We will never get acknowledgement that Suyin was one of the most vile characters in all of Avatar. Woman bought herself a city with crime money, went "let them eat cake" when Kuvira told her that the rest of the Earth Kingdom was falling prey to warlords and roving bandits, and during a cease fire she tried to assassinate the woman she'd raised as like a daughter. She gets to walk off into the sunset.
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But we will acknowledge you shitting up the board Shroommeister
I don't really seethe over cartoon characters so..
youre possibly soulless and incapable of empathy
She is one of the two most baffling character I've seen in cartoons and possibly ever.
"I forgiven myself for attacking and disfiguring my sister during crime spree, why can't she forgive me?" is such a weird way to write a character, let alone someone who isn't a villain.
I guess some kind of wires got crossed in writers' heads, from "holding grudges over something from decades ago is unhealthy" to "you are entitled to be forgiven for your crimes"
>"holding grudges over something from decades ago is unhealthy"
I am very bad at it. I hold grudges forever
I go back and forth about whether Suyin was a creator's pet or just the logical consequence of Bryke's inability to see anything wrong with his preferred economic model. Suyin is the noble and good founder of Hong Kong and Kuvira is Mao or any other leader from early 20th century warlord era China, with poorly written Nazi characteristic. So Suyin's entitlement regarding her sister, not helping the EK, and engaging an in attempted assassination of Kuvira which both prolonged and escalated the war are all framed as good and noble even though they clearly weren't. Bryke wanted to write a villain doing villainous things and get away with them, and never have that be called out by anyone except Kuvira. She's basically Varric 2.0, who himself was a war profiteer whose crimes are played for laughs and never suffers consequences for his actions because he's le funny
>Be a small time criminal
>After being banished I changed for the better
>I use my life to help others now
>Even patched things up with my mother
>Several times try to patch things up with my sister, who doesn't want to listen
>Somehow Anon thinks this makes her evil
The show made it clear that it is Lin who refuses to even acknowledge Suyin becoming a better person. She thinks Suyin is still the same brat as she was when she was a teenager, because she held a grudge since back then instead of growing up.
Wouldn't a better person at least apologize? The show plays it like "I believe in second chances [for myself and my pirate crew] so I didn't do anything wrong, really"
The show makes it pretty Suyin apologized multiple times in the past and has tried over and over to reach out to Lin, but she didn't want to hear it.
You can't just keep apologizing for shit from 30 years ago. Eventually you gotta move on. Suyin did and Lin didn't.
Lin never even met her children.
Apologised but never accepted responsibility. She’s sorry for hurting Suyin but not for everything else she did.
Even if that’s not the case it’s hard to forgive someone for literally assaulting you. It’s framed as an accident in the show but you don’t accidentally resist arrest and attempt to incapacitate an officer, never mind when that officer is family.
In the end Suyin didn’t need to face any sort of punishment and is treated as stubborn for expecting someone to be held accountable. Looking at their arguments it doesn’t seem like Suyin will budge or accept any sort of fault short of hurting someone. You can make a case that Lin should have gotten over it, but then that doesn’t really excuse anything Suyins done.
In the case of the one looking to be forgiven it’s usually the case that they’ll seek amends or try to make up for what they did to wrong that individual. Instead Suyin talks down to Lin expecting to have already been forgiven.
Suyin definitely has a different view of crime and punishment than Lin. That I don't think will ever change. It's the reason why she didn't become a cop and why she still hires and hangs out with criminals even after she went straight. So I'm sure she doesn't regret whatever crime she got caught doing.
I don't necessarily think Lin had to forgive Suyin or Toph, but it seems clear she wanted to. Her life was pretty much empty of any loving relationships. All 3 of them were too stubborn to actually talk to each other than past each other.
>She thinks Suyin is still the same brat as she was when she was a teenager,
Lin was right
I'm pretty sure the fascist dictator is worse. But yeah, she's a shit mom and the closest the show has to a neoliberal, so Bryke will insist she did nothing wrong.
Try again, without buzzwords this time.
WHAT A gay
The fascist dictator started off as someone trying to help out innocent villages that were starving and getting raided by roving bands of thugs. She went full fascist by the end, but she at least started out as caring about other people. Suyin never pulled that much off.
>defending a dictator
Yikes..
>Defending
Nope, Kuvira's a piece of shit that deserves to rot in prison at the very least. But at one point in her life she was a better person than Suyin ever managed to be.
democuck
Her opponents weren't democratic either. So really it's populist dictator vs colonial puppet vs ivory tower isolationism autocrat/mob boss
>Woman bought herself a city with crime money
Where was this mentioned? I figured she just played up her family name/natural charisma to get a following and went from there. Typing that out, she sounds more like a cult leader than anything else.[spoiler]
>Went "let them eat cake" when Kuvira told her that the rest of the Earth Kingdom was falling prey to warlords and roving bandits
Isolationism is a legitimate policy, especially if rationalize involvement in a crisis as dumping fuel onto the fire. That said, it would look a lot worse if Zaofu had deliberately turned away refugees fleeing the warlords or official envoys hoping to form an emergency government but we don't have any evidence of that.
>During a cease fire she tried to assassinate the woman she'd raised as like a daughter
Yeah, this was on her. But as this anon pointed out Kuvira already crossed a moral threshold by going from strongarm tactics to make peace to forced labor camps and ethnic cleansing.[/spoiler]
>very last sentence spoilers
I don't consider that canon as the only mention we see of it was from a rushed, low budget slideshow episode whose sole purpose was reinforce Kuvira was the arbitrary villain. Had that flaw of her character existed in any capacity in seasons S3 or S4 I'd buy it, but that's more of Bryke hastily screaming at the audience "See! She's the villain! (Unlike my libertarian power fantasy waifu Suyin and her super special awesome city state)
>I don't consider what the writer's, animator's & voice actor's developed to be canon even though I watched it with my own eyes.
Frickin cope. Just cause it's bad writing doesn't make it "not canon". Do you genuinely think anyone was happy with how they handled Amon? Nah, but that shit's there isn't it?
Writers often do the kind of switcheroo, like
>Look at this character doing X
>Viewer: X seems like a good idea
>Now the character does Y, which proves X is actually a bad idea
>Viewer: You just made them do Y because you have no argument against X
It's a very transparent attempt at ad hominem, but homie isn't even real, so it's even less convincing.
>Frickin cope. Just cause it's bad writing doesn't make it "not canon".
Nope. It's not canon. A character acting OOC at the last minute because the writer is shit isn't canon.
>Do you genuinely think anyone was happy with how they handled Amon?
lol
>Nah, but that shit's there isn't it?
Season 2 onwards aggressively pretends S1 didn't happen, specifically anything related to Amon or the equalists. The own show treats its prior seasons as non-canon the overwhelming majority of the time
>Isolationism
Zaofu isn't a different country. She bought some land (some of it might have been "family money" but she'd explicitly traveling the world and doing things like hanging out with pirates and thieves, so she almost certainly used dirty money in the purchase), and used her family name to entice a bunch of "talented benders" to live there. Thanks to the fact that they have magic powers that let them farm by doing a few martial arts stances, they were able to cut off all ties and act like they were a separate country, but they weren't. They were just rich buttholes that set up a gated community and stared out at everyone else, sipping wine while their neighbors were getting killed. And when one of them went "perhaps we should do something" she was ordered not to.
"Isolationism" might hold some goddamn weight if Suyin wasn't demanding to have a voice in how the Earth Kingdom should be handled. Zaofu was pretty much an independent city state in practice, with Suyin displaying open contempt for the monarchy
So the fact that she turns around and says it's suddenly bad when Kuvira bucks the system and installs herself as ruler of land she's acquired, it makes Suyin come off as the worst manner of hypocrite
That's not even getting into the hilarious way she instantly pardons her biological son but wants to throw the book at Kuvira despite both of them being willing participants in the Empire
She really was just the worst character in the Avatar universe. Kuvira went from "well meaning extremist" to "goddamn Nazi" in between episodes (probably because Bryke couldn't figure out how to write an antagonist that WAS just a well-intentioned extremist) but she got treated like a villain in the end. Suyin acted like a villain and was treated like a hero by the narrative. Just... frick. There were more glaring problems with Korra, but given that she wasn't in it very much, Suyin represented a high concentration of the worst writing in the show.
Remove the fricking Gundam and the villainbatting Kurvira's character suffered, and dial the season back to when Suyin and her family attempted to assassinate Kurvira after she offered them a peaceful solution. Republic City and the powers behind that puppet Prince Wu are still corrupt and still very much active Earth Empire and Korra's trust in Zaofu is fundamentally broken by then (not to mention being on an all time low). After that failed assassination attempt --- that was the point where some good, morally grey political stories could be told. You have 3 shitty factions without a clear good guy, and an Avatar whose at her lowest.
In a rewrite of season 4 I'd just have Korra either leave of her own accord or say "frick it" and side with Kuvira instead. That would at least be a bold choice
They just derailed her because they didn't have anything to actually pin on, compared to neocolonialists in Rep City. LOK was an idiotic show.
It is because one of the creators is a huge fan of Ayn Rand. And he wanted to make an OC of her.
I don't know that much about Ayn Rand, but I think at some point she was also endorsing not stealing other people's stuff. Beside fricking off into some secluded cult.
>I think at some point she was also endorsing not stealing other people's stuff
That's something I've always wondered about objectivism. How exactly is a society with no social institutions, like police or courts, supposed to not de-evolve into a rules-of-nature, battle royal where private property is determined by how many people you can beat up first?
It's basically the same problem as communism - it just assumes people would be different. It's not a bad personal ethos, if you actually follow through with it, but it can't build a society.
It also assumes everyone is going to play by the same rules. Which is insane because some power hungry jerk is going to frick off and create his own personal kingdom.
Who the frick is Ayn Rand? I've seen her name on this board all fricking day.
>Who the frick is Ayn Rand?
Nobody tell him. He's better off than any of us that know.
some shitty writer lolbertarians hold up as the pinnacle of political philosophy
Basically the patient zero for affluenza.
a woman, that's all you need to know about anything she has to say.
So Objectivism is a theory that puts front and center the pursue of personal achievement and is very popular with rich buttholes since it puts in a pedestal the idea the rich person as a paragon of virtue since they managed to become successful and stuff.
Ayn Rand was a popular author among this circle and wrote a book about how society was failing because mediocre people in power where putting restrain in successful people and forcing them to comply to the same rules of the rest of society, so all the rich and talented made their own secret city where they could thrive as artist and architects and businessman without any government intervention and everything would be control by the free market, etc.
Many people saw flaws in her rhetoric and made other fiction about how putting every self centered selfish butthole in a single city would fail eventually, but avatar doesn't seem to be such case since its the same idea of this isolated city with a bunch of successful artist, and entrepreneurs living in their platinum domes is painted as a good thing and the one who wanted to get out and help the poor masses was seen as the badguy.
Suyin needs to crash her car into someone's house.
>Suyin needs to crash her car into someone's house.
This is why Suyin will never get comeuppance even if there's ever more Korra. Can't go around saying bad things about the character voiced by a VA that died in a car accident.
Just quietly recast her. It wouldn't be the first time they've recast a character after the VA died. And it's not like all of the original side character VAs (for either TLA or LoK) will return with the new movies/series, so there'll probably be many other recasts to soften the blow. The Korra movie is still years away, plenty of time for people to give up caring about the character being recast.
>"let them eat cake"
I never understood how this was a bad thing
It displays a lack of awareness and the aristocracy's detachment from society.
I think its one of those things that she never actually said but gives the impression of her attitude.
>The people are starving and don't have enough bread.
>Let them eat cake.
>WELL SHIT b***h! WHY DINNA I THINK OF THAT?
>It displays a lack of awareness and the aristocracy's detachment from society.
I think its one of those things that she never actually said but gives the impression of her attitude.
Not really if people are lacking food and they have some spare cake to give them it's a perfectly good idea. Sounds more like they were just projecting their own insecurites.
>if people are lacking food and they have some spare cake to give them
She was not suggesting charity. She thought there was an untapped cake reserve. But again, its an apocryphal quote.
Also people shouldn't have to subsist on the castoff scraps from the wealthy.
>Also people shouldn't have to subsist on the castoff scraps from the wealthy.
People shouldn't have to die or struggle with our own self destructive natures. I sympathize with you, but that's a very idealistic sentiment.
>People shouldn't have to die
All organisms die.
>struggle with our own self destructive natures
I mean I've had rough patches but I wouldn't say "self destruction" is a core part of my personality.
My point is that complaining about that people shouldn't have to subsist off of the scraps of the wealthy is just as idealistic as the two points I made. Complaining about how things should be or shouldn't be without presenting a viable solution to such problems is a waste of time and energy. You may as well be complaining about how much it sucks that human beings need to subsist on water, oxygen, and food to not die.
But there ARE viable alternatives to living on the scraps of the rich. Mssr. Guillotine's designs are in the public domain.
That's not a solution. That's a momentary interim between hierarchies, which will inevitably reform as quickly as would be viable. You can't condemn the system we have currently if your solution to it is "Just kill everyone I don't like".
moron money doesn't equal food supply simply killing the rich won't give you that much food.
>She thought there was an untapped cake reserve
Yes so she thought there was surplus cake to be distrubtied I didn't say it had to be chairty
>Also people shouldn't have to subsist on the castoff scraps from the wealthy.
Beggars don't have the right to be choosers if you want food so bad you don't get to whine about it's source.
It's said by someone that knows the peasants won't be able to afford cake. It's just a sarcastic reply to show indifference to the suffering of people that weren't born into a rich family.
Turns out that indifference to the suffering of people that vastly outnumber you is not a good survival strategy.
She never actually said idiots it was just propganda by british instagators
Don't question the girlboss.
unironically jerked off at her porn art 8 hours ago
she is fricking hot
Extremely so
Don't know if I prefer her or Kuvira.
She's such a weird character
>We revealed Amon was a bender, therefore all of the Equalists will stop supporting him and all of the arguments/frustrations the Equalists voiced are illegitimate! We saved the day!
What did Bryke mean by this?
>"I got over me permanently scarring your face during a crime I committed, why can't you?"
What is the logic she was going for here?
Suyin was the one at fault for the whole shitshow that was Kuvira's rebellion. All Suyin had to do was to take control of a re-unification process, no one was asking her to turn into a Queen. Then she didnt even take measures to ensure that whoever unified the kingdom didnt turn into a tyrant. An assassination/kidnapping attempt is not a preventive measure, Suyin was stomping on a flaming bag of dogshit by then.
All that left me thinking: Kuvira really was the villain that season because no one else would. The story needed key characters to act moronic in order to have the finale it had.
Maybe if Toph didn’t cover up Suyin’s shit in the beginning Suyin might have learned something about consequences and then lin could realistically work things out when her sister is actually held accountable instead of endlessly enabled. I recall a scene where Lin is chewed out for criticising Toph and she’s treated as childish for thinking it was wrong.
Just teaches Suyin that you can get away with anything so long as you have enough influence. Hence why Suyin also pardons her son in season 4. Because she can get away with anything and forgiveness pardons accountability in avatar land.
I agree that the issues between Lin and Suyin were Toph's fault of not giving either of them direction.
It would be shitty of Toph to let Suyin run wild for 14 years and then throw her in jail having never taught her discipline.
Right, we learn that the father left and that Toph is almost never at home always working. Shortly after Toph leaves her job, goes into isolation leaving the family completely directionless
I can see the decision as one where Toph understands the failure as her own for neglecting children and setting Suyin up for a life of crime. Hence why Lin says Toph left out of shame but then Suyin refutes that saying Toph didn’t regret the decision.
So really that entire family is just a mess of bad writing. With Lin being the one stuck questioning what was the take away and if there is even anything to gain from rebuilding bridges the Toph, Suyin and her father never even build in the first place.
Toph grew constrained by her parents and as an adult basically left their daughters alone to do whatever they wanted. it makes sense what happened to both her daughters.
Imagine having suyin as your adoptive mom.
Only for her to drop you like a sack of shit.
Thx god for the gay avatar saving her.
She was still a better person then Kuvira.
Preemptive F for Anne Heche.