whats the first instance that led to Joker being inserted into everything?

whats the first instance that led to Joker being inserted into everything? Like was there a comic or movie where it became obvious that Jokerwank was becoming a thing? I want to say Mask of the Phantasm caused it

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  1. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    most of the problems with modern DC started with Injustice so probably that

  2. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    It was gradual. It's not like he was a C list character and than Mask came out and than become an iconic villain.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >It was gradual.

      This is the correct take.

      Yes, Joker was one of the few recurring villains from the Golden Age. But that's really not enough to classify as "Jokerwank". I also don't agree with OP for the reasons

      mask of the phantasm flopped. nobody watched that shit so that is not to blame and the movie isn't really a Joker movie. Much more of a Batman origins flick. I don't know what I'd say it is. because during BTAS, Joker was a main bad guy but he felt like another in the line-up. It wasn't until TNBA and Return of the Joker that Joker got established as THE greatest villain of Batman in the DCAU.

      said. Mask of the Phantasm is more well-liked now but it didn't do well in its theatrical release.

      "Jokerwank" would be the push to make him the biggest baddest villain getting away with a lot. My feeling is that it started gradually with having the Joker get away with killing Jason Todd and crippling Barbara Gordon, then killing Sarah Essen long after that. It's one thing to have him kill randos, it's another for him to affect people tied to Batman. The turning point was probably The Dark Knight (and Ledger winning that posthumous Oscar), though. I think that accelerated Jokerwank.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        >"Jokerwank" would be the push to make him the biggest baddest villain getting away with a lot.
        This started in the early 70s when they returned the Joker to his serial killer origins and gave him his own solo title, and was only held back by DC still obeying CCA rules on villains not being allowed to succeed. The moment that stopped, all gloves were off. So you can say it started in the 80s, but it was just building on the momentum already happening back in the 70s.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          70s is arguably where the roots of it started yes but I think that Joker back then was still bearable as a villain because he made infrequent appearances.

          This may surprise a lot of people, but from 1970-1979 Joker only showed up in
          7 issues of the Batman ongoing (not counting reprint stories)
          Only in the Englehart/Rogers run in Detective Comics
          5 issues of Brave and the Bold.
          A Joker ongoing series that only lasted 9 issues

          1980s you had more of Joker in DKR and Killing Joke and Death in the Family and Batman 1989 but even then editorial wanted Joker's appearances to be limited

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      This.

      Batman '89, you idiot.

      Before Phantasm was Tim Burton Batman. Before Tim Burton Batman there was The Killing Joke. Before The Killing Joke there was Superfriends. Before Superfriends there was Caesar Romero. Before Caesar Romero there was general comics.

  3. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Batman '89, you idiot.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      Batman 89 only borrowed from The Killing Joke. I wouldn't say the Joker was there for no reason.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        He was shown as the Waynes' killer for no reason

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          Because it was symbolic.
          >You murdered my parents. I made you. You made me first.
          He's looking the person who caused him years of pain dead in his fricking face. And he kills him. He doesnt frick around trying to prove a point. He takes Joker out.
          Also if I was going to do a mob movie with the Falcones and Maronis and all that it would make sense to connect it to Killing Joke's Red Hood origin.

  4. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Since Heath Ledger pretty much.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      This.
      I would say it's a combination of this and the Arkham games, especially City.
      >Ledger Joker is famous because love him or hate him Nolan is a very popular director
      >His untimely death at the time also added notoriety to the movie and the role.
      >City was practically all Joker outplaying everyone with the help of Clayface who calls pretending to be Joker 'The Role of a Lifetime'.
      Not to mention Batman's own rising popularity among more cynical normies flooding the hobby thanks to both of those and Batman being the more gritty and "realistic" hero (except you know, being a billionaire who actually wants to help people)

  5. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    He barely shows up, wdym?

  6. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    mask of the phantasm flopped. nobody watched that shit so that is not to blame and the movie isn't really a Joker movie. Much more of a Batman origins flick. I don't know what I'd say it is. because during BTAS, Joker was a main bad guy but he felt like another in the line-up. It wasn't until TNBA and Return of the Joker that Joker got established as THE greatest villain of Batman in the DCAU.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      because during BTAS, Joker was a main bad guy but he felt like another in the line-up
      The same can be said about Batman 66. I would say it was the Nolan movie that propelled Joker to his status now. However... between the Killing Joke and Death in a Family I would say thats even too much Joker. So many times the Joker has some new toxin that affects ALL the DC universe. There's no reason for him to be THAT involved in Batman's life. And then Burton making him the guy who killed Thomas and Martha? Years later his daughter dates Bruce's son. And now they want to imply he's related to Bruce? Its a bit much.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        Death in the Family isnt the problem. Under the Red Hood is.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          Death in the Family coming out right after Killing Joke, where Joker basically takes out the two bat allies, made his bones as Batman's biggest thread. Even in the Batman 500 Resurrection Night crossover, Joker givesway to R'as Al Ghul as Batman's main villain. A lot of Joker's kills before that were largely other criminals and old rich people.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            Its honestly shocking that it was Bane who broke Batman's back and not Joker. Seems any major events are connected to the clown.

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              Joker is "controlled chaos" and a criminal mastermind in that respect but he's pretty weak physically. Bane was supposed to be both a mental and physical challenge for Batman. Over time writers focused on the latter only.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            Joker is "controlled chaos" and a criminal mastermind in that respect but he's pretty weak physically. Bane was supposed to be both a mental and physical challenge for Batman. Over time writers focused on the latter only.

            That was pretty much Danny O'Neill trying to turn Batman into his thing, and why nobody followed up with any of that once he went away.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          But all he really did in that one was get beat up

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            You know just as well as I do that the moment batman chose to launch a batarng into the shoulder of his formerly dead friend and son insyead of letting that madman take a bullet, is the moment that established how homosexual Bats is for the Joker

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              Wasn’t it his throat or was that meant be conveyed as an accident, because his reaction didn’t really line up with it being unintentional? Quite grim.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      Someone bought up Under the Red Hood but even Mask of the Phatasm was an instance of Batman going
      >Nooooo dont kill the Joker!!
      Despite the fact that this Woman was so important that he damn near gave up being Batman for her. Twice.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >the movie isn't really a Joker movie
      Yet they felt the need to force Joker in under a flimsy pretense instead of letting Phantasm be the primary threat to be fought at the end.

  7. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Since the very beginning when he was Batman's first recurring villain and showed up in 9 of the first 12 Batman stories. He's always been Batman's main archnemesis. Even back in the 70s he was the first villain to get his own solo series.

  8. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    I'd say the point of no return was probably Last Laugh in 2001. Making Joker the baddest guy in Gotham is one thing, making him a DCU-wide threat took unprecedented levels of wank.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      I don't even know if that was it. I remember at least two instances where Joker went sane and the whole world lost its mind. And of course the infamous Lasso of Truth doesnt affect Joker and
      >Martian Manhunter don't read his MIND not HIM.
      scenes.

  9. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    >Why is the main villain of a character showing up all the time

    Man, what a good question. If anything, Jokerwank is not about him showing up all the time, 'cause that has always been the case.
    The problem is that to go along with Batwank, he just became this character who's capable of anything just because he's The Joker. And all that shit really started with Morrison's run because that wanker can only write one type of story so he forced Batman and all of the side characters into that template, and then Snyder followed suit and shit's too far gone by now.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >Man, what a good question. If anything, Jokerwank is not about him showing up all the time, 'cause that has always been the case.

      Not really. Like

      70s is arguably where the roots of it started yes but I think that Joker back then was still bearable as a villain because he made infrequent appearances.

      This may surprise a lot of people, but from 1970-1979 Joker only showed up in
      7 issues of the Batman ongoing (not counting reprint stories)
      Only in the Englehart/Rogers run in Detective Comics
      5 issues of Brave and the Bold.
      A Joker ongoing series that only lasted 9 issues

      1980s you had more of Joker in DKR and Killing Joke and Death in the Family and Batman 1989 but even then editorial wanted Joker's appearances to be limited

      said Joker appearances were rare during the 70s, people just remembered Laughing Fish and Joker's Five Way Revenge and assumed he was prominent in that decade.

      >And all that shit really started with Morrison's run

      No it did not. I was there during the 90s and 00s to see a lot of people already sick of Joker being wanked up before the Morrison Batman run started. Last Laugh as

      I'd say the point of no return was probably Last Laugh in 2001. Making Joker the baddest guy in Gotham is one thing, making him a DCU-wide threat took unprecedented levels of wank.

      pointed out as one example.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        >Joker appearances were rare during the 70s
        Joker was away during most of the shitty years of Batman comics where many of the Golden Age villains didn't really have much to do while he was having zany adventures and edging on cancellation. As soon as Batman went back to the "gritty" take, it didn't take long for him to come back and hold steady.
        He's been a staple of Batman comics for about 70 years of Batman's 85 year history. If anything, the question is what drove him away from the spotlight for a while.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          >If anything, the question is what drove him away from the spotlight for a while.
          The Comics Code Authority.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            I know, what I meant is that that is the anomaly, and not Joker being in the spotlight.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          Joker was also one of the few rogues with regular reappearances even in the 50's and 60's. A lot of them, like Riddler, only showed up like 2-5 times in the golden/silver ages.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            I would hazard a guess to the say the 70s/80s. Probably Killing Joke/DKR are the biggest cases, like a lot of people here have said. Going back to Batman '66, Joker is really just one of the villain crew. I would go as far to say that Riddler or Penguin were bigger villains in that, seeing as how the writers really enjoying writing to Meredith and Gorshin's strengths. Romero was a good actor, but his Joker really was kind of meh.

            The Riddler appeared about twice in the Golden Age, and then that was it for nearly 20 years until they randomly decided to bring him back in the mid 60s (pic related). The only real reason the Riddler ever became a notable Batman rogue is largely down to the '66 show and Frank Gorshin's performance, because the premiere episodes were an adaptation of that first Silver Age reappearance (largely because it was the first issue the producers pulled off the rack or something, IIRC).
            desu, I think anons here in general are underestimating just how crucial the '66 Batman was to canonising the core rogues gallery with Joker as the Clown Prince of Crime. Kids who watched that show at the time are the ones who grew up to be the driving comic creators of the 80s

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              I think anons here in general also forgot a lot of things that happened over the decades or their recent memory is only during the 00s onwards

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          >Joker was away during most of the shitty years of Batman comics

          No he wasn't.

          >If anything, the question is what drove him away from the spotlight for a while.
          The Comics Code Authority.

          >The Comics Code Authority.

          No. CCA was in place in 1954. Joker still showed up in Batman comics in the 50s and 60s. What the hell were you thinking? There wasn't even that big a gap between appearances between the 60s and 70s; his last 60s appearance was in 1969 and his first 70s appearance was in 1973 (Joker's Five Way Revenge). That's only four years

          Joker was still showing up in Batman comics during the 60s, after the CCA was in place
          Hell, he showed up in Batman and Detective in the 60s more than he did in the 70s. I'm pretty sure they stopped showing him actually kill people in the mid 40s so the Code would mean jackshit in this case.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          >If anything, the question is what drove him away from the spotlight for a while.
          Julius Schwartz didn't like him, and that's about it. The only reason why he appeared at all during Schwartz' tenure was because he was in the live action show.

  10. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    I'd say since 2008

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      Batman Arkham Asylum? But the comic had been out before that and Joker was an edgy overpowered character in that as well.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        >Why is the main villain of a character showing up all the time

        Man, what a good question. If anything, Jokerwank is not about him showing up all the time, 'cause that has always been the case.
        The problem is that to go along with Batwank, he just became this character who's capable of anything just because he's The Joker. And all that shit really started with Morrison's run because that wanker can only write one type of story so he forced Batman and all of the side characters into that template, and then Snyder followed suit and shit's too far gone by now.

        I wouldn't say the blame is on Morrison because the poor guy has very little versatility so that's all he could do with Batman. The problem is that all the subsequent writers went in that direction as well.

  11. 1 month ago
    Boco

    Nicholson started it.
    "Wait, we can do serious superhero moves now? And they'll work? Awesome!"
    Ledger winning an Oscar finished the job.
    "We can get legit awards now?!?!? Milk that shit!"

  12. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Batman #1 (1940)

  13. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    killing joke+death in the family pretty much cemented it. It pushed him over the top since those are 2 of the biggest character defining stories in the modern Batman mythos and pretty significant consequences. It just got gradually worse from there since Joker had to be powercreeped along with Batman

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      Power creep is stupid. At the end of the day no matter how powerful Batman gets, Joker is still a guy with bleached skin, a gun, laughing toxin, and a knife.
      How many villains could have taken Joker's place in Death in the Family. Killer Moth is meant to be Batman's rival in terms of his technology. Hugo Strange is meant to be peak physical strength and his skill in psychology make him a threat. Cornelius Stirk is a guy who could rival Victor Zsasz in terms of his death count.

  14. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Batman was wanked so it was natural to wank the joker to his same level.
    For some reason people believed Batman to be the ultimate example of morality, so a line was drawn "le no killing lol", and the Joker became someone to push him to the limit. Sometimes Batman killed sometimes he didn't, that was on the writter, but people got introduced to this idea of "pushed to the limit" through The Killing Joke.

  15. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Other than the movie, he really doesn't have much of a presence outside like one movie for now. As a casual, I never saw him more than just a crazy clown. And I never thought he was wanked.
    >Comics
    lol
    lmao even, no one cares about comicbooks nor should you take them seriously.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      Joker being SPECIAL is stupid as hell, but it is an extension of BatGOD. If Batman can be on the JL and carry his weight in cosmic-scale situations, then it becomes ridiculous that he can't take out a human chemist criminal with a bleached face.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        The problem is less to do with Batgod and more to do with making the villains multiple-time serial killers

        If they weren't then you could handwave Batman being over-prepared in JLA while sometimes struggling while dealing with criminals. Even before Batgod became a thing a lot of readers were already wondering when Joker would be put down (though usually not by Batman), in the 90s.

  16. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    It was TDK and Morrison. Morrison pushed Joker towards being more than a man. He pushed Joker into being something SPECIAL. After his run DC regulated Joker to event-level and that was that.

  17. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Don't understand how Joker got popular
    >can't physically fight
    >is literally just a guy

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      Joker became popular mostly because of his comic relief and showmanship factor. When written well, he's really entertaining and a blast to watch/read. The problem is that crappy writers over time focused more and more on the edge factor which takes all the fun out of the Joker's character. Sure it might be how the character was ORIGINALLY conceived but it's definitely not what made him iconic over time and people who want to "take Joker back to his roots" are idiots.

      People shit on 2004's The Batman but IMO it was one of the few forms of Batman media that REALLY understood what made Joker entertaining.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        I would go as far as to say that 2004 Batman's was the first time an animated joker was actually consistently funny even. BTAS Joker had those awkward first handful of episodes where his jokes just flat out aren't funny to anyone but himself, which I wonder might've been the point, but it takes a while for him to get "actually funny".

  18. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    >HE'S SO CRAZY HE DOESN'T EVEN KNOW HIS OWN ORIGIN STORY! See, he's RELATABLE! He's QUIRKY! He's SO CRAZY the LASSO OF TRUTH doesn't work on him! He's so unpredictable, even Darkseid's scared of him!
    Frick off, a toddler with a gun can take him out.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      The point of making up strawmen is not to end up looking even dumber than them

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        >strawmen
        Joker wank is real, and you're part of it.

  19. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    I still like the Joker from the DCAU days but DC doesn't know what it's doing anymore in general.

  20. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    it's a combination of things. as other anons said, it being gradual is probably the correct take

    > romero joker was popular for a generation of new fans
    > nicholson joker reset the clock
    > ledger joker did it again
    that's 3 live-action ones across multiple generations. 4 now with phoenix joker

    killing joke was so influential and up to that point THE "ultimate joker story" that every fricking writer tried to one up it. and led to extreme jokerization power exposure creep. every fricking writer, hack or master, even like morrison had to have THE INSANE JOKER STORY YOU DON'T WANT TO MISS

    at the same time, timm/dini joker becomes definitive for 2 different generations because hamill's portrayal is THAT good as well. so you have BTAS + Arkham Games carrying the torch as well for 30+ years. at the same time to that, you have DC/WB becoming overly reliant on batwank/exposure as a brand and him showing up in all sorts of new books, media, crossovers, etc, so who comes along for the ride? Why his #1 villain joker of course!

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      This is the main issue, too many writers wanting to one-up TKJ.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        How come no one succeeded? Moore phoned it in because it was a favor and not a passion project.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          Cause people want to one-up it for the wrong reasons

  21. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    It may not have started in late 2000s to early 2010s, but that specific time window certainly was a boost for Joker's popularity and increased wank as a consequence.
    You had The Dark Knight which was extremely well-received. You had Batman: Arkham Asylum and City both of which were extremely well-received. And in the comics you had Morrison's run.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      I'd argue Arkham City is where it starts. The game has Hugo Strange and Arkham City as its main story hook, with Joker in the side, only for the game to wrap that up early to turn the game into yet another Joker plot.

      It gets even more obvious in Arkham Origins and its shitty Joker plot twist.

  22. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    This is a factoid I love pulling out whenever this comes up.

    Of the first 12 issues of Batman since #1 where the Joker first appears, do you know how many he shows up in? 9

    Joker has always been used heavily and he will always be used heavily

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      Yeah but back then he wasn't the scariest supervillian that every other DC villain fears him.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        Joker shoots the head of the FBI, goes on a countrywide crime spree and gets sent to Alcatraz in his 5th appearance.

        He escapes Alcatraz in his 6th, of course.

        They give him the chair by the 8th, which he also survives.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          And you're saying Sinestro should fear him?

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            Nice try, posts are firmly still planted

            "Jokerwank" has been in the character since year 1 and acting like it suddenly happened is silly. The only thing that's ever changed is the scope, same as Batman as a whole

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              Answer the fricking question. When he caved someone's head in with a rock, several dozen meta humans (Cheetah, Giganta, Clayface, Captain Cold), all where scared of him. It doesn't make fricking sense for characters like Giganta to fear him. She regularly fights Wonder Woman, but Joker with a rock is 'TO SCARY'? Frick. Off.

  23. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    It's weird that, while everyone keeps bringing up Killing Joke and Death in the family, no one is bringing up DKR, which came out 2 years earlier and is just as influential. That entire book really places Joker as Batman's biggest antagonist and has the whole "Joker is actually in love with Batman" that writers tend to toy with a lot. I feel like the TAS Batman owes a whole lot to Miller's version.

  24. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Paul Dini thought Mask of the Phantasm was boring without Joker. He wanted Harley in it too but got shut down.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >Paul Dini is the optimistic of the bunch that gets fueled when Joker or Harley are involved.
      >Timm and anyone else is pesimistic about the whole thing, they hate their life and think about real life problems, like getting a house or getting the movie done in time
      >Producer guy is the middle ground between them, the voice of reason that brings balance into the table
      I would watch a sitcom about this shit. Just this team of weird guys trying to do a Batman show without dying or killing each other.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      All I remember from that comic was Dini getting ghosted by his hooker, him getting beaten up the same night he won an award and that the artist drew Arleen Sorkin with huge breasts.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      All I remember from that comic was Dini getting ghosted by his hooker, him getting beaten up the same night he won an award and that the artist drew Arleen Sorkin with huge breasts.

      What comic is this?

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        Dark Night: A True Batman Story
        Basically Paul Dini's recollection of his personal and professional life while working on Batman The Animated Series

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          Thank you

  25. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Batman's rising popularity + a steady stream of influential stories.

  26. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    If you want to really chart a timeline
    >Joker was to be a one-off who dies at the end of his first appearance, but someone suggested Batman needed a Moriarty, and another panel was added confirming he lived. This is Batman #1 (1940)
    >Joker makes frequent appearances throughout the 40s comics, often “dying” in the end only to come back
    >mid-late 40s, 50s, and 60s, Joker becomes lighter and sillier. During these decades, he was just one of many members of Batman’s rogues gallery. In 1951 he’s given his origin in The Man Behind The Red Hood
    >1977, Joker’s 5 Way Revenge makes him a more murderous, threatening character
    >1986, The Dark Knight Returns establishes Joker as being in love with Bruce and his primary antagonist above all other villains. It’s confirmed he killed Jason Todd. Batman’s commitment to no-killing is tested by the Joker being alive
    By now he’s fully transformed

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >1988, Alan Moore further explores themes of their relationship in The Killing Joke, gives Joker a possibly sympathetic backstory, presents Batman and Joker as locked in a futile never ending game. Same year, A Death In The Family canonizes the murder of Jason Todd
      >1989, Arkham Asylum: A Serious House On Serious Earth overtly shows Joker in love with Batman and again more powerful than any other criminal. Tim Burton’s movie shows Batman and Joker as bound by destiny, creating each other (this specific aspect wasn’t canonized in most other media, but it influenced their portrayals)
      >In the 90s, Mark Hamil’s Joker is a highlight of BTAS. More comic stories come out where Joker isn’t the main focus yet he still appears, like he’s a necessity for any and all Batman media. The movie Mask of the Phantasm is another example of this (it’s a good movie, but it could work without the Joker). Harley Quinn is created
      >Batman Beyond rarely shows any old rogues or even references them outside a couple episodes, (Bane was a short cameo of a broken body, Ras was the focus of one episode and he dies, and that’s about it) yet Jokerz gangs are a reliable presence, making Joker one of the only villains with an enduring legacy in that universe. Return of the Joker has Terry actually face a classic Batman enemy in his prime. Joker is again made a dark evil psychopath worse than any other criminal
      >2000s has the edgy Joker from Morrison’s run. 2008 gave us The Dark Knight with Heath Ledger
      >2010s, the Arkham Games, and Injustice. The Batman Who Laughs appears in 2017

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >1988, Alan Moore further explores themes of their relationship in The Killing Joke, gives Joker a possibly sympathetic backstory, presents Batman and Joker as locked in a futile never ending game. Same year, A Death In The Family canonizes the murder of Jason Todd
      >1989, Arkham Asylum: A Serious House On Serious Earth overtly shows Joker in love with Batman and again more powerful than any other criminal. Tim Burton’s movie shows Batman and Joker as bound by destiny, creating each other (this specific aspect wasn’t canonized in most other media, but it influenced their portrayals)
      >In the 90s, Mark Hamil’s Joker is a highlight of BTAS. More comic stories come out where Joker isn’t the main focus yet he still appears, like he’s a necessity for any and all Batman media. The movie Mask of the Phantasm is another example of this (it’s a good movie, but it could work without the Joker). Harley Quinn is created
      >Batman Beyond rarely shows any old rogues or even references them outside a couple episodes, (Bane was a short cameo of a broken body, Ras was the focus of one episode and he dies, and that’s about it) yet Jokerz gangs are a reliable presence, making Joker one of the only villains with an enduring legacy in that universe. Return of the Joker has Terry actually face a classic Batman enemy in his prime. Joker is again made a dark evil psychopath worse than any other criminal
      >2000s has the edgy Joker from Morrison’s run. 2008 gave us The Dark Knight with Heath Ledger
      >2010s, the Arkham Games, and Injustice. The Batman Who Laughs appears in 2017

      >mid-late 40s, 50s, and 60s, Joker becomes lighter and sillier. During these decades, he was just one of many members of Batman’s rogues gallery. In 1951 he’s given his origin in The Man Behind The Red Hood

      He wasn't just one of many members, he was also the one who appeared the most during the 40s and 50s. Basil Karlo/Clayface only appeared in two issues and didn't resurface again until 1989. Scarecrow only appeared twice in the Golden Age and didn't resurface again till 1967. Deadshot only appeared once and didn't appear again till the Steve Englehart/Marshal Rogers run in the 70s. And like

      [...]
      The Riddler appeared about twice in the Golden Age, and then that was it for nearly 20 years until they randomly decided to bring him back in the mid 60s (pic related). The only real reason the Riddler ever became a notable Batman rogue is largely down to the '66 show and Frank Gorshin's performance, because the premiere episodes were an adaptation of that first Silver Age reappearance (largely because it was the first issue the producers pulled off the rack or something, IIRC).
      desu, I think anons here in general are underestimating just how crucial the '66 Batman was to canonising the core rogues gallery with Joker as the Clown Prince of Crime. Kids who watched that show at the time are the ones who grew up to be the driving comic creators of the 80s

      pointed out Riddler only had two appearances in the Golden Age and didn't resurface until the mid 60s. I think only Catwoman and Penguin were also recurring yet still didn't have as many appearances as Joker.

      >1986, The Dark Knight Returns establishes Joker as being in love with Bruce and his primary antagonist above all other villains. It’s confirmed he killed Jason Todd. Batman’s commitment to no-killing is tested by the Joker being alive

      I think people also took inspiration from Joker's mass murdering in this book and in Batman 89 (I assume both were also taking inspiration from the early Joker stories where Joker killed lots of people, just as O'Neil and Englehart did), and that's when you see Joker's body count increase in the comics since DKR to even more ridiculous levels and forget a key part of what made those work was in DKR and Batman 89, Joker eventually dies.

  27. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    I would hazard a guess to the say the 70s/80s. Probably Killing Joke/DKR are the biggest cases, like a lot of people here have said. Going back to Batman '66, Joker is really just one of the villain crew. I would go as far to say that Riddler or Penguin were bigger villains in that, seeing as how the writers really enjoying writing to Meredith and Gorshin's strengths. Romero was a good actor, but his Joker really was kind of meh.

  28. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Batman the Animated Series doesn't wank the Joker. The Joker is always getting scammed or outwitted by other Gotham citizens like the comedy club, the mob, or some fat guy. Even in Mask of the Phantasm, he's just a mob guy or is called in to go after Andrea. Batman just doesn't care and has fun at his expense

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      BTAS Joker was relying on Mark Hamill's charisma to make him memorable rather than getting propped up as this super-mega-scary villain modern DC wants him to be.
      He had his threatening moments, sure, but it was never reaching the point of "Batman is a moron for not killing this pasty-faced homosexual" kind of frustration.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      BTAS Joker was relying on Mark Hamill's charisma to make him memorable rather than getting propped up as this super-mega-scary villain modern DC wants him to be.
      He had his threatening moments, sure, but it was never reaching the point of "Batman is a moron for not killing this pasty-faced homosexual" kind of frustration.

      I wish that was how Joker is in the comics, he's more fun that way.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      I really wish they'd bring back the Sparrow as a rival for the Joker. She was a one-shot character but it was kind of hilarious how she is legitimately interested in him (and not in the Harley Quinn way but more of a "you should work for me and be my pet" dominatrix way) and invites him to partner up while Joker is scared shitless of her.

  29. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    after Killing Joke and Dark Knight returns, after that every two bit writer wanted to be known for a definitive Joker story

  30. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Dark Knight and Killing Joke being evergreens.
    Joker merchandise selling like crazy in 89.

  31. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    I can only name like, two other villains who see Joker for what he is. Just some moron who thinks he's a clown. And they're Lex and Pamela. Lex just humors him and let's him hang out, Ivy would kill him if given the chance.

  32. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Mask of the Phantasm is overrated.

    Still good, mind you

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      it was never good. It has one scene going for it
      >i didnt count on being happy
      But aside from thaf its generally agreed its a boring movie

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        That is not “generally agreed.” You may think that, but it’s not common consensus

  33. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Batman ‘89

  34. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    I just feel like Joker was meant to be like a Dick Tracy type of villain. Like Clayface or Crazy Quilt. Snake Eyes or Eraser head. A gangster who happens to look like a clown. But somehow he's become the dude who all other criminals are afraid of. Gotham's boogieman. Can you imagine the what would happen the day DC puts this guy in the ground for any period of time? Like Barry Allen was gone and a whole generation grew up only knowing Wally West as the Flash. It'll never happen but I think Joker should end up that way.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      I miss crazy quilt…

  35. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    badman

  36. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    I think The Killing Joke might have started the Joker craze that's been going on ever since, and his subsequent insertion into a lot of things.

  37. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    I don't get what the frick people are whining about when they ramble on about this. It's like complaining Batman drives the batmobile or throws boomerangs. Annoying fricking hipsters need to stop pretending to like Batman.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      As people have said he’s always had a fairly high level of popularity, even before Jack Nicholson you had Cesar Romero’s Joker, but in the 80s he got several high profile stories in the 80s along with the aforementioned Tim Burton movie. But I think what also really helped him along was the addition of Harley. She became a runaway success in her own right and that elevated his status even further.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        I didn’t mean to reply to that post, my b

  38. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    The very start? Bill Finger wanted Joker to die, after the first story.

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