Who are some irredeemable villains that the heroes would get a free pass if they decided to kill them?
Who are some irredeemable villains that the heroes would get a free pass if they decided to kill them?
Who are some irredeemable villains that the heroes would get a free pass if they decided to kill them?
Not Joker
Everyone thought Batman killed Joker after he dissapeared in Faces of Death, and all of Gotham tried tearing Bruce limb from limb in the streets for this sin.
And rightfully so, The Joker is innocent. Why should he apologise for being a monster when society never apologised for turning him into one?
What? Shouldn't they be actually cheering Batman even if they thought he killed Joker?
Joker is a charismatic person, far more than any real serial killer, its natural to an extent people would not want him dead. That and he's also a crime lord which means he probably inadvertily gives gothamites jobs.
I really doubt there's a shortage of organized crime/henchmen positions in Gotham of all places.
That's moronic. Most serial killer fangirls are only that way because they're not in any direct danger from the source of their "affection".
Joker kills hundreds every time he escapes, no amount of charisma's gonna work when this guy is a fricking lottery where you and your loved ones' lives are on the line.
He's more of a cult-ish leader than serial killer, and at the time they tought he was dead so romanticising him like that isnt the most out-there thing.
His reputation for bringing death on a wide scale would make it almost totally implausible for police not to instantly take lethal action against him.
Do it Batman! Rape those Jokers! Give them t he rape that you could had never given the Joker!
this meme was never funny
All these people actually protesting the fricking Joker being killed seems like a reach, even for comics. It's like protesting Ted Bundy being killed.
Pfffahahahhahaha
The person who kills joker is getting a bronze statue erected of him in every neighbourhood of Gotham. Joker's body count is so high that every citizen in the damn city knows someone who's died specifically to Joker violence. Or at least they know someone who knows. You're not getting more than 2 people away from a direct victim of Joker violence no matter which direction you go.
And yet he's portrayed as having a massive legion of goons.
You'd imagine that "regularly fricks over his employees" would travel through the grapevine and he'd have no thugs working for him. It's not like any of his crimes are even profitable.
He has a killer dental plan.
Only because Batman would make an attempt on your life if you tried or succeeded
How the US government hasn't stepped in and sent a kill squad to just end him after the amount of people he's killed and property damage he causes beggars belief.
Then you have the fact he has most likely crossed every single other inmate in Gotham at least twice and they collectively didn't decide he's too much of a wild card loose canon backstabber to just gang up and kill him themselves, with how shitty Arkham's security is it's not even like that would be a challenge.
His plot armor is some of the thickest in fiction.
you don't even need a kill squad, just shoot him in his cell at Arkham next time Batman brings him in.
The reason Joker is never gonna get killed is because Batman is protecting him
Universal threats like Darside or Thanos "die" all the time.
That's Flash, isn't?
Wasnt he a soldier and later didn't Agent Venom kill a bunch of terrorists?
And wasn't Cassidy in Death Row already once or twice?
soldiers don't kill people silly
Flash used rubber bullets in Afghanistan. Rather ineffective if you think about it. Hence why Flash had his legs blown off.
It's the fundamental left-wing authoritarianism of superhero comics. Here you have a soldier who's seen combat, killed enemy soldiers, saying "Heroes don't kill!". Carnage is far worse than any enemy soldier, yet Flash says it would be morally impermissible to kill him.
Only the state has the right to kill, and soldiers are an extension of the state. Superheroes are vigilantes who lack that authority. They're not even cops, just concerned, anonymous citizens. Citizens do not have the right to self-defense in the Marvel Universe. Only the state and its sanctioned actors are allowed to defend themselves from harm. The vigilante "super hero" operates as an excuse for a stagnant, bloated government to not only shirk their duty, but to put their boot on the neck of the citizens whenever they want, saying "Well these gosh darned superheroes are out of control!".
Man I usually have to go to a farm to find this much horse shit
Uh-huh, what do you think the Civil War event was? Or any other similar event? When those in power want to tighten their control, they put the boots to super heroes. They don't ask what the government could be doing to stop actual crime, they don't arrest violent criminals. They enlist those criminals to hunt heroes! This authoritarian nightmare is endemic on Marvel's Earth. Spider-Man randomly attacks criminals but he's not working in a soup kitchen. He's not trying to find ex-cons honest work. There is no rehabilitative justice in the Marvel U because their government is completely unaccountable. Public transportation sucks? Blame Galactus! War Veterans living on the street? Sorry but the Masters of Evil are attacking central park!
This is a world where it's considered not only normal, but patriotic for corporations to build giant death robots to hunt down the ugly and deformed while the government turns a blind eye.
The ugly and deformed are currently organizing an universal coup.
To be fair, Peter Parker can barely find and keep his own jobs, let alone be a proper reference on a resume for someone applying to anywhere, even his own former company. And I'd send the soup back if there was a spider in it.
I can agree.
Fine, don't have your heroic characters kill the murderous super powered child killers.
But don't turn that into a moral soap box moment.
Write it so the authorities are there to make the arrest and stop the hero from doing it or something.
>what makes us different
Its retaliatory and it is a punishment for killers and stops their killing. Its not indiscriminate murder
>It's the fundamental left-wing authoritarianism of superhero comics.
>Only the state has the right to kill, and soldiers are an extension of the state. Superheroes are vigilantes who lack that authority. They're not even cops, just concerned, anonymous citizens. Citizens do not have the right to self-defense in the Marvel Universe. Only the state and its sanctioned actors are allowed to defend themselves from harm. The vigilante "super hero" operates as an excuse for a stagnant, bloated government to not only shirk their duty, but to put their boot on the neck of the citizens whenever they want, saying "Well these gosh darned superheroes are out of control!".
You are 100% correct. Nicely put anon .
>Wasnt he a soldier and later didn't Agent Venom kill a bunch of terrorists?
Yeah, that's probably WHY he doesn't want to kill anymore. Why is the idea of a guy with a body count trying to actively change such a foreign idea to you? If you wanted a ruthless soldier set in his ways then just read Punisher.
Meds.
>M-m-meds!
Your surrender is noted.
Flash is a terrible character to use for that since he snaps a guys neck in his first issue, then he joins the Thunderbolts.
you don't get it, that guy was most likely a muslim, far worst than any mass murderer could be by default
As vigilante he'd be operating outside the law vs. killing for Uncle Sam. So leaving bodies all over the streets is going to draw attention fast.
What the frick are you even talking about? Are you mentally ill?
It all boils down to "We can't kill anynoe for real because we need to keep printing more books about them".
It's not endemic to Marvel, it's not some sort of totalitarian dystopia, it's not a political statement, it's just that entire universe has to warp and bend and move goalposts and retcon itself to justify every moderately popular character being alive. Especially villians.
How old are you that you do not understand this?
The no kill rule was created in response to the moral panic that almost killed the comics industry. Villains die all the time so the "no kill rule" doesn't even save them.
I hope Remender didn't write this cause I feel like he's a better writer than that.
The crossover with Scarlet Spider was during Bunn's run IIRC
I guess Flash only likes killing asiatic women and children
this. Flash participated in two wars. I guess it's okay to kill when people you kill are foreigners
IIRC in Remender's run some villain (not even sure if some obscure character or an OC created for the run specifically, guy was generic as frick that's for sure) was driving a tank-like vehicle recklessly and killed a lot of people in the process for which FlashVenom bit his head off.
Flash should really be the last fricker to pull the "heroes don't kill" card. Especially with Carnage.
Did they ever write flash being in the first gulf war? I remember him being a Vietnam vet but once they got to the late 80s they never really talked about his military service until Slott came around frankly
It was in the aftermath of spider island iirc
> What separates us
HE KILLS INNOCENT PEOPLE YOU STUPID moronic FRICK. WE KILL TO PROTECT PEOPLE.
yeah, I'm open to arguments about whether or not killing the guy is right or wrong, but that reason is so blatantly stupid I can't believe anyone would believe it.
Fricking this.
>> What separates us
Exactly, it's grade A moronic. Like if a cop was there and shot him, would Flash have still given that spiel?
Consider how some people in real life advocate for criminal rights and give countless excuses for them as society deteriorate around them. They would totally blame a hero for killing an irredeemable villain.
I guess. It's just so pointless to have superheroes have these nonsensical debates while existing in the same universe as normal cops and criminals who supposedly regularly get killed in shoot outs.
red spiderguy is completely right, writers can't give a good reason why he is wrong
Well yeah, those writers are authoritarians that believe the state should have such a monopoly on violence that the very act of defending yourself from a murderer should be criminal. Anything to avoid having personal responsibility themselves.
Anyone find it weird that these same heroes hate others, especially other heroes, for killing villains but they admire Cap, a WW2 veteran, who has admitted that he killed Nazis and isn't at all apologetic about it?
I mean, which one is it? Either killing is wrong, no matter the circumstances. Or IRL soldiers of the Allied Forces shouldn't be called "heroes" and instead be condemned for their war crimes?
I'm trying to be some one edgy contrarian, I just want some consistency where all the superheroes treat Captain America and his generation as the unapologetic killers that they are.
Carnage has killed children, Flash.
Part of why I hate Carnage is that he just doesn’t make any sense. He’s Joker on steroids. He’s one of the hardest-to-kill, strongest, most durable, most dangerous street level villains, and he has zero motivation besides killing people. So whenever a hero gets mad that someone kills or maims him in order to prevent more killings, it just makes them look utterly useless and stupid.
Goblin? You could argue it, since we’ve seen non-Goblin Norman be chill and docile up until the IT WAS ME era, so we know he can be helped. Ock? Master criminal, but typically he isn’t just murdering left and right. Mac? At his worst he tends to just focus on his own goals, though casualties are possible, but he’s also tried to go straight before.
But Carnage is just stupid.
Oh hey, found it.
Is that run worth a read?
It's pretty good actually unless you're a hardcore Eddiegay who seethes at the idea of anyone who's not Eddie being Venom.
Or if you're a Toxingay. I'm actually gonna take points from this run for what was done to Toxin.
But otherwise, yeah. Flash is a very likable character with some cool development and nu-Jack O'Lantern is a fun villain.
The Remirder run is one of the best things that's happened to both characters and features some of the best character development. Theres a reason that hack Cates kept teasing Flash a frick ton during his run
It’s alright but I honestly think it ruined flash, he went from being an important character in peters life to like the 7th symbiot in use
damn thats pretty awesome that he reverts to classic venom when he hulks out
Goddamn it, I'm moronic.
Started with the last saved pic.
Okay, read it backwards, kek.
I haven’t read the run, but I actually really like how this emphasizes that despite the colorful outfits, villains are scumbags.
Is that melter?
Wiki says it's this guy.
https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Howard_Mitchell_(Earth-616)
>exists since 60s
>11 appearances
Not exactly a character that took off, huh?
The Hijacker was an Ant-Man villain who was one of the many obscure Marvel villains killed off in the Scourge of the Underworld storyline in the 80s. Whirlwind, Egghead, Porcupine and the villain version of Black Knight were the only Ant-Man villains who really made many appearances elsewhere, the Hijacker just showed up in a couple of Marvel Two-in-One stories.
Remender's Punisher run during Dark Reign had the Hood resurrect a lot of the Scourge victims, including the Hijacker, but between his runs on Punisher and Venom, he made sure most of them ended up getting killed again. The Hijacker suddenly being a guy who kills civilians was just Remender being an edgelord and doing something to give Flash reason to kill the guy.
This story came after Flash took a swig of Peter's "no one dies" juice in Carnage USA.
>This story came after Flash took a swig of Peter's "no one dies" juice in Carnage USA.
Peter's "no one dies" juice was something shat out literally that year by Slott.
Joker, carnage, Harley Quinn, Doctor doom, John Ridley, Tom Taylor, Brian Bendis, oh wait do we mean fictional?
Emma frost before the retcons
which retcons? And what's Frost done in the first place to warrant death?
>And what's Frost done in the first place to warrant death?
Having a veganac**t.
finance Sentinels and abuse kids using the hellions as her soldiers. She went from giving no fricks about other mutants, and traumatizing firestar; to being the most vocal about mutants problems and suddenly caring about mutants kids more than anyone else. All because she was the sexiest person in the Hellfire club.
>and traumatizing firestar
She was literally traumatizing Firestar to make her strong enough to survive a suicide mission Shaw was sending her on. Shaw called her out on that bullshit in that fricking run.
Emma had a twisted sense of the world, but holding that bullshit against her as if she wasn't trying to save a life with it isn't fair.
Reminder that before Marvel had her change sides, Emma was responsible for having Hellfire Club soldiers wipe out Warpath's tribe, as punishment for him leaving the Hellions. After Generation X had started, one of Fabian Nicieza's last issues of X-Force had to awkwardly retcon it with Emma denying having anything to do with it, and it was later pinned on another villain (IIRC it was Stryfe) killing them for no reason and framing her for no reason.
Every fricking time, theres always some homosexual that brings up Emma then some other homosexual runs in to defend her and it's always the same shit
>Muh Firestar's horse
>Muh Generation X
>Muh Sentinels
It's almost like trying to turn a villain like that into a heroine was a really moronic move, isn't it? And it wasn't even the first time the X-Men books tried that with a villain who should have stayed a villain.
It's more like you fricks have the same goddamn conversation about Emma Fricking Frost anytime you have a fricking chance
>Emma Fricking Frost
Even if anyone can prove otherwise, I'm accepting that as her canon middle name from now on.
Why didn't Batman go crazy murderous psycho when he killed Darkseid?
Because Darkseid didn't really die, and he's not as important to Bruce's life as Joker is.
None. Marvel heroes are psychopaths.
Thanks for reminding me of this shit show.
I hate it.
Jenkins was pissed as frick with how Bendis treated his child OC and just decided to give Marvel one last frick you with that shitty story, wasn't he?
I wouldn’t blame him, cranking the Sentry up to 11 by making everyone fellate him at the expense of dead children is poetic, considering how hard Bendis botched him. Why did Bendis do that anyway? Take two genuinely interesting characters, Sentry and the Hood, then completely shit on them?
The Hood deserves to be shat on. Everyone ends up wildly out of characterly evil when working with him no matter who the frick it is.
Frick that character. I hope they never bring his boring ass back.
Wait, how did that make Sentry right
It honestly reads like parody. Straight out of Muh Phoenix or something, “oh yeah and then he killed the kids anyway”.
yeah it's like they forgot a panel explaining WHY thing thinks he's right
I mean... doesn't it mean The Thing was right? He should have killed that guy, he would have saved kids lives
You guys are missing the point. The Thing is saying Sentry was right in an absolute sense, not because of what followed. Whether or not the kids got killed, he would have been right because heroes don't kill.
His entire fricking point is he let the lives of children blind him to the bigger picture, upholding law and order. He outright says he's not mad about the bus.
Learn to fricking read.
But, in the comics, the government cannot uphold law and order either.
If they could, then that busload of kids would still be alive, but they're ineffectual.
Shit happens. Also
>in the comics
I was actively trying to avoid bringing real life into the discussion.
Uh, no, he would have been right to kill him because he would have saved a bus of kids who were killed later due to his inaction
>Uh, no, he would have been right to kill him
>Already restrained
No. The bus of kids he would later kill weren't in imminent danger. Anyway, you're making a flawed legal argument.
Thing's making a moral one. Heroes don't kill. Even if they would have a legal right to or even if it would save lives.
>Thing's making a moral one
A terrible one that results in far more suffering and damage because of cowardice or submission. It is morally right to destroy evil until it is incapable of acting.
Batman doesn't even hero to uphold morals. He heroes to hurt bad people and make them suffer and feel defeat. He can't do that if they're dead.
Also I wish I still had the page where he admits that. All I remember is it involved him dragging a disabled Joker through the snow.
what an idiot the thing was, he almost saved a whole bunch of children at the cost of one superpowered murderer. How morally repugnant would that have been.
Fortunately he, and the rest of the Marvel hero community, saw the error of his ways and how sagacious the great Sentry was.
Purple Man
Mandrill
Red Skull
All three are the most universally reviled villains in their world, though Mandrill is a SMIDGE more tolerated. No one, not even other villains, tolerate them.
Mandrill? Really?
Mad Thinker at least was willing to make him part of their breakout. But I can't think of anyone outside of the MODOK show that actively LIKES Mandrill.
Nekra, I guess.
>Red Skull
I'd agree, except the AXIS event started off with Magneto killing him, and everyone acting like he was a monster for doing so. The narrative took that route too, since killing him is what turned him into Red Onslaught. If he's been arrested and imprisoned, then it would've been avoided.
Keep in mind they were standing in a mutant concentration camp Skull was running, surrounded by literal piles of corpses of his victims. They were still moralgayging over how bad it would be to kill him.
I think this example does play into the moronic logic Batman uses about how if he kills one villain he'd never stop, because in this case it's Magneto. If he starts killing people again he probably is going to end up on another murderous rampage that's worse than the villain he was angry about in the first place.
Thing for me is that the arugment of killing a villain to make sure they dont kill again only really makes sense in a setting where death sticks, and that's just not the MU or the DCU,. So killing someone is fundamentally no different than putting them in jail, they'll be back soon enough, or a copycat will take their place for a while.
"What separates us, then? What makes us different from him?"
Seriously? The fact that you aren't killing random people, but instead sociopathic mass-murderers who prey on random people?
This is always an incredibly stupid and tone-deaf take.
Well Kaine HAS killed innocent people, for whatever that's worth.
It's also amazing that the Marvel government will sanction building 30' death-bots to chase down mutant schoolkids who can turn into wolves, but not sic them on Carnage?
Well Carnage has died, a few times, it just never sticks.
Nigh-unkillable serial killer villains are an even better argument for lethal protection from heroes.
That's the thing, venom kills carnage, and hten a week later he's back exactly the same as if he was put in prison.
The solution is to have Venom call up Thor or Strange, beam Carnage into the core of the sun.
He will be out of commission until a sufficiently hack writer bullshits him out of that (looking at you, Cates).
Sentry ripped him in half and he went trough re-entry, still came back.
In a world where death is temporary the killing debate is meaningless, the most the heroes can do is try and prevent innocent people from dying too, since they never come back.
If heroes and villains know that they are in a comic book and exist only for audience entertainment then the heroes and villains are technically the only real beings in their comic book universe. The antics they get into and the sales they produce are what drives sales, popularity among readers, and this the "life" of the comic they are in. Villains killing random people literally doesn't matter. The civilians are non-entities. The only moral question is if killing a villain or hero will hurt sales or not. So all of the heroes and all of the villains basically are the only real people in their universe and they are aware of this fact.
They don't kill each other out of professional
I meant more in the sense that villains and heroes coming back is something they know of in universe, hence killing one not really mattering compared to the civvies.
There's only one Carnage, there's no Brotherhood of Evil Carnages declaring war on the human race and attempting to kill or enslave everyone. One Carnage is manageable by the superhero community, even if they're incapable of permanently killing him.
Its like the US government going after the supposedly "white nationalist" multiethnic proud boys while ignoring ngos from around the world funding riots all over the US.
Its fricking moronic
Rioters weren't paid to riot, tinfoil.
Funding riots != paid you dishonest frick, you know that.
For the vast majority its the pallets if bricks droped off at significant places and Uhauls of signs and other protesr equipment paid for.
That being said there is a relatively very small amount of professional organizers who are paid.
>Funding riots != paid you dishonest frick, you know that.
Actually, no, that's actually what I thought you meant.
>For the vast majority its the pallets if bricks droped off at significant places
Damn, you crazy.
>Damn, you crazy.
Have you really not seen it? If your being honest about your other post look it up. During the floyde riots bricks were dropped off in local significant areas in cities across the US.
There are videos of the premade signs being unloaded from uhauls and being handed out and removed.
It all sounds like skitzo nonsense until you see it for yourself
>Have you really not seen it?
Have you considered telling a mental health professional about this?
Are the pallets of bricks in the room with you right now?
Bricks don't break windows. People break windows.
Or something, honestly you seem miserable enough, just think of something that pisses you off for me.
Carnage is living proof that Spider-gay and his Amazing Clones are all pussies
>He says while posting the biggest pussy of them all
Joker, Carnage, Apocalypse, Sinister, Dark Beast, Major Force, Doctor Light, Poison Ivy, Darkseid
The stupidest thing about that page is Flash did this and the only reason Cletus's brains ddin't decorate the ground was Spider-Man being right there and Flash hesitating in front of his hero.
no villain stays dead, even D listers will be come back without explanation because a writer didn't read the issue they died in.
At least these days it can be explained by Hobgoblin looting their still-warm body and selling the costume and name to a rando off the street.
You don't get free passes for irredeemable villains. You get free passes for existential threats.
Cleetus had a brief face turn, not irredeemable.
He was literally temporarily magicked into a new alignment. It had frick all to do with him as a person. And he was still a violent psychopath even then.
All of these things are true, yes.
Wasn't that only because of some magical morality swap bullshit? If your only chance to not be a mass murderer is literal magic you still deserve the chair.
but to be fair, while he was magic swap all of his sins were absorbed by a another guy
We all agree that IDW turtles are loser dogs.
Any reason that isn't "because we want to help set a good example to children" is honestly fricking moronic. Because the children are the reason the "no kill" rule exist in the first place.
This is something that I take issue with. Children need to learn about death. It's an unfortunate and fearsome reality but they need to understand it so that they can develop into competent and emotionally well adjusted adults.
Believing that there is always a "ultimate savior" who swoops in at the last minute to rescue you, or that there is some unwritten rule that nobody dies unless they "deserve it" only stunts children intellectually and makes them grow up naive to the reality of the world.
>What separates us, then?
"We don't kill"?
I mean, he got lobotomized, innit.
And which one of super-assassin symbiote combat-hardened super-soldiers was it? I got a little lost.