For me is one of the best, but I'm a huge fan of seventies martial arts movies and this one hits all the right spots, from aesthetics to music. Just don't think of it as a Batman movie, he's just the hook to sell the film.
I like Shiva, she's cool, and the best type of foil you can get for superhero comics: a Cheshire cat of a person who does what she feels like doing that day and being good at it. One day she'll help you, the next one she'll kick your ass.
Oh hey, that one's mine. What the heck, taking quick requests.
>ackshually Bruce has ANOTHER assassin mentor who's a highly trained operative who he found was actually a bad guy and split ways with
No wonder this jobber is never adapted and gets downplayed in modern comics. He's a pointless addition. You could've just had Henri Ducard be cass' father.
David Cain doesn't add shit to the universe, though. Once shiva's revealed as Cass' mother it totally eclipses Cain's role(as wrong as it should be) because she's just much more interesting and people are attached to her. Cain's only role is to be an old sad sack and rot in jail.
>doesn't add shit to the universe >adds a new Batgirl to the universe
And no, Ducard couldn't have done it because he's an amoral mercenary, not a fighting autist who assassinates to put in practice his theories.
again, all he provides is the sperm to make Cass, effectively. Yes she has some daddy issues. She can have those with an established character.
It's even more pointless with the retcon that he was going to give her to the LoA anyway, or that he had more test subjects. It just makes him a glorified coach. >Ducard couldn't have done it because he's an amoral mercenary, not a fighting autist who assassinates to put in practice his theories.
Because he can't change at all, right? Never mind that Shiva went from being a clear cut hero int he 70's to being an ambiguous anti-hero as per her own creator.
2 months ago
Anonymous
Go fuck yourself. David Cain is an interesting character and more important to Cass than Shiva.
Your argument that he should be erased simply just to have less characters in the universe is absolutely idiotic.
2 months ago
Anonymous
Look if Cain is reinvented as something more unique than what he is, sure, he can stay. But as is he's just not-Ducard, not-Deathstroke. A redundant character, who best serves his purpose for early cass stories then die.
2 months ago
Anonymous
The thing with Ducard is that he's an amoral pragmatist who's looking at the cape universe from outside. He's good at finding and killing people by any means necessary. That's it, and that's what makes him scary. Anything added to the character, a code, a family, a costume... is a mistake and a fundamental misunderstanding of the character and its function, which is mainly to deconstruct the genre.
2 months ago
Anonymous
Cain is fine (or at least pre-New 52 Cain was fine). He's not really comparable to Deathstroke in that he's an explicitly past his prime, broken man and not really trying to be some cool badass.
2 months ago
Anonymous
>all he provides is the sperm to make Cass, effectively
David raised and trained her. All Shiva provided is a womb. She completely abandoned her child until she was already an adult, and has never trained her at all.
2 months ago
Anonymous
>It just makes him a glorified coach.
Bruce is the glorified coach, Cain is the nutjob who thought training a kid to kill before she could speak was a good idea. As a premier supporter of the eugenics theory, he sought out Shiva, specifically to create Cassandra, Cassandra's origin, fighting skills, and difficulty in processing words, was all because of David's insanity and actions. He was the only man insane enough to somehow pursue Shiva to impregnate her and raise her child. Also Shiva doesn't seem the type of person to bother raising a child from birth, Shiva would rather fight and test her own skills than waste her time child rearing
That just means they could have made Ducard more fleshed out by giving him Cain's story.
It's just pointless for both characters to exist. How many evil childhood friends does Bruce have by now?
It's called Batman over training him because he scared he'll get killed like Jason (also writers wanting to make him look cool to readers back then because they hated the Jason). but canon wise actually makes sense Tim being good fighter because Batman would most likely be super careful with him and also he's smart.
Maybe, I feel like Tim holds back lot because he not violent guy and also still younger so he got while before he's as good as the rest of the Batfamily. Most the time Tim beats people in clever ways than force like King Snake.
I personally believe Tim would kick Jason ass though if he didn't hold back because Jason was never really trained and is very blunt force character but Tim holds back on him I think also Dick would kick both their asses.
2 months ago
Anonymous
>I personally believe Tim would kick Jason ass though if he didn't hold back because Jason was never really trained
Jason's training arcs are glazed over, but he had a lot of training done, even with computers. He didn't die for lack of training, he died because he was taken by surprise.
2 months ago
Anonymous
It always felt written that way to me partly but I guess that true and I guess retroactively the writers so Tim training just be like yo guys see this kid is being train because readers started to question that stuff vs when Dick was around no one cared but Year One changed that. Tim did have the most outside of Batman training which idk if other Robins did when they were Robin.
It's insane we barely got any interaction between Huntress and Cass, not just because of the suit connection, but also because she's a kid who needs basic education. Also she doesn't care about her secret ID, which could provide an opening for Huntress to enter the Batfamily inner circle as she always wanted.
I think Babs really, really didn't like having a say in who the next Batgirl was going to be. Don't forget, Cass was Babs' #1 helper during NML and lived and worked with Babs for a long time afterward.
2 months ago
Anonymous
Yeah Babs got an ego about Batgirl, I remember her being annoyed when Harley dressed like her and Zero Hour she freaked out over past version of her though Dick was even more pissed about Harley thing.
>>Best Batgirl works her ass off
eh. Cass is more skilled than her, Helena arguably has less training than Tim.
Also Cass was a grown ass woman originally, she just happened to be childlike.
2 months ago
Anonymous
Cass was sixteen when she debuted.
2 months ago
Anonymous
I thought she was closer to 17/18. She was also drawn more like a woman, too.
2 months ago
Anonymous
Cass felt kinda thrown in perfect new character, Helena feels more natural because of her history with Dick and Tim also love her relationship with Tim, they're a fun duo. I never cared for Cass she always felt bland and kinda there.
Reminder that Dixon, the guy who turned Tim from a momma's boy to the star kid with all the skill boosts who was able to hold his own...still showed that Dick at the same age was better physically, and Steph, who didn't get any proper training had more potential if she started getting trained at 16.
If that was the goal, I do not think Batman believed he succeeded.
oh hey you posted it
Maybe, I feel like Tim holds back lot because he not violent guy and also still younger so he got while before he's as good as the rest of the Batfamily. Most the time Tim beats people in clever ways than force like King Snake.
When it comes to fighting, Tim simply does not have that dog in him. He's too pragmatic by nature to ever really be as natural a fighter. You are totally right that he wins by smarts over force, and better yet more elaborate, unorthadox ways of outsmarting people. And that's a perfectly fine niche.
It be nice to see a writer have the characters fight based on how their trained in canon and not because of favorites....rip Steph....if that happened.
>She's not drawn that hot or cool and the fight choreography in comics sucks ass.
Shiva's more about her personality than anything. And she's been drawn hot plenty of times
Unpopular opinion but Shiva and to a lesser extent Cass should have their asses kicked MORE because being an unassailable god is stupid amongst street level heroes, but it should always be a struggle to do so and when they lose they should come back stronger and beat their foe because being a master martial artist is not about being reaching a level of being unbeatable but instead is about adopting a lifestyle of self-discipline and adaption.
Shiva is definitely a character, she's got far too much history with most bat characters to be just a narrative foil. Cass as a character is much more flat because she always is reduced to kung fu girl.
He is talking about modern DC retard. Batgirl v1 gave Cassandra a full character, modern writers just regulate her to "badass martial arts quiet girl." We don't get stories like the one about her and Kon, and when was the last time her relationship with her father came up?
I agree with this, they feel like Mary Sues sometimes but fanboys spreg when they do get their asses kicked. Late 80's Batman, Daredevil, Question, and Green Arrow should be the standard for street level heroes when comes to getting their asses kicked because boy they got their asses kicked a lot, hell even Punisher got beat up lot before they made him like insanely op.
I agree with this, they feel like Mary Sues sometimes but fanboys spreg when they do get their asses kicked. Late 80's Batman, Daredevil, Question, and Green Arrow should be the standard for street level heroes when comes to getting their asses kicked because boy they got their asses kicked a lot, hell even Punisher got beat up lot before they made him like insanely op.
If you actually read the fucking comics instead of just reading their power sets on wikipedias you'd realize that Cass loses a lot. Like a lot a lot. Less so in physical confrontation but the book actually used her biggest weaknesses against her. Most of her victories ended up being Pyrrhic and the best writers knew to make her struggles about more than just punching and kicking.
Her fans make her out like she an perfect character, also she pretty irreverent outside of her own book and in other books she miss perfect say for that one Robin run.
Shiva never really had an define look like I get she doesn't wear a villain costume but even other non-costume villains have define look to them like Zasz or Ra's, Shiva always looks different besides the color red.
>First time I've ever seen Shiva as a kid was in Hush >Kicks Catwoman ass >Leaves >Me: this character sucks >Second time I see her in Robin mini as a kid >Shows up messes with Robin acts like a weird bitch >Leaves >Me: This character sucks
Yeah she not a good villain she's boring she just ooh crazy fight lady even as a kid I realize that.
Sure but make it so that you keep your distance, preferably thousands of miles apart. She will eventually find and kill you, of course. Before that she might give you a very detailed description about how she's gonna off you while she's stripping.
I wish more Batman comics would play up that he is only a very GOOD martial artist and is not counted among the pinnacle. He should absolutely shit himself realizing he has to go up against Shiva, or Bronze Tiger, for example, because while he had to learn dozens of different skills and master them to become Batman, they devoted every ounce of focus to becoming fighters.
To stand a chance against Shiva he should need to rely heavily on his tools, his theatrics and misdirection, and taking advantage of their environment to skew the odds. If there's ever a point he has to throw hands with her or her peers without extra fuckery on his side, he should be completely overwhelmed.
Very boring and over hyped and over shilled. I think it's kind of annoying to have the supposed best martial artist in the universe be so boring and dull, she has no great story or origin or personality, she doesn't even look cool or have a consistent design. Just some random asian bitch. She only really exists to cater to Denny O'Neil's fetishes which aren't really as interesting as other writers fetishes.
By seethe do you mean "Become exceedingly aroused?"
>Since we have numerical superiority, the best tactic is to attack one by one while the rest wait their turn.
worst trope ever in all media
Is Soul of the Dragon any good/worth a watch?
For me is one of the best, but I'm a huge fan of seventies martial arts movies and this one hits all the right spots, from aesthetics to music. Just don't think of it as a Batman movie, he's just the hook to sell the film.
iti personally thought that movie was _fun_
Because she stopped being Jade Canary.
She tried to cure Tim Drake of his homosexuality.
She's an evil dommy mommy and it's too hot for most people to handle
Does she? I thought most people like Shiva.
People like Beast from X-men too. Think about why they're mad.
Because she makes everyone look like a chump.
mommy
Please don't start threads with an intentionally false premise.
She beat Katana so bad they basically fell in love.
I like Shiva, she's cool, and the best type of foil you can get for superhero comics: a Cheshire cat of a person who does what she feels like doing that day and being good at it. One day she'll help you, the next one she'll kick your ass.
Oh hey, that one's mine. What the heck, taking quick requests.
Shiva getting flustered and blushing over a compliment
This is as flustered as I can imagine Shiva getting.
Nice!
Who could have gotten her that flustered, I wonder...
David Cain was not only a top tier assassin, his flirting game was off the charts
>Shiva if I win this fight....I get to creampie you until you're ready to burst
>her face when
She only agreed to it because the reverse part of the bet also held true
WTF is wrong with his right ear.
Sweet
Shiva choking out Stephanie and Cass trying to stop her and Steph is like "no...it's fine..." with a dreamy look on her face"
>Is this what Tim felt when he discovered Bernard swallows and won't chicken out of taking it up the butt?
>Steph spends the rest of the month awkwardly trying to convince Cass to choke her for "training"
>Do not be alarmed, Cassandra, your blonde friend is unharmed. She even retained enough personal dignity to call me "ma'am" instead of "mommy."
>Oyakodon
>Stop saying that
>Oyakodon
>We're not even Japanese!
harder.....harder...harder... TOO HARD!!...harder
God I wish that was me.
Shiva and Cass with Yujiro Hanma backs.
She has to go back to her firs appearance look.
I seethe at the fact that she hasn't fucked Richard Dragon to give Cass a kungfu ubermensch little brother.
I dont mind her
I still want to know what the FUCK DC was thinking with Shiva-saurus at the beginning of new 52.
As a whole, Shivasaurus bad, but I think there's an idea somewhere in making her so deadly even her hair can kill.
wait, that's Shiva?!
Sadly, yes.
>look lady you can kill as many people with your bare hands as you wish but I draw the line at consensual sex with a sixteen year old.
She makes gymbros seethe by beating up men through sheer skill, even though it's realistic
Me when I make shit up.
>appears
>effortlessly beats the shit out of anyone who tries to fight her
>refuses to elaborate
>leaves
What is there to like about that
facts
Lots
>appears
>kills Shiva's sister
>impregnates Shiva
>raises the child
>drinks
What a chad.
>ackshually Bruce has ANOTHER assassin mentor who's a highly trained operative who he found was actually a bad guy and split ways with
No wonder this jobber is never adapted and gets downplayed in modern comics. He's a pointless addition. You could've just had Henri Ducard be cass' father.
Yes anon and Anakin Skywalker was raised in Tatooine, because when an universe feels small and depopulated, that's good!
David Cain doesn't add shit to the universe, though. Once shiva's revealed as Cass' mother it totally eclipses Cain's role(as wrong as it should be) because she's just much more interesting and people are attached to her. Cain's only role is to be an old sad sack and rot in jail.
>doesn't add shit to the universe
>adds a new Batgirl to the universe
And no, Ducard couldn't have done it because he's an amoral mercenary, not a fighting autist who assassinates to put in practice his theories.
again, all he provides is the sperm to make Cass, effectively. Yes she has some daddy issues. She can have those with an established character.
It's even more pointless with the retcon that he was going to give her to the LoA anyway, or that he had more test subjects. It just makes him a glorified coach.
>Ducard couldn't have done it because he's an amoral mercenary, not a fighting autist who assassinates to put in practice his theories.
Because he can't change at all, right? Never mind that Shiva went from being a clear cut hero int he 70's to being an ambiguous anti-hero as per her own creator.
Go fuck yourself. David Cain is an interesting character and more important to Cass than Shiva.
Your argument that he should be erased simply just to have less characters in the universe is absolutely idiotic.
Look if Cain is reinvented as something more unique than what he is, sure, he can stay. But as is he's just not-Ducard, not-Deathstroke. A redundant character, who best serves his purpose for early cass stories then die.
The thing with Ducard is that he's an amoral pragmatist who's looking at the cape universe from outside. He's good at finding and killing people by any means necessary. That's it, and that's what makes him scary. Anything added to the character, a code, a family, a costume... is a mistake and a fundamental misunderstanding of the character and its function, which is mainly to deconstruct the genre.
Cain is fine (or at least pre-New 52 Cain was fine). He's not really comparable to Deathstroke in that he's an explicitly past his prime, broken man and not really trying to be some cool badass.
>all he provides is the sperm to make Cass, effectively
David raised and trained her. All Shiva provided is a womb. She completely abandoned her child until she was already an adult, and has never trained her at all.
>It just makes him a glorified coach.
Bruce is the glorified coach, Cain is the nutjob who thought training a kid to kill before she could speak was a good idea. As a premier supporter of the eugenics theory, he sought out Shiva, specifically to create Cassandra, Cassandra's origin, fighting skills, and difficulty in processing words, was all because of David's insanity and actions. He was the only man insane enough to somehow pursue Shiva to impregnate her and raise her child. Also Shiva doesn't seem the type of person to bother raising a child from birth, Shiva would rather fight and test her own skills than waste her time child rearing
David Cain has probably been in more comics than Ducard at this point and is more fleshed out.
That just means they could have made Ducard more fleshed out by giving him Cain's story.
It's just pointless for both characters to exist. How many evil childhood friends does Bruce have by now?
people seethe at Shiva?
I always thought of her as an insanely based batvillain and DC's top MILF
Cassandra's mom has got it going on
Lady ''I got my ass kicked by a child'' Shiva.
Tim's retard kung fu is for real, huh?
>homosexual kung fu
It's called Batman over training him because he scared he'll get killed like Jason (also writers wanting to make him look cool to readers back then because they hated the Jason). but canon wise actually makes sense Tim being good fighter because Batman would most likely be super careful with him and also he's smart.
If that was the goal, I do not think Batman believed he succeeded.
Maybe, I feel like Tim holds back lot because he not violent guy and also still younger so he got while before he's as good as the rest of the Batfamily. Most the time Tim beats people in clever ways than force like King Snake.
I personally believe Tim would kick Jason ass though if he didn't hold back because Jason was never really trained and is very blunt force character but Tim holds back on him I think also Dick would kick both their asses.
>I personally believe Tim would kick Jason ass though if he didn't hold back because Jason was never really trained
Jason's training arcs are glazed over, but he had a lot of training done, even with computers. He didn't die for lack of training, he died because he was taken by surprise.
It always felt written that way to me partly but I guess that true and I guess retroactively the writers so Tim training just be like yo guys see this kid is being train because readers started to question that stuff vs when Dick was around no one cared but Year One changed that. Tim did have the most outside of Batman training which idk if other Robins did when they were Robin.
Batman never makes sense.
>Best Batgirl works her ass off
>Is fired by Batman for simple mistake
>let's a child who can't speak take over.
It's insane we barely got any interaction between Huntress and Cass, not just because of the suit connection, but also because she's a kid who needs basic education. Also she doesn't care about her secret ID, which could provide an opening for Huntress to enter the Batfamily inner circle as she always wanted.
I think Babs really, really didn't like having a say in who the next Batgirl was going to be. Don't forget, Cass was Babs' #1 helper during NML and lived and worked with Babs for a long time afterward.
Yeah Babs got an ego about Batgirl, I remember her being annoyed when Harley dressed like her and Zero Hour she freaked out over past version of her though Dick was even more pissed about Harley thing.
>>Best Batgirl works her ass off
eh. Cass is more skilled than her, Helena arguably has less training than Tim.
Also Cass was a grown ass woman originally, she just happened to be childlike.
Cass was sixteen when she debuted.
I thought she was closer to 17/18. She was also drawn more like a woman, too.
Cass felt kinda thrown in perfect new character, Helena feels more natural because of her history with Dick and Tim also love her relationship with Tim, they're a fun duo. I never cared for Cass she always felt bland and kinda there.
Reminder that Dixon, the guy who turned Tim from a momma's boy to the star kid with all the skill boosts who was able to hold his own...still showed that Dick at the same age was better physically, and Steph, who didn't get any proper training had more potential if she started getting trained at 16.
oh hey you posted it
When it comes to fighting, Tim simply does not have that dog in him. He's too pragmatic by nature to ever really be as natural a fighter. You are totally right that he wins by smarts over force, and better yet more elaborate, unorthadox ways of outsmarting people. And that's a perfectly fine niche.
It be nice to see a writer have the characters fight based on how their trained in canon and not because of favorites....rip Steph....if that happened.
OP being retarded aside, Shiva makes everyone hard.
Women belong in the kitchen
She's not drawn that hot or cool and the fight choreography in comics sucks ass.
I don't understand why anyone likes her or her comics.
>She's not drawn that hot or cool and the fight choreography in comics sucks ass.
Shiva's more about her personality than anything. And she's been drawn hot plenty of times
Don't forget Duke wants to plow Shiva and Shiva seems into it.
She wants to bang Duke with Cass in attendance so she can learn. Then she’ll watch Cass bang Duke and offer commentary.
>Shiva doesn't want to lose another one to the homosexuals
True
I like Duke/Cass
So does Shiva
anyone have that dumb meme pic of Shiva dating Jim Gordon?
cute!
... you know, I dig it. Dunno why, but it clicks somehow.
Gordon has bad taste in women, makes sense.
Now post the other Shiva / Gordon pic. You know... the other one
Unpopular opinion but Shiva and to a lesser extent Cass should have their asses kicked MORE because being an unassailable god is stupid amongst street level heroes, but it should always be a struggle to do so and when they lose they should come back stronger and beat their foe because being a master martial artist is not about being reaching a level of being unbeatable but instead is about adopting a lifestyle of self-discipline and adaption.
Shiva is a narrative foil, not a character. And Cass deal is not about being the best, is about her struggling with her violent upbringing.
Shiva is definitely a character, she's got far too much history with most bat characters to be just a narrative foil. Cass as a character is much more flat because she always is reduced to kung fu girl.
>ass as a character is much more flat because she always is reduced to kung fu girl.
Nigga, read Batgirl v.1
Irrelevant in a post DiDio DC.
He is talking about modern DC retard. Batgirl v1 gave Cassandra a full character, modern writers just regulate her to "badass martial arts quiet girl." We don't get stories like the one about her and Kon, and when was the last time her relationship with her father came up?
This why Helena should've stay as Batgirl, Cass could be new Huntress in the background just looking cool LMAO
I'm fine with them losing, but a lot of times they're used to build up other characters when they lose, and that's a problem.
That's fair, it shouldn't be done in a jobbing way just to establish a new guy as a badass.
I agree with this, they feel like Mary Sues sometimes but fanboys spreg when they do get their asses kicked. Late 80's Batman, Daredevil, Question, and Green Arrow should be the standard for street level heroes when comes to getting their asses kicked because boy they got their asses kicked a lot, hell even Punisher got beat up lot before they made him like insanely op.
If you actually read the fucking comics instead of just reading their power sets on wikipedias you'd realize that Cass loses a lot. Like a lot a lot. Less so in physical confrontation but the book actually used her biggest weaknesses against her. Most of her victories ended up being Pyrrhic and the best writers knew to make her struggles about more than just punching and kicking.
Blame her fanbase.
No I blame idiots like you who don't read comics
Her fans make her out like she an perfect character, also she pretty irreverent outside of her own book and in other books she miss perfect say for that one Robin run.
She was mostly treated like a weirdo in other books, when she actually appeared outside of her title.
>Fans don't like when character isn't written in character
Wow. Shock and fucking awe. You're an idiot.
Like when?
Shiva never really had an define look like I get she doesn't wear a villain costume but even other non-costume villains have define look to them like Zasz or Ra's, Shiva always looks different besides the color red.
Her iconic modern look is literally in the OP.
It looks different everytime an artist draws it, kinda like Two Face face and suit but not in a cool way like that but boring way.
She need to go back to the pirate look.
>First time I've ever seen Shiva as a kid was in Hush
>Kicks Catwoman ass
>Leaves
>Me: this character sucks
>Second time I see her in Robin mini as a kid
>Shows up messes with Robin acts like a weird bitch
>Leaves
>Me: This character sucks
Yeah she not a good villain she's boring she just ooh crazy fight lady even as a kid I realize that.
Beating up Selina and refusing to elaborate is dangerously based, though.
>Later I read Question as a kid
>She shows up, fucks with Vic and leaves
>Me: this character sucks.
Congrats you read two of her worst outings precisely for the reason she comes off just like that
If she's so cool why doesn't she sex?
Cass wasn't born from a pod, you know.
The game Sifu, but you're Shiva.
Oyakodon with Shiva and Cass.
Are they good cooks or what? Why that dish?
For me is her kidnappeable sister, Carolyn
Hypothetically could I hold Carolyn hostage to make Shiva strip for me?
Shiva would probably just kill you.
Sure but make it so that you keep your distance, preferably thousands of miles apart. She will eventually find and kill you, of course. Before that she might give you a very detailed description about how she's gonna off you while she's stripping.
I wish more Batman comics would play up that he is only a very GOOD martial artist and is not counted among the pinnacle. He should absolutely shit himself realizing he has to go up against Shiva, or Bronze Tiger, for example, because while he had to learn dozens of different skills and master them to become Batman, they devoted every ounce of focus to becoming fighters.
To stand a chance against Shiva he should need to rely heavily on his tools, his theatrics and misdirection, and taking advantage of their environment to skew the odds. If there's ever a point he has to throw hands with her or her peers without extra fuckery on his side, he should be completely overwhelmed.
Would Shiva/Cass be able to beat pic related though?
Cass and Shiva probably have demon back muscles.
I just want to impregnat lady shiva
Don't we all?
I want to impregnate Lady Shiva's daughter
Revealing Cass as Shiva's daughter was literally the worst retcon of the 00s.
lol no
The last writer to use Shiva for Shiva's sake was Gail Simone in the mid 00s. Ever since Rebirth she's only been used for her relationship to Cass.
Very boring and over hyped and over shilled. I think it's kind of annoying to have the supposed best martial artist in the universe be so boring and dull, she has no great story or origin or personality, she doesn't even look cool or have a consistent design. Just some random asian bitch. She only really exists to cater to Denny O'Neil's fetishes which aren't really as interesting as other writers fetishes.
I don't care if Cinemaphilemblr gets mad at me for this one, having a best hand-to-hand fighter be a woman is fucking retarded.