This is in response to that other thread.
American animation tends to have subpar cinematography because it took from two sources: stage plays and vaudeville. Stage plays are where the "sitcom ¾" style comes from and is why American character designs prioritize having identifiable silhouettes over anime ones. Vaudeville films like the Three Stages didn't focus on staging but the actors. This is what American animation does, as it focuses more on character acting.
This is not unique to television animation. Golden Age cartoons and Disney films tend to have flat staging. (https://twitter.com/aalong64/status/1509246354698080257).
On the other hand, anime takes after cinema. As a result, it deprioritizes character acting and instead focuses on cinematography, so it looks like a 3D space rather than a flat space with an imaginary line. I don't think this is bad, as I prioritize how a scene "looks'' rather than if there's animation, but tastes vary. Additionally, character acting is not antithetical to cinematography. At times (ignoring cliche tendencies), anime can have better character acting than American animation. I prefer the look of anime, but like American animation, most of it is shit.
To put it simply, imagine if every anime was shot like Spongebob. That's the situation in the US.
im not reading all that shit nobody cares Black person
Wow finally a good thread. Also Three Stooges, not Three Stages, your auto correct is acting up.
I personally between the two good things prefer the characters acting, emoting and being able to see the set design. At the same time it is moronic how in 2022 they refuse to add basic lighting, shadows, textures, etc. refuse dynamic camera shots, thus everything looks flat, when a simple camera switch and some filters can improve the graphics ten fold.
Cinema despite most being live action does not utilize body language properly and often lacks good choreography and easy to understand movement. Harry Potter 3 and Alien 3 have great cinematography but horrid combat, body language, creativity, sometimes it even seeps into non-character scenes and the cameraman/director doesn't know how to make scenes interesting without a character talking over it and staring the audience in the face as the actor goes through 7 different expressions.
Crappy shows like South Park where there isn't much movement to begin with could prioritize cinematography.
Anime is still far more shallow just like French cartoons. They lack the creativity in body language, they tell rather than show just like cheap live action. It's 90% dialogue and 10% action.
I care so you can go SUCK A DICK Black person. Filthy Black folk. Get some culture or frick off, you've become worse than the Youtube comments section.
I will never get over how angry you get over brown people but then are worship anime, which is made by brown people
Japs are yellow
Grow up and get a life.
>Wow finally a good thread.
It sure is OP
Why, of all movies, would you single out Harry Potter 3 and Alien 3?
That's actually really interesting and something I hadn't had the time to consider, but it makes perfect sense.
I did.
japanese animation prioritizes style
american animation prioritizes substance
>substance
Kek. Like what? Nihilism and cynicism?
I have to agree, When I think of anime fight scenes I think anime fight scenes I think DBZ bullshit, (Guy moved so fast you couldn't see, Guy slashed and the entire mountain got cut, energy blast leveling a city block) With weightier, more realistic action being the exception. Western has the opposite with grittier but more subdued action.
In a western animation a guy getting his head exploded is brutal, gory, has some buildup and is given attention for about a second and makes you react irl. It also makes you wonder why the author is being so edgy.
In a Shonen anime the same scenario is completely bland. no buildup, It has no weight or impact, no meaning. it reminds you of tomato sauce. It's flashy but so is everything else, so it comes back around to being nothing. you will forget it completely within 15 seconds as the character kills 100 mooks a minute. It's like they inflated the value of violence. Hence no substance.
I can agree there. The biggest problem with shounen is it's insistence to constantly ramp up the power to stay interesting. Past a certain point it stops having any substance or feeling like anything. Dragonball Z is an apt example because when Dragonball (referring to the series as a whole) wants to do more down to earth fights it can feel really good. At its core it's just Wusha and Martial arts being exaggerated. I couldn't care less seeing a guy fire a fireball out of their hands that blows up an island or something (outside of the narrative reasons that might be scary) but I'm very invested seeing two guys duking it out in well choreographed close combat. And I'm not talking those random punch/kick flurries the anime likes to do to show characters are "fighting"
>The biggest problem with shounen is it's insistence to constantly ramp up the power to stay interesting
Naruto is something that always comes to mind that really had this problem, they get better with it and started going back to more martial arts fights mixed with the magic attacks later on. The sequel series has been great with that.
Anime action direction varies from genre to genre, Most of what you're describing is really only found in modern battle shounen and modern isekai.
There are other shounen anime where the action is much more restrained like FMA, early Naruto, or Attack on Titan
But if you were to look at other genres like sci-fi anime you can find stuff like GitS or Psycho-Pass and you'll see they use a different style there.
Mecha anime is another example that also can have a ton of variance in how their action is directed.
Also what western animation are you referring to? Because I can't recall a single show that was that visceral, most of them aren't even allowed to show punches as far as I'm aware.
Not him but it sounds like invincible
PRIMAL has some examples of this
This seems like a great example of what
said
>completely bland. no buildup, It has no weight or impact, no meaning. it reminds you of tomato sauce.
Western animation can do a lot of good but this is just not.
Its actually the end of the battle cropped out to look like that.
It goes for longer and is actually building up to it when the main guy tries to get to that monkey.
What
said. You're making a rather hasty judgement based on a single webm
>08th MS team Shiro vs. gouf
The running part is ludicrous.
It's funny I was also thinking of naruto with that. Mainly how, to this day, I think Sasuke's Lion Barrage is the coolest thing he did. Cooler than shooting a fireball or the chidori or god forbid any of the bullshit he can do in Part 2. Shows his ability to copy moves pretty well while also showing his ability to improvise. And the whole thing is driven a constant rotating momentum. It's just a punch-kick- combo but it honestly feels way cooler than the unquenchable black flames or his giant ancient samurai stand he can summon.
This is shit.
>I have decided I don't like something, I so don't like; reasons come back later.
Otherwise, have you ever read a comic/manga, and I mean western comic, in your life? The pages flow amazingly well and the action alone give you an idea of their speed and the Mangaka's grasp on anatomy and thought proceses.
I got so hype in early Naruto, it carried me trough the whole manga with momentum alone. Good thing it did, but because some great shit comes at the end.
Honestly I can't remember much off the top of my head, Anything by Zimaut, Later episodes of Madness combat, Gildedguy. 50% of 1v1 animations you can find. It's less that that western is always weighty or elaborate, and more that jap animation is never that. Even FMA which I really liked shit the bed in the civil war arc
>It's less that that western is always weighty or elaborate, and more that jap animation is never that.
There are tons of anime that convey that have this in their action though, but like I said it varies a lot depending on genre and time because certain styles got more popular in certain eras and certain genres lean towards one style.
Currently the flashier faster paced style is just more popular with shounen.
>all anime with fight scenes is shonen
wew lad, I guess?
I wanted to give the benefit of the doubt to mecha at least but anon posted a webm and it's just the same thing again, So I guess i'll go make a bomb threat to an anime studio
All of you are forgetting that these shonen anime are, most of the time, 1:1 copies of manga material. So they're not built from ground up with animation in mind. All the action and plot within these manga is constrained to a weekly 18-page format where one author is scrambling to do everything all at once and hoping to garner enough hype every week so his series doesn't get the axe. That in itself is riddled with tropes and tricks and expectations of any given magazine it's published in. These animated commercials can't really be compared to series planned as animation from the start with altogether different circumstances.
A lot of manga adaptations aren't 1:1 visually, the story might be but they take a lot of visual liberties. At most you'll have a couple shots throughout an episode that reference ones in the manga, and some important spreads from a manga may be turned into shots, but otherwise the majority of the animation is made up for the anime, especially these days.
Attack on Titan is a good example of that, nobody was expecting the show to look the way it did because the mangaka wasn't really that skilled at drawing when he started.
The action direction in that show was basically divorced from anything in the manga.
Manga as a medium also has a very cinematic style that lends itself well to being adapted.
Like being able to carry a scene with dialogue/context/sound alone. Not that anime can't do that as well, but it feels like subtlety gets shitcanned in favor of being flashy and dramatic
> american animation prioritizes substance
>Like being able to carry a scene with dialogue/context/sound alone. Not that anime can't do that as well, but it feels like subtlety gets shitcanned in favor of being flashy and dramatic
do you watch anything besides shounen
Sometimes, but modern anime as a whole just doesn't seem nuanced to me. The last exception I remember was Sonny Boy but apparently everyone thought it was pretentious so we're not getting anything else like it soon
Sonny Boy may be in the minority, but it's not like there's any equivalent in Western Animation.
A part of that is just numbers, Japan pumps out way more animated series than the U.S so there's more room for experimental series.
That said, it's also noticeable that Western Animation is way more constricted in it's genres. There's no real equivalent of the sports anime for instance.
>Like being able to carry a scene with dialogue/context/sound alone.
I can't remember the last time a cartoon was able to carry a scene on context or sound alone, especially the latter, since the latter includes music, which tends to be far better in anime than in cartoons.
I can't even think of any memorable cartoon soundtracks off the top of my head.
Actual animation. You Can't do animation on threes in the US and you can't get away with moving backgrounds, never doing moving holds, and never properly lip syncing. But all these things come out of the same studios Anime comes out of, you just have different standards for different markets. You can do fully hand painted backgrounds and very stylized characters in Anime, because you don't actually have to make someone animate it on twos and ones with proper timing and arcing so the movements don't look floaty, choppy, or just awkward. In the US cartoon characters still have three fingers instead of four, because it looks more natural when animated.
Again, these different styles of animation all use the same groups of people, it's about what the audience not the artists.
>Actual animation
But is it actual *good* animation? I don't like a majority of anime at all, but much of what you described with
>proper timing and arcing so the movements don't look floaty, choppy, or just awkward
is unicorn-tier rare here outside of movies and the occasional exception here and there. It doesn't help that we -mostly- rely on the same groups anime studios do for our in-betweening/key framing: Koreans
I don't have the webm on hand that flashes between 20 different anime doing the exact same scenes and camera angles but trust me they aren't exactly innovating.
>point camera at fist slowly clinching
At most for cartoons with a sitcom setups it is mostly used for cartoons that are comedy focused.
It's here
Literally every frame of that is superior to anything from the US
>Shitskin bootlicker is coping again
>White supremacist has his ego bruised
Many such cases.
>Having the golden age be all whites is ego bruised
Lmao ok enjoy your moeshit
don't throw stones at glass houses
I shit on tranime with every oportunity but I see nothing wrong with that.
Why re-invent the wheel? And can't you see the positive aspect of that? Mass-consumers get what they expect, they can focus on the story or other conveyed feelings instead.
most of these are Sol/comedy anime, basically the sitcoms of anime.
And these scenes aren't particularly important either.
It would be like compiling a bunch of shots from comedy cartoons that use the same single-camera style of cinematography OP is talking about.
That being said the whole discussion is baity as hell because it devolves into east vs west shitflinging.
It would've been better to make comparisons between American tv animation and its film counterparts like ITSV, or more recent endeavors in more cinematic animation with shows like Arcane.
These two are a few rare examples of what OP is talking about, but we don't see that style of filmmaking as much in our tv animation.
>That being said the whole discussion is baity as hell because it devolves into east vs west shitflinging.
That's why we're here?
Arcane had some really amazing lighting and color work.
I should make a Cinegrid some time.
Absolutely beautiful show.
Arcane in general is a masterclass in animation.
Unfortunately with the current state of American animation, I doubt anyone working in the industry will learn anything from it.
If anything it'l be the opposite, they'll try to copy Arcane's success and literally produce their own 3D animated series.
Its lighting looks basic to be fair.
It's as if they used mostly shaders without having much to render.
>That being said the whole discussion is baity as hell because it devolves into east vs west shitflinging.
not really (well the first part of what op said) but people on this site cant discuss technical and culturally different things without trying to be stupidly bias and aggressively comparing one thing to another, in our case its pretty one side since the other party doesnt want to hear their own issues.
but you're right.
This again?
anime: looks like shit, no fluidity, boring backgrounds, disguises looking like shit with bloom / hdr effects, every character design is the same
cartoons: unique character designs, extreme fluidity, sovlful backgrounds, no digitial fx bullshit, actually appealing to look at
based
>cartoons
Hope you're referring to just theatrical cartoons on that note. TV cartoons are just the same shit anime but (barely) better animated.
It's true though. TV animation is ugly-looking, cost-saving bullshit predominantly animated in Korea sweatshops much like anime is.
>cartoons: unique character designs, extreme fluidity, sovlful backgrounds, no digitial fx bullshit, actually appealing to look at
This ain't the 90s anymore
I was just thinking about this the other day. You get glimpses of nuanced "camera acting" (I say that instead of cinematography because I don't want to sound like a snob) in some western animation but mostly there's a focus on creating identifiable and memorable silhouettes first to prioritize easy merchandising. Western animation used to be good
You don't sound like a snob at all more like a moron.
>Muh cartoon pretends to be real, mimics camera positions and physical interactions with environment...
There's nothing intelligent or high brow about this. It's all moronic.
Extremely American post right here.
I'm European.
Rent free.
Prove it.
Its mostly to avoid drawing in perspective, shure it resembles a play, but it is well stablished as a way to make it easier to produce.
Because the competition there is higher so you either deliver a masterpiece or you die jobless
The sublo guy explained it. moronic producers/directors demand that you make the show look like a sitcom.
Executives are the cancer of every creative industry
Palindrome captcha proves it
You're right, Satan.
Modern American artists, especially animators, don't care about cinematography. Neither do the companies they work for.
East vs West threads are always shit because everyone compares the 10% of good shit from their side to the 90% of trash from the other
Only on TV animation, cinematography on theatrical animation is seldom like a sitcom
>cinematography on theatrical animation is seldom like a sitcom
lolwut?
American workers are spoiled babies with too many rights so the best they can do is use pre-made software with prebuilt rigs and even animations to kinda approach the movements in the story board for about 8 hours per day. Meanwhile, East asian workers are happy ti be paid 20% the American worker's minimum wage for spending 100 hours per week detailing a high school girl's panties and cameltoe.
That, and the mafia-like power of actor unions supporting voice actors, is why the average Rick and Morty episode ends up costing like 10-20 times more than the average Boruto episode.
>east vs west thread
The same 10 threads. over and over and over and over and over and over and over again
I'd associate stage plays with better staging and use of space, since they have to get creative to sell certain scenarios, the good ones at least.
Anime's strength in cinematography probably does come from it's history in limited animation. The more driven artists learned how to stage things interestingly to keep things engaging. As the pipelines developed and the know-how of to create better animation for it developed, that cinematographic knowledge got applied and you got great all-rounders.
Of course a lot shows lack the animation or sometimes both, but then we get into the numbers game of how much animation Japan produces.
This. Constraint breeds innovation. Western cartoons are to used to having enough budget to just do things the more obvious way possible, which is boring, while much of what makes anime interesting visually is a result of them having to figure out ways to make things look as good as they can on limited resources.
Like the UFOTable current standard of 2d characters fighting inside a 3d box. Thats a hell of a lot cheaper to use that 2D drawing everything, and once you have it set up you are encouraged to keep the camera moving with the action to keep the background constantly in motion to make composition less visually jarring. This leads to more dynamic and visually interesting fight choreography than simply watching these two characters beat each other up from a moderate distance, which would be the simple, easy, obvious answer. It also means that they can afford to focus more of their time and talent on whats happening in the foreground, because the background is already taken care of, so the end product looks better.
Western animation would never invent the UFOtable fight, because they would never *have* to.
I love western animation, but it's so refreshing to see new and upcoming artists in Japan be given the opportunity to display their talents. I get the impression that the western industry is almost impossibly difficult to break into, which is a shame because I see so many indie projects with real potential.
Anime sucks. It's pretty sad that you can look at a drawing and immediately see that it was drawn by a japanese person. I don't get it, is the emperor ordering to draw cartoons in a certain way? Why are they so uncreative?
>even comedic anime and slice of life is presented as immersive escapism
Gee, I wonder why anime is so popular with secluded losers.
This but unironically 🙁
I shouldn't have to go back 10-20 years to find Isekai that's about exploring a strange, interesting new world instead of wanking the self-insert
You don't have to, you just have to go back to summer of 2021.
Anime looks like shit and pretty much never produces any aesthetic scene.
I have never seen an anime snippet or webm worth saving.
You could easily go over to /wsg/ and fix that right now if you weren’t lazy.
Already watched multiple anime threads.
>I have never seen an anime snippet or webm worth saving.
Read carefully.
You must not got to many threads or have some terrible fricking taste friend.
Looks like some moronic bonds movie except it's tranime. The pacing is horrible and it looks disgusting.
It’s pretty clear I could link to kino clip after kino clip the whole night and you’re just going to go “nu-uh, that’s actually not that good”.
So why don’t you post a webm of western animation you think was worth saving or find to be good looking.
Yeah, the Patablor style is pretty close if you like it though.
>So why don’t you post a webm of western animation you think was worth saving or find to be good looking.
I don't watch animation at all.
Your both quotes are me there, fricking autist lol.
>I don't watch animation at all.
why the frick are you even on this board, let alone this thread about animation then dickhead?
>baaah autism
>baaah we have to gate-keep it
you're a basic b***h autist
What does your autistic post have to do with what I said?
why should anyone listen to what you have to say on this subject when you've admitted that you don't know anything about it?
I didn't admit such a thing. You autism is taking you to presuming too much and to leaps of logic, almost like schizophrenics if you think about it.
But I understand why a tranime fan couldn't ever debate or reply in good faith, you lack the capacity and never been exposed to western and objective values like logical errors, the art of rhetoric, Truth!
>get called out
>better just call everybody an autist
Damn bro, you went full moron. Never go full moron.
>get called out
where, about what?
meds!!!
>I don’t watch animation at all
>comes into an animation thread to b***h about anime specifically
And I’m the autistic one? Sounds a bit like the pot calling the kettle Black person.
laika>>>
Simple as
are his legs really to scale with his perspective?
I like that one. Always did but isn't it from a music video?
This is one of the most pretentious posts I've read in a while. You literally posted an anime film, shown in cinemas, so of course it's going to be more cinematic. No shit most cartoons take after vaudeville, the majority of cartoons are comedies designed first and foremost for telling jokes and making people laugh. There are far more anime that have no concern for comedy so of course they have more freedom to be more cinematic.
>the majority of cartoons are comedies designed first and foremost for telling jokes and making people laugh
aka filler with no substance
what do you mean by filler? If a show's goal is to make you laugh and it spends most of it's time trying to do that it's not filler.
>American animation - barely any giant robot shows each year (And if there's one it's like once every 2-3 years)
>Japanese animation - at least 5-10 giant robot shows each year.
Conclusion: America needs to make less Family Guy clones and more shows like Megas XLR/Sym-Bionic Titan/The first 2 seasons of Voltron: Legendary Defender.
>we need more Cinemaphile mecha
I see you are a man of culture like me.
east vs west arguments are so fricking autistic. I don't understand why there are so many people that can apparently only enjoy one, while thinking the other is entirely shit. I enjoy both, because I like animation in general. I seriously think something is wrong with some of you
Based anon.
Speaking of Simpsons, the classic seasons usually had visually interesting shots. Man it was such a good show at its peak.
I do too but there's no denying American animation is in dire straits right now.
I think the problem started when U.S. and Canadian networks imported Sailor Moon, DBZ and Pokemon and then grab any anime that caught their attention without actually learning the target demographic.
case in point: Toonami acquired Outlaw Star over 2 decades ago glossing over the fact that it was a seinen anime. The original manga not only had the usual boobs but beaver shots as well.
https://m.manganelo.com/manga-ti107776
The original Outlaw Star. Enjoy.
> I don't understand why there are so many people that can apparently only enjoy one, while thinking the other is entirely shit.
Internet tribalism. The way i see it, the people who grew up enjoying cartoons AND the people who grew up enjoying anime both did so knowing it was a niche, unpopular pastime they were probably going to be made fun of for.
Anime has become more mainstream now, but for a long time it was considered a deeply weird nerd subculture, with the stuff aimed at kids AND the horny graphic adult stuff both being used to disparage it from different directions.
Meanwhile, cartoons were either toy commercials, stuff aimed at literal elementary schoolers, or The Simpsons. the vast majority of it was kid stuff (thanks Disney) without only a few standouts from that which bordered on cultural acceptability like South Park and Family Guy.
The point being, both groups of nerds tend to get lumped at the bottom of the pile. And like anyone at the bottom of the totem pole, there are few things more important than making sure someone else is below YOU so you can feel that at least you are superior to someone.
I think this feeds into a lot of the shit-flinging. There are obviously trolls feeding it, but its successful for them because both groups have a lot of people very insecure and defensive about their hobby and who have drawn a line in the sand they feel compelled to defend.
There is no reason why a discussion about how manga is doing well should trigger comics fans UNLESS those comics fans feel like manga's success is their defeat. The conversation doesn't need to be phrased in such combative terms, but it frequently is.
Who cares? No one in Japan for sure, considering that out of all Western cartoons South Park is the most popular one there.
Because anime has to make up for the fact their characters don't move. Only cost effective means to do so is to provided better compositions. Also helps when the characters are far away you can have dialog without animating their mouths. You're essentially watching a glorified slideshow with maybe one or two scenes of dedicated animation.
tl;dr anime is fricking static.
You fricked up from the start by comparing movie animation with TV animation in your example picture.
OP IS AN ENORMOUS homosexual
Western cares more about the story.
Eastern more about the picture.
Not saying that Western have better stories but they are more focused and "original" in a way.
Eastern stories play a huge role with their incredible visuals but the stories more often than not feel samey.
There are of course exception: I think Invincible has some pretty dope visuals and Mob 100 has some very fricking nice and unique stories to tell.
Overall though, anime is praised for visuals and animation praised for stories.
Smiling Friends I would use as a golden example of western animation, alongside Aqua Teen Hunger Force.
We care more about the story.
>We care more about the story.
I find this hard to believe, considering that western animation is only recently dipping its toes into the water of having actual, long running stories instead of episodic stuff designed for syndication, whereas anime has been telling complete stories for longer than most of us here have been alive.
You can't tell me that the west cares more about the story when in the 90s we were doing Angry Beavers and Rocket Power and Rugrats, while anime had already done stuff like SDF Macross ages ago and was onto doing things like Escaflowne and Serial Experiments Lane.
>I find this hard to believe
Because you only watch children's cartoons in Japan, not western live action
We're talking about trends in animation why would you bring up live-action?
because he's seething
Because that's not what the comment you were replying to is about
The first 2 posts in that chain were about stories in animation.
The anon got backed into a corner and brought out live-action out of nowhere.
>Smiling Friends I would use as a golden example of western animation, alongside Aqua Teen Hunger Force.
>We care more about the story.
You had me going there for a moment ngl.
>Western cares more about the story
>Nearly every single American animated series is a sitcom or LORE with a shit story.
>your meme
>good
>Why American animation has subpar cinematography
Flat staging is usually a cost cutting measure, if not technical limitations of the time.
Nobody gives a shit about anime outside of toothless fatasses on the internet. The most popular anime in the west, DBZ, needs all of spiclandia backing it to keep it afloat.
Die American pig!
Didn't read