The more I read old Batman comics and the more I learn about Batman history, the more this book stands out to me. Not only is it an incredible comic in its own right, it’s importance in Batman history cannot be overstated.
It’s kinda funny, this is usually recommended as a beginner Batman comic, and it is a good one, but it really can’t be fully appreciated before you’ve read more of what came before it
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Fpic (first post incomprehensible post)
He is saying you were introduced to batman by movies
Why do.you think tdkr is so.in connection to batman's past?
I’m gonna be honest I’ve been into Batman for so long I don’t remember what came first, the movies or the comics. I had a VHS copy of Adam West’s Batman movie, a paperback of Batman In The Sixties, a bunch of copies of The Batman Chronicles, a subscription to The Batman Strikes, and saw Batman Begins when I was six as my first Batman movie in theaters. That was Batman for me as a kid
You haven't lived that long.
It reinvented the Batman mythos and character in only positive ways
Oops, hit send too song. Alright let me state my thoughts
1. In Batman canon before this story, Joe Chill was a mobster connected to a gang that targeted the Wayne’s as a hit man. This is from Batman #47 - The Origin Of Batman, Detective Comics #235 - The First Batman, and his official origin comic at the time: The Untold Legend Of The Batman (1982)
The Dark Knight Returns has this confrontation with these random mutants where Bruce muses on his parents murder. It’s clear that Chill was just a random mugger. This is so much better, and it became canon in future Batman stories. Bruce’s parents death is better as a random mugging because he wars on crime as a concept, before that Batman is just a side note in a revenge story. Or, he got revenge and now he just acts as Batman causes… he’s used to it? Miller focuses the Batman story
2. It recharacterized Batman as a determined, focused, soldier in a war. In the stories before it he veers between wholesome Boy Scout and somber detective. Miller portrays him as honestly a little crazy, but it works for the story. The entire modern Batman personality is effectively a smoothed ironed out version of the personality first shown in Dark Knight Returns.
It also added the fear of bats. Before, Bruce simply saw a bat, took it as an omen, and became a bat. The whole falling in a well/conquering fears thing comes from Dark Knight Returns.
3. It reinterprets the Alfred/Bruce relationship as one of a caretaker and his masters orphaned child, as opposed to the original one where Alfred merely enters Bruce’s life later. This pic related is the beginning of mega changes to how Alfred would be written
4. Reinterpreted Two Face as a fundamentally tragic and personal figure. His origin always involved Batman sure, but this comic is, as far as I know, where you see this idea of them having a long personal history. This comic and Miller’s Year One recreated Two Face
5. Reinterpreted Batman/Joker’s relationship as one of mutual obsession. Joker had been psycho killer, harmless clown, everything in between, but this comic, as far as I know, gave them that relationship they have now.
Those are my main thoughts
I’m not knocking seventies Batman, it’s awesome. And I say Batman is always recognizably Batman, people sometimes say stuff like “oh those silver age villains are all just jokes and Batman is all goofy” or “golden age Batman killed and used guns bro he wasn’t Batman” (and then they utterly skip over the bronze age). But I still say Frank Miller’s Batman work in the eighties did more to set in define the character than almost anyone (I’d only put the works of Bill Finger/Bob Kane above it in importance)
BTAS has a lot of O’Neil and a lot of Englehart, but it’s also got a lot of Miller people don’t notice
>5. Reinterpreted Batman/Joker’s relationship as one of mutual obsession.
So TDKR is the origin of Joker being gay for Batman?
Yes, to my knowledge. I haven’t seen that interpretation of their relationship before it
I think it's hard for people post-TDKR to appreciate how big of an impact it had, since we live in the world it made. A lot of really influential works often come across as boring or even, ironically, derivative because so much of what came after was influenced by them. Batman had certainly taken a turn away from the sillier 50-60s stuff thanks to creators like O'Neil/Adams, but TDKR really crystallized what modern Batman is and continues to be.
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SeinfeldIsUnfunny
The name they chose for it is fricking moronic though.
>The name they chose for it is fricking moronic though.
True.
Because Seinfeld IS unfunny.
What makes TDKR particularly fascinating for me is that it gave Batman a rebirth (that O'Neill set the foundation for) while also being a story about Batman's culmination.
>omber detective. Miller portrays him as honestly a little crazy, but it works for the story. The entire modern Batman personality is effectively a smoothed ironed out version of the personality first shown in Dark Knight Returns.
Somber detective is a better personality than what DKR and trying to imitate it gave us.
Nah. Old Beast Batman blitzing through a more fricked-up Gotham, saving his city and conquering his enemies, even coaxing a god, is the best.
Unhinged Batman works for the story TDKR tells and Miller obviously understood this since Year One Batman is another character entirely.
I don't know who he's trying to fool when he says Year One and ASBAR share continuity.
>4. Reinterpreted Two Face as a fundamentally tragic and personal figure. His origin always involved Batman sure, but this comic is, as far as I know, where you see this idea of them having a long personal history. This comic and Miller’s Year One recreated Two Face
Go back and read his comics from the 40s you fricking casual. Jesus christ. Two-Face has always been tragic and personal for Batman, it stood out even more in a time when 80% of Batman villain's were extremally one note and Bruce didn't give a shit about them. Harvey had an entire arc about getting scarred, losing his wife, and later being permanently cure.
Grow up nerd
Absolutely untrue
The art is ugly
The art is beautiful in its ugliness
>The art is beautiful in its ugliness
This. Miller's art shows a worn out Batman in a gritty Gotham before grim n gritty comics became a running cliche. You can blame Returns and Watchmen for turning the 90s into being filled with grim n gritty shit, but the original works were some of the 80s comics going against the grain. They took some of the grit of underground and indie comics and seinen manga and put them right into DC books.
Filtered
Same.
I feel the opposite honestly. People make it out to be like DKR invented the modern Batman, but Batman as he is in a modern sense already existed in the 70's and 80's. If DKR never happened we'd still have BTAS, for example. The material that was derived from was more 70's BAtman comics than anything else.
>we'd still have BTAS
Probably not.
Bruce Timm, who isn't a superfan of TDKR like others are, is on the record crediting TDKR for the existence of BTAS.
I remember a number of people Kevin Smith interviewed on old Fatman on Batman episodes (Jim Lee and Joe Quesada come to mind but I know there were others) who, not suprisingly, specifically cite TDKR and Watchmen as what made them want to pursue a career in comics. A pretty common story of people that age in interviews is that they read comics as kids, gave them up, then had their minds blown in the mid-80s by those two books and wanted to make comics themselves. It's very hard to say what things would be like if only Watchmen existed, but TDKR had an enormous influence not just on Batman but how the whole American comic industry exists.
Batman looks, acts and even some arcs are LITERALLY taken straight from 70's and 80's batman you moron
Yeah the idea that Batman wasn't going to get a cartoon after two hit movies, or that a Batman movie with serious tones wasn't going to be made if not for DKR is fricking hilarious. DKR didn't make that big a splash outside comic circles. To anyone not taking it as gospel, its almost ridiculous in absurdity. Big hulk Batman ruminating about politics and beating up Superman. You can think thats a stupid oversimplification-and it is, but its how a lot of people outside comics viewed it. You see cartoons lampooning DKR's grittiness semi-often. Even BTAS approached Miller's DKR BAtman as an outlier approach to their own, as different as the 50's Dick sprang era stuff.
Batman 89 owes more to the general 80's trend of making movie versions of 60's shows out of nostalgia, like The Untouchables or Dragnet. Yes, DJKR was probably used in production(there is the Corto Maltese reference after all) as an example of a modern, serious Bat story but it wasn't a linchpin in getting it made.
moron, Burton specifically cited The Dark Knight Returns as an influence
Both the films and TAS were facilitated because of TDKR's cultural impact. They don't share a lot of DNA, but they still owe Miller (and O'Neill obviously).
Watterson only had love for strips, none for superhero comics. I get it.
There's a whole documentary outlining its impact. Editors and other creators (such as Grant Morrison and Dennis O'Neil) talk about its importance. Harlan Ellison and Stephen King have heaped praise upon it since it came out. Even Alan Moore wrote an essay in favor of it that's been included in the earliest trade paperbacks.
>The success of The Dark Knight Returns and the graphic novel Batman: The Killing Joke rekindled Warner Bros.' interest in a film adaptation. Burton was initially not a comic book fan, but he was impressed by the dark and serious tone found in both The Dark Knight Returns and The Killing Joke.[7]
Bruce Timm:
>Thank you, Frank, 'cause now I have a job. I've been employed here at Warner Bros for 20- some odd years thanks to that.
The movie would've been made with or without Burton.
>The success of The Dark Knight Returns and the graphic novel Batman: The Killing Joke rekindled Warner Bros.' interest in a film adaptation.
>The success of The Dark Knight Returns and the graphic novel Batman: The Killing Joke rekindled Warner Bros.' interest in a film adaptation.
>The success of The Dark Knight Returns and the graphic novel Batman: The Killing Joke rekindled Warner Bros.' interest in a film adaptation.
Weird hill to die on. TDKR was big; deal with it.
Enthusiastic Miller.
look, its harlan ellison
This thread is b8, right?
>baiting with This is bait.png
Quino.
>baiting with Rent-free nonsense
Possibly Quino.
>baiting with cherrypicks
Not Quino.
>climax
>cherrypick
No.
>same artist, same continuity, but wrong book
Yes.
>wrong book
Completely fricking arbitrary distinction.
That it's literally part 2 implies they're intended as a whole story.
Be glad I didn't fricking use Master Race or All-Star Batman & Robin.
Arbitrary my ass. No matter how you try to spin this, it's the WRONG book. It's not the one we're discussing right now.
Mentioning two more WRONG books is not helping your case at all.
>wrong book
>part 2
How many fricking times have buttholes on Cinemaphile said "Just stick to one writer's run on a character. You don't have to worry about continuity or characterization weirdness and can just treat it as one continuous story."
I am shitting on Miller Batman. Feel free to *wrongly* defend TDKR as some sort of masterpiece, but it's just the olive on top of a shit sandwich.
Miller's Batman comics do not form a run. It's a series of miniseries. The Dark Knight Returns is the miniseries we're discussing right now. It has a beginning and an ending. That he decided to do more 15 years after is irrelevant.
If you want to shit on the sequel, you can start your own thread, newbie.
The Dark Knight Returns is ass too. Just not as ass as the rest. Motherfricker can't write Batman for the life of him.
RoboCop stole so much from this novel
Robocop shares very little of the tone of that comic. Robocop II was literally written BY Frank Miller.
the news reports from Robocop remind me of that TDKR
I guess. Robocop was more about zany dystopian commercials tho.
Robocop's influences came more from 2000 AD (an early Robocop helmet design looked like Dredd's helmet) and some believe Robocop might've also been influenced by Chaykin's American Flagg
Miller himself was also influenced by Chaykin since he, Chaykin, and Simonson shared a studio at one point
Those sort of network TV blips weren't that uncommon in movies int he 70's. Off the top of my head I'm reminded of Network. DKR definitely influenced the Image guys doing it, though.
Miller's writing feels very of the era when it comes to movies, to. Stuff like The Warriors.
Even this random page is full of greatness.
Best Batman comic there is, up there with Year One.
Hot Take: Batman setting cops ("the enemy") on fire with an incendiary bomb to avoid arrest isn't great.
Pun intended.
You are a dumb motherfricker.
that gay batman is only sold million dollars because boomers have too much money. We really should seize their money and all their assets. Frick old people
>Miller Batman
DK2 is a massive pleb filter. Imagine not seeing the spectacular sequential art on those pages.
this was my first bataman book in 2007 and I LOVE IT
I came around to like DK2, but it is still flawed as frick. Though a 00s book, the coloring looks like a badly colored 90s book because Varley was just getting into digital color.
I also hate that it's Dick instead of Jason and what a dark take Miller has on Robin. You also see how Miller was waning a bit and certainly how 9/11 just broke his soul.
>the coloring looks like a badly colored 90s book because Varley was just getting into digital color.
Its meant to be gaudy like a Golden/Silverage comic where they just used whatever bright color for separations. Lynn could've gone more conservative with the colors but Frank wanted her to use every crayon in the box and every tool in photoshop
As for Dick over Jason, don't think about it too hard. I always felt like the only reason its Jason dead in dKR is because editorial told Frank that Dick wans't Robin anymore. I don't think he thinks of much difference between them all. Killing Jason was metaphorically killing Robin in general. Joker Dick is metaphorically raising it from the dead, same with Carrie abandoning the identity.
Is pretty optimistic (other than the Dick stuff) though. It's about getting the gang back. I'm not sure how much 9/11 influenced this book since Issue #1 was out just like a month after it.
>I'm not sure how much 9/11 influenced this book since Issue #1 was out just like a month after it.
A lot; Frank always talked about how he was drawing the Metropolis sequence when 9/11 happened and it completely re-contextualized what he was drawing.
>came before it
It's literally the first good Batman story ever written.
>laughs in Finger, O' Neil, Englehart, Brennert and Conway
*first great
Some of these were just good at best. The Dark Knight Returns is great.
Didn't Year One come beforehand?
Nope, Year one was written after.
Frick Frank Miller's overly-conservative "the media blows police brutality out of proportion" bullshit
You’re moronic
He's right
the book had ambitious art
Anyone else think Superman is written like Captain America in this novel
The art is fantastic, the rough dark cartoonist vibe is great and the fact it gets more cartoony as tone shifts to more epic comic booky adventure is great, you're an idiot with no taste Frank Miller art before 9/11 was always brilliant even as a kid I thought DKR art was cool.
>It’s kinda funny, this is usually recommended as a beginner Batman comic, and it is a good one, but it really can’t be fully appreciated before you’ve read more of what came before it
I feel that Kingdom Come and All-Star Superman are exactly like this; the main base of their appeal is nostalgia for books printed ages ago.
I feel the exact same way about Watchmen, but for the superhero sub-genre in general. It's so much more impactful if you're familiar with the Golden, Silver, and Bronze Ages.
Proud owner of this edition with the one Miller Bat books you need.
As a kid I had the greatest joker stories book in the same format and that book SMELLED really good, seriously
OOOO. I own multiple versions of Year One and Dark Knight Returns, but I am tempted to get this.
>Another great 80's reinvention of a character
>Throw out the widow.
make a list to see what did you read
read dennis o neal batman
you are welcome
Batman #224–225, 227, 232, 234–235, 237, 239–245, 247–248
I did. It was good, probably my third favorite Batman after TDKR and Year One.
Agreed.