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Then why is the fall of Krakoa not because of the actions of its populace but because of the false flag attacks that those meanies Orchis conducted? Shit, if Krakoa is supposed to be this fresh and innovative new setting for the X-Men, why did there have to be a new human fronted anti-mutant group in the first place?

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                I think Krakoa fell to Orchis due to the failings of the mutants in charge. I don't think what I described requires that there be no antagonistic force applying pressure.

                Xavier and Magneto are pretty personally responsible for Sinister being on the council, a nimrod being brought online and Moira being radicalized against them. There also responsible for Sabretooth fricking up a bunch of mutants during the fall.

                The army led by Genesis against Arrako is really the only antagonistic force which no ones failing is responsible for.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Should’ve resurrected Cassandra Nova and put her on the council for the laughs.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                She was resurrected, but unfortunately she was confined to a fricking Orlando book and was left stranded in the far, far, far past.

                And still, even written by a shit writer like that, she had some neat moments in the book. I guess smug characters like that lend themselves to it.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                that's what HoX sets up - it's not how they follow through. PoX genuinely undermines that message; it happens that early. the 'amoral rot causing failure' thing is completely undermined by the threat of humans AND and the AI threat both presented all the way back in PoX. trivial (genuinely, for the scales we're talking about here) things like stringing Raven along were not enough to sustain that theme, and while it was fully abandoned after Hickman left, Hickman himself had already shot himself in the foot by the second book in regards to it.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >You know what's a thing I miss because I think it adds a lot to Magneto? Luna being powerless. I love the idea of Magneto's son, who used to be noted as looking like him, marrying into a royal family of a society that is essentially what Magneto wants to bring into the world...only to have a plain ordinary "flatscan" granddaughter. It's cliche but man, that's good shit.
                IIRC there were literally just two stories with both Magneto and Luna in. It's one of those ideas that readers think is more important than it really was because it sounds like it should be important (for the most part this was also true for the twins getting retconned into being his kids).

                More was done with Magneto's Acolytes marking Luna for death for being human than was ever done with how he related to her.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Plus Luna wouldn't care either way since she's not his biological granddaughter and also not a mutant. Her being non-powered or not isn't an issue for him.

                And that's not even going into what an absolute dogshit father Magneto is anyway. It always makes me lol when they write Polaris or the Twins being all loving and respectful towards him even though he's treated them all like expendable garbage in the past.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                That doesn't change what I said. I know, I think it's a great idea they didn't do squat with.

                [...]
                [...]
                The key takeaway from the first Sentinel story that EVERY MODERN CREATOR IGNORES is that when Xavier reads this he goes

                "Wow, this guy is making up insane racist shit about mutants, I need to expose him as the nutjob he is"

                Today it's "I will debate this man to prove the genetic superiority of mutants and tell the public that our inevitable triumph is nothing to fear as they will all die out peacefully"

                See the difference, X-Writers?

                Hitting the nail on the head

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >I think it's a great idea they didn't do squat with.
                As a general rule of thumb if Marvel didn't do squat with an idea decades ago when they were actually good, they're not likely to do anything worthwhile with it in the future. Thus the twins, and by extension Luna, Wiccan and Speed all being unrelated to Magneto is no great loss at all.

                And like

                Plus Luna wouldn't care either way since she's not his biological granddaughter and also not a mutant. Her being non-powered or not isn't an issue for him.

                And that's not even going into what an absolute dogshit father Magneto is anyway. It always makes me lol when they write Polaris or the Twins being all loving and respectful towards him even though he's treated them all like expendable garbage in the past.

                says, the current books handling of the way Lorna and the twins are with Magneto is moronic, it's pandering to delusional casuals who don't care about the actual history between them.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >he doesn't reflect on how many innocent people he's killed
                He did in the current one. The problem is they never get to the root of the character's problem and inability to actually stay good, his desire for power and domination over humans AND mutants

  10. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Are they dead?

  11. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Hickman isn't a good writer for an ongoing run.

    I'm sorry but he just isn't. He's bad at character voices and he usually just over-focuses on his beloved intellectual stoic characters. His world building is just stuff he thinks sound smart and cool but are actually really dumb ideas wrapped in a lot of fancy words and charts. He can't stick a landing because he focuses entirely on setup. I am convinced he should stick to short minis or very short arcs, and I think he's realized it because he's only doing one-shots and minis from now on.

    Hox/PoX should have been an AU future timeline, a sort of vision of what things could become, not the main present one. That way all the plot holes wouldn't matter as you would just let Hickman tell his story and then leave and then that timeline can get revisited regularly like with Age of Apocalypse and Days of Future Past.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Yep. I thought his F4 run was hyped too highly around here

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        I dunno. It was pretty good I think. The FF are a much smaller team though so maybe it just works out better when you have less characters to juggle. But even then I wouldn't list it as one of the goat runs either. Never saw the appeal in his Avengers.

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          The thing about the FF is that the character voices are the hardest to get wrong. It's like a sitcom. Everyone is well-defined for whoever writes them.

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        I dunno. It was pretty good I think. The FF are a much smaller team though so maybe it just works out better when you have less characters to juggle. But even then I wouldn't list it as one of the goat runs either. Never saw the appeal in his Avengers.

        His FF is my favorite long-form run he's done. He only has a handful of characters and he doesn't try to majorly reinvent anyone for it. He writes a boss Doom but he's no different from Kirby or Byrne Doom except maybe a little grander in scope. And Reed is an ideal Hickman protagonist since he loves intellectual autists. However I don't think even his FF really has a satisfying conclusion, but you notice it less because it's not trying to be a big arc as much.

        His Avengers is pretty terrible. Meandering as frick, overbloated with leftover characters from the JLA pitch it originally was, trying way too hard to be big and cosmic and literally only ending in a giant crossover. I barely see anybody talk about it anymore either. Just such a waste

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >Try reading his Avengers run
          >Boring arc after boring arc
          >Infinity being such a nothing event
          All I got from reading his Avengers is the guy really wanted to write Cannonball and Sunspot, the girl with the Shi'ar goggles and Shang-Chi. Oh, and that he nost likely got mad when Peter was replaced with Otto since he just cut him fron the book soon after the event.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Hickman was allegedly forced by editorial to include the entire MCU lineup of the Avengers even though he had very few plans for them and very little interest. Some of it is apparently also salvaged from his DC pitch which is why he needed a Superman expy (Hyperion).

            Infinity has no excuse. I know it only exists because Infinity War was coming to theatres but it's such a big nothing of an event and Hickman cannot write a compelling Thanos to save his life. Also the Builders being built up (yeah yeah) and then utterly demolished as mid-level bosses was garbage. He also has so many OCs in there that are boring power sets with barely any personality like Captain Universe, Ex Nihilo, manifold, Starbrand etc.

            NOBODY talks about this run anymore.

            >And Reed is an ideal Hickman protagonist since he loves intellectual autists.
            It's interesting that he actually understand that Reed isn't a complete SCIENCE autist like he's often parodied into being. He wrote a very family first focused Reed. It's just that Reed, being Reed, sees science as a way to help his family and he's so busy trying to help them that he gets lost in his work.

            Yes, I think Hickman really is at his best when writing titles with an autistic "smart" main character (or more with Doom and Val). But the X-Men isn't that and has never been that, it's always been a fly by the seat of your pants franchise with dumb human characters doing dumb human frickups. There's a reason the fan-favorite X-man character is Wolverine and not Xavier

            • 4 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              To be 100% honest, if Hickman had just gone and written New Avengers as a continuation of his FF stuff into Secret Wars his "reputation" at Marvel would be much better. I find it funny that a friend asked me what he should read to REALLY understand Secret Wars, I sent him a reading order that I found and then I went "Oh but, maybe you don't want to read his Avengers stuff, it's really bad".

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Calling it a saga is being real fricking generous. Al Ewing can weave threads through his stuff but man Hickman's threads are not great.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                It doesn't feel like there's any goal or through plot at all. It's completely lacking in a sense of connection. Like you could call the Annihilation to Thanos Imperative era a SAGA. But Hickman is just him landing on books and leaving just as quickly. He'll have ONE idea for them.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Al can work with anyones garbage. Do we even know why Hickman left? And did Hickman always dream about X-Men having a sword fight tournament, or was the event forced by Marvel?

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                ousted/outvoted by the other writers on ending it

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                He left because editorial kept fricking with his plans.

                Yeah, people who keep acting like Hickman's original vision would have saved things don't know what they're talking about. Assuming he actually had one in the first place, it'd just be a bunch of sci fi concepts without an emotional core.

                ... honestly back in the original Ultimate Comics, I doubt he wrote out how the Maker would be beaten before he left

                He would probably have had a similar ending to what we got. The big rumor is that he would have had the Phalanx be the force behind orchis.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                And Black Panther/Storm bastard. Yuck. Seriously, frick hickman

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Gillen's run. And Spurrier
                I would kill for another Gillen's run of X-men

                Their shit on Krakoa-Men sucked too.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                time runs out (new avengers mostly) is my fav part

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                i hate that my old reddit account is listed on this image because this reading order is garbage and was outdated by the Omnibus release.

            • 4 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              Nah, I still hear people say he wrote the best Avengers run, granted that's because the only other Avengers run they read was Bendis but still.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Like choosing between diarrhea and regular shit

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                I was arguing with some dude on Cinemaphile the other day who kept insisting Secret Wars was a masterpiece.

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >And Reed is an ideal Hickman protagonist since he loves intellectual autists.
          It's interesting that he actually understand that Reed isn't a complete SCIENCE autist like he's often parodied into being. He wrote a very family first focused Reed. It's just that Reed, being Reed, sees science as a way to help his family and he's so busy trying to help them that he gets lost in his work.

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >overbloated with leftover characters from the JLA pitch it originally was
          Anyplace I can read and learn more about this?

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            I read that it was a Legion of super-heroes pitch.

            • 4 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              That's Krakoa, it was supposed to be Brainiac 13 or w/e bringing all past LOSH members back.

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        His F4 works because he's writing semi-autistic characters like Reed, Doom, grown up Franklin, Reed's dad and Valeria who all seem to be operating on another plane with respects to the rest of the characters in his run. No one comments on how good Hickman's Ben is or how well he wrote Johnny because, well, he didn't. It's all about the Reed/Doom/Valeria stuff. His F4 just goes the extra mile on autistic ridiculous pseudo science and that's why it works, despite being weak in regards to many other aspects. Same as with his Illuminati stuff.

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        good ideas that lost steam

        f4 is the only marvel property that really suits him, it can be totally episodic wild sci-fi

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >f4 is the only marvel property that really suits him, it can be totally episodic wild sci-fi

          I don't see why other super hero teams can't follow that trend. People try to make X-men especially out to be more than it ever needed to be.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            f4 touches all the other parts of marvel without really tainting their water, x-books are weighed down by all the characters and x-lore unless you go full cosmic. with f4 you can just do stories with reed/sue/johnny/ben and it's fine, there isn't much to break.

            • 4 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              >x-books are weighed down by all the characters and x-lore
              Take a page from Claremont and send them to Limbo/Space/Another Country/Alaska/The Middle of the Desert/Scotland/Alternate Future/Alternate Reality.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                I liked Sins of Sinister

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                imagine being assigned x-men, there's probably a thousand books of built up lore and context and 100 characters easy. there's no way i could keep track of all that.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                It is my belief that any writer who values his own creative freedom would hate being assigned either X-Men or Spider-Man.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                That's essentially what Fraction, Brubaker, and Lemire said about writing X-Men.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Yeah, people who keep acting like Hickman's original vision would have saved things don't know what they're talking about. Assuming he actually had one in the first place, it'd just be a bunch of sci fi concepts without an emotional core.

      ... honestly back in the original Ultimate Comics, I doubt he wrote out how the Maker would be beaten before he left

  12. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Lot of decent concepts that went absolutely nowhere or were used by writers to fellate themselves.

  13. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    What went wrong was it was written in the wrong time by the wrong people.
    It solidified one answer in my mind about the X-Books. Whether you can bring back the magic. You can't. They're too far gone and too washed.

  14. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    What went wrong fundamentally is that mutants went mask off and literally showed and took a stance that they were actual superior to boring humanity. A notion of which would make any if all racial supremacists blush. They became a supremacist fantasy.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      starting krakoa with unchecked arrogance, having someone like max give a speech that sounds like israelite propaganda, mutants fricking around in avenues they shouldnt be( like emma mindfricking politicians), the straight up mutant superiority angle( betsy talking down to brian STILL pisses me off) the combination of mutants acting like they were immorrtal and above humans, then repeating all the ususal human failure tropes, fricking, having children and just abandoning said children like a bunch of deadbeats, then after all that having galas to really throw it in humanities face.

      if orchis wasnt a thing there would have still been a mutant war, only it would have been a lot harder to play the humans as the villains

      there's always been a real-world supremacist angle to mutants (the x-gene is pretty eugenic in concept, and that's too baked-in to be feasible to fix) that most X-fans don't like to talk or think about.

      something new with Krakoa is a chunk of those same fans ended up latched on to that angle unwittingly. Hickman's subtext wasn't an overt enough indictment of the mutants' behavior in HoX to dampen enthusiasm, PoX distracted from it with a vastly different conflict where the supremacists were overtly the protagonists, and some of the early excitement radicalized a small but terminally online part of the fandom into mutant separatists, which later writers reflected.

      This was a problem that inherently doomed this line/age of X-Men.

      Hickman was so wrapped up in replicating/reinterpreting his influences for X-Men without understanding how/if they could work in the context of X-Men and Marvel.

      Likewise, he was so caught up in using these ideas he didn't go into depth to explore how these ideas actually worked within their own universe and when they didn't.

      After all, this the Marvel Universe. Robots are not these great hypotheticals that they are within Dune. Likewise, there is stuff like Time Travel within Marvel, free will has been proven to exist and most importantly, there have been multiple futures not involving Hickman's bullshit.

      Secondly, Hickman never escaped or broke away from his inspirations in a meaningful way. All he did was replicate them, not understanding how and/or if he could improve on them/meaningfully change them. Instead, he just took these ideas because "that's what all the writers I like do!"

      It was also clear that few of the writers surrounding him knew what Hickman's big inspirations were or how to improve on them. As a result, we just got a confusing mess of worldbuilding, with Hickman doing his discount Dune shit and people like Howard/Duggan doing their own shit that had no thematic connection to anything Hickman was trying to set up.
      (3/3)

      [...]
      I still don't get how/if this could. It sounds so idiotic.

      it might be controversial here, but i think HoX was recoverable until PoX buried and muddled the themes set up in HoX under a cosmic sci-fi mess.

      i think X-fans were too focused on the art and what they saw as "Krakoa can FINALLY be a mutant win!" at the end of PoX to think much deeper at first, and by the time they realized what they were cheering for, any hope of a less supremacist Krakoa was already dead.

      one thing you've got to keep in mind is the people loudly complaining online about Krakoa ending are those who A) genuinely buy into the eugenic ethnostate angle or B) delude themselves that Krakoa isn't a eugenicist ethnostate run by war criminals that has no respect for national or international laws and borders.

      the early excitement was from group B, and nobody really cared about the AI crap outside of the few holding out hope that it would ultimately lead to proving Moira wrong.

      Too many comics. Krakoa started as a clean line with 6 comics supposedly exploring the era, then it exploded into like 15 comics, before crashing down to like 5 comics constantly assaulted by mini-series and one-shots. And even in the beginning, only like 3 at most of the original 6 comics were worth reading.

      The writers had a lot of ideas but no one of incorporating it into the actual story. Yeah, a story where Sabertooth escapes with a bunch of outlaws sounds cool, or Bishop starting a war school, but then it's regulated to a mini where it's not allowed to do anything.

      while they did overextend, i think a lot of the drop-off was people who eventually realized Krakoa's supremacist rot wasn't getting fixed (which was how many were justifying HoX/PoX to themselves) as it became clear the writers (and the characters under their pens) agreed with Moira, and instead of metastasizing into group A, most just left the X-books for the era.

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >while they did overextend, i think a lot of the drop-off was people who eventually realized Krakoa's supremacist rot wasn't getting fixed (which was how many were justifying HoX/PoX to themselves) as it became clear the writers (and the characters under their pens) agreed with Moira, and instead of metastasizing into group A, most just left the X-books for the era.

        I know I personally kept quiet and ignored the X-books and fanbase because I didn't want to deal with the blowback for hating Krakoa on a fundamental level. I could never get a good read on the X-Men fanbase since a lot of reactions to Krakoa really center around IdMisc so I was never sure if I had a common position or not,

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >that has no respect for national or international laws and borders.
        This is actually incredibly based, the Westphalian system is isn't eternal, and nations becoming global tribes tied to a homeland nucleus is the future.

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          see, the problem is Krakoa expected everybody else to still respect their border and laws. they wanted all the benefits of having that system without having to follow it.

          they're not 'based no-borders transnationalists,' they're literally routinely border- and customs-violating (everyone would be rightly pissed at their teleporting) racial supremacists living in a segregated, walled (by the sea and active defenses) compound calling itself a new nation.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Doom's reaction was pretty good

            • 4 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              It’s honestly kind of hilarious how this whole drama just ended in Franklin being retconned out of being a mutant, rendering the whole affair pointless. Did Cyclops and Kitty ever interact or check up on him once that issue came out, they were the biggest names trying to get Franklin to the island. Slott is such a manchild, why are there so many writers who hate sharing characters that they didn’t create. Jason did the same thing to Ewing on Immortal Hulk too with monster She Hulk and whatever happened to Ross.

            • 4 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              I hate the lowercase bullshit. The only character that should speak in lowercase is The Maker.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Lettering is an underappreciated art.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                It is. Do any comics in the big two get hand lettered anymore? Do any even get hand drawn. It all just feels so sterile. It cheapens the entire experience. It’s almost as bad as the Mid 90s- Mid 2000s era of ugly digital coloring that made everything a brown mess.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Seriously it looks like they just opened up MS paint and threw it in a word balloon.

            • 4 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              -premise is fascist ethnostate
              -almost everything done with beast was absolute garbage
              -too many titles
              -x-men green had no goal
              -needless gala, ugly and garish clothes no one asked for
              -moira turned in to a psycho
              -sinister was presented as a lovable oaf, while trying to murder the council
              -xavier shenanigans
              -storm powerwanking, and leading mutants on a planet when she had assaulted beast for suggesting mutants on another planet in IvX
              -O.R.C.H.I.S. was simultaneously more powerful than H.Y.D.R.A. but also somehow stupid
              -mother righteous was completely superfluous and forced
              -the ancient times looking mutants on another planet was superfluous
              -nightcrawler origin retcon is putrid shit
              -israeli magneto diatribe reminiscent of anti-semitic elder protocols of zion propaganda
              -selling the plant meds should have changed earth 616's society but it didn't
              -nightcrawler as spider-man only could have worked under specific circumstances but was ill conceived and needless if there were already multiple spider-man characters
              -two x-23s
              -resurrection shenanigans means no stakes
              -dark beast back from the dead for the second time just to shut down rational thinking people who like beast
              -was on the whole pseudo-intellectual
              -xavier reveals he will never allow a nuclear holocaust, which is based, but then allows himself to be arrested, which would prevent him from stopping a nuclear holocaust
              -nightcrawler hugs rightclops when rightclops and magneto was what directly lead to krakoa
              -cassandra nova even being allowed in the first place was an extreme oversight
              -after all magneto's crimes he's given a cliche redemption
              -uninspired spaceship that looked like swordfish 2 from cowboy bebop
              -cyclops and jean sparing the lives of O.R.C.H.I.S. and talking about saving the fascists
              -comparing krakoa to apartheid israel won't age well

              this was weird, because krakoa made a writing and culture for mutants, then it was abandoned and never even shown to doom

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                oh i forgot
                x-men green took out oil rigs but then reimbursed the company or did something or other that negated their actions and still served the oil companies. all i know is that it was something stupid

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Oh yeah, you gotta love how they thing everyone one the planet has to obey their laws any time a mutant is involved in any capacity. Could be a national of any place on the planet with no history of mutants in their family who's never even heard of the x-men and all of sudden the mutant gods decide they need to control them.

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >while they did overextend, i think a lot of the drop-off was people who eventually realized Krakoa's supremacist rot wasn't getting fixed (which was how many were justifying HoX/PoX to themselves) as it became clear the writers (and the characters under their pens) agreed with Moira, and instead of metastasizing into group A, most just left the X-books for the era.

        The writers defiantly did not agree with Moira. Moira was killed off the instant Hickman left and her character was assassinated. I do think the writers got lost in the sauce of Krakoa. They constantly wanted to "explore" Krakoa but didn't have the world-building skills necessary. They could come up with ideas, like Dark X-Men, but it almost immediately goes nowhere.

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          i was referring to Moira as presented in HoX/PoX regarding her opinions on human/mutant relations (i.e. 'don't have any that aren't overtly supremacist against humans'). they very much kept that in practice, without any real dissent from the characters.

          it's a problem that gets set up in HoX and actually continues through Hickman leaving.

          (real talk, i was running out of characters so i was using Moira as a shorthand for their mutant separatism/supremacy - she is the main source of it as far as the characters are concerned in HoX/PoX, after all)

  15. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Too many comics. Krakoa started as a clean line with 6 comics supposedly exploring the era, then it exploded into like 15 comics, before crashing down to like 5 comics constantly assaulted by mini-series and one-shots. And even in the beginning, only like 3 at most of the original 6 comics were worth reading.

    The writers had a lot of ideas but no one of incorporating it into the actual story. Yeah, a story where Sabertooth escapes with a bunch of outlaws sounds cool, or Bishop starting a war school, but then it's regulated to a mini where it's not allowed to do anything.

  16. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    It's not over until a culling begins.

  17. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    The existence of nostalgiacucks
    Enjoy From The Asses

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Only based post in this thread
      Brevoort's line will flop and people that kept begging for this era to end will be left to cry over how shit the new comics are

  18. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    starting krakoa with unchecked arrogance, having someone like max give a speech that sounds like israelite propaganda, mutants fricking around in avenues they shouldnt be( like emma mindfricking politicians), the straight up mutant superiority angle( betsy talking down to brian STILL pisses me off) the combination of mutants acting like they were immorrtal and above humans, then repeating all the ususal human failure tropes, fricking, having children and just abandoning said children like a bunch of deadbeats, then after all that having galas to really throw it in humanities face.

    if orchis wasnt a thing there would have still been a mutant war, only it would have been a lot harder to play the humans as the villains

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >having someone like max give a speech that sounds like israelite propaganda
      Anti-semt.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >there would have still been a mutant war
      Really should have been what happened, it should have been about the Fall of Eden because they let all the snakes in. You have all these psychos in untouchable positions of power, constant attacks from outside enemies and a past of radicalizing events, the Hellfire Gala attack should have been what caused dudes like Exodus to make a move with their factions

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      They never fricking established Krakoa as a normal setting. Apparently there were over 200,000 people living there for multiple years in a post scarcity environment but we don't know how they spent that time at all.

      People kept b***hing about writers drinking the kool-aid but if you actually read the books you'd find that the opposite is true, they were all so into writing about what was wrong with Krakoa that they never established what was right outside of vague platitudes.

      So basically, we can make fun of the X-gays on Twitter and CBR for being media illiterate.

  19. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    The Kratom Age was more interesting

  20. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Just about everything

  21. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    They never fricking established Krakoa as a normal setting. Apparently there were over 200,000 people living there for multiple years in a post scarcity environment but we don't know how they spent that time at all.

    People kept b***hing about writers drinking the kool-aid but if you actually read the books you'd find that the opposite is true, they were all so into writing about what was wrong with Krakoa that they never established what was right outside of vague platitudes.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      They dropped the timeline because it caused continuity issues with the rest of Marvel and gave them an avenue to ignore the X-books. But frick if those numbers don't paint an absolute bleak portrait of Krakoa. 200,000 mutants would be something like 1% of the mutant population. Forget a mutant homeland, it was a private community of the mutant elite.

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        How many mutants exist in the marvel universe?

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          A gorrillion

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          As a statistic, or ones that actually are worth a damn?

  22. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >Now that it's finally over

    Is it? The Orchis attack was months ago and I'm pretty sure X is STILL falling.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Orchis war ended last week.
      Enigma war ended this week.
      We just have the denouement left in next week's final X-Men issue (and I guess Kamala's mini's last issue too)

  23. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Nothing

  24. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Everything

  25. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    I can give you a breakdown.

    The very first story arc, despite how "interesting" it was, how many mysteries it spun immediately fricked the line going forward.

    First is the worldbuilding.

    For some reason, everyone is immediately on-board with Krakoa, going back to the status quo of Xavier/Magneto in charge etc despite the fact that a lot of them should have issues with it.

    You don't see the conflicts that should be natural to this setting. Instead, everyone is singing kumbaya by the camp fire, sharing beers and doing orgies.

    This inherently sabotages so much of what Miracle, one of Hickman's two big inspirations for this status quo interesting. That being character drama. Characters in Gaiman's Miracleman had to interact and react with each the world around them. Everyone had their own perception of it. It was what helped sell the nature of it being a hell disguised as a heaven. Not big sweeping monologues, but seeing people talk and interact, seeing what had been stolen from them by Miracleman and his cabal of new gods.

    Likewise, the worldbuilding in HOXPOX absolutely pisspoor. I'm sorry, but it is. Unlike the Banks, Herbert etc, the people whom Hickman obviously wants to emulate Hickman does not gradually reveal or build up the elements of his world, showing how characters interact with it and their perceptions of it. Instead, he just dumps a concept and then gives it a data page.

    What is ORCHIS? The greatest threat that has ever faced the X-Men. Why? Because a data page says so.

    Krakoa is now capable of producing and selling drugs! How? Why? Shut up, here's a data page.

    This set a precedent for both Hickman and other writers that absolutely fricked everything up.

    No need to establish, no need to build. Just drop an idea with some fancy charts and a textbox and you're fine.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      The second is the inspirations.

      As mentioned previously, Hickman was obviously inspired by a bunch of fantasy/sci-fi books and/or comics and wanted to try to emulate them.

      The two big ones were Gaiman's Miracleman and/or Dune.

      From Dune
      >Arrako=Arrakis
      >Moira having a "No-Place" which is undetectable to those with psychic abilities.
      >Krakoa Drugs basically being a bastardisation of Spice.
      >The whole Hellfire Company is just CHOAM
      >Moira's Golem basically being a Ghola
      >Destiny/Moira being takes on the Bene Gesserit's Future Sight.
      >The Anti AI/AI being the great enemy
      >Focus on genetics/breeding and Chimeras
      >Charles, Magneto and Moira do their best impression of the Bene Gesserit's Breeding policies
      >The whole "Krakoa is the Golden Path and other ways fail"
      >The creation of rituals like the Crucible as a way to radicalise the population
      >The Quiet Council is essentially the Landsraad
      >ORCHIS is just the Harkonnens without the pedophillia shit
      >The Arraki mutants are quite literally just the "south" parts of Arrakis
      >He was going to have totally not Paul/Leto II in the bastard child of Storm/T'Challa

      From Miracleman you have
      >The superhero become the new gods
      >Weird sex stuff
      >The utopian setting is actually hell in disguise
      >A scientist who is constantly brought back for his genius despite how dangerous he is
      >The resurrection of people across time and space
      >An organisation of anti-superheroes being made up of a collection of psychos
      >The council of superheroes deciding policy
      >The superheroes/miraclechildren are becoming less and less human

      However, he does not consider how and/or if these thematically work within the context of the X-Men/Marvel. Nor did he really think about how the writers that he took from made those ideas work within the context of their own stories. Instead, he just did what JJ Abrams did in his Star Wars films.

      Copied and pasted the aesthetics without putting any meaningful thought into it.

      (1/?)

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        I can give you a breakdown.

        The very first story arc, despite how "interesting" it was, how many mysteries it spun immediately fricked the line going forward.

        First is the worldbuilding.

        For some reason, everyone is immediately on-board with Krakoa, going back to the status quo of Xavier/Magneto in charge etc despite the fact that a lot of them should have issues with it.

        You don't see the conflicts that should be natural to this setting. Instead, everyone is singing kumbaya by the camp fire, sharing beers and doing orgies.

        This inherently sabotages so much of what Miracle, one of Hickman's two big inspirations for this status quo interesting. That being character drama. Characters in Gaiman's Miracleman had to interact and react with each the world around them. Everyone had their own perception of it. It was what helped sell the nature of it being a hell disguised as a heaven. Not big sweeping monologues, but seeing people talk and interact, seeing what had been stolen from them by Miracleman and his cabal of new gods.

        Likewise, the worldbuilding in HOXPOX absolutely pisspoor. I'm sorry, but it is. Unlike the Banks, Herbert etc, the people whom Hickman obviously wants to emulate Hickman does not gradually reveal or build up the elements of his world, showing how characters interact with it and their perceptions of it. Instead, he just dumps a concept and then gives it a data page.

        What is ORCHIS? The greatest threat that has ever faced the X-Men. Why? Because a data page says so.

        Krakoa is now capable of producing and selling drugs! How? Why? Shut up, here's a data page.

        This set a precedent for both Hickman and other writers that absolutely fricked everything up.

        No need to establish, no need to build. Just drop an idea with some fancy charts and a textbox and you're fine.

        his x-men stuff was originally a losh pitch with moira being brainy and the big twist being that every version of the legion was all in one universe and brainy kept cloning everyone

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Even when it comes to referencing other writers and their work within X-Men and comics, Hickman fails to understand what made them great/interesting.

        Nowhere is that more apparent than in the manner that Hickman writes Mr. Sinister.

        Hickman, by his own admission, stated that Gillen was the guy who made him interested in Sinister as a character and you can tell that HOXPOX/X-Men Sinister is Hickman trying to capture that same magic.

        However, he doesn't get the central thesis of Sinister as Gillen wrote him.

        Gillen absolutely wrote Sinister as this absurd Victorian eugenist with a vicious sense of cruel humor.

        However, Gillen, always made one thing clear. This was a very well-made and tailored facade. Behind Sinister's absurdity and wit, lay a cold, calculating monster.

        Then you get Mr Sinister as done by Hickman.

        Hickman ramps up the whole vibe of Sinister being this campy, absurd and cruel creature. You can absolutely see which Sinister he takes inspiration from.

        However, he misses the central core of what Gillen's Sinister actually is.

        The camp, the absurdity, the humor are not part of who Sinister is. They were suits that he wore and he could very easily revert back to a more serious persona if needed.

        We can also see how Hickman lifted the inspirations without understanding them.

        Moira's past lives, as Liefield of all people called out, came from a sci-fi novel that Hickman hoped none of his readers had read. However, as much as it was that, Moira ultimately was a Bene Gesserit, trying to lead mankind/mutantkind to the Golden Path.

        The biggest problem was, that none of that made sense. How do you reconcile that version of the character to the one that came before.

        Hickman didn't believe he needed to. He just needed to have the manipulative woman from behind the scenes because that's what his big inspirations had.

        (2/3).

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          This was a problem that inherently doomed this line/age of X-Men.

          Hickman was so wrapped up in replicating/reinterpreting his influences for X-Men without understanding how/if they could work in the context of X-Men and Marvel.

          Likewise, he was so caught up in using these ideas he didn't go into depth to explore how these ideas actually worked within their own universe and when they didn't.

          After all, this the Marvel Universe. Robots are not these great hypotheticals that they are within Dune. Likewise, there is stuff like Time Travel within Marvel, free will has been proven to exist and most importantly, there have been multiple futures not involving Hickman's bullshit.

          Secondly, Hickman never escaped or broke away from his inspirations in a meaningful way. All he did was replicate them, not understanding how and/or if he could improve on them/meaningfully change them. Instead, he just took these ideas because "that's what all the writers I like do!"

          It was also clear that few of the writers surrounding him knew what Hickman's big inspirations were or how to improve on them. As a result, we just got a confusing mess of worldbuilding, with Hickman doing his discount Dune shit and people like Howard/Duggan doing their own shit that had no thematic connection to anything Hickman was trying to set up.
          (3/3)

          [...]
          his x-men stuff was originally a losh pitch with moira being brainy and the big twist being that every version of the legion was all in one universe and brainy kept cloning everyone

          I still don't get how/if this could. It sounds so idiotic.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            We finally come to the last reason that this whole thing was doomed from the outset. The characterisation and writing.

            Hickman inherently fricked himself and other writers over with the characterisation. Everyone was cool with Krakoa, there was no conflicts even between the people who should naturally despise each other. Instead they just became archetypes who would witness and react to Hickman's worldbuilding.

            It is aid that one of Hickman's favourite franchises is LOSH and you can see how he would write them in this

            That inherently creates problems especially for X-Men as a franchise. X-Men, from Claremont onwards is built on relationships between multifaceted characters. Cyclops is not simply "the leader", Wolverine is not "the wild man" etc.

            But for this era, they were just archetypes, who would dialogue which sounds like the bastard child of McCarthy's soliloquies and the self-congratulatory dickishness of Millar characters. There were not character arcs that seemed right (seriously, the fact that Synch, a guy who literally died to save his team has a monologue about how that's such a human way to die and living is the mutant way is fricking idiotic) or they were non-existent.

            The second is the storytelling itself. I know it's a meme but holy frick did Remender sum Hickman up.

            Hickman spent his entire stay of X-Men trying to show how clever he was and spread endless mysteries.

            There's a reason that the X-Men start on Krakoa and Hickman constantly references Morrison openly with shit like Xavier in Cassandra Nova's safari outfit. It was his 'subtle' way of boasting "Oh, this is going to be a massive change, and I'm going to have the impact on the X-Men the same way that guys like Morrison and Claremont did!"

            The only problem is that sort of wankery is... it's not a story. That's just being being an butthole convinced of his intelligence and importance.

            But that attitude is what permeates HOXPOX and Hickman's subsequent X-Men shit.

            (1/2)

            • 4 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              Hickman didn't tell stories. He had characters interact with something with the whole question of "Will this be important. Keep reading and you'll find out!" concluding every issue. Every story was built to set up an ill-defined mystery or set up a Chekov's gun that Hickman assured us, any day, would go off. That we'd see the stuff he promised in HOXPOX.

              There was a massive amount of characters... but they didn't grow, develop or change. They were barely even characters and there was barely a throughline with the plot. ORCHIS is this big threat... that Hickman barely touches on ever again. In fact, ORCHIS is such a poorly defined and written organisation that Hickman needed to drop a data page about how they were actually cool. Vulcan is this unstable maniac... and not only is the mystery poorly defined that Hickman needed to do an interview to clear up what the actual mystery was. Moira is probably the biggest offender of this. Despite being positioned as the most important character in HOXPOX, she's quite literally never on-screen again until it's revealed she's a supervillain. It makes no sense why people like Storm, Nightcrawler and Jean would willingly work with people like Mr Sinister etc. Hell, Hickman tried to do a whole thing of "Jean wearing a green dress is totally important guys!"

              It's so clear that Hickman was so convinced that his worldbuilding and hooks were interesting enough to keep people were invested, rather than telling interesting stories.
              It was clear thematically what Hickman was going for (that being the pride cometh before the fall), how the arrogance of Krakoa was going to lead to it's destruction. However, even if you can thematically understand what a writer is going for, why they are going for it and how... that doesn't make a good story.

              (2/2)

            • 4 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              It's becomes funny because it's impossible to not read Synch as doing anything other than poorly cope and console himself. Also I'm kinda out of the loop, what'd Remender say about Hickman?

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Oh yeah, Synch comes off as such an butthole in that story, it's amazing. That being said, it sucks shit, because I really wish that after coming back he was actually talking to his friends in Gen X seeing what's changed, rather than doing a poorly defined love story by Hickman.

                Back in Uncanny Avengers, Remender had been promised the flagship title for Marvel. However, Hickman's Avengers began to take precedence and he was getting screwed by editorial. So, when he was about one foot out the door, Remender did an annual which tore into Hickman/his style of writing and called him a hack that critics only praised because they didn't want to be seen as stupid.

                It's aged like the finest of wines.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                You can tell just how much Remender hated the shit that Hickman wrote.

                Which totally makes sense as they have two different philosophies. Remender is a character writer. Hickman's a system one.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >Hickman's a system one.
                CHARTS

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                CHARTS

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                The emperor has no clothes

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                So many writers in comics and television were doing things like this, it's not just a shot at Hickman, even if he was part of the problem. "Lost" being in bold makes it pretty obvious he was also referring to that show.

                So annoyed no one ever connected the Mutants vs Machines stuff to Wanda and Vision as a refutation.

                Also the main problem I think was big 2 cape comics aren’t the medium for long narratives about the Faustian deals that have to be made to build a nation

                >So annoyed no one ever connected the Mutants vs Machines stuff to Wanda and Vision as a refutation.
                Hard to use them as a refutation when Marvel spent decades refusing to let them be a couple even when it's something even normies know about them by now. Most people who like them are probably just glad they were barely even in any of these books, and what they were in was too much.

                >Also the main problem I think was big 2 cape comics aren’t the medium for long narratives about the Faustian deals that have to be made to build a nation
                Trying to do that seriously would get in the way of the power fantasy of the mutant ethnostate winning over everyone and flexing on the whole galaxy. Look at how Krakoa didn't fail because of it's flaws or the actions of it's rulers, it fails because Orchis did false flag attacks to trick people into hating mutants.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >Story about Remender's struggling with Marvel editorial and comics
                >He's talking about a show that at that point has been off the air for four years

                I can see how Hickman keeps his fans. They have an unparalleled ability to cope, seethe and ignore reality.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                How the hell did you read that and get the impression I was a fan of Hickman? The point was just that Hickman was hardly alone, that style of storytelling was, and sadly still is, popular in comics and television, it's a much bigger trend than just one writer. Lost may have ended years before that comic was written, but it was within recent memory enough, and huge enough at it's peak to have still been something people would reference as one of the main culprits for popularizing this kind of storytelling.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                I knew Hickman was in the wrong business when I heard him say in an interview that he dislikes episodic, case-of-the-week storytelling. It shows, but superhero comics are all about living in the moment and adjusting stories, emphasizing characters, etc. based on what people respond to month-to-month. X-Men could not have been built up as a franchise if there had been an actual plan in place.

                But like you say, that's not unique to Hickman, and I have my doubts Remender was referring to him. With the Netflix binge model in the 2010s the idea came about that you don't need to have short stories or even wait to see what people are responding to, you just write out the story of the season and break it up into episodes.

                This is how we got an adaptation of Jessica Jones, a comic book character whose profession as a private detective was supposed to allow her to investigate the seamy side of the Marvel Universe... and instead of going out on cases they just took the final arc of the comic and stretched it over 13 hours and counting.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                I mean... you can do his style of storytelling. Remender in Uncanny X-Force set up the Dark Angel Saga since the first issue.

                The big issue is not the format of the American comicbook. It's storytelling ability and the ability to be flexible.

                The unfortunate thing is Hickman's whole style is "is this going to be important" instead of establishing characters, their relationships and why we should care.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >The big issue is not the format of the American comicbook. It's storytelling ability and the ability to be flexible.
                Yeah, people were dropping baits and hints for future plot threads all the time back in the 80s and 90s. It's not really hard to cut away for a page or two to hint at some future event that's transpiring.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >This is how we got an adaptation of Jessica Jones, a comic book character whose profession as a private detective was supposed to allow her to investigate the seamy side of the Marvel Universe... and instead of going out on cases they just took the final arc of the comic and stretched it over 13 hours and counting.

                Also She Hulk barely having lawyer shit

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                To be fair I don't think the stretching was the main problem of the Jessica Jones' series.
                The overall terrible writing and a weak and pathetic villain were a bigger issue, but no one wants to admit that because people love those for some reason.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >Trying to do that seriously would get in the way of the power fantasy of the mutant ethnostate winning over everyone and flexing on the whole galaxy. Look at how Krakoa didn't fail because of it's flaws or the actions of it's rulers, it fails because Orchis did false flag attacks to trick people into hating mutants.

                I find it surreal how easy it is to sell people on "RACE WAR NOW" segregationist junk by painting it in a "fully automated luxury green gay space communism" coat of paint. At least with people who went all in on the power fantasy angle.

                I'd say Krakoa's the most anti-X-Men setting I could think of but it also embodies some of the worst traits of the series taken to their logical extreme.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >I'd say Krakoa's the most anti-X-Men setting I could think of
                This. I think I called this out in the beginning and how Xavier and his X-Men shouldn't have gone along with it at all thus triggering a mutant cold war of sorts

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Remender’s a professional he’s not gonna openly shittalk a co-worked this is likely just a jab at generic corpo-slop

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Remender's a middle aged guy still writting
                >Christianity is... LE FASCIST
                slop at Image now, so it's not like he's one to talk. At least Hickman's autistic stories that always end with a whimper are stories and not political jabs.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Hickman's autistic mystery boxes haven't been stories since his FF ended more than a fricking decade ago.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Still better than whatever Remender's doing with Lullaby and Holly Roller.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >Oh yeah well Remender is writing about religion!

                Oh no, how terrible!

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            I'll say one of two positive things about Howard here that apply to a lot of the other writers, her job wasn't to prop up Hickman's grand narrative but take a look at something happening in said narrative. Also Hickman was running the show for years before he bailed so if he had a problem with what was being turned in it doesn't seem like it from the output.

            >there would have still been a mutant war
            Really should have been what happened, it should have been about the Fall of Eden because they let all the snakes in. You have all these psychos in untouchable positions of power, constant attacks from outside enemies and a past of radicalizing events, the Hellfire Gala attack should have been what caused dudes like Exodus to make a move with their factions

            >climax of the Krakoan Civil War is Magneto approaching Scarlet Witch trying to intimidate, cajole, and finally begging her to depower his opposing factions
            Imagine the seethe.

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          What sci-fi book did Moira come from?

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Beyond Dune and being a Bene Gesserit?

            Fifteen lives of Harry August

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >The camp, the absurdity, the humor are not part of who Sinister is. They were suits that he wore and he could very easily revert back to a more serious persona if needed.
          interest but I saw it backwards.

          I feel gillen wrote sinisters' camp as his actual ego, just sinister going masks off after decades of acting all mysterious because he finally *solved* the mutant equation.

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >Instead, he just did what JJ Abrams did in his Star Wars films.
        Now this is going too far. There is constructive criticism and there is simply insulting the man. Hickman is still a long, long way from Abrams.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >What is ORCHIS? The greatest threat that has ever faced the X-Men. Why? Because a data page says so.
      Oof. Harsh but very true.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >everyone was one board
      it was like that since uncanny 600. all the x-men were backing rightclops and war crimes magneto. rightclops and magneto leads straight to krakoa

  26. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    It went wrong at conception.

  27. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    The big problem is that the defenders of this crap always fall back on the same thing. You just don't like the new change in status quo. But that's all we're getting here. It's different so we're expected to accept it as good? It's not a real story. There's no real character depth or drama.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      I love when it's defended because "It's not another mutant genocide at the school". Yeah, they're right....it's about like 9 of them.

      You get this dumb binary where people insist you either get supremacist island or genocide as your only X-Men stories. It's too much to have the X-Men actually be heroic and not abandon the tolerance theme.

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        https://i.imgur.com/LVWWQwG.jpeg

        Now that it's finally over, what went wrong?

        I what to see Kamala at superhero School.

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >"It's not another mutant genocide at the school". Yeah, they're right....it's about like 9 of them.
        All they did was change the location and when you say anything you're met with "Drr you just want the mansion." I don't care if it's the mansion, the outback or mars. The story needs to be about something. F4 didn't just change their name to the future foundation and call it a new status quo. You had Reed doing stuff and you got a story about him and his family. That's a book.

  28. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    It was dragged out too long?

  29. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    It's the X-Men's Clone Saga but worse

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      no matter how many times you push this meme, it will never be true

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        You're right, the Clone Saga actually had some good parts
        Krakoa was shit from conception to ending

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          sure buddy, whatever helps you sleep at night

  30. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >Mutant population on Earth reduced from hundreds of thousands to mere hundreds
    Orchis won.

  31. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    This thread looks like a circle jerk of 1-3 Hickman's haters that cant come to terms that this runs have been mostly beloved by most people.

    Sure it brings some dubious characterizations but guess what, if we writers are not allowed to do that we cant have interesting comics anymore. Or we going back to xmen telling the same old stories again and again.

    Hickman takes risks, he has some things i didnt like but overall i have been looking forward to each new issue in contrast to most other writers who i am like "meh, guess i will read that since i like the character"

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >that cant come to terms that this runs have been mostly beloved by most people.
      If MOST people love this story than why are comic sales in the gutter?

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        1) they aren't
        2) the sales of comic books in general are smaller than what they used to be

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >Hickman takes risks by ripping off DC Events and Sci-Fi novels.
      >Characters being written as archetypes with no real logic beyond "because plot!"

      Hickman's whole bullshit is shown in the Great Society arc of New Avengers.

      Despite being both a liability and not useful for the situation, the Illuminati have not mindraped Namor like they did Cap. Why? Because Hickman needs him for plot!

      The Illuminati have blown up uninhabited rocks. That makes them complete monsters! Likewise, they can't make up any new plans to solve the problem. Why? Because they need to be complete monsters for the plot to happen.

      Likewise, a bunch of other solutions are off the table for plot to happen.

      The Great Society are these morally superior beings, not because of their actions. Oh no, they've just go "HOPE!" and will let two worlds collide, which Hickman has made clear will kill two universes. But they are morally superior because... he says so.

      That's the big thing with Hickman stuff. He talks about how he has these grand ideas and great saga.

      However, all of his stuff is so poorly conceived and written that the how/why of it doesn't make any sense whatsoever. The characters don't make any sense, not because they are illogical, but because they need to be inconsistent for plot to happen.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >if we writers are not allowed to do that we cant have interesting comics anymore
      this is deeply, deeply incorrect. interesting stories don't REQUIRE subverting existing characters, themes, worldbuilding, or anything else - in fact, writers incapable of creating stories that are interesting on their own merits use subversion of existing things as a crutch to generate interest via what is essentially 'canon contrarianism' with such frequency in amateur and independent work that 'subversion' is just... expected there. it hasn't been actually 'subversive' or 'interesting' for decades.

      this is pretty fundamental writing advice that beginners (and the lazy) don't like to hear, because inverting and subverting something to be 'different' and 'interesting' is so much easier than creating something that stands on its own merits REGARDLESS of where it subverts what came before. and even though the next step after learning that you don't need it and shouldn't rely on it is, naturally, learning how to use it well anyway, that still starts with learning WHEN to use it (and when NOT to).

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      The whole dubious characterisation stuff is one of the most idiotic things I've read. No one in this thread complains about the writing of flawed people. What people complain about is when those characters don't make sense. The compliant of all Hickman's shit is that his characters, their personalities and motivations are nonsense.

      People like reading and writing flawed characters, but these characters have to make sense which none of Hickman's characters in HOXPOX and/or his Avengers run do. They are just archetypes to explore his systems and worldbuilding.

      So annoyed no one ever connected the Mutants vs Machines stuff to Wanda and Vision as a refutation.

      Also the main problem I think was big 2 cape comics aren’t the medium for long narratives about the Faustian deals that have to be made to build a nation

      The whole lack of connection to other aspects of the Marvel universe was because Krakoa couldn't fall in any way that Hickman didn't want it to fall.

      >if we writers are not allowed to do that we cant have interesting comics anymore
      this is deeply, deeply incorrect. interesting stories don't REQUIRE subverting existing characters, themes, worldbuilding, or anything else - in fact, writers incapable of creating stories that are interesting on their own merits use subversion of existing things as a crutch to generate interest via what is essentially 'canon contrarianism' with such frequency in amateur and independent work that 'subversion' is just... expected there. it hasn't been actually 'subversive' or 'interesting' for decades.

      this is pretty fundamental writing advice that beginners (and the lazy) don't like to hear, because inverting and subverting something to be 'different' and 'interesting' is so much easier than creating something that stands on its own merits REGARDLESS of where it subverts what came before. and even though the next step after learning that you don't need it and shouldn't rely on it is, naturally, learning how to use it well anyway, that still starts with learning WHEN to use it (and when NOT to).

      Also on this, here's a big thing about good deconstructions. They understand the source material that they are working with.

      As much as people shit on the Dark Knight Rises' take on Superman, at the time that was what Superman was going to be. The Super Republican who was best buddies with Reagan.

      What a lot of material these days does is "Oh let me subvert this franchise/character and go into the "problematic" shit... without actually putting any thought into it.

      Probably the best recent examples of this is Gotham War and Wells' lawyer girl in Spiderman. They want to explore "Oh heroes fight the mentally ill and/or poor", yet they don't understand that their premise is refuted by the very medium they are using.

      All Hickman does and all HOXPOX, his Avengers etc was is him bashing the sci-fi and DC shit he already read into existing franchises, without thinking about the connecting web and if it's possible.

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        The issue with deconstructions is that so many fail to build anything new with the material after they tear it down. They basically just look at some cliche or trope say it's stupid and make it fail and then leave it at that.

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >What a lot of material these days does is "Oh let me subvert this franchise/character and go into the "problematic" shit
        Ah, the Tom King special!

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          I still love how he made his Adam Strange yet another "War on Terror" thing, despite the fact that Adam Strange doesn't fit into that mold, beyond "being a white guy in a strange land".

          Say what you will about the Adam Strange stuff that Moore did, but he understood what Adam Strange was and how to subvert him.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            That’s because Moore would do research into the characters he wrote. Sort of like the opposite of what Bendis does.

            • 4 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              Moore can read Gravity's Rainbow in an afternoon and reads like a book or two a day. I don't think he needs to research, he just knows.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >What a lot of material these days does is "Oh let me subvert this franchise/character and go into the "problematic" shit
            Ah, the Tom King special!

            he made Wonder Woman eat a rat
            i'm not even a Wonder Woman fan and it pisses me off

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            He was trying to critique the John Carter of Mars colonizing archetype without reading any old Strange Adventure comics where Adam Strange basically just fights random monsters and would-be alien conquerors. It also doesn't help that Terrific comes out much better than Adam Strange in the comic.

            • 4 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              Oh no. He explicitly advertised Strange Adventures as "What if I was the war criminal everyone thought I was?" The dude explictly compares his experience in the CIA to Adam Strange's journey.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Sure but he also said in an interview that he's critiquing the John Carter or Tarzan archetype. And again, it doesn't help that he's shitting on Strange so hard but not critiquing Terrific at all.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                I just read Mr Terrific's first appearance i n Ostrander's Spectre and there' so much juice to squeeze from his character concept being "poor folk just need a community center and a good role model" shitlib bullhockey

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Why would Mr. Terrific need critique in the book?

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                King wants to write a book about flawed men and it doesn't help that one of the protagonists gets shit on constantly while the other protagonist comes out flawless and at the end, gets to raise the other's daughter because he's such a better person.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                He probably did read much EGB either. If any.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                I genuinely can't see that in the bullshit he does.

                I just read Mr Terrific's first appearance i n Ostrander's Spectre and there' so much juice to squeeze from his character concept being "poor folk just need a community center and a good role model" shitlib bullhockey

                Oh absolutely, but at the same time, King himself is incapable of doing such a commentary.

                Look at his stuff of feminism. His vibe of feminism is that being a homemaker is a bad thing/something a woman should want to break out of. It shows his fundamental misunderstanding of what feminism was and is. Women in the 50s weren't protesting that they were homemakers. They were fighting for their independence, be it equal pay, the ability to leave an abusive marriage, have a career etc.

                This drips into the whole vibe of his Wonder Woman is not "I'm my own person, making my own way, loving who I want to love etc" it's "I'm not like Clark and Bruce. I'm not like X". King is convinced that the way you make a feminist character is by comparing her to her male ones. Hell, she's not even the POV character of her own story. The whole story is being narrated by a man with Wonder Woman doing nothing but reacting to him.

                The man can go "Oh I understand these things!" but he only gets a surface level understanding of either a philosophy or phenomena.

                King does understand that no one thinks he's the exciting kind of war criminal, right? Less Dirlewanger and more "assistant to the payroll accountant at Auschwitz." Shit, does anyone actually think he's done anything noteworthy and wasn't just some faceless paper pusher, assuming they even believe he was actually in the CIA? Strange Adventures being a madcap comedy of errors as Adam Strange tries to prevent Mr. Terrific from discovering that on Rann he's actually a glorified parking lot attendant and is just making shit up when back on Earth would have been an actually interesting book.

                [...]
                Same reason why the Japanese have a problem when a US soldier rapes a woman only for the US government to carry out the investigation, criminal proceedings, and imprisonment.

                Uh... it's suspect. The guy has said that he helped plan the invasion of Iraq and you've got to be a certain type of butthole to claim that. He was also in "counter terrorism" at the time when Fallujah popped off (with it being common knowledge that branch was involved in that) Likewise, he was apparently the Head of the Counter Terrorism in America.

                Chances are he's done some war crimes.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >His vibe of feminism is that being a homemaker is a bad thing/something a woman should want to break out of

                When it’s being forced on you to make you subservient to men, dumbass.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                that was the anon's fricking point, dumbass. can you read?

                >Hell, she's not even the POV character of her own story.

                It’s a story where the narrator is constantly talking about how he constantly underestimates and loses to Diana due to hubris.

                i don't go to a Wonder Woman book looking to watch a man self-emasculate in narration boxes the whole time. i'm looking to read... y'know... Wonder Woman.

                if a man is to be emasculated, Wonder Woman should be doing it herself (and hopefully shutting him up at the same time - because again, i'm not going to Wonder Woman to read a man whining about himself)

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >anon is too stupid to understand symbolism

                That issue of Wonder Woman was not saying don’t be a homemaker. It was about the patriarchy taking an independent woman and trying to break her and make her subservient through an illusion where she’s forced to assume a stereotypical old fashion symbolic role of a housewife whose existence revolves entirely around trying to please her male partner. No independence, just take abuse from a partner who derides you at every turn, stay at home and make me dinner. That is the cage the man was trying to force Diana into. Misrepresenting that as something else entirely makes you either a moron or a dishonest liar.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >Hell, she's not even the POV character of her own story.

                It’s a story where the narrator is constantly talking about how he constantly underestimates and loses to Diana due to hubris.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                King didn't graduate college until 2000 and joined the CIA after 9/11; there is no way in hell he helped plan the invasion of Iraq, he lacked the background or experience.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Either that says something about the CIA that they got a kid out of college to do that shit or something about a person who lies about that shit and then makes comics crying about how he feels bad about war crimes.

                that was the anon's fricking point, dumbass. can you read?

                [...]
                i don't go to a Wonder Woman book looking to watch a man self-emasculate in narration boxes the whole time. i'm looking to read... y'know... Wonder Woman.

                if a man is to be emasculated, Wonder Woman should be doing it herself (and hopefully shutting him up at the same time - because again, i'm not going to Wonder Woman to read a man whining about himself)

                Yep. Thank you.

                Unless you're doing something very, very interesting, it's depressing as frick that the whole comic is "Diana is acted on and we rarely if ever get to see her point of view".

                Then why is the fall of Krakoa not because of the actions of its populace but because of the false flag attacks that those meanies Orchis conducted? Shit, if Krakoa is supposed to be this fresh and innovative new setting for the X-Men, why did there have to be a new human fronted anti-mutant group in the first place?

                Because Hickman was gonna structure it like Dune anon. The whole thing was going to be ORCHIS as a stand in for the Harkonnens and the X-Men/Krakoa being the Fremen. ORCHIS would be defeated but the X-Men would lose themselves and become monsters, with the New Mutants being revealed as the secret heroes of this saga.

                However, none of the writers either read Dune or Miracleman other than Ewing, Gillen, Spurrier and maybe LaValle, so they had no idea what Hickman was going for.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                are you telling me Hickman wanted to do the ascension of House Atreides AND the Butlerian Jihad... simultaneously? that doesn't fricking work! you only get the Fremen/Harkonnen conflict out of a stable society's internal conflicts boiling over catastrophically WITHOUT ANY SOCIETAL UNITY, SUCH AS FULLY UNIFYING THREATS LIKE A UNIVERSAL BUTLERIAN JIHAD.

                the worst part is i completely believe you.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Or you know, Hickman is a terrible writer and his plans were dogshit

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                King does understand that no one thinks he's the exciting kind of war criminal, right? Less Dirlewanger and more "assistant to the payroll accountant at Auschwitz." Shit, does anyone actually think he's done anything noteworthy and wasn't just some faceless paper pusher, assuming they even believe he was actually in the CIA? Strange Adventures being a madcap comedy of errors as Adam Strange tries to prevent Mr. Terrific from discovering that on Rann he's actually a glorified parking lot attendant and is just making shit up when back on Earth would have been an actually interesting book.

                Why would Mr. Terrific need critique in the book?

                Same reason why the Japanese have a problem when a US soldier rapes a woman only for the US government to carry out the investigation, criminal proceedings, and imprisonment.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                That’s a completely nonsensical comparison

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            That’s because Moore would do research into the characters he wrote. Sort of like the opposite of what Bendis does.

            Ever read Twilight by Chaykin? Brutally cynical reimagining of DC's space stuff from the 50s, but while he pulls no punches tearing down characters it is very apparent he's incredibly well-versed in the tropes and themes of the genre because at its core deconstruction is literary analysis and criticism in narrative form.

            • 4 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              Nope. Need to read it, though I want to get familiar with the space character he's ripping into before I do so.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Wasn't Alan Moore's "subversion" of Adam Strange playing him 100% straight, having him offer to do a favor for Swamp Thing by telling his GF Abby he was alive, and having Abby laugh at him because, as a normie, she found Adam's whole story of who he was silly and unbelievable with the joke actually being on Abby in terms of "dumb normie"?

            • 4 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              Moore just really leaned into the idea that Adam Strange is the savage back on Rann.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Facts.

      The worst is all the people going "nooo they're fascist eugenists, you can't enjoy THAT"

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Yup. You can see how much they seethe, because you spoke the truth

      Face the truth folks, at worst, Krakoa is polarizing. You have people defending it, and you have some people hating it, but there doesn't seem to be any consensus whatsoever

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >Or we going back to xmen telling the same old stories again and again.
      Yeaaaah. I am willing to bet that the same people who shat on Krakoa are going to shit on Brevoort even more. But then again, people here hate Duggan's run, even if it's exactly that - X-Men being superheroes

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        I don't know, maybe I will shit on Brevoort's X-Men, I can't say because I haven't read it yet. What I can say is I hate the idea of the X-Men having an ethnostate and will enjoy it being gone.

        Yup. You can see how much they seethe, because you spoke the truth

        Face the truth folks, at worst, Krakoa is polarizing. You have people defending it, and you have some people hating it, but there doesn't seem to be any consensus whatsoever

        I mean....yeah? That's obvious.

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >See he sort of did that think you wanted
        >You hating it means the idea is bad and not the execution!

  32. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    No one, including Hickman, knew what to do with the incredible premise.

  33. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Aside from lack of planning and follow through I've come to see the inclusion of Orchis and Sentinels and the time travel angle in general as a less interesting distraction from the actual interesting angle, which is building a modern mutant society opposed by the rest of the world, as in actual countries and heroes. I don't really give a shit about another racist anti-mutant org or more robots from a grim future when you promised me a lot more political intrigue and freakish cult like societal development.

  34. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    So annoyed no one ever connected the Mutants vs Machines stuff to Wanda and Vision as a refutation.

    Also the main problem I think was big 2 cape comics aren’t the medium for long narratives about the Faustian deals that have to be made to build a nation

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      What bugs me is they never referenced the first mutant vs machine conflict: Human Torch vs Namor

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        I wouldn't be surprised if there was some kind of mandate not to use Namor, since they were doing stuff with him on the Avengers books.
        Which would be an explanation for why Namor's entire presence in the Krakoa era was repeatedly going "nah, I don't believe you" at Charles.

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          It's more like nobody really cares about Namor.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            And that's a good thing. Means Namor gets to stay in the sensible people laughing at Krakoa gaslighting themselves-club with Doom.

            • 4 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              More like make a narrative hole that doesn't make sense, and instead of making a good story, creates another inconsequential epic

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Jordan has pretty much said Brevoort was wiener blocking them from using Namor and Franklin.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Honestly, good. They'd have just made Franklin into an even bigger plot device than he already was, and as funny as the idea of Namor and Apocalypse having a dick measuring contest when the diplomacy for Atlantis and Krakoa began, you know it'd never come to anything near as interesting as that. Hell, the fact that the X-men spend zero effort to actually show them trying to reach out to other nations or the heroes of those nations to keep themselves on good terms really shows nobody believed this shit would last long.

            • 4 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              The real loss is that Franklin could had have finally some good story under his belt that would matter. What Franklin really has? Heroes Return? He is terrible in FF and it's obvious that writers don't know what to do with him.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Maybe the Griever whatever will return to SS him, I dunno

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >The real loss is that Franklin could had have finally some good story under his belt
                Anon we're still talking modern X-Men here. There are simply no good stories to be had

            • 4 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              homie, considering how comic books are decompressed, in order to fully explore Krakoa, you would neet 70s / 80s ethics to bring it to life. Modern writers are not capable of writing complex stories, they write for TPB

            • 4 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              The way that Slott wrote Franklin out was moronic, it should have been Doom being somehow able to mask his mutant gene, it playing out how it did in the comic with Xavier immediately brushing Franklin off, and then Doom going to him saying "see how fickle these mutants are, they care nothing about you or your interests, all they would have seen you as would have been a weapon."

            • 4 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              I still find it fricking hilarious that after everything Doom did involving Franklin, Valeria still texts him behind her dad's back.

              Girl REALLY doesn't trust her dad's judgement and Reed is completely oblivious to it.

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          It's really annoying how homosexuals kvetch when the X-Men want to use some non x-men character for a story, but at the same time, they shill for some X-character to leave the books and join the avengers or such. It's annoying. I really hope that Storm will be written in the most obnoxious way in the Avengers, let the punishment fit the crime

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            It might have something to do with when a non-mutant superhero shows up in an X-Men book, there use is to be lectured and scolded at by the X-Men for the past 20 years...

            • 4 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              It's this. For example, people who are fans of the Avengers, especially with Captain America or Wanda or Firestar, have seen the history of how the X-books treat these characters and are very wary of seeing them in X-books because of how things tend to go.

              On the other hand what we're seeing with X-book characters tends to be fans of those characters who hate what modern X-books are like, people saying "I really like Wolverine, or Rogue, or whoever, I wish they were in something better where them being a mutant was irrelevant". People are mistaking this for "fans of other books wanting to poach X-Men characters" when it's just charactergays who are done with modern X-books and noped out, but wish they could rescue that character they like.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >I really hope that Storm will be written in the most obnoxious way in the Avengers, let the punishment fit the crime
            So nothing will change then? X-Men characters will continue to be insufferable around non-mutants

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        If you're the same anon who posted before in thsi thread, I must say that I agree with you, and that you are genius. Weird that no one before noticed that. It is very meta, how the two options of evolution were against each other since the beginning

  35. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Bringing back Jean Grey, doing her Mary sue thing, making Logan frick her despite Scott and her being married.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >Bringing back Jean Grey, doing her Mary sue thing, making Logan frick her despite Scott and her being married.

      Scary thing to say but I'm glad Tom Brevoort's ignoring that happened. It's such dog shit and only because Krakoa is a weird wish fulfillment island where you can headcanon all your ships happening.

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Did they retcon them having sex already?

  36. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Its started really great but it went liberal woke and it went broke
    leftism destroys society

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >Buzzword
      >Buzzword
      >Buzzword
      >Buzzword
      I insult you and say you have brainrot but then I'd be using buzzwords and that would be hypocritical so I'll settle with calling you a homosexual

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >liberal
      >leftist
      These are two separate and distinct concepts.

  37. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >Oh no we're not being liked, quick drop the "thing that murders us out of prejudice" so people quickly gain sympathy for us!
    I'm just tired of X-Men plots that revolve around that idea over and over and over and over and over and over again

  38. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    It's not over yet.

  39. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    God comic fans really did not deserve the Krakoa age. Little putrid homosexuals who cant understand a metaphor even when the books just say it.

    Actual problems poor planning. I think the idea of keeping the Krakoa age going past Hickmen was right but did it really make sense if they were going to a year 1/2 of great stories then another year of just ending it.

    Confidence. Same thing with Hickmen leaving I think Jordan white should have been pushing more for the books to stay in line with each other instead of every book being so separate. Should have been more confidant in spearheading an ongoing story and saying here Ewing/Gillen your in charge now.

    Theres more but it mostly boils down to poor planning for editorial. Its crazy how big of a frick up letting one of the most popular eras of comics in decades ending like this.

  40. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    They need a very strong authoritarian police force to keep the genocidal mutants in check

    no society is perfect
    that's why we need the Police and anti Jihadist terrorist squads.
    And why the Wizarding World has Aurors

    I suggest a Police force of Psychics
    Even just the thought of going against Mutant Supremacy and Isolationism??
    Boom!! put that shit into a coma and depower

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >a very strong authoritarian police force to keep the genocidal mutants in check
      >it's just the genocidal mutants with badges

  41. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    There wasn't a single good comic post HoX/Pox. That's it. And no, Immortal and Red weren't good

  42. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Not a single good comic released

  43. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >what went wrong?

    Hickman.

  44. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Not constraining the concept to House of X/Powers of X as a miniseries and letting actual fan interest determine whether they should revisit it or not. Like all the other popular alt realities attached to the series.

  45. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    So is there no wrap up? Its just going to end like that? Rise and Fall both had like 2 page denouments.
    Also, I guess we're basically back to post-House of M levels of mutie population? Only now muties can still awaken and be born. Everyone except like thirty or forty mutants got shunted to the White Hot Room, and they're leaving the WHR mutants there. Thats so dumb. I'm so sick of this "brink of extinction" status quo since House of M.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      next week's X-Men issue is the wrap up.

  46. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    They hired moronic xim/xer drug addicts to write everything.

  47. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Krakoa age was okay and enjoyable. To some extent. People who screech about it being "the worst evar" are newbie tourists, who probably missed out the inhumans age or just enjoy shitposting on Cinemaphile.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      It’s people who feel like Xavier’s dream is the heart of the.X-Men. Xavier’s dream has been absent.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Krakoa era was terrible specifically because Hickman had no real interest in the status quo he introduced and despite being the chief architect he immediately bailed for stupid reasons, after failing to really make his big plot move on a timely manner and feel like it actually was going somewhere because it was just set up, set up, distraction and more set up without ever bothering to focus on the gigantic changes he was introducing and what they meant.

  48. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    [...]

    I get that you have a massive hate boner for King but the patriarchal view of women as homemakers, as depicted in the comic, is entirely oppressive and revolves around women being subservient to men with no agency. And that’s clearly a bad thing.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      And that comic would have been novel if it came out in the 60's, not the 2020's.

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >moving goal posts this much

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          It's not this bold and fresh idea that King thinks it is because he saw some people online shitpost about tradwives. It's also funny you mention a lack of agency and subservient since you can easily describe Steve Trevor as being that in King's run.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Yep, being a homemaker with no other option sucks shit. That's not something that should be disputed.

      What King does is fall into the same trap that every dumbass lib has fallen into when it comes to this stuff. "Oh, 50s bad because woman were homemakers and not working!"

      It's genuinely the most ghoulish thing to happen to the movement/ideaology. The whole thing was centred around the freedom to choose, not the freedom to go to work.

      Likewise, King's whole work is not to use female heroes/legends as symbolism and have Diana act and demonstrate herself. No, all King does is compare her to her male hero counterparts.

      You can see it clearly in that housewife issue. King goes "Diana is Jesus Christ, do you get it?!" when Athena is right fricking there and would've been a much more powerful statement of "A woman busting out of the brain of a man".

      As I said, it's the big problem with King. He thinks he understands something but his depth of understanding is the same length of an incredibly shallow puddle.

      It's the same with Hickman too. These are guys who boast about how well-read they are, these great ideas that they have, but these ideas both in concept and execution are incredibly flimsy and weak.

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Wow this is amazing level of seethe over imaginary boogimen

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          It's nothing we haven't seen a hundred times before with WW. Gerard Way did a couple years ago and in a much more interesting way.

          >50's bad because women were homemakers and not working
          Which is a narrative spun by neolibs, women who were forced to be housewives were in a middle-class household, poor women were always working. Feminism has always been a predominately middle and upper-class led movement.

          I'll do you one better. Labor participation by women in 1950s by age cohort declines as women reach the average age of marriage then begins increasing a few years later, which correlates to the average age a child begins attending school. Women temporarily stopped working to raise children then went back to work as they grew up.

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >50's bad because women were homemakers and not working
        Which is a narrative spun by neolibs, women who were forced to be housewives were in a middle-class household, poor women were always working. Feminism has always been a predominately middle and upper-class led movement.

  49. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    The struggle in pursuit of coexistence is a better message than atomizing people into little pockets of identity. It’s as simple as that.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Agreed. What a fundamental misunderstanding of the X-Men the Krakoa era is. This character assassination on a hitherto unprecedented scale.
      Not just one character, an ENTIRE FRANCHISE of characters

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        The struggle in pursuit of coexistence is a better message than atomizing people into little pockets of identity. It’s as simple as that.

        Coexistence was never an option as evidenced by the state of the real world. the comics just reflect that

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >Muh rael word

          Go be gay somewhere else

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >You will get "race war NOW" comics until no one is discriminated against anymore

          As someone who comes from a comically mixed race family, your idpol is completely incoherent. Go away with your cynical nonsense.

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          If you've given up on peace and understanding, then you deserve to die in the mud.
          The key to our problems today is a little more humility, a fair chunk of compromise, a lot more good faith communication. Your attitude is detrimental to that.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >You will get "race war NOW" comics until no one is discriminated against anymore

            As someone who comes from a comically mixed race family, your idpol is completely incoherent. Go away with your cynical nonsense.

            I honestly feel worried because so many young people are already so jaded they cheer on when the Krakoan books go "understanding was never going to work, we just have to kill people until there's not enough left to fight us". Hope saying it was only right to let humans die during the Orchis attack so they'd "feel the burden for once" was fricking awful writing and Gillen lost so much in my eyes for that. As if the marvel civilians in general don't constantly suffer due to nazi invasions and plagues of vampires.

            Frick. Off.

            • 4 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              Hope is a self-aggrandizing sociopath and that was in character for her

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                "I'm not a hero, I'm a soldier" thank you for confirming you are a sociopath, hope. You can't both slam the industrial-military complex and also make your special cinnabun say shit like this, Kieron.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Gillen knows Hope is a c**t. She doesn't exist to express his point of view.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Possession by Sinister gene doesn't count

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Sinister just opened up their inhibitions, that's why they all took it so hard.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                I fricking hate Hope

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            This is the limp twisted mewling of a fat white hating Black person israelite cuck israelite that deserves to get raped eat my shit Trump won be afraid very afraid

  50. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Remember during the trial of Magneto when there were massive pro mutant protests by humans? What happened to those humans?

  51. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Charles walking

  52. 4 weeks ago
    El Barto

    honestly ithink the problem is that very few x-men decided against moving there, like ifeel there should’ve been some more folks that stayed to improve mutant-human relations and stuff

    from what we got, it seems every mutant pretty much gave up hope and became recluses there

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Everyday, I lean more and more towards that Morrison was right in creating Sublime. There's a difference in combatting racist ideals and then having every normie human being a frothing from the mouth bigot who's ready to lynch a mutant as soon as they see one.

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        i also lean this way, even though i hate the concept of Sublime - it's legitimately the most coherent way they've ever justified humanity's universal, incoherent, often OUTRIGHT SUICIDAL hatred of mutants.

        the people who buy into "mutants should never be feared" can't handle realistic depictions of humans in the x-books because fearing mutants is just realistic. they want to both claim sympathy for being oppressed and have powers superior to their 'oppressors' simultaneously, they don't want the group they've decided are the 'oppressor' to ever be humanized, and they want to be able to consider that group universally evil to justify their poorly veiled fetish for collective punishment.

        literally the only time that's even approached a coherent theme is with a fricking racist mind-control virus. say what you will about Morrison, but that's legitimately the closest the 'people with this particular brand of superpower-granting genetics are always the oppressed, and all humans without superpowers are their oppressors' thing has come to making sense.

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          I like Sublime being Kitty's creation thanks to the Krakoan stuff. It's perfect

          I'd really know what to make of how I feel about Morrison's run anymore. I don't like it at all but the more I argue about the X-Men, the more I realize nonsense like Sublime or comically evil Magneto are what you'd get if you seriously engage with the X-Men's narrative. On the other hand, it's the product of somebody who's admittedly not that familiar with the X-Men and laid the groundwork for the ethnonationalism over the superheroics I'd prefer.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            i also lean this way, even though i hate the concept of Sublime - it's legitimately the most coherent way they've ever justified humanity's universal, incoherent, often OUTRIGHT SUICIDAL hatred of mutants.

            the people who buy into "mutants should never be feared" can't handle realistic depictions of humans in the x-books because fearing mutants is just realistic. they want to both claim sympathy for being oppressed and have powers superior to their 'oppressors' simultaneously, they don't want the group they've decided are the 'oppressor' to ever be humanized, and they want to be able to consider that group universally evil to justify their poorly veiled fetish for collective punishment.

            literally the only time that's even approached a coherent theme is with a fricking racist mind-control virus. say what you will about Morrison, but that's legitimately the closest the 'people with this particular brand of superpower-granting genetics are always the oppressed, and all humans without superpowers are their oppressors' thing has come to making sense.

            You could argue that Morrison being entirely detached from Claremont's soap opera telenovela X-Men was either the best thing to ever happen to the franchise or the worst. Dude just wanted to tear shit up and insert his silver age-style stuff with his usual sci-fi twist in. Sucks if you were a Magneto fan.

            I really want to live in the timeline where Morrison got his original wish and got to use Storm, since she was going to be the character doing Emma's plot of seducing Scott away from Jean. That would have been extra spicy since Jean and Ororo are usually depicted as almost treating each others like sisters. But having that as a story from the most famous creator to ever write the book would have been a hell of a thing for future writers to work with.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            The problem with Morrison's ideas being the end result of the X-Men's current narrative is that Morrison was the origin and driving force of X-Men's current narrative. You can't really say you predicted a house collapsing when you're the one who ripped out its load-bearing walls. Everyone forgets that Whedon's run is a pretty massive middle-finger to a lot of Morrison's thoughts and ideas.

            The best way to take it is that Morrison, by virtue of being a popular writer, has his takes being seen as inviolate gospel by his fanbase (which isn't necessarily the fanbase of the book in question) and the "correct" way to write the books by corporate and later writers due to sales figures. It's nothing unique to Morrison. The best way to look it is that it makes sense from a Morrisonian perspective, but breaks down outside of it.

            • 4 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              The problem is that every writer after Morrison learned the exact worst lessons from his run and the books never truly recovered. Morrison never intended it, but he is the inspiration for all the mutant genocide garbage

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                I don't follow. Morrison was the first writer to truly lean into mutants as a minority which meant making them a population that numbered in the millions, their own subculture, and a lot more non-mutants who idolized, fetishized, or were otherwise friendly to them. Quesada didn't like that at all because it was so unlike how mutants had been but he let him get away with it because he was a big name. He went overboard with the reset button, though they corrected that again with AvX.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                You can start with Quentin Quire inexplicably being a favorite character among many X-writers.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                They subconsciously see far too much of themselves in the school shooter, especially his initial contrarian-as-frick mindset

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                I still find that hilarious, because Quire is such a vicious little statement by Morrison. This kid has all this great power... and nothing else. He's a fricking useless, empty creature.

                Even before being told he's adopted, he's an incel whose angry that a guy's got a girlfriend and he doesn't and creeps on the cuckoos who find him repulsive. After getting told he's adopted, he finds the guy he's jealous of, humiliates him and starts trying to be an edgelord challenging the system.

                Yet, no one takes the guy seriously. His whole philosophy is just repeating the bullshit he read in magazines, wears the "Magneto was Right" T-Shirts, beating up humans and he can't even understand an idea as simple as "Not all blackbirds are ravens". Even when he tries to take over the Institute, his plan comes undone in less than 30 minutes because he and his gang of suburban neo-nazi punks are idiots.

                Hell, the ending of the arc is hilarious. The cuckoos, the people who he's tried to impress this entire time look into his head, see everything that he is and only have one thing to say "Ew!" Meanwhile, he unknowingly meets his big idol, Magneto who is heavily implied to have put him down like a rabid dog within the context of Morrison's X-Men.

                Then you get guys like Aaron and Percy who look at the dude and go "Oh my god, that was me in highschool!" but instead of being able to actually self-reflect and think about what sort of buttholes they were back then, they go "If only someone had recognised my brilliance" having him be Wolverine's protege. Writers essentially made him the power fantasy that Morrison was deliberately mocking.

                My favourite shit is when Hellion hits Quire for having a tantrum that he's the Phoenix. Hellion is treated as being a bully because he hit Quire, but he's absolutely right. Hellion has watched his friends getting murdered in front of him and has had his arms blown off and Quire's whinning about how people aren't bowing down to his every whim.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Riot at Xavier's always rubbed me the wrong way because the story is horrifying. Quire doesn't appear before that arc so for what is essentially supposed to be a character study there is no foundation because we essentially get bullet points for his background, character, and motivation. On top of that the story is self-absolving towards the school in spite of the sheer frickedupness of the situation. The Xavier Institute where mutant kids go to be safe, master their powers, and get an education, and oh yeah one of the students started a gang that attacked and murdered people, tried to massacre students, faculty, and parents, and managed to kill at least one student - who actually stopped the gang instead of the cadre of experienced superheroes, but don't worry, the offending students were shuffled off to some humanitarian work in Africa and the teaching staff murdered the ringleader. This was not some rando snapping after years of psychological issues and bringing a shotgun, this was a straight up murder squad that radicalized over the span of a weekend. Riot at Xavier's isn't about how Quire is a loser, it's about how the Xavier Institute is dangerously unqualified to protect, much less care for, children and will cover up any problems. Good thing that adopted children aren't real children and no one loves them or cares about them because it'd be really fricking interesting to see how the X-Men would handle parents asking uncomfortable questions like "why is my son dead at the hands of the special ed teacher?" I don't like Quire in any of his appearances but his appearances under Morrison's pen were garbage.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                That's why the X-Men school is a moronic concept and I don't want any of it ever again

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >Then you get guys like Aaron and Percy who look at the dude and go "Oh my god, that was me in highschool!" but instead of being able to actually self-reflect and think about what sort of buttholes they were back then, they go "If only someone had recognised my brilliance"

                Riot at Xavier's always rubbed me the wrong way because the story is horrifying. Quire doesn't appear before that arc so for what is essentially supposed to be a character study there is no foundation because we essentially get bullet points for his background, character, and motivation. On top of that the story is self-absolving towards the school in spite of the sheer frickedupness of the situation. The Xavier Institute where mutant kids go to be safe, master their powers, and get an education, and oh yeah one of the students started a gang that attacked and murdered people, tried to massacre students, faculty, and parents, and managed to kill at least one student - who actually stopped the gang instead of the cadre of experienced superheroes, but don't worry, the offending students were shuffled off to some humanitarian work in Africa and the teaching staff murdered the ringleader. This was not some rando snapping after years of psychological issues and bringing a shotgun, this was a straight up murder squad that radicalized over the span of a weekend. Riot at Xavier's isn't about how Quire is a loser, it's about how the Xavier Institute is dangerously unqualified to protect, much less care for, children and will cover up any problems. Good thing that adopted children aren't real children and no one loves them or cares about them because it'd be really fricking interesting to see how the X-Men would handle parents asking uncomfortable questions like "why is my son dead at the hands of the special ed teacher?" I don't like Quire in any of his appearances but his appearances under Morrison's pen were garbage.

                >This was not some rando snapping after years of psychological issues and bringing a shotgun, this was a straight up murder squad that radicalized over the span of a weekend.
                >it's about how the Xavier Institute is dangerously unqualified to protect, much less care for, children and will cover up any problems
                yeah. augh.
                god i have so many thoughts about this. the worst character in the franchise. why is it that my brain always decides "yeah you're gonna be autistic about the actual worst character in existence". I could be here for a while rambling like a crazy person about how the potential for a far more interesting and impactful character is absolutely there but instead we get like, a character where the entire point of him is that he's *not* impactful and interesting because he really is just terrible to the core, because subversion or whatever except it's not subversive it's just stupid.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                It's the Hellboy Principle combined with "I'm sure I could do better." If Morrison wanted Quire to be impactful, he needed to show him more before he radicalized and slow burned his radicalization along with that of his followers. Saying he's supposed to be a nothing character just invites readers to not care and other writers to do something different with him. I don't like it, but his current characterization would work much better if they played into the fact that he's a terminal contrarian whose shit-stirring belies the fact that he's super dependent on others to give his life meaning and context.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Morrison's run literally opens with him genociding the largest existing mutant population on earth while Cassandra Nova holds a speech about how evolution will always end in one species exterminating another. Trust me, Morrison's run is the source.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >evolution will always end in one species exterminating another

                I always hated that angle to the X-Men because it's complete psuedo-science even in-universe, The FOX movies also went hard on that which I think additionally poisoned the well. They're still 100% human and little about them qualifies for a new species. They don't truebreed and the X-gene has been part of the human genome for at least a million years thus it predates modern humans. It's all part of the same Celestial gene frickery those guys did across the universe. The Atlanteans have a better claim to being a separate species than the mutants who only share a RNG rolling gene and nothing else.

                Plus it's naturally at odds with using them as any kind of minority analogy with the implications it has which is a rabbit hole in itself

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Oh I know. My masters is in biology and everything the X-Men books claim about evolution is basically fairytale horseshit, often founded in literal 19th century science.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Can we stop for a moment and talk about the extinction gene, where humanity apparently evolved to automatically commit suicide on a species level in the face of evolutionary pressure?

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Can we talk about how all of X-Men's visions about evolution are based on Bolivar Trask publishing some cartoons in a newspaper to accompany his racist screed? That's literally where mutant hate started in the comics (retcons aside)

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Honestly, the entire debacle between where "mutant hatred" started from is kind of a chicken-egg sort of question, even once you get past the numerous time paradox retcons that unintentionally justify those fears well before they logically should happen. And even then, it depends on whether or not you take the stories of the X-men by themselves or as a part of a wider setting.

                Because by all rights, Magneto and the Brotherhood of Mutants should have been the origin of fear for what the capabilities of mutants are. Magneto was by all accords the first one to put a face and a name to the idea of "homosexual superior" aka the idea of mutants coming to overtake humanity by dearth of him screaming his intentions to both the military and the world at large. And that was BEFORE he started making broadcasts globally about his Brotherhood of Evil Mutants declaring war on humanity and taking over banana republics. But then when you consider Bolivar Trask's actions, he appears to have come up with both his theories and his decision to make an army of guardian robots completely independent of the numerous public incidents involving superpowered freaks in the public. And that's if you completely ignore the fact that even if the guy was living under a rock regarding all of the X-men's activities until then, he'd have to have missed shit like Iron Man and the X-men publicly clashing over Magneto or the reports of the Hulk rampaging in the desert or, well, fricking everything regarding the Avengers publicly fighting supervillains (including their own clash with the X-men).

                Hence it's kind of a chicken-egg thing. Did Trask's ridiculous overreach with his Sentinels retroactively justify Xavier and Magneto's worries of the world never accepting mutants? Or do the actions of the antagonistic evil mutants preemptively declaring a war on humanity justify Trask's extreme reaction, and by extension society's?

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                see, the problem is, reallistically... there's NO origin point besides the first time regular powerless humans realize certain people are born with superpowers. that will always be a reasonable fear to have, especially because it takes the typical threats Marvel Universe civvies get regularly splatted by and turns them into "this could be the person you just walked by on the street, BTW", and further into "when one of them awakens, usually before adulthood, they can't control themselves and frequently harm and traumatize everyone around them, INVOLUNTARILY"

                what makes it impossible to work into a discrimination allegory (and thus requires either a pathologically moronic hateful populace... or something like a fricking racist bacterium) is the fact that fear of mutants has NOTHING to do with mutant culture or real discrimination - it's just a natural response to a genuine threat to survival.

                i mean, FFS, in a realistic setting, mutants are getting screened and having their powers awakened in a safe, controlled environment as a necessary service to BOTH the non-mutant population and the mutants. otherwise, there would be mutant kids fricking terrified that they were going to suddenly awaken and kill their friends or family members.

                hell, if you weren't screening x-genes, REGULAR kids would have that same anxiety.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Mutants are a closer allegory to the need for gun control than for minorities.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                i know edgelords don't like it, but one of the things i prefer about DC's universe over Marvel is there seems to be somewhat more respect for civilian lives there. from what i've read, at least, DC apocalypses that get averted tend to do so without large losses of life, and when people die, it's usually treated with quite a lot of weight. Marvel apocalypses (and mid-level threats, sometimes) seem to often OPEN with massive loss of life before the heroes even react, and the stories never really grapple with how horrible that makes life in the Marvel Universe. fricking everyone would have PTSD just from their daily commutes that were interrupted by supers.
                DC heroes actually respect and care about regular people. they feel like heroes living in their world. Marvel seems to struggle more with this, and the angle for X-Men as an allegory for discrimination makes this nearly impossible there, and in general any actual care for regular humans just looks performative - especially with how many people the heroes have failed to save during the threat-of-the-week's introduction.
                the sliding timeline in Marvel also compresses all these apocalypses into a ridiculously short timescale, so the civilians in Marvel are literally bouncing from one potential apocalypse to another in a matter of days. the whole goddamn planet is basically an active warzone.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                I always loved the Celestial origin in Marvel but I always feel conflicted bringing it up. Life in Earth-616 being the product of ancient bio-engineering answers so many questions but I feel like it'd invoke negative memories of Ultimate making everything the Super Soldier Serum in unaware fans. I feel like if push came to shove, writers would remove mutants from Kirby's big 2001 fanfic and try to make them "real evolution" rather than backing down.

                Can we stop for a moment and talk about the extinction gene, where humanity apparently evolved to automatically commit suicide on a species level in the face of evolutionary pressure?

                It's been awhile, did they ever say where it came from?

                Can we talk about how all of X-Men's visions about evolution are based on Bolivar Trask publishing some cartoons in a newspaper to accompany his racist screed? That's literally where mutant hate started in the comics (retcons aside)

                It'd be way too much effort to dig through but I wonder if somebody could make a map of where wires got crossed in the X-Men's narrative.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >I always loved the Celestial origin in Marvel
                Gillen literally made it the centerpiece of AXE two years ago. The Eternals wanted to exterminate mutants because they are part of the deviant genome.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >It'd be way too much effort to dig through but I wonder if somebody could make a map of where wires got crossed in the X-Men's narrative.
                Morrison crossed a lot of them.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            It was done better in the other books but the Morrison era did at least feel like there was some sort of progression of mutant/human relations. Stuff like X-Statix being reality stars and celebrities that humans like doesn't feel like it could happen during the Decimation era and beyond.

            • 4 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              I don't follow. Morrison was the first writer to truly lean into mutants as a minority which meant making them a population that numbered in the millions, their own subculture, and a lot more non-mutants who idolized, fetishized, or were otherwise friendly to them. Quesada didn't like that at all because it was so unlike how mutants had been but he let him get away with it because he was a big name. He went overboard with the reset button, though they corrected that again with AvX.

              That shit really doesn't appear in Morrison's work though. It has some minor mentions and is the occasional plot device, but all the mutant culture shit that people attribute to Morrison's run isn't in Morrison's run. Which is a major problem because no one is running out to buy an X-Statix omnibus or hunting down back issues of District X in long boxes. Under Morrison's pen mutant culture is a single fashion designer and not!cocaine that turns out to be a supervillain.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                And mutant porn, a retooled Hellfire Club, Magneto Is Right t-shirts, a school with a significantly larger student body...

                Morrison's run literally opens with him genociding the largest existing mutant population on earth while Cassandra Nova holds a speech about how evolution will always end in one species exterminating another. Trust me, Morrison's run is the source.

                He had a large island of mutants killed and then replaced them with significantly larger numbers of mutants. They discovered an Extinction gene in humanity that was going to wipe them out, leaving Earth solely for mutants (Beast developed a cure off-panel and casually mentioned it in one of the later issues)

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                None of the things you listed count as a culture.

                And by removing Genosha he removed the place where a singular mutant culture would develop. The extinction gene was a completely moronic non-concept just designed to fluff up the supremacist ideology that underpins his take on the X-Men.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Porn, clubs, shirts, kids and their antics are culture. He made a mutant culture perfectly fine without Genosha. Morrison's run was triumphalist. He starts it off with a symbolic first page of Wolverine slashing a beat-up deactivated sentinel with Cyclops telling him "That's enough, Logan." He has characters talk about how all their old villains have either been defeated or gone into hiding (he'd re-use this premise for his Batman run). The enemies he did use? An evil creature from the astral plane who ultimately ended up reformed (but this went over the heads of the midwits at Marvel), a group of losers who coveted mutant powers led by a sentient bacterium, the Weapon Plus program which was also led by that same sentient bacterium, Quentin Quire's edgy temper tantrum which was influenced by the sentient bacterium, and Magneto's very edgy temper tantrum which was yet again also influenced by the sentient bacterium. The days of mutants vs humans and mutants vs evil mutants were over, it was all ultimately mutants versus one very angry primordial bacterium.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >no one is... hunting down back issues of District X
                Probably because it's written by that hack David Hine.

            • 4 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              >X-Statix being reality stars
              they are low rent reality tv start that most people don't even watch lol. acting like they are a part of "culture" when the whole joke is that they are d-list celebs is completely missing the point of x-statix.

              also, x-statix is actually only mutant group not to be affected by the krakoa non sense.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Was The X-Cellent even in continuity?

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                yes, it is. but it was planned separately from all the krakoa stuff thankfully.

  53. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    The biggest flaw in the ending of the Krakoa era is the lack of a redemption arc for humanity. I was sure that the good normal-people humans (not the Avengers, the everyday normal people) would team up with the mutants to overthrow Orchis. That seemed like the inevitable feel-good ending.

    But as it is right now Orchis may be defeated but humanity in general seems fairly evil.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Why would regular, powerless humanity get involved? Plus I don't remember the mutants ever saying anything about the time they cozied up with HYDRA in Secret Empire.

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Secret Empire was just mutants making a deal for self-governance to stall as they prepared for an invasion instead of immediately genuflecting to fascists taking over the country.

  54. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    So...

    There was never any explanation at all for while Xavier and Magneto fought each other for years while still planning on working together on Krakoa at some point in the future?

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Nope. It's part of the big thing of Hickman's writing.

      >BIG IDEA!
      Sir how does this work? How does this gel with anything that came before?
      >BIG IDEA THO!

      HOXPOX was written to be this big event that shook up Marvel forever, but as Remender said, like most Hickman plots, if you start pulling, the plot threads unravel.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Turns out it was all just one big old LARP between the two of them. All the people whose lives they ruined either directly or indirectly, all the results of a gigantic ruse that they needed to keep going through the ages even as Genosha gets bombed, M-day occurs, and Xavier and Moira have psychotic overpowered god children with parents issues that would make Sigmund Freud blush. All a giant fake out so the X-men and mutants as a whole would just accept Krakoa as literally their only option left to survive after decades of genocide storylines.

      What a great retcon, am I right? How the entire conflict that started the series was just a big gay staged wrestling program by three creepy ethnonationalists, one of whom outright lied to his followers about a dream where mutants and humans lived side by side in a harmonious golden age for fricking decades?

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        You're getting your info from summaries rather than the actual issues. Hickman actually wrote that there was a period of time when Magneto gave up on the plan and became a genuine antagonist just to avoid the kind of thing you're complaining about.

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          And then editorial had Wade write a re-retcon stating that the early, pre-headmaster villaimy was a LARP. Which I suppose does still let Xavier off the hook as all the really heinous Magneto has done is to mu knowledge post-headmaster.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            JMD did that mini trying to reconcile silver age Magneto with Claremont's Magneto by claiming that while it started off as a LARP, he got lost in the role and genuinely became that person.

            • 4 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              Yeah, deMatteis! Don't know where I got Wade from.
              Anyway, it still sucks that Xavier we know and love was, not quite a LARP due to memory triggers, but something worse: a man doomed to lose by his own self

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          No, I read it, since I also know some chucklefrick is going to come on and claim Xavier very technically never gave up on his dream in this era because of a later retcon vaguely supported by Namor telling Xavier that he didn’t buy Xavier just immediately cashing his chips in with the other mutant supremacists. Doesn’t change the main point that it was a messy, sloppy retcon that has to rely on the logic that all three were willfully faking their parts in the war of ideologies for decades for the sake of their secret squirrel alliance.

  55. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    I wanna start this era

    But idk what comic it starts in

    I heard it had some good stories with psylocke and also has some bangers with Emma frost

    But I legit can't find the starting point

    What year and comic number and series did it start ?

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Bro it couldn't be clearer
      House of X + Powers of X (2019)
      Then you read the various X-books launched from that point onward (except for the nostalgia, out of continuity books)

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Thank you very much

  56. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Sinister hijacked the entire event.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      I never liked Hickman from the start so I like that Gillen's entire run was just "Frick you Hickman, you don't understand Moira, you don't understand Sinister, you don't understand Xavier, you don't understand AI" and just utterly dismantling his oh-so-clever idea of "the mutants' ultimate enemy is AI."

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        So much this. Krakoa was an interesting concept, but hickman couldn't pull it off, so at least we got some Gillen/Spurrier combo

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Honestly, I contest the idea that Krakoa the mutant nation was in and of itself an interesting concept. Once you start actually breaking down most of the stuff they were doing in it, almost all the shit they were doing was done before, whether as an X-men plot element or as some sci-fi thing that they're very blatantly ripping off. I think the reason people keep stanning for it is because that, at least on the surface, it FEELS different from the past two decades of X-men comics in that all the build-up is going somewhere. You don't normally shove all these end-game types of scenarios like "Enemies make massive compromises to work together" or "Heroes outright start declare themselves the rulers of other worlds" into one basket without intending for the end result to basically reframe the story into something completely different. It's only in how absolutely flaccidly the Fall of X has been overall that I think is what's causing so many diehards to see the light and realize the whole Krakoan age was basically just writers continually coating a tired old formula with their own type of paint until it's just a giant sloppy collage that's still come out the same old Decimation era X-men story.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Krakoa was necessary because
            1) decade of mutants on the brink of extinction + inhumans, so mutants being "The New Gods" felt like a nice change
            2) mutants / AI mutually pulling a terminator makes sense history-wise
            3) resurrection of many mutants, who died in the past
            4) obscure character reappearing and making cameos (Eye-Scream)
            5) many concepts and ideas were actually explored, sometimes in the unlimited series, and there were some satisfying conclusions to forgotten dangling plots
            6) Saturn-9 / Sword of X was dumb, but fun
            7) People were overthinking certain parts / and / or kvetching because Cinemaphile is infested with woketards / anti-woketards, so people had an agenda in hating and arguing about stuff
            8) I like the Enigma reveal
            9) The execution might be lacking, but a lot of things were rushed, partially because MCU, and partially, because editors felt cold feet about certain aspects that Hickman did, so they tried to backtrack from it
            10) Finally X-Men felt like a huge concept, on par with Avengers

            You don't have to agree with me, but for many things that Krakoa did wrong, on the whole, it was a breathe of fresh air, and was certainly superior to the upcoming tired and boring "mutants are hated now more than ever" trope that Brevoort will beat to death us with

            • 4 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              >The New Gods
              It felt like a terrible change, especially because the entire premise turned out to be a fricking lie told by Moira and engineered by Sinister
              >terminator
              Mutants suddenly turning around and shaking the hands of fricking supervillains like Selene, Poccy and Mr. Sinister (who isn't even born a mutant) makes absolutely no sense
              >resurrection
              There were easier ways to handwave that shit than fricking goldballs and a sex cult
              >obscure character reappearing
              No. They're obscure for a reason, and also don't deserve to be tied into a doomed elitist sex cult
              >People were overthinking certain parts
              Be specific. WHAT parts? Because there's not much to overthink about the premises "Moira is a fricking psychopath" or "the most powerful beings in the universe are achronal AIs, we will now kill one with the energy of a supernova" or "Destiny and Mystique have lied like 12 times but we're not going to imprison them with Sabretooth because reasons"
              >Enigma
              I fricking hated it. Ruined every single bit of mystique about the thing.
              >execution
              That sounds more like a condemnation of Krakoa than anything

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                We'll have to agree to disagree then.

                >Be specific. WHAT parts?
                Sex Orgy Cult Island with Magneto doing Protocols of Zion, Nature Girl story that for some reason people think is supposed to be in the right, people larping as pro-Sentinel, arguments in bad faith. What we got was what we got. Could it be better? Sure. But just because it happened, it doesn't mean that X-Men are tainted forever, or that it'll be referenced much in the future. People claiming that humans will have a reason to mutants now, as if marvel citizens were okay with Hulk, Spider-Man, or even Avengers.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >What went wrong

                Thus thread has many, many great breakdowns of that already that are much more thoughtful. But for today's headline-driven outraged populace and times, a huge problem was some of the early pop-up ideas that were really distasteful in general, and the fact that they never got resolved or meaningfully addressed.

                Particularly, "mutant sex cult orgy island." That's just such a wild, unpalatable idea to most people's conception of these characters outside of a booru and their own feelings about relationships that it was immediately off-putting, and even secondaries heard about it. Consistently putting Magneto et. al. spewing near word-for-word, easily postable screeds justifying ethnostates and supremacy, least of all in fricking Jerusalem in one example, and never having any blowback for it. Same people working with people they've been violently opposing for literal REAL WORLD DECADES and are entirely ideologically apart from that we all recognize as bad people for... uh, we're all the same race? And that never being suitably resolved, either.

                I only believe so much of it, but with how the creative industries are I do buy that some of it was editorial meddling and cutting it off, because a lot of it would be fixed by a satisfying conclusion and consequences, neither of which is what is happening.

                >tl;dr: They basically started it by showing the public "MUTANT SEX CULT ISLAND" and never following up on or showing consequences for anything they did while everyone has been acting out of character in a fever dream for the better part of a decade

                >This whole fricking post
                >Point for point "here's all the issues, but it's not that bad!"

                Jesus. People weren't overthinking them, they were reading WHAT WAS ACTUALLY THERE and finding that, later, NO COUNTERPOINT WAS PROVIDED, so naturally they went, "Gee, what the frick was that?"

                With the sliding timescale, you're not wrong, but short an active retcon they will have happened. Always.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Why would they invite the bad mutants?

                Being a mutant shouldn't excuse being a war criminal or murderer or despot. That was just asking for trouble.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >Why would they invite the bad mutants?
                MUH CLEAN SLATE, NEW SOHCIETY SO NEW RULES

                except frick sabretooth. lol so fricking weird how the writers decided to pick on that character

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                It's not gonna stop a mutant serial killer from no longer feeling the need to kill serially.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                right, but it's not gonna stop sinister, exodus, fricking apocalypse, hellfire club from doing all the insane shit they did previously and will do in the future. not to mention they gave those guys status and power.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                I'm confused, your post is structured in a way that feels like it's supposed to be a counterpoint to my post but the actual text feels like it's agreeing with me.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >WHAT WAS ACTUALLY THERE
                except not really. I was mentioning it to mock people who used it as an argument

            • 4 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              I think Brevoort showcases the back and fourth tug of war within Marvel editorial of what to do with the X-Men as a property.

              Hickman following in the steps of Morrison was all about big concepts and mutants as a community, which logically lead to mutants as a nation (which was Krakoa).

              Brevoort has on the other hand represents the part of Marvel that wanted to keep mutants anchored in superheroics and undo the ideas of the mutant community. He did that:
              1) first with Bendis with House of M and Decimation & keeping mutant numbers at 198

              and

              2) now a second time From the Ashes post-Krakoa with the majority of mutants in the White Hot Romm with the Phoenix and only the X-Men and adjacent mutants roving the real world.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                One thing that should be pointed out that you can take Brevoort out of Avengers office, but you can't take an Avenger out of Brevoort. Avengers are also part of From the Ashes launch, which is hilarious.

                I wish I could say that I'm open for being proven wrong, but knowing what a terrible editor Brevoort is, there are two options with his tenure
                1) it will be either a short nothingburger of a tenure
                2) it will be long, but very boring and directionless

                either way, he's not going to make X-Men a bestseller, especially that he failed that with Avengers when they were at the height of popularity in 08-14

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                From the Ashes is a complete non-starter. The teams are just terrible:
                -Thorne
                -Simone
                -Russell
                -bunch of no names on Storm, Phoenix, NYX, Exceptional

                In hindsight, they are just going to make Krakoa look good in hindsight. I'm not a Gillen fan, but Spurrier/Ewing/Gillen at least shows that Jordan was trying.

                Brevoort isn't even trying and is setting up creative teams that are all going to fall flat on their feet. The whole line has failure written all over it. It's like they are not even trying to hide how bad it's going to be.

            • 4 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              do you understand what "necessary" means?

              1 - that's not actually true; mutants have been fairly stable population-wise a lot more often than Krakoa apologists like to admit
              2 - no, it really doesn't. there are both AI heroes and villains in the Marvel Universe already, and they haven't been reduced to some monolithic "AI community" like mutants were in Krakoa
              3 - that's not necessary, regardless of how much the deaths made you cry
              4 - nothing about this necessitates Krakoa - it can ALWAYS be done
              5 - not the ones people actually cared about
              6 - it was dumb and disappointing, and not something people really cared about as a result
              7 - accusations of 'overthinking' fiction come from people who don't like the conclusions drawn when you just think about the story they like. it's not overthinking when it's just... realizing what's there
              8 - you are in a tiny minority, because that was one of the few things people actually cared about and the people who still cared about the overall arc of the Krakoan age were very disappointed by it
              9 - you can't blame the flaws that existed from the beginning on 'poor execution.' there was no coherent plan to execute in the first place, and it's a poor excuse for bad writing in general. there was no "good concept ruined by execution" - the concept was broken, full stop.
              10 - it felt like a fricking mess, unless your standards are just "did it make me feel good while i skimmed over the pictures and didn't think about what i was reading at all"

              >YoU dOn'T hAvE tO aGrEe WiTh Me
              >BUT
              frick off

            • 4 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              >Finally X-Men felt like a huge concept, on par with Avengers

              As somebody too deep into the Marvel rabbit hole, this is one of the funniest statements somebody could make. I get what you're saying but god, the idea of the X-Men being overshadowed by the fricking Avengers of all characters.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Avengers had a strong decade. Not just the MCU, but crossovers like Civil War, Secret Invasion, Dark Reign and Siege. Also strong teams like Brubaker on Cap, Knaufs and later Fraction on Iron Man, JMS and later Gillen on Thor, etc.

                For X-Men it was a lost decade in Hickman's own words since they were straitjacketed by Decimation and had an even worse editor than Brevoort in the form of Nick Lowe and of course later they had Bendis and were fricked over by Inhumans because of the movie rights. X-Men had too much going againt them.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                I know and it's something Krakoa fans would disagree with me on but I think the era wouldn't be anywhere near as liked if the X-Men weren't artificially being shat on. Decimation was so long ago that I think a sizable chunk of the fanbase can't even recall what it was like before.

                "Xavier's dream" is the core of the X-Men for me and Krakoa's very much the antithesis. I want the X-Men doing superheroic nonsense, the school, mutant civilians occasionally showing up in other books, and I especially want the X-Men cast mingling with the larger Marvel universe more. I don't think it requires a holocaust every Wednesday.

                It always gets labeled "bad faith" to argue this but I don't see why. To most people, the X-Men is still about "tolerance and acceptance" which we sadly haven't seen in a literal generation. It's why you sometimes get those schizo-brained takes on the X-Men due to the disconnect between what the X-Men are vs what people see them as. We'd probably have this conflict earlier had segregationist X-Men ever got adapted into other media.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                The problem is that the previous writing teams in the 2000s/2010s did everything possible to undermine the idea of Xavier's dream whether it was by:

                a) undermining the figure of Charles Xavier himself whether it was his treatment of Danger, Vulcan & his backup team or something else like the X-Men moving past Xavier/Magneto post-Messiah Complex

                b) undermining the dream and showing humanity to be clownisly evil and hateful and out to kill mutants with the X-Men making no progressive with coexistence.

                The slow death of the dream and the dreamer basically paved the way for the acceptance of Krakoa since if the idea of mutants-humans coming togeether as a community didn't work then mutants forming their own community with people like Exodus, Sinister, Apocalypse and the Hellfire Club was the next best thing.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >b) undermining the dream and showing humanity to be clownisly evil and hateful and out to kill mutants with the X-Men making no progressive with coexistence.
                this is something that I'm afraid that brevoort and simone will double down. it's really mindboggling that when inhumans were introduced as a replace-men, they had more factions, some people loved them, some hated, but never as ridicoulously as with the x-men

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                If Simone is going to double down on anything it's going to be the mutant sex part of mutant sex island.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                you guys should stop using that argument. she wrote deadpool and some x-men stories in the past and they were neither good nor horny.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                And then she spent a much larger chunk of her established career writing a heavy serving of cheesecake.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                The problem with that line of argument is that a huge chunk of the readership loves the Decimation era. It's not artificially being shat on, for 15 years post-House of M there was usually an X-book in the top ten month after month, the only times were they were consistently out of the top ten were during events and whenever DC did a reboot. Even during the time when Ike was demanding they downplay the X-Men they were still running multiple titles, hanging around the top fifty, and hitting the top 10. Being shit on is just an excuse by a fanbase that holds a decade of X-comics as the nadir of the franchise but lapped it up every week and creating a persecution narrative around a couple of shitty runs.

                Either way I think it's a direction the X-Men should've ever gone in. The X-Men getting fricked over and becoming radicalized could work as a short term status quo but the mentality never left. I just tire of the double-think where the X-Men are weak or strong depending on what's more advantageous for them in an argument. If they're going to go as far as Krakoa than they should just kill the acceptance meme and not market the X-Men as such. "Yes, the X-Men is about segregation being the only way"

                No you can't because the school book will be "endangering kids who go to school", because said school will be constantly attacked by x-men enemies

                Is this just the X-Men version of "Character X can't have kids/get married because..."? Like yeah, if there's a book centered on the school then there will be conflicts, that's how it works.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                The problem with that line of argument is that a huge chunk of the readership loves the Decimation era. It's not artificially being shat on, for 15 years post-House of M there was usually an X-book in the top ten month after month, the only times were they were consistently out of the top ten were during events and whenever DC did a reboot. Even during the time when Ike was demanding they downplay the X-Men they were still running multiple titles, hanging around the top fifty, and hitting the top 10. Being shit on is just an excuse by a fanbase that holds a decade of X-comics as the nadir of the franchise but lapped it up every week and creating a persecution narrative around a couple of shitty runs.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                here's the thing - the x-men can't have both the school and superheroic nonsense, it's either one or another, otherwise you get shit like wolverine & the x-men

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                They can, easily, it just has to be split between two books.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                No you can't because the school book will be "endangering kids who go to school", because said school will be constantly attacked by x-men enemies

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Wouldn't it make more sense for the X-men to be about the functional mutants dealing with legitimately dangrous mutants? The malcontent mutants? The mentally ill mutants? The emotionally damanged mutants?

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                i honestly sort of have to wonder why we've never seen (at least, to memory) a decent slice-of-life x-men book centred around students studying at xavier's school with it not being attacked every 20 minutes by the terrorist of the week because it feels like you could probably do a lot with that (even if it'd inevitably be a little more character-focused and less action-focused, though you could totally still play with the weirdness of the setting)

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                That sounds boring.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Because 90% of the readers are there for Laserfinger Johnny to beat the shit out of Chainsaw Nipple McGee and are going to throw a fit and drop the book if they don't get a fight scene every issue. That's literally why so many books throw in a superfluous, one page fight scene regardless of story or tone of the issue in hand. Funnily enough, Wayne Family Adventures showed that not only is there a demand for this, there is an alternative publication model that allows you to please both audiences.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Finally someone who gets it, like holy shit, why there aren't more people like this?

            • 4 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              It's sad that after listing all of that shit, you still haven't separated what Krakoa did differently from Utopia beyond making the X-men insufferably smug

              >breath of fresh air
              Lol, not even.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Utopia wasn't bad, but it was part of the Extinction era, so it dragged them down a little, and x-men were playing second fiddles to other teams

            • 4 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              >8) I like the Enigma reveal
              moron alert. no one gives a frick about enigma. especially as it pertains to MUTANTS

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                That's where you wrong. Finally x-men had a universal threat on par with the shit that FF deal with

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Having been done before doesn't necessarily make it uninteresting; what makes it uninteresting is that there is no nationbuilding in the books: there are no internal politics, no real external politics either, nothing about creating, maintaining, or running a nation, very little about its society, how its populace functions, etc. Remember those articles after the Taliban retook Afghanistan where their fighters were complaining about having to work an actual job? How do you run any system when everyone has their needs met and can spend all day drinking and fricking? How well does a nation function when what little bureaucracy and executive it has is run by people who don't have any experience in either? Where are the scenes of Mags and Emma showing up to diplomatic meetings with their usual smugness only to realize everyone else is teleconferencing through a LMD, they can't use the telepathy to gain an advantage, and experienced diplomats and politicians run circles around them because a guy whose only negotiating tactic is attempted genocide and woman who uses mindcontrol as a rhetorical device can't cut it on an even playing field. Where is the rest of the world revoking mutant citizenship when the join Krakoa because the diplomatic immunity demand essentially requires it?

            Secret Empire was just mutants making a deal for self-governance to stall as they prepared for an invasion instead of immediately genuflecting to fascists taking over the country.

            >we're not genuflecting to fascists
            >we're simply working with them to meet their goals to get what we want until we're in a position to attack them later
            >now that someone else has done all the heavy lifting defeating we'll pretend we were opposing them the whole time
            WW2 USSR minus the Eastern Front isn't exactly a good look.

            • 4 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              >we're simply working with them to meet their goals

              But they weren’t.

            • 4 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              Someone post the text explaining how Medusa is infinitely a better diplomat than Cyclops.

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Both Gillen and Hickman write Sinister as a flaming homosexual I’m not sure what you’re getting at here

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Hickman wrote him as a wacky science man. Gillen kept reiterating that no, this man is absolutely evil.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous
        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          I know Gillen's works made it far more explicitly a fake persona he forced upon himself to get people to underestimate him, which ended up going deeper than that almost by accident. Cause the narrative made it very clear that absolutely nobody buys into Sinister's campy personality or habits or even pretend to believe he's reformed, but they're so wrapped up in their own petty issues and rivalries that Sinister's general fussiness and seeming lack of moral fiber or backbone ended up making people subconsciously underestimate him anyways, at least to the point that they'll willingly deal with him on the presumption that they can still control and/or destroy him at their leisure. Which is pretty much the key to his 'success' as it were in the Krakoa era, that the X-men and their former villain turned allies basically gave themselves the worst of their respective traits and became too self-absorbed with their own vision of the "big picture" that Sinister's goals went completely unnoticed until it was too late or a deus ex machina stopped him.

          I don't know if I'd call it good characterization, since they leaned a bit too hard into making him quippy over cold, but it at least made more sense than some of the other character revisions they tried in this era.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Cold Sinister ended in 2011 when Gillen had him killing and re-cloning himself with a slightly modified brain over and over again to get the perfect personality.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            It's kinda like Fraction's Hawkeye run where Clint is going through a depression episode and every writer after him ran Hawkguy into the fricking ground.

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Hickman’s Sinister was just “LoOk gUys I aM zaNy! I LoVe caPeS!”

          Gillen’s Sinister meanwhile is outlandish and campy sure, but still a completely evil bastard. Ie he will make ridiculous experiments like Xavier DNA turtle and cat with Cyclops’s powers, but also he’s planning to murder everyone in the room just to advance his personal interests.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Sinister is the reader mockery that we agree with.
            I still think that 90s Sinister was still more powerful and savage than the current thinner Sinister.

  57. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    The pulled Hickman off of writing. I really liked Krakoa and wish it went a bit longer. gays reeeee about how they're not formulaic superheros, and while I somewhat agree, it was nice to see a disruption to the status quo.

  58. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Total mutie genocide

  59. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    I hate the moral compromises because there's no payoff to them.

  60. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    The dominions stuff was just as bad as the Orchis and AI stuff

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Gillen writes circles around Duggan though the big flaw of his run is that he never offered any kind of explanation as to how a 19th century geneticist was able to create such an advanced computer (completely outside of his wheelhouse) and sophisticated cloning techniques that SInister himself didn't even have until after he was killed for the first time during Messiah Complex. It's a "this story happens this way because I said it did" way of writing that he could have gotten away with in the 60s when people were writing comics for children, but he's clearly not writing a book for kids.

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Just pretend it was because of Apocalypse.

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        It's just Gillen jerking off to Sinister/Essex. Unfortunately Gillen tends to do that a lot (look at his original uncanny run) like Hickman does to Great Man Theory.

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Enigma could influence the past, so it's literally deus ex machina

  61. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    first* krakoan age

  62. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Am I weird for finding Hickman's stuff pretty soulless and devoid of passion?

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      No. Dude is an autist in the bad way.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      No, that’s all of his writing

  63. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    This whole thing seemed entirely reactionary to common comic journalist sentiment and big brained ideas from people who are only into the idea of X-Men, not the actual story or canon.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      I think "the analogy" is something of an albatross around the X-Men brand's neck. Not that it shouldn't be a thing, it's an unique hook, but people get too caught up in it and create nonsense as a result. I'm glad it's becoming more common for people to point out the MLK/Malcom X thing was wrong, Lee's X-Men was nearly as big on social issues as casuals think, and Claremont's reinvention of Magneto was a criticism of Zionism. Post-2000 X-Men media hyperfixated on it but it wasn't always like that.

      I always believed there'd be a breaking point for it and it's more a question of when.

  64. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    many, many mutants would not join krakoa death cult shit. hickman's dumbass had almost the entire known catalogue of mutants join with no questions asked.

    it would have been better if only like 40% of mutants joined, and would have had the same outcome anyway.

  65. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    do people who hate the new re-luanch realize there are more active xmen and fighting mutants than ever now? who cares about 200k nobodies in the white hot room when mutants are literally born everyday.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      that's something of another problem. there's been so many characters introduced that it would be fine having some of the newer ones being developed more

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Krakoa fans really want their comfy queer lefty white hot room ethnostate AU book even though the reason why Marvel isn't doing that is because they know it'll sell squat.

  66. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >moira gets to live a new life in a new universe with all the knowledge of the terrible shit she's done, except... she isn't a mutant and won't re incarnate so it's a good ending

    lmao

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      yeah Moria is weird paradox in that she is a character desperate to survive at any cost but also her end goal is just to die in a normal live something she could have just done as a mutant

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        not to mention countless other marvel characters who share a similar fate and don't go insane (actually most of them)

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        that's because no matter what she does, she keeps repeating the same life over and over again, but with different outcomes and little details. holy frick you're dense

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          it was only 10 times. and guess what all the death she caused was all worth it because she got what she wanted in the end kek.

  67. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    mutant powerlevels are off the charts and basically all the most powerful mutants lived through krakoa.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      nah bro, x-men just took down the most powerful hate group they ever faced (orchis), plus the most powerful nimrod, plus enigma.

      but uhhh some hate groups are gonna pose a serious threat to mutants in the next launch somehow???

  68. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    So what's stopping the mutants from returning to Krakoa and picking up where they left off?

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Marvel exiled the non-marketable ones to the White Hot Room, aka to comic book limbo
      And let's be frank, they had four years to do something interesting with the Krakoa state status quo. They're not getting more.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      they are safer in the white hot place. but they also have a whole planet??? lol.

  69. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    just focus on the characters, for the love of god. i'm looking forward to the re-launch because the characters will be the focus at least for a little while.

  70. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >Also strong teams like Brubaker on Cap, Knaufs and later Fraction on Iron Man, JMS and later Gillen on Thor, etc.

    >For X-Men it was a lost decade in Hickman's own words since they were straitjacketed by Decimation and had an even worse editor than Brevoort in the form of Nick Lowe and of course later they had Bendis and were fricked over by Inhumans because of the movie rights. X-Men had too much going againt them.
    You praise Brubaker, Fraction and Gillen, even though those same three people were also writing the x-books during that same period of time.
    Lowe is a poor editor because he lets writers do whatever the hell they want within the guidelines of what the EiC allows. But Carey and Gillen were doing damn fine work back then. I personally didn't care for any of Fraction or Brubaker's Marvel books.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      That's not true. We have known for years that Hope and Messiah Complex and Messiah War were due to Lowe. And probably the same for maintaining the post-HoM status quo like he's doing now with OMD/BND on the Spider-books.

      He's not some guy who let's the writers do what they want. He was clearly influencing in what they could or couldn't do. And the fact that No-More-Mutants took so long to undue speaks to how the X-books were straitjacketed.

      And Carey and Gillen were never given the support that Bendis for example had on the x-books.

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >And probably the same for maintaining the post-HoM status quo like he's doing now with OMD/BND on the Spider-books.
        Those were both Quesada mandates, he wasn't going to let any editor working under him undo them. Now it's a Cebulski mandate. Lowe letting Spencer do whatever the hell he wanted on Spider-Man even though he was told about the elements he wasn't allowed to touch led to those painful rewrites at the end.

        >no one is... hunting down back issues of District X
        Probably because it's written by that hack David Hine.

        I liked Hine tbh. District X, Silent War, Spawn, all good.

  71. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    i'd like to read a on going where a group of the younger more powerful mutants (think new x-men up to hope summers) go on a space-faring adventure

  72. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Hiring Sinister when they had at least ten ways to just take knowledge from him and leave him out.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      But anon, Hickman wanted to have the zany Deadpool Eugenist. Who cares if it doesn't make sense or the characters look like idiots for allowing Sinister onto the Quiet Council, Hickman wanted it and therefore it's good!

      Jordan has pretty much said Brevoort was wiener blocking them from using Namor and Franklin.

      Honestly, good. They'd have just made Franklin into an even bigger plot device than he already was, and as funny as the idea of Namor and Apocalypse having a dick measuring contest when the diplomacy for Atlantis and Krakoa began, you know it'd never come to anything near as interesting as that. Hell, the fact that the X-men spend zero effort to actually show them trying to reach out to other nations or the heroes of those nations to keep themselves on good terms really shows nobody believed this shit would last long.

      Honestly, fricking great. Hickman got to put his fingers into way too many pies and derail so many characters in his Avengers run. Glad to see someone realising that allowing Hickman access to whoever he wants is a bad idea and will derail everyone else's books.

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        I was fine with them working with Sinister cause when the series started I was under the impression everyone was being mind-controlled cause of how creepy everyone acted and because Xavier looked exactly like the Maker but I guess that was never the intention

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          I also thought it was gonna b a mind control thing.

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Hickman did an interview about this recently and said no it was never supposed to be ominous.

          I honestly think he doesn't understand how human emotions work sometimes. Like he's a weird worldbuilding robot that tries to beepboop through human interaction

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            is hickman autistic? it's definitely ominous.
            that actually feels like a lie to retroactively realign his hypothetical 'vision' with what we ended up getting to me, because i legit reread HoX/PoX for this thread, and both are ominous as frick about Krakoa (though PoX less so - it's just kinda confused in general).

            • 4 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              I don't know if it's cope or not. He seems to be hyping up his unmade plans a ton lately

  73. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    The state of the X-men line before Krakoa was abysmal, Marvel just kept reseting the thing every year and people began to bail out completely. X-men had a massive need to just pick one direction and stick to that for a couple of years, just for doing that Krakoa was an improvement.

    Covid killed its momentum right as it was starting, though.

  74. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >start of the run sets up dominions as the overarching threat
    >it's just fricking sinister again but this time he's gold

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Gillen's a bleeding heart, the idea of mutants and humanity teaming up to oppress an Other did not sit well with him. Told Hickman to frick right off while elevating his own favorite villain.

  75. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >trying to read up on the x-men
    >read 5+ books
    >still constantly surprised i miss important shit
    >always find out someone died or showed up again after the fact
    Crossover events makes this shit unreadable for someone that isn't already embedded in 616.
    And the writing just gets worse and worse, i'm pretty sure a php marvel plot generator is behind every story.

  76. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >mgh
    is inanimate. if she's referring to experimentation then experimenting on yourself is more ethical than experimenting on animals or other people. not an argument

    >legacy virus
    beast did not create the legacy virus. beast is not responsible for the legacy virus

    >threnody
    was completely unstable and could spontaneously kill people without anyone being able to prepare for it because there was no way to test for the Legacy Virus at the time. she was literally spontaneously exploding and killing people at random and was not safe to have around groups of people. then later when the x-men came to save threnody she chose to stay with sinister. the fact that this is continually brought up is fricking stupid and asinine

    >alignment with the inhumans
    this takes out the context that he was the one to tell the x-men about what the inhumans were doing, because he was loyal to the x-men, and trying to stop a race war. writers a shitty b***hes

    >the illuminati
    this isn't even known by most marvel characters, because the timeline was reset at the end of that arc. not to mention the mind gem was willed to him after xavier died. the responsibility of SAVING THE FRICKING WORLD was thrust upon him

    >appointment as the director of x-force
    precisely. he was appointed. by the council, to do exactly what was necessary, and given implicit permission to do whatever it takes, so the rest of the x-men could act like badasses but keep their hands clean

    >terra verde
    >space prison
    out of character for beast and bullshit writing

    >poisoning someone's daughter
    i don't remember this but it sounds like out of character bullshit

    >wolverine
    is himself a mass murderer, who murdered his own innocent clone when he himself was not abandoned or killed in the past when he used to be in an animals tate

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      P.S.

      sage airing dirty laundry when half of the stuff mentioned happened before krakoa, while actual war crimes villains were just forgiven of their pre-krakoa activities, is absolutely a double standard the writers are maintaining to shit on beast

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Beast had nothing to do with MGH. The serum he created that transformed him into his furry form wasn't MGH and more recent comics revealed that MGH predates the current MU time period.

      P.S.

      sage airing dirty laundry when half of the stuff mentioned happened before krakoa, while actual war crimes villains were just forgiven of their pre-krakoa activities, is absolutely a double standard the writers are maintaining to shit on beast

      You forgot that Sage is an accessory to a huge amount of heinous shit when she was undercover in the Hellfire Club.

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >beast had nothing to do with MGH

        oh okay then. the writers are even stupider than i thought. can't say i'm surprised

        i didn't forget, i honestly didn't know sage was in hellfire club stuff. thanks for letting me know. marvel definitely fricking up big time if they're shitting on beast this hard, so incompetently

  77. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Got a qrd on how things ended and what's happening now?

  78. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    What are the hanging plot threads from all this? There's been so much shit going on, I've lost track of a number of plots. Whatever happened to Gwenpool retcon powering herself to be a mutant? The antlered ecoterrorist? Danger living in the old mansion? The spare Moira clone they have in storage? Whatever happened to Scout? Also the dumbass kids she used to hang with, like Cosmer? The other dumbass kid wondering in Otherworld? Betsy faffing about with mutant Mordred? What the frick did Mr. Fantastic tell Xavier at the gala? What was the point of the "first" mutants they brought to the future from the ancient mutant city? What the hell are they going to do with Mars and what the hell happened to the Orchis shit on Phobos?

    Shit, there's a ton I'm not even remembering.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Is Jubilee's kid still in Otherworld? Are they finally going to pretend he doesn't exist?

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Why couldn't Kitty Pryde use the Krakoan gates?

  79. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    It was the first time the X-Men have been relevant since Morrison and people shit on it repeatedly because "not muh x-men" or something. I don't get it.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      It's because the core premise goes against what the X-Men's typically about.

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        It does not. It embraces it.

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          What are you talking about? The X-Men's for ethnonationalism?

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Can you really look at modern X-Men, pre-Krakoan Era, and say that? The fence sitting during Civil War? The whole "mutants first" approach that kickstarted AvX? The race war with the Inhumans? The excuse is always, "We're doing what we need to for our own survival," which, I'll point out, is the same excuse they used for making the Krakoan nation state. The funny thing is the drugs they offered were sincere, and even when they were slowly reforming areas such as restarting an X-Men team based in New York for outreach purposes and opening up resurrection for humans, too, Orchis fricked all that up.

            What are the hanging plot threads from all this? There's been so much shit going on, I've lost track of a number of plots. Whatever happened to Gwenpool retcon powering herself to be a mutant? The antlered ecoterrorist? Danger living in the old mansion? The spare Moira clone they have in storage? Whatever happened to Scout? Also the dumbass kids she used to hang with, like Cosmer? The other dumbass kid wondering in Otherworld? Betsy faffing about with mutant Mordred? What the frick did Mr. Fantastic tell Xavier at the gala? What was the point of the "first" mutants they brought to the future from the ancient mutant city? What the hell are they going to do with Mars and what the hell happened to the Orchis shit on Phobos?

            Shit, there's a ton I'm not even remembering.

            Maddy running a hell embassy in New York, maybe? Scott's brother possibly being a zombie?

            • 4 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              >Can you really look at modern X-Men, pre-Krakoan Era, and say that? The fence sitting during Civil War? The whole "mutants first" approach that kickstarted AvX? The race war with the Inhumans? The excuse is always, "We're doing what we need to for our own survival," which, I'll point out, is the same excuse they used for making the Krakoan nation state. The funny thing is the drugs they offered were sincere, and even when they were slowly reforming areas such as restarting an X-Men team based in New York for outreach purposes and opening up resurrection for humans, too, Orchis fricked all that up.

              I'm somebody who thinks the X-Men have been stuck in a downward slump ever since M-Day. The militant direction made sense at the time but then they never really got out of it besides a few bright spots.

              The X-men aren't superheroes they are racial activists fighting for their own species and culture. And krakoa embraces that fully for the first time.

              The mutants are not a separate species no matter how much they claim.

              >evolution will always end in one species exterminating another

              I always hated that angle to the X-Men because it's complete psuedo-science even in-universe, The FOX movies also went hard on that which I think additionally poisoned the well. They're still 100% human and little about them qualifies for a new species. They don't truebreed and the X-gene has been part of the human genome for at least a million years thus it predates modern humans. It's all part of the same Celestial gene frickery those guys did across the universe. The Atlanteans have a better claim to being a separate species than the mutants who only share a RNG rolling gene and nothing else.

              Plus it's naturally at odds with using them as any kind of minority analogy with the implications it has which is a rabbit hole in itself

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                They're still an ethnic group subject to constant perseuction

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                They're not really ethnic group either. What shared culture does...idk, Iceman and Storm share? There's no real thread connecting them beyond the X-Men and being randos who lucked into a genetic lottery.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Oh i know. Mutants really like orgies and free estate. They also like abandoning babies infront of the church and then go back to have more orgies

                Also mutants must wear high fashion and skin tight spandex

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                God I love Wanda

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                While Remender is kind of an ass I honestly wish that that the stuff in those last two panels was something Marvel cared about. They never give a shit about mutants coming from different cultures, they just treat their country of origin as a funny novelty. They're all written as generic Americans in different ethnic costumes and I fricking hate it.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                My personal dream solution for the issues with modern X-Men is replacing "mutants as an allegory" with fully treating the X-gene as a fictional thing and actually doing stuff with the X-Men coming from diverse backgrounds. The amount of possibilities would absolutely skyrocket since you can explore how different aspects what any of the cast is interacts with each other while having the status of mutants being much more fluid. Acceptance can actually ebb and flow since it's no longer tied down to a nebulous idea of discrimination which frankly will always exist in some form in society despite efforts to mitigate it.

                This is something that Krakoa fans never talk about because they are so obssessed about mutant solidarity. Almost every single iconic X-men storyline is about them fighting other mutants or aliens or time-travelers or some shit like that. Human racist villains are ultimately uninteresting because the dynamic is already clear. Why would you bother? The X-Men fighting Magneto is interesting because they should be on the same side but aren't, and it can say a lot about their characters on both sides. The X-Men fighting orchis is a void of interest because Orchis has no redeeming features, no interesting philosophy and nothing to offer in terms of cool action set pieces. Krakoa decided that every interesting X-Men villain would now be their ally and that leaves so little to work with and even the few mutant villains who went unredeemed like Cassandra Nova were dealt with in humiliating side titles.

                A lot of it boils down to they refuse to actually examine discrimination in any meaningful way and always resort to lynch mobs or glorified lynch mobs.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                I wish they'd dispense with the "mutants are a universal culture" thing. I really do. I find it much more compelling reading about people with different backgrounds trying to coexist and learning to be friends like in Claremont's run than "you are a mutant welcome to mutanthood" like Morrison and Hickman do it. It's so fake and artificial

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            The X-men aren't superheroes they are racial activists fighting for their own species and culture. And krakoa embraces that fully for the first time.

            • 4 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              And the truth is all their human bigot villains are boring as shit or are you going to tell me that ORCHIS or Friends of Humanity are actually interesting and dynamic villains? Face it, all their fun villains are aliens and mutants.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                This is something that Krakoa fans never talk about because they are so obssessed about mutant solidarity. Almost every single iconic X-men storyline is about them fighting other mutants or aliens or time-travelers or some shit like that. Human racist villains are ultimately uninteresting because the dynamic is already clear. Why would you bother? The X-Men fighting Magneto is interesting because they should be on the same side but aren't, and it can say a lot about their characters on both sides. The X-Men fighting orchis is a void of interest because Orchis has no redeeming features, no interesting philosophy and nothing to offer in terms of cool action set pieces. Krakoa decided that every interesting X-Men villain would now be their ally and that leaves so little to work with and even the few mutant villains who went unredeemed like Cassandra Nova were dealt with in humiliating side titles.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                The human villains could work if they broke them down into unique ideologies to give them distinctions.

                Purifiers are an umbrella group that is all the religious-based anti-mutant beliefs regardless of which religion and even includes a bunch of self-loathing mutants who lost their powers on M-Day (they see it as a miracle redeeming them from sin) and post-AvX nu-mutants (who see it as a tribulation/curse). Friends of Humanity who hate everyone who isn't a baseline human and operate across the wider MU. The Reavers as tech based transhuman eugenicists (the X-gene is obsolete and threat to the future). The U-Men, who don't need much change at all. And the Sapien League, reworked to be an explicitly anti X-Men/Brotherhood organization rather than a general anti-mutant organization.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Damn I forgot most of them even existed. Which says a lot.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Cause frankly, they've reduced them all to the same tier as your typical KKK-style racist redneck in terms of threat level. It says something that in recent time they've had more use out of the Friends of Humanity as a front group for corporations looking to exploit the symbiotes than as a mutant hate group.

                Hell, I'm more surprised that the X-men stories haven't latched onto the obvious sub-group of racists, the normal humans that would want to work FOR the evil mutants like the Brotherhood or the Hellfire club because they buy into the propoganda that Magneto et. all project of mutants being the new rulers of humanity and thus these guys want their place in the new world order or even are hoping that they'll be granted powers by their new masters. They got close with the U-Men, but even those guys are still inherently against mutants to a degree by the fact they're trying to transplant their super-kidneys into themselves. Where the hell are the mutant stans and zealots and turncoats? Hell, with how many mutants can easily imitate gods and pyshic cult leaders, you'd think they'd be all over the damn place, especially for someone like Magneto or Living Monolith.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Orchis just being useless mooks, Nimrod and Sentinels was so fricking dull.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                This is where you go and mock the "Magneto is right" crowd in the comics by having them basically worshipping and self-flagellating how sorry they are for being born human and how much better mutants are. Shame that no writer has the balls to call out the CBR X-gays.

            • 4 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              >The X-men aren't superheroes they are racial activists fighting for their own species and culture.
              That's not the premise Stan and Jack or even Claremont used.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >That's not the premise Stan and Jack or even Claremont used.
                The X-Men were based on MLK versus Malcolm X though. You can't say that isn't political.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                That's bullshit Stan parroted in the nineties from college kids' letters. Earlier interviews he says he was tired of coming up with origins.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                I don't think Stan ever claimed that was the original premise of the X-Men, but he did say the mutants as a stand-in for real marginalized groups came naturally. This is clearest in the original Sentinel story.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >The X-Men were based on MLK versus Malcolm X though.
                A revisionist falsehood. Stan was just tired of coming up with unique origin stories for superheroes. Magneto was pure evil, was cruel to his own Brotherhood and wanted to rule the world with only himself at the top. The "they hate us because we're so gifted" elements, that came from Stan and Jack's own israeli background.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                No, they cribbed the idea from scifi magazines at the time regarding the theoretical dangers of radiation creating a race of super psychics that would take over mankind. Hell, they outright recreate those images as political toons made by Bolivar Trask in the fifteenth issue.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous
              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                kinda wanna read this, whats the issue, year etc?

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                That's the original Stan Lee/Jack Kirby run of the X-men, specifically the 14th issue with the debut of the Sentinels. Also, while I don't debate the possibility of reading the struggles of the X-men as a racial allegory, conflicts like the reasons for the Sentinels being introduced as a defense against agents "hiding" amongst the normal citizens definitely read more like a condemnation of the Red Scare which happened less than a decade ago. At least, in my opinion.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                ...And I just realized you were probably talking about the news article, my bad. The blog I grabbed the image from listed it as Fawcett's Mechanix Illustrated V49N8, one of the 1953 issues.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                No, they cribbed the idea from scifi magazines at the time regarding the theoretical dangers of radiation creating a race of super psychics that would take over mankind. Hell, they outright recreate those images as political toons made by Bolivar Trask in the fifteenth issue.

                The key takeaway from the first Sentinel story that EVERY MODERN CREATOR IGNORES is that when Xavier reads this he goes

                "Wow, this guy is making up insane racist shit about mutants, I need to expose him as the nutjob he is"

                Today it's "I will debate this man to prove the genetic superiority of mutants and tell the public that our inevitable triumph is nothing to fear as they will all die out peacefully"

                See the difference, X-Writers?

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                But diversity is supposed to mean less white men, Anon.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                The key takeaway from the first Sentinel story that most fans and creators ignore is how the entire "mutant scare" panic thing lasts for a few pages of the first chapter of a 3 issue story. The Sentinels go rogue as soon as they're activated, and try to take over the world. The story is just a stock science fiction plot about man's own creation turning against him, but everyone fixated on the set-up for how the Sentinels got created rather than the main meat of the story.

                Stan's script for that issue forgetting to mention the actual mutant terrorist leader and his henchmen who'd been trying to take over the world in 6 of the previous 13 issues also somehow results in people seeing Trask as being just paranoid racist out of nowhere rather than people having legitimate fears of humans being crushed in Magneto's race war.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >"Dude it's always been MLK vs Malcom X"
                >Look inside
                >Budget Fantastic Four but with teenagers

                It probably says something about how bad Lee's X-Men is when people have just been making shit up about them for literal decades and nobody bothers to actually read the comics to find out.

                >I think it's a great idea they didn't do squat with.
                As a general rule of thumb if Marvel didn't do squat with an idea decades ago when they were actually good, they're not likely to do anything worthwhile with it in the future. Thus the twins, and by extension Luna, Wiccan and Speed all being unrelated to Magneto is no great loss at all.

                And like [...] says, the current books handling of the way Lorna and the twins are with Magneto is moronic, it's pandering to delusional casuals who don't care about the actual history between them.

                Again, I know. I'm saying hypothetically it would've been great if they did something with it at the time.

                I also think modern writers trying to pretend there's any paternal bond between Mags and the twins/Lorna is fricking moronic too. I understand.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                ...And I just realized you were probably talking about the news article, my bad. The blog I grabbed the image from listed it as Fawcett's Mechanix Illustrated V49N8, one of the 1953 issues.

                https://archive.org/details/sim_todays-homeowner-solutions_1953-12_49_8/page/108/mode/2up
                it has a lot of adds (original of tha magazine )

            • 4 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              and that's moronic, because saying you have your own culture and that others can't be a part of it comes close to segregation, and in fact mutants on krakoa become segregationist

              this is why liberals are fascists. they think they're respecting other cultures but really they strengthen the boundaries between people and embolden bigots opposed to them, entrenching culture wars and factionalism

  80. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    So when is Cinemaphile gonna "Storytime of Pain" the entire Krakoa saga?

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      it's not bad enough to warrant that title

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        It totally is.

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        oh it definitely is when it comes to the writing

  81. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    It is kind of funny how Mutants used to shit on the Inhuman for "digging a hole in the ground and seperate themselves from the rest of the world", how "Mutants pride themselves for not hiding and for how relentless we stride to live together along side humans". And now look at what they became, they are basically the Inhuman, but with blackjack and hookers. Hell, they even converted some Inhuman to become Mutants, that is fricken hilarious

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      yeah i agree with you

      pretty funny how inhumans sucked, didn't sell, and then marvel just make mutants behave more like inhumans, and it sucked and didn't sell

  82. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Aight that's it. I'm writing my own X-Men universe so I can take everything I love about Claremont, Morrison, and Ultimate and smash em together and filter them through my own ideas, with a side of FOX-Men movies.
    The big main arcs would be Sinister is behind or at least has his hand in most world issues for the past 200 years because he's trying to play a long game of eugenically engineering the human race and manipulating culture to create a super slave race and achieve godhood, but when he wakes up Apocalypse in the 80s, right when the next generation of X-Men is living and learning at the institute, his hubris gets the best of him and he does trying to harness Apocalypse as his next tool in his master plan. Apocalypse then decides "now that I'm finally fricking back time to become god again". This causes a cataclysmic world wide event that brings mankind to its knees, and causes the deployment of the Sentinel program, which then goes haywire as the AI malfunctions and begins to exterminate human and mutant alike. Thats all I got so far and that's broad strokes I funno

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      So basically just the same dystopian shit the actual comics are doing.

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        With the eventual end point of human and mutant coexistence. There's going to be fun and wonderful times, there's going to be bleak and god awful times. A LOT of characters are going to die along the way, horribly some of the time. But at the end of it all, the flaws and sins of both Xavier and his XMen and Magneto and his Brotherhood will be reconciled and adapted into a synergy that brings about a bright and beautiful future that makes all those deaths worthwhile.
        With an emphasis on personal relations and societal ills, and people getting caught up in group v group, it won't pull punches and it won't be perpetual status quo stasis.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >I'm writing my own X-Men universe
      so basically what John Byrne did, Marvel even offered to publish it which he declined

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      I forgot how much better Storm's cat eyes are than the white fade out eyes with no pupils.

  83. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >Hope is a c**t
    What went wrong,Cablebro?

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Absentee father figure who raised her to be a soldier while not offering her time to be a child. It would frick even the best person up

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Gotta watch out for those black fathers.

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        gotta watch out for shit writers having bishop napalm the entire continent of south america just so beast can be wrong and rightclops can be right

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Yeah I liked Bishop and didn't like how he became Evil Cable with Messiah Complex. Even though I find a lot of modern politics cringe I'm glad such a story would never be greenlighted/demanded today.

  84. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    bump for being an actual good discussion over this shit era.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      It already hit the bump limit, we'd have to make a new thread

  85. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    BP

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