With the exception of lex luthor and doomsday (i think).
Why superman villains are not very popular or iconic in comparison to batman villains?
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With the exception of lex luthor and doomsday (i think). Why superman villains are not very popular or iconic in comparison to batman villains?
They keep reusing Lex & Zod is a major reason. Other villains can't get any traction in normies minds.
In the Christopher Reeves films they basically do versions of Brainiac and Bizarro but change them up so drastically into versions unrecognizable aka Computer lady from III and Nuclear Man from IV. Throw in cheap versions of Brainiac & Doomsday from Smallville and nobody else can measure up to Lex & Zod.
Pretty much. Hell, it was Superman II that's the reason Zod's even remembered. Before that, he was just one of many and not evne the most prominent. Once it came out though, he and the Phantom Zone villains got included in every DC villain group shot.
Why is Lex posed like a Victoria's Secret model?
Because Batman has gotten more adaptations. More movies, more TV shows, more video games. That's what normies care about, so that's what they'll remember.
simple as. dont know why this is so hard for Cinemaphile to understand.
It's all about exposure. Superman villains tend to be underexposed compared to Batman villains for three reasons:
>Opportunity
This one is simple. Batman has more monthly comics (and as said, adaptations) than Superman does. Batman villains show up more because they have more opportunities to show up.
>Compression
Superman stories tend to be more decompressed compared to Batman stories. For example, take the current Action Comics storyline where Superman has been fighting Mongul for a year in real time. Even if you only look at one Batman book, he's fought multiple villains over the course of the year in that one book, whereas Superman has fought only one.
>Competition from OCs
Batman writers are typically fans of the character's history. They want to use the classic rogues gallery because they see it as an important part of that history. Superman writers are typically not fans of the character's history. They haven't read many runs before their own, if any. They are more attracted to the prestige that comes with writing the character. This is one instance where Superman's status as an American cultural icon actually works against him. Superman writers aren't familiar with his rogues gallery, so they create OCs that are usually very similar to other OCs that previous writers created for the same reason. And because these OCs never escape their creators' runs, they never get enough traction to become part of the rogues gallery. So Superman's rogues gallery just stagnates.
If you compare any superhero's rogues gallery to another's, it usually comes down to some combination of these three factors.
>OCs that are usually very similar to other OCs
Black Zero>>>>>>>>>>>
Zhan
it really doesn't help that every writer comes on the book with the plan to make the most iconic villain ever. And usually ends up just making another albino strong guy all over again.
I really hate hel and rogu aal
Lobo wasn't created as a Superman villain though, he is more cosmic dc than been part of any rouge gallery, is just his DCAU version end up tied him to supes, kinda how Grundy used to be Green Lantern character but nowadays everyone think he is a Batman villain.
Most are pretty derivative after the initial few popular ones. They mostly fall into the category of super smart guy that builds robots and rayguns, or really strong monster that punches hard.
After Lex, Doomsday, and Zod, guys like Henshaw, Mongul, Metallo, Bizarro, Toyman, etc seem like more of the same thing or a lesser version of it.
Also adaptations can sometimes bring up a better concept of a villain that comics later adapt. Timm Mr Freeze and Clayface were better concepts. The 90s Spider-Man cartoon added a lot to Venom and the symbiot that was kept up in comics.
Henshaw honestly was used better as a Green Lantern villain.
Before they reboot superman they should make a genuine superman cartoon TV show. Test out some of the forgotten villains lost to time and hopefully salvage 2 or 3 so that they don't have to depend on well know superman stories once they come out on cinema and kinda disappoint some comic book fans. Even if they don't they can adapt superman's most popular stories. Zod, Metallo, Doomsday, Lex, Bizzaro and Brainiac could all be really popular if the films are done right. It's a tragedy that people care more about B and C list Marvel villains whilst the most iconic ones in DC from the superman stories aren't even in public consciousness.
Maybe normies remember there was a bad guy who fought superman in the man of Steel film but do they know its Zod, can they even understand why he wanted to wipe earth except Le ebil villain with sky laser wants to destroy earth. But everyone understands Thanos' motives. Even the most brain dead people I know understood because it was explained properly.
Who tf cared about the Doomsday from Batman Vs Superman. No one was hurt except superman and everyone knew he would be back anyways. Plus it was a shit film. Do people even remember there was a Lex Luthor in that film?
The action, cinematography and even the plot can easily be forgotten but what people do remember is the villains motives and philosophy. Hopefully DC remembers the basics of storytelling and doesn't let a 1 hit wonder moron run a franchise again.
That and no media will ever want to use anyone but Lez and Zod every fricking time.
And we’re done. The movies only use Lex or Zod, the last Superman cartoon was in the 90s, and there’s never been a good Superman game. Normies don’t read comics.
Batman's villains tie into the psychology of the character. What Superman villains do that besides Lex?
Superman's rogues are different incarnations of the concept of the "perfect man". Super smart, super strong, super rich, able to rewrite reality on a whim etc etc.
There really is no uniform theme. Just a bunch of aliens, evil Kryptonians, and smart guys.
I never thought of it that way
They are wacky
Zod is an embodiment of his culture's bellicism and supremacism, Brainiac is an alien that himself that quite literally puts entire worlds and cultures in a bottle, obsessed with self agrandizing and treating whole populations as commodities. Lobo equals him in power yet is also a lecherous edgy cynic with no regard for life. The recent Superman vs Lobo comic embodies this pretty well, he makes superman's correctness and seriousness look silly and worthy of mockery. Speaking of recent comics the current Action Comics run has made a pretty good job on showing the dichotomy between Superman and Mongul, who previously was a bit of a nonentity. He enslaves entire cultures and is defined by his own merciless warzoon worldview that sees everything superman stands for as weakness.
Then there's Darkseid, who is basically superman's antithesis as a symbol, as a divine figure, in their relation to the concept of control, in their view of beauty and the capacity of humanity, in inspiring people towards their better or worse nature, and so on.
Brianiac would be up there if they could nail a consistent origin story and character design for him.
His mid-90s design was such a perfectly classic stereotypical villain look while simultaneously feeling unique that I'm kinda mad they didn't keep it.
He looks like stalin,is perfect
It's really in the facial hair, isn't it?
Don't you mean Lenin?
Look at that beard.
Yeah my bad
nice look but a terrible take on the character
I always liked the idea that every Brainiac redesign is one in a series of increasingly advanced probes designed to wear down a planet's defenses.
Classic Brainiac with the pink disco collar and no pants is the simplest model. A robotic interior surrounded by an organic exoskin. They're mass produced and spread all over the universe. Their primary mission is to collect samples of a planet's technology and culture, usually by shrinking a city and putting it in a bottle.
Bronze age metal skeleton Brainiac is a more advanced combat model, designed to interface with a powerful skullship. These are deployed when a basic model fails in their duties.
90's Brainiac is actually a cloud of nanobots that infect and fuse with a local who is detected to have exceptional psychic potential. The purpose of this model is to establish a spy who can infiltrate the planet from within.
Jeph Loeb's Brainiac 13 is a model designed to technoform a city on the planet, establishing a base of oppositions from which future assaults can be launch.
Geoff Johns' back-to-basics take is a field commander, utilizing both a more advanced skullship and an army of robotic drones.
Grant Morrison's centipede design from the New 52 is a model that grants consciousness to the information technology of the planet and turns it against the people.
Telos from Convergence is an experimental model that was discontinued when it ended up being too powerful and almost wiping out reality.
And the "true" Brainiac, the one behind it all? It's less of a person and more of an automated factory, somewhere in the most most remote corner of space. It's only purpose is to keep designing and constructing these probes forever.
Didn't John's already use this idea with toyman?
What, even Jack Nimball?
I'll let that slide just because I always thought making him a child killer was pointlessly edgy.
Yeah, and then he did it to the Joker too. It's a pretty effective method of cleaning house when a character's continuity is all over the place.
Sorta, the Toyman story is heavily ambiguous due to the "real" Toyman making in-universe continuity errors that Jimmy picked up on.
Silver Banshee's problem is that her primary gimmick is never going to work in an ongoing comic. If I were writing a story set after Superman's death I'd have Silver Banshee kill him.
>I'd have Silver Banshee kill him.
hot
>Johns when he was still based
>Single-handedly redeemed Brainiac and made him work through all continuities
>Telos from Convergence
No.
He looks like a dweeb.
braniac is pretty memorable, if only because he managed to become a term for smart people in general
Batman's rogues had the Adam West show
The George Reeve Superman show was before most of his rogues existed
Superman is restricted to villains that could pose a threat to him, while you can just throw anything at the wall and it might end up being a reoccurring Batman villain, so the ones that end up sticking around end up being more memorable just because there's a wider variety of concepts to choose from.
>Superman is restricted to villains that could pose a threat to him
Two of the first ever Superman villains were Toyman and Prankster
Toyman is one of DCs leading minds when it comes to weaponized robotics, the silly toy like appearance is a stark contrast to the level of danger they pose.
Meanwhile Prankster was never a real threat to Superman, and was basically played to be easily defeated for laughs. That's why people have heard of Toyman while Prankster is an obscure reference.
Toyman was also in both Superfriends and the 90's Superman cartoon. Prankster was in the much less watched Ruby Spears cartoon.
His biggest problem is that he's part of the small group of Superman villains who have kryptonite powers as part of their core identity, as opposed to only using it when doing so is necessary for the plot. And within that group, he gets the most appearances, but is also the least interesting. Both Titano and the Kryptonite Man have better story hooks.
Similar to
above, I like the idea of there being a Luthor family so a lot of different takes on the character can coexist.
There would be a Golden Age Alexei Luthor who was the nemesis of Iron Monroe before Superman came to Earth, and all the other Luthors are modified clones of him.
There would be 60's disco collar Luthor who grew up with Superboy in Smallville and hates him for making his hair fall out.
There would be 70's power armor Luthor who's just evil Iron Man.
There would be 80's corporate Luthor who just has normal male pattern baldness and got cancer in his hand from wearing his kryptonite ring too much.
There would be 90's playboy Luthor with a long, bushy head of hair and beard who created the second Supergirl.
There could even be a good Luthor who's a friendly rival to Superman, to represent all the stories where Luthor became a hero, such as when he was king of Planet Lexor or during Dan Jurgen's Rebirth run.
Ironically modern writers tend to treat Toyman as not being a real threat while having Prankster being a formidable challenge to Superman as a distraction-for-hire for other people's schemes.
Lex's ego demands not just that he defeat Superman, but him defeating Superman in way that directly defies Superman's abilities.
Of the many problems Metallo has, I think his main one from a reader standpoint is that writers rarely embrace the fact that as a full-body cyborg he's not bound by human limitations. He shouldn't be standing around blasting Superman with kryptonite beams, he should be pulling off some Dragonball meets Terminator shit.
STAS metallo really hit all the boxes
>when pit against non-kryptonians, he could wipe the floor with them without krptyonite
>has always gotten superman on the backfoot when fighting him, even when supes had a lead-suit
>created his catchphrase "in the flesh"
>terminator-esque design really hammered home his inhuman nature, more than the green-skull design
Metallo has the issue that his origin by necessity ties him to other people so it's hard to make him stand alone without a major alteration to his background.
To me, Metallo always seemed like more of a plot device than a real character on that show. If they wanted to do a role-reversal episode where someone else saves Superman instead of the other way around like usual, they would use Metallo as the villain. Want to introduce Steel and have an actual reason why it's necessary for him to be there? Use Metallo. Want to do an homage to the 70's Jimmy Olsen comics? Use Metallo.
His best episode was definitely the one where he got amnesia and made friends with the kids on the island, but there was only so much they could do with that since they didn't want his growth to be permanent.
Bizarro and Brainiac are iconic enough to become actual words in the English dictionary.
it's hard to use superman villains in adaptations when half the time superman is the villain
Brainiac and Bizarro are both well known in pop culture
if you were to make a superman movie, right now, with no prior world set up, you wouldn't have a lot of good villains to choose from.
>Toyman and Mxysptlk are weird and gimmicky
>Bizarro is shallow and gimmicky
>livewire has always been shit and only waifugays disagree
>parasite is boring
>if you want an evil mastermind there's little reason to use brainiac or the ultra-humanite over lex luthor
>lobo is hard to take seriously
>maybe you could use metallo?
>>
anyone i'm missing?
>brainiac shows up to steal metropolis
>Superman gets trapped in kandor
>escapes and saves the day
>weird and gimmicky
Just like every single Batman villain
Yet here we are
batman's rogues have a whole host of problems as well.
mr freeze has been a joke before and since the DCAU, nobody wants to write the riddler, poison ivy and scarecrow are one-note, the joker has been bastardized beyond recognition, the penguin flips between "rich criminal who just has a fricked up nose and sometimes honks" and "wacky bird guy" with every new incarnation, killer croc is so fricking boring it hurts, and killer moth has been demoted to a joke villain.
Batman's biggest problem is that there are people writing and editing his stories who are too concerned with having stories about a billionaire ninja detective scientist that runs around in a cape and rocket car not appear silly.
Parasite and Silver Banshee would make excellent villains for a horror themed superhero movie.
>Early golden age superman doing golden age shit and can't fly
>government is mad that superman is not taking their shit
>Begins to create Anti-superman weaponry
>Metallo is a prototype and first attempt to stop his meddling
>Golden age superman has trouble but beats him humiliating the government in the public eyes
>Golden age superman goes through a self-discovery of whether he human or alien
>Forces to greater measure and force a soldier to go through a Dr.Manhattan-esq procedure creating Atomic skull
>2nd act hero defeted and goes through his self reflection while atomic skull ironically goes rouge
>3 act golden age superman resolves his emotions and acceptance evolves into silver age superman & learning to fly
>que epic silver age battle in outer space with atomic skull
>resolution with atomic skull being punch into the phantom zone and superman being herald as hero of earth while wishing to learn more about krypton que braniac tease
yeah that could work
Metallo seems like a decent choice for a simple origin villain with a good third act brawl. He's a cyborg, so not a while lot of movie is wasted on it since people know cyborgs.
Intergang with alien weapons also works, you could also include a more obscure villain as one of their enforcers. Like Reactron or Conduit.
Or have the villains be some white martians who were already on Earth and slowly taking over before Superman discovered their existence.
A Bizarroverse movie would be fun
Brainiac was iconic.
>Nick O'Teen
Ah yes, the only villain so evil that Superman made an exception to his rule against killing.
>o'teen
>looks middle aged
And that's why you should never say yes to a cigarette.
Silver Banshee had a cool look/gimmick and her initial appearance is a good comic but I don't see where you really can go with her as far as generating stories go.
Her best appearances after her debut were ones that treated her as an antihero (One of those DC character guide books from the early 2000s also full on called her a hero). Problem is, the time to make her a heroine has passed (She would have fit the 90s like a glove) and would take away one of Supe's few female villains of note, plus writers have a bad tendency of just ignoring reformations when it suits them (Atomic Skull fully reformed for several years, then wham, he was back to begin evil again with no explanation) so it's always back to square one.
Turning a female baddie into an anti-hero is a bit played out though with Silver Banshee it at least sorta makes sense.
Yeah, I owned her first issue as a kid as part of a collection and she was legitimately a big threat for Superman. As I got older I was confused why hadn't been used more.
I think it because she a fantasy villian compare to the science, alien or god based villains superman deals with
magic villains are just inherently at a disadvantage due to the fact that most writers do not know to write them in a modern story and just want to write stark trek or law & order stories
Lex being an evil armored guy always seemed like more of a step down from the evil genius type. Building armor and punching it out with Superman seems like it's always a dumb idea.
It's on par with Lex, since he's fricking moronic.
>Conduit
Always had a soft spot for this dude, he was Hush before Hush was a thing. Needs a non-kryptonite power set and an origin revamp but I’d like to see him come back.
Here's a take on Conduit from an earlier Superman rogues thread that I really liked.
>Kenny and Clark grow up in Smallville.
>Rather than Kenny being a bully, his childhood directly parallels Clark's upbringing in terms of moral development.
>Clark goes off to college, Kenny joins the military.
>Clark and Kenny's early adulthood is contrasted with Kenny slowly shedding the personal aspects of morality in favor of broadly sweeping, and rather flexible, moral positions as he moves onto the CIA while Clark solidifies the necessity of personal morality as he becomes a journalist
>a lot of comparisons between the two in terms of secret identities and repercussions of their actions
>Kenny starts going off the reservation, starting his own intelligence network and hording supertech for his own purposes
>begins making his own plays internationally according to what he feels is the correct or ethical choice with a distinct "ends justify the means" nature
>comes into conflict with Superman who Kenny sees as well-meaning, but a detriment to his plans that needs to be eliminated
>comes into conflict with the US government when they realize he's basically doing whatever the frick he wants on their dime
>slowly modifies himself with supertech until he barely counts as human anymore
>Kenny Braverman, the Conduit to the New World Order
Neat. I've always liked those "Someone has to save the world from itself, don't you see?!"-type villains. It's a good angle for Superman to bash against.
those are some great choices. although i sort of preferred maxima as a hero
I'm surprised Tempus never made the jump to the comics
Forgot pic
It's funny. There have been three DC villains by that name in the comics.
The first one was a Jimmy Olsen villain, and probably the one the version from the show was (very loosely) based on.
The second one was the most similar to the character in the show, in the sense that he was at least a time traveler. But he was also the only one who never fought the Superman family, instead being an enemy of the Flash.
The third one actually appeared while the show was still airing, although he's the least similar to the character in the show. He's a demon who looks like a guy in a speedo, spinning like a tornado while holding a farming implement in each hand. He fought the 90's Supergirl.
All three of them were one-offs.
It's been said, but Brainiac showing up in anything is still an "OH SHIT" moment. Moreso if there's no Superman around to deal with him. Zod's a pretty big deal too, even if Man of Steel shat the bed.
It's literally just exposure. That's it. Casuals keep getting fed Lex, Zod, and even Doomsday repeatedly through movies and that's all they know.
Parasite is just boring. The only good parasite story is that when we come to TV host and feeds off attention from the bronze age.
You lack imagination
No he's just a shitty superman villian. If he was against a team he be kind of interesting. Then again amazo already exists
Everything you said reeks of power level autism
I just think it'd be cool if he mixed and matched powers.
Parasite on his own hard counters the Flash, since his gimmick is energy absorption and speed is another type of kinetic energy.
The best Parasite story is the cartoon tie-in by Mark Millar where he steals Mister Mxyzptlk's powers and shows how dangerous Mxyzptlk could be if he wanted to be more than just a nuisance.
It takes the twist ending of "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow" but makes an entire story out of it. There would be later stories with similar premises like "Emperor Joker" and Grant Morrison's evil imp Vyndktvx, but this was a very efficient done-in-one that had a lot fewer plot holes.
Metallo, on the other hand, is the A-list Superman villain who actually has no good stories.
>Metallo, on the other hand, is the A-list Superman villain who actually has no good stories.
PKJ has said that he intends to reinvent Metallo similarly to how he did Mongul so hopefully something good comes from that.
Even the "true" brainiac is just a probe to the God Machine Brainiac from Convergence.
What about The brainiac from futures end?
Silver Age Metallo's debut is pretty good, pretty dark for the same issue that also introduced Supergirl. The recent arc where he tried to redeem himself was also good, but wildly out of character.
But yeah, other than that, there's not much else. I pity anyone who ever tries to put together a Metallo-themed collection.
It's pretty basic but I liked how the animated series had Henshaw go a bit crazy because he couldn't feel anything, he couldn't enjoy a meal or feel any coldness or warmth, you could do more with that idea.
I liked kaiju parasite
this was a fun take on parasite. he's a cool looking villain there's only so much you can do with him I guess thats why he's not as popular
parasite and livewire are best combo.
Also prankester
You know who should be used more? Terra Man
Terra Man is great but they should “sci fi” up his design a bit (like give him a metal arm or soemthing)
But a old west cowboy who is kidnapped by aliens and become a super criminal is a fun concept
And being basically a criminal with sci fi weapons who just wants to steal is a good enough premise to generate stories
>he’s planing on holding up a train…but it’s a space train
Surprised he’s not used more. A writer just has to rip off a western, put a sci fi twist in it and then use Superman as the hero
Batman
>buff elon musk punching superpowered villains
>has to use creativity to defeat foes
Superman
>illegal immigrant with nigh invulnerability punching random people
>has to hope foes dont have the very rare kryptonite that is as easy to get as street drugs
>has to use creativity to defeat foes
Name ten Batman stories that don't end up with him punching out the villain
Why are you so obsessed with Superman that you keep making these threads?
It’s genuinely fascinating to see OP’s never ending autism about Superman. Every day there’s a new thread and this has been going on for YEARS at this point. Not sure if he hates Superman or loves Superman and knows the best way to keep a thread rolling is to bait morons on Cinemaphile
Atleast we get to talk about villains.
>It's another Lex scheme.
>It's another Zod broke out of the Phantom Zone again.
>It's another Doomsday is back.
>It's another Brainiac has returned, but totally different this time I swear.
>Bizarro is always welcome.
That being said, it's not like his new villains have been great.
>It's not Zod, it's Broly, The Legendar--I mean it's H'el.
>It's RAGU ZULA, the terror who ACKSHULLY destroyed Krypton.
>It's Rao, the ACKSHUL God that Kryptonians worship.
I would say Mr.Myxsptlk, Metallo and Bizarro are iconic too, they just don't get enough screentime.
>Control f
>zero results for Solaris
C'mon guys don't tell me an evil sun doesn't sound cool