X-Men Clone Conspiracy

So when are we getting the major storylines about the X-men clones?

https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Resurrection_Protocols

In Spider-Man Clone Conspiracy it was a huge deal that Ben Reilly created around 20 clones of deceased Spider-Man characters. In the Krakoa era all of the above mutant characters (and a few non-mutants) have died and been replaced by clones with implanted memories. So when will this get adressed in-universe? The X-men books pretend as if it's "resurrection" but it's no different than when the Jackal does it, the X-Men just do it in a much more complex and redundant way.

So... what will happen in this storyline and how will they resolve it? It seems Krakoan cloning will still be a thing in the relaunch so this will only continue getting more confusing and complex by the year. A single outbreak of clone degradation virus (as seen in various Spider-Man stories) could wipe out a large chunk of the named X-Men characters.

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  1. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    They're not going to, anon. I'm sorry. They've already dismissed every clone theory in interviews, and even resorted to making an entire dimension known as the Waiting Room solely to squash the idea that the cloned bodies don't have the original souls along with other constant 'reminders' that these are the originals.

    I'm sorry, bro. The X-men writers legitimately give less of a shit than even their haters about the myriad interesting story implications from the rather perspective-turning changes to the X-men and mutants as a whole, from how the different religious perspectives would react to this blatant disregard for death and its consequences to how the mutants that die would feel more and more disconnected from their own selves once they comprehend they're just records of people being sleeved into new bodies like 3D printers. They only wanted their mutant sex island and nothing else. That's legitimately all there is to it, and all we'll ever get because writers no longer give a shit.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      The Krakoa books themselves literally show these are copies. Otherwise the Beast and Talon/X-23 storylines are impossible. Story evidence > shit people say in interviews.

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Oh, I know. The moment where Quentin revealed his 'hidden' closet of empty headed bodysleeves all laying down like a pile of unwashed fursuits immediately made me question why none of the other X-Force members immediately booted the freak in total disgust. But I'm putting that discrepancy down to why a lot of shit in the Krakoa era doesn't line up logically with itself after you've looked at it closer; The writers are dogshit and don't coordinate with each other.

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          I know any character could be someone's favorite and you shouldn't make damaging changes without serious considerations about future use of the character, but I'd reveal Quire as a serial rapist. Everything about him screams he doesn't give a shit about consent and wouldn't take no for an answer.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      this is true

      it's long established for the X-Men that clones are the originals in every way, whether they're Sinister's clones of the Marauders or Sinister's clones of Jean Grey and Cyclops that he filled cities with just to frick them, or Jean Grey's clone Maddie Pryor who was also Jean Grey via the Phoenix Force and was legally and personally responsible for a planetary genocide

      they are not like the clones of ordinary mortals like Spider-Man, who trouble themselves with responsibility, because they have a waiting room where they can expect to be reborn from

      do you hear yourself anon

      do you hear how tedious and powerwank it all sounds

      anyway next year when they're looking for pitches to do with the X-Men, Clone Saga it is

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >They're not going to, anon. I'm sorry. They've already dismissed every clone theory in interviews, and even resorted to making an entire dimension known as the Waiting Room solely to squash the idea that the cloned bodies don't have the original souls along with other constant 'reminders' that these are the originals.
      But how does that make sense when X-23 and clone X-23 were both running around? Are they both somehow the same person? The reality is Hickman, stupid autistic hack that he is, came up with an idea that he thought was some brilliant new take on mandatory resurrections for cape characters when anyone who's not a giant fricking idiot (so anyone who's not a Hickman dickrider) can tell it's just clones.

  2. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >A single outbreak of clone degradation virus (as seen in various Spider-Man stories) could wipe out a large chunk of the named X-Men characters.
    This is why Kang doesn't bother with mutants. They all die and in the future there are no mutants. They fricked themselves royally.

  3. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >So... what will happen in this storyline and how will they resolve it? It seems Krakoan cloning will still be a thing in the relaunch so this will only continue getting more confusing and complex by the year. A single outbreak of clone degradation virus (as seen in various Spider-Man stories) could wipe out a large chunk of the named X-Men characters.
    Shitty writers like Slott are ignored by the rest.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >Shitty writers like Slott are ignored by the rest.
      NTA but clone degeneration has been part of Marvel clone lore since literally the beginning. There's no way they'd have X-men catch it though since they tried super hard to explain this is extra special superduper cloning

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Slott is a better writer than everyone had a Krakoa series combined.

  4. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    They depressing thing is that clearly some of the Krakoa writers actually card about this shit. Ewing tried SO HARD to actually retcon things in so the X-Men don't look like a bunch of suicidal idiots. But at the same time other writers do things like the Talon arc which actively shows that YES THESE ARE COPIES. It's fricked. It's so deeply fricked that I don't think it can actually be resolved because writers kept offering up new explanations and attempts to "fix" it constantly and at the same time other writers put a big sign on the fact that it's just copying people.

    God this fricking 5-year arc was such a disaster

  5. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Didn't they use Magick or some other magic mutant to ensure there souls end up in the clone body so that it's the original original and bypass the who am I shit?

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      even then went out the window with two X-23s and two Beasts running around

  6. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >Ex-marauders all realise that dead is dead, even if you get cloned back to life
    >Way of X points out that backups are a fallible resurrection system, as you are essentially erasing up to 24 hours of the life lived when you're resurrected
    >Said book also teases the idea that death means nothing to these people now and that that is a very bad thing
    >None of this ever goes anywhere
    It'd be one thing to ignore the questions, but to ask them yourself THEN ignore them is insanity

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Yeah Way of X specifically points out that people "come back" without all their memories because Cerebro isn't constantly making new backups. So it's very much saying that dead is dead, meaning those X-kids who committed suicide in the Crucible never got their powers back, they just died and got replaced.

      Which is so intensely fricked up it's hard to believe Marvel would even okay it. Honestly I don't even know how Hickman got this past editorial in the first place since Marvel had been running only "cloning is bad" storylines since forever. Hell Clone Conspiracy was garbage but it was literally just 2 years before HoxPoX and said "cloning is awful and a villain thing"

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Way of X pussied out on every single question it asked
        >The younger mutants no longer have any regard for their own lives
        >Just how true is our resurrection
        >Maybe telling a bunch of people that don't want to be parents to have copious amounts of unprotected sex was a bad idea

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          So they just ignored all of this in other titles too? Did Nightcrawler ever talk to Pixie about her committing suicide? Nightcrawler is a catholic (or was) so I figure he'd be traumatized to hell by that

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Nightcrawler tried to cope with what he saw, both with watching children being beaten to death by Apocalypse and watching Pixie get her head shotgunned off, by making up an entire new "religion" that wasn't so much a religion as it was a hippie "everything you do is special and magical because it's mutant" philosophy. It went nowhere, and probably actually made things worse since the few tenets we got to read of it only encouraged living up your hedonistic tendencies and self-satisfaction and to give even less thought in regards to the future outside of what's good for the mutant race. It says something that Nightcrawler immediately abandoned 'The Spark' the precise moment Krakoa fell and he started pretending to be Spider-Man.

            • 4 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              No I mean I read Way of X, but was it seriously never addressed anywhere else?

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            No I mean I read Way of X, but was it seriously never addressed anywhere else?

            of fricking course not! the writers only use nightcrawler to APPEAR moral. but when the chips are down, nightcrawler is then conversely used to just support whatever bullshit is going on at a given time to tow the line and maintain the status quo instead. nightcrawler is used to front morality but it's just a facade by writers to get you to agree with what they're doing with the characters

            years ago nightcrawler vowed to confront cyclops about uncanny x-force. then nightcrawler conveniently died before that could happen. then in uncanny 600 bendis uses nightcrawler and the x-men to dogpile on beast, then after rightclops and magneto lead to fascist ethnostate krakoa, nightcrawler gives cyclops a hug after all that bullshit as if cyclops had no hand in getting the mutants to that point

            • 4 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              I fricking hate modern comic writers so much it's unreal

  7. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >A single outbreak of clone degradation virus (as seen in various Spider-Man stories) could wipe out a large chunk of the named X-Men characters.
    You mean the Carrion virus that was only contained to the New U clones because of the flawed cloning process?

  8. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >muties
    >consequences for their actions
    Pick one and only one. Their status quo-enforcing genocide is always proven to never ever be THEIR fault and it'll get undone anyway, so that doesn't count either.

  9. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >Comics have already stated that they aren't clones and they are resurrections
    >Patients go into a hysteria with denial of reality
    Another symptom caused by the KDS....

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Thing is, frog anon, everything the X-men did with this resurrection stuff was already accomplished by dudes like Mr. Sinister and The Jackal decades ago, just with extra steps and feigning ignorance to the idea that this attempt to bring people back from the dead hasn't been tried before. Hell, The Red Room was retconned to be cloning people with near-perfect recreations of their memories for decades, and even then it's arguable that the process for making a Life Model Decoy is essentially the same as an X-men "resurrection" but from a roboticist perspective. This shit legitimately isn't new at all, it is quite literally cloning with far more overcomplicated steps to make it look more impressive than it is.

      Hell, they even did the introspection of how one would feel in regards to the question of "what would you do if you were presented with the possibility you aren't the original" far better decades ago too.

      No I mean I read Way of X, but was it seriously never addressed anywhere else?

      Nope. Nightcrawler's trauma was played out in the books meant as a sequel to Way of X, but otherwise he never pretends he gave a shit.

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Yeah this sort of cloning has been used since the 70s at Marvel. It's just that it's always been depicted as a very bad and shitty thing that only villains do. Arnim Zola cloning dead characters is always a bad thing. Jackal cloning dead characters is a bad thing. The Red Room story you mentioned ended with Black Widow destroying the cloning facility and killing the guy who did the memory implants because it's a Bad Thing.

        And then Krakoa comes around (less than 1 year after the Black Widow story lol)

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >Nope. Nightcrawler's trauma was played out in the books meant as a sequel to Way of X, but otherwise he never pretends he gave a shit.
        I wonder if Spurrier had a sequel planned that was canned. Was way of X his final X-title during the era?

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          He followed up Way of X with effectively two sequels, Legion of X where Nightcrawler basically forms an inquisition force to police the X-men, and Uncanny Spider-Man which takes place after the Fall of X event and has Nightcrawler cosplaying as Spider-Man and having fun in New York as a way to cope with being mind-controlled to attack the leaders of the world as well as watching Krakoa fall to pieces. Spurrier had all the time he wanted to explore this, he just stopped in favor of exploring Nightcrawler's changing perspective on what's right/important in a rather alienating phase of the X-men's existence.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Nta but how fricking moronic. Off the top of my head, Nightcrawler, Gambit, (iirc) Rogue and Cyclops are all some flavor of Christian. Exploring their beliefs and having them draw a line in the sand on what they think is right or wrong from a religious perspective would have made for a fantastic story that let them all present different opinions on where someone should stop believing in every line Krakoa sells. I really don't get went they decided to frick with Nightcrawler's faith like that. I'm not even Catholic, I just appreciate characters like him and Daredevil that have it as part of their life experiences, it fleshes them out more

            • 4 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              He followed up Way of X with effectively two sequels, Legion of X where Nightcrawler basically forms an inquisition force to police the X-men, and Uncanny Spider-Man which takes place after the Fall of X event and has Nightcrawler cosplaying as Spider-Man and having fun in New York as a way to cope with being mind-controlled to attack the leaders of the world as well as watching Krakoa fall to pieces. Spurrier had all the time he wanted to explore this, he just stopped in favor of exploring Nightcrawler's changing perspective on what's right/important in a rather alienating phase of the X-men's existence.

              Krakoa established early on that human religion was not accepted on Krakoa. So essentially all those characters had to forsake their human beliefs for the secular/atheist Krakoan system with Resurrection, the Crucible etc. Then later Kurt established what was essentially a state-run religion decided by the same people who ruled Krakoa anyway. So there was never any conflict because all those characters just gave up being religious, which I'm sure is Hickman's wet dream.

              Also Kamala is supposed to be a traditional muslim and islam has actively decried human cloning so her living in a clone body now must be real fun. She was also resurrected without her consent, which used to be a rule on Krakoa but has been broken so many times.

            • 4 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              Considering Hickman decided to have Kurt's reaction to watching a millennia old tyrant beat a child to death in front of thousands of cheering bloodthirsty mutants and become indoctrinated into a cultish mindset was to go "I'm going to start a mutant religion", let's just say that everyone was rather out of character and leave it at that.

              [...]
              Krakoa established early on that human religion was not accepted on Krakoa. So essentially all those characters had to forsake their human beliefs for the secular/atheist Krakoan system with Resurrection, the Crucible etc. Then later Kurt established what was essentially a state-run religion decided by the same people who ruled Krakoa anyway. So there was never any conflict because all those characters just gave up being religious, which I'm sure is Hickman's wet dream.

              Also Kamala is supposed to be a traditional muslim and islam has actively decried human cloning so her living in a clone body now must be real fun. She was also resurrected without her consent, which used to be a rule on Krakoa but has been broken so many times.

              >So essentially all those characters had to forsake their human beliefs
              That's like how Mr. Sinister swore he was going to work with Krakoa, and everything afterwards was the equivalent of "Whoops, had my fingers crossed!" It's all plot contrivance, and the idea that Nightcrawler aka a dude who we have visual proof of being good enough to get into bonafide Heaven would ever just give up on his Catholicism is patently absurd beyond belief.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Xavier wanting a mutant religion that ultimately answered to the Quiet Council is perfectly in line with ethnostate operations. It's just a shame it was never exposed as being an butthole thing

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                They should have just put Exodus on that task then, cause the dude was literally writing his own version of the bible the past year or so. Dude practically was walking around with his tights thoroughly jizzed outright living through a mutant version of Exodus 15

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Wasn't he in charge?

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Yep. Dude was spending all his time inbetween all the politicking of the Quiet Council and glorying in his vision of a real mutant ethnostate coming together to indoctrinate children around the campfire telling horror stories about "The Pretender" aka Wanda Maximoff within earshot of Magneto. Dude was never happier.

  10. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Weird I was just thinking about something regarding this the other day.

    They could have so easily just dodged all of this debate and the weird retcons and different writers making up different versions of it by simplifying the whole thing down considerably. Just instead of weird shit with new bodies and soul/memory implantation have exactly two mutants: Proteus and Tempus. All you had to do was say that those two collaborate to pull each X-Man out of time exactly at the moment they would die. We know Tempus can do true time travel without generating divergent timelines, so all she needs is a boost to do it. That would sidestep basically every concern about the resurrection protocols and also avoid a bunch of dumb questions that arise such as the clone bodies also getting all the implants and tattoos and stuff anyway, so it's just magic anyway.

    Of course with this kind of method you would not be able to do stories like the one about Talon or Orchis making drones out of Wolverine bodies but like does anybody actually like those stories? Losing those would be perfectly fine by me.

    Not really related to OP, sorry, but I don't wanna create another thread for a weird headcanon idea that only appeals to me.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      So, the Exiles route? Because that's how they explained how they were able to reuse certain characters that explicitly died on-screen outside of the obvious "alternate self" one, they just dragged the originals out of their death flag timeline position and just kept on keeping on.

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Yes, exactly. That's actually where I got the idea. Then I remembered that Tempus can actually pull people from the same timeline as established in Bendis' run and started thinking about it. I think she'd need somebody like Proteus to amplify/assist her in pinpointing the exact right spot in the timeline, but it's not really something too far from what she can already do.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      That actually makes sense and is a humane and non-disturbing option. Thus they would never do it.

  11. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >In Spider-Man Clone Conspiracy it was a huge deal that Ben Reilly created around 20 clones of deceased Spider-Man characters.
    It was a huge deal because the New U cloning process was flawed you dingus, they straight up explain this in the comic
    >A single outbreak of clone degradation virus (as seen in various Spider-Man stories) could wipe out a large chunk of the named X-Men characters.
    That's not how the Carrion Virus works at all

  12. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    So why exactly can the Five not resurrect people now? Has it been stated explicitly?

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Hope is stuck in heaven and the other four are on earth.

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        That's literally a non-issue.

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          It does render all the "but muh heckin mutant genercidoerinos" whines 100% moot in the future because they have a literal backup dimension full of ugly ass mutants nobody cares about.

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Yeah, I mean I don't care about those genocide storylines anyway so I don't care about those. I just want the fricking cloning to either stop or be fully talked about in-universe for how fricked-up it is.

            • 4 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              They're never going to admit that the X-men really crossed a lot of ethical lines that their past selves would recoil at, so I have a feeling they're not going to continue with their cloning. They might have discussed finding substitutes for "The Five" if one of them died, but it's pretty obvious that they have nowhere near the time nor resources to just devote themselves to pumping out bodies en masse like they did on Krakoa.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Hope is stuck in heaven and the other four are on earth.

                Wasn't the actual physical place of Krakoa important to the process? Like I seem to recall that each new body was made up from Krakoa's living essence. But then the island is still there, so they could just go back.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                I doubt Krakoa would allow them to resettle on it, given that it's a living thinking being and the last time it let the mutants live there with rules it nearly got poisoned to death. Multiple times, iirc.

  13. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Will you homosexuals stop making shit up to be upset about? This has literally all been explained and Word of God stated.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous
  14. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >The X-men books pretend as if it's "resurrection" but it's no different than when the Jackal does it, the X-Men just do it in a much more complex and redundant way.
    Krakoa and the Jackel basically did the same thing, only Jackel's went even further to getting memories from corpses so there's no lost continuity.

    And in Marvel if the cloning is good enough, it does count as a real resurrection. Dr. Strange explicitly confirmed that the Lizard's son, who got brought back in clone conspiracy, was the real deal with the same soul and all.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >Jackel's went even further to getting memories from corpses so there's no lost continuity.
      I understand that's a lot more impressive, but that's a hell of a lot more traumatic to the clone rather than the X-Men's "choose a restoration point" kind of bullshit.

  15. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Good enough cloning = Ressurection.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Strange literally says he doesn't understand why so this is clearly something that happened DESPITE it being a cloning thing. If not, he would have been like "Oh yeah that happens with clones". Context is important, anon.

  16. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    STOP MAKING THIS FRICKING THREAD

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      CBR and r/X-Men are that way if you need a hugbox!

  17. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Marvel has been running for so long that none of the characters are the originals anymore.

  18. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    All could had been avoided if they used some necromancy or asspulled some mutant with necromantic powers.
    >yes, they are clones bodies, but our resident necromancers here pulls their souls back before they depart this plane
    Broblem solved but instead they went with the memory upload and implant that basically turn all dead mutants into gholas, clones with implanted/genetic memories up to their time of death/last upload.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      they could have done it in a million ways including just resurrecting them "normally" but hickman is a dumb hack who thinks this is a cool transhuman thing

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Ever see the film The 6th Day? Lousy action film with a memory upload cloning premise but there is a fantastic moment towards the end where the villain, dying of a gunshot wound, does a memory upload and activates a clone while he's still alive. The clone proceeds to ignore his dying predecessor except to steal his clothes, because he's a complete sociopath, while the original's expression is him realizing that he's not immortal and is going to die while a copy of him goes on.

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          SOMA kinda deals with this issue as well I'm pretty sure

  19. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >So... what will happen in this storyline and how will they resolve it?

    Same old same old. They´ll all die for shock value (which is meaningless at this point) and then they´ll be brought back (like they always are) by abusing time travel or from other universes/ timelines or through the phoenix force or by rebooting the universe, or maybe they´ll just kill Moira as many times as it takes (yes, she supposedly has a limit of reboots but we all know that´s bullshit). The truth is death means precious little here. It´s nothing more than a plot dependent state of being.

    Clones are the same. If at any point they need the original ones they can bring them up and dispose of the clones pretty easily. Like, remember secret invasion?

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >kill Moira as many times as it takes (yes, she supposedly has a limit of reboots but we all know that´s bullshit).
      Apparently the Moira that's left is the last one, and she's trying to become a god now. Obviously they can just fudge that but hey.

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Yes, that´s what Destiny said but come on, we all know how these things work, if a plot needs to reboot her powers and give her 10 more lives it will happen.

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Mutant Moira sucks. They should have let the poor woman rest in peace and made this character an OC.

  20. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    For any of you moronic homosexuals that still don't understand the situation
    >Body is cloned
    >Memories implanted based on a backup
    >Soul gets drawn to the body because it's an open vessel with the right body and most of the memories

    Yes they are revived and no their memories aren't perfectly intact because the process is flawed. Even the Clone Conspiracy survivors like the Connors family were later confirmed to be the genuine article because their souls were drawn to the new bodies.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      So... the soul is spliced in case of multiple clones of the same person running around at the same time? It doesn't make sense. Being revived is the death body coming back to life, not some blank slate clone with implanted memories. The cloning process is such a cloning process that they could make krakoa clones of living people or multiple clones of dead people and they simply put safeguards such confirming the death or waiting a time frame of a mutant going off the radar to exactly avoid cloning living people.

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        We already know how cloning when alive works thanks to characters like Ben or the Magneto clone. No soul to get sucked back in then it's a new person with their own soul.

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        In the Talon/X-23 case they explicitly say that Talon is the ORIGINAL Laura. This would literally be impossible if it wasn't a metaphysical resurrection, then they'd just be two forks of the same being.

        However that story has a major flaw in it in that the Five for some reason don't know that original Laura is dead when they seem to be sure in all other cases. It's a weird situation but you can chalk it up to the Vault fricking things up.

  21. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Marvel in the 80s
    >you know what? we need more jean greys!

    Marvel in the 90s
    >hey i know, let's do spider-man clones!
    >it sucks

    Marvel 10+ years later:
    >hey i know, let's make more superflous spider man characters!
    >it sucks but attracts normies and quality diminishes greatly

    marvel 15+ years later:
    >hey i know! let's have the x-men just be resurrected with no consequences and no stakes or tension!
    >ooh! ooh! we can cover up our shit writing concerning beast by cutting corners yet again by making beast a clone!
    >we must never reboot to before bendis, double down!

  22. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    One thing that I find funny that was never addressed was the potential implications of the X-men's personalities being the way they are because their abuse of their revival technology was causing their souls to degrade. Since that's been kind of a thing for a lot of Marvel's history, that heroes that are forcibly brought back from the dead have a chance of coming back imperfectly or with a lot of extra baggage due to how traumatic the process of circumventing death is, ESPECIALLY with clones and guys who suffer repeated deaths. Frankly, with the fact Orchis has like at least twelve Wolverine skeletons in addition to the times Beast killed him to put together his clone squad and his previous deaths, I'm surprised it's not a plot point that Logan's soul is a barely-held together husk of itself

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      I would honestly have liked to see a bit more humanizing of the entire resurrection idea. Like you never see any of the characters deal with trauma. I realize it's not very heroic, but given how fricking horrific some of the deaths in this era are, I would think if this was true resurrection then the character would come back screaming their fricking head off. Knowing you can respawn won't kill your fight or flight instinct, won't kill your panic response and won't remove the fact that it fricking hurts like mad to be pulped by a sentinel.

      I do understand why they won't go this dark but it does kind of devalue the idea for me because it becomes so easy and guilt-free.

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        I totally agree, but a lot of shit involved in Krakoa is just casually waved off when you would think it would cause far more of a volatile reaction, so I guess a mass psychic blanketing effect that basically forces characters to not ask questions is about the only thing that would explain the general apathy of the era

        this is true

        it's long established for the X-Men that clones are the originals in every way, whether they're Sinister's clones of the Marauders or Sinister's clones of Jean Grey and Cyclops that he filled cities with just to frick them, or Jean Grey's clone Maddie Pryor who was also Jean Grey via the Phoenix Force and was legally and personally responsible for a planetary genocide

        they are not like the clones of ordinary mortals like Spider-Man, who trouble themselves with responsibility, because they have a waiting room where they can expect to be reborn from

        do you hear yourself anon

        do you hear how tedious and powerwank it all sounds

        anyway next year when they're looking for pitches to do with the X-Men, Clone Saga it is

        At this point, they might as well. Just have clones of all the X-men from different eras punching the shit out of each other to determine which one is the "real one" sounds more stupid-entertaining than the current shit going down.

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >I totally agree, but a lot of shit involved in Krakoa is just casually waved off when you would think it would cause far more of a volatile reaction, so I guess a mass psychic blanketing effect that basically forces characters to not ask questions is about the only thing that would explain the general apathy of the era
          Yeah there's a lot of that. Some writers have tried to make it a more personal era but most of the titles were definitely more into the big events and big movements. I will say Ewing and Gillen have tried their absolute best to recover some of the worst parts of it, even if some things are just fricked. Like the supposedly heroic X-men allowing the Crucible is such a terrible idea and needs some kind of mindrape explanation to cover it.

          Another thing that I would have liked to see more of is more near-misses. Like yeah you can respawn but it would be better if not every fight was lethal just because this is the current status quo. Like there are so many times when a whole team just gets wiped out and not because they're being suicidal like in for example AXE. No they just get teamkilled, every single person. And that makes me wonder why this never happened until resurrection was available. Why were sentinels never able to just wipe out the X-Men back when they couldn't resurrect? Escalation of technology? Not really something that's happened, and during Fall of X we suddenly see the X-Men wipe the fricking floor with Orchis with not a single big name character dying because now the protocols are offline. That kinda thing is so obviously writing around a plot device that it bothers me.

          Plus, I would have liked to see a bunch of characters just not need Krakoa resurrection. Logan's previous lore was that he could regenerate from his skeleton, so he should have just regrown instead of leaving bodies for Orchis. Apocalypse's whole thing is regrowing, so why does he suddenly need Krakoa respawning? Etc. There's so many weird holes .

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            I find the irony of the resurrection protocols being that I remember people praising them for essentially bringing an end to the constant use of death as a means to enhance the drama and stakes of the X-men's struggles due to how much writers loved to abuse it in the preceding years. And yet during the Krakoa era, the sheer amount of deaths that are killed and casually dismissed was far higher than in the eras beforehand, and I don't mean just the team wipes, I'm including that time Onslaught's power essentially turned a whole bar's worth of mutants into bones and dust. Shit was just far more brutal than the years before it, and yet now at their lowest point the X-men don't ever give a shit about the possibility of them dying because narratively speaking nobody would be stupid enough to remove them now that they can't be brought back with a snap of their fingers. Shit's ridiculous and pathetic.

            • 4 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              That's exactly what I mean. Why were the X-Men villains so ineffective and bad for 50 years worth of comics and then suddenly started being able to casually murder characters at will the moment Krakoa came along? Why were there suddenly so many cases of entire hero teams being wiped out? Why did characters like Apocalypse and Selene suddenly be in need of a technology that was just developed after they survived for millennia before? For me that creates a huge disconnect and it'll become an even wider gulf if the Brevoort era goes back to low lethality.

              And as I said, it's so fricking dumb that Orchis killed so many of them when the protocols were up and now can't kill a single one when using their FULL FORCES in Fall of X... because the protocols are down.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Honestly, for what it's worth, I think it became very apparent that neither Apocalypse nor Selene actually NEEDED Krakoa in the slightest, and that they were there because the X-men were willing to hand them authority and power on a silver platter. Frankly, most of the villains that went to Krakoa didn't need the X-men, and it was very clear even from the outset that the X-men and the developing Quiet Council did not buy their loyalty so much as give them everything they ever asked for in the vague hopes that it'll keep them from acting out. Hell, given by how the narrative of Inferno built it up, Orchis wasn't any more lethal or effective than any of the previous villains. Nimrod was just lacking in the stereotypical level of comic book incompetence compared to his peers.

                That's the answer I could conclude from this. All the shit about mutants needing to stick together because their foes were that deadly was in effect a lie. The X-men just needed the level of plot armor that the villains had which kept them from permanently fricking off in order to survive until the Brevoort era, and to basically outlast Nimrod's slowly dwindling intelligence levels until he finally dropped below a certain IQ point to actually be a viable threat to the X-men anymore. And by that, I mean the point where he was incapacitated by Krakoa hocking a sticky loogie at him. That was pretty much the point of no return.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                What I meant is that it was ridiculously plot convenient that Selene needed a clone body to survive suddenly. I don't even remember what method was used to kill her but it was that arc about the Council members being assassinated. She should have shrugged that off, but just because the protocols existed at that precise point, she couldn't. That's what I mean about plot convenience.

                I would have found the whole resurrection gimmick more palatable if it was treated as a really harrowing ordeal and they still tried their best NOT to die and to help their wounded friends with the protocols as an absolute last resort. It wouldn't have been perfect but it would have made it less dumb.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Frankly, if you put any restrictions on the resurrection gimmick it'd be more palatable, since actual consequences for dying while still keeping permanent death off the table doesn't diminish either. Like for example, if there was a time limit to how soon they could bring back mutants that were recently killed, or if they needed to wait until Cerebro's mind backups finished updating to bring them back which would take longer for those with a lot more memories and lifespan to finish updating. Absolutely anything besides the handwavey bullcrap that amounted to nothing in the end.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                There was supposedly the resurrection queue but that amounted to "the most popular characters get brought back instantly" so... yeah. They also should never have done the Cerebro backup thing since that's the reason why people still debate the "true" resurrection. Because it SOUNDS awful.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                The Cerebro backup thing makes sense in context, but it along with the overall idea of resurrection was basically just over-complicating the process for the sake of looking smart over being coherent. Like let's be real, there's already several X-men characters that can revive people from the dead or just bring back their ghosts, they could have just partnered one of them with say Elixir or Proteus or some newly discovered mutant to change them from unliving to living that way as well. Everything in-between was fluff to make shit feel super impressive. The entire era was just wanking off to its own self-importance, in the end, a lot of people were just all too happy to join in the circlejerk to even consider any of it was pointless or flawed.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                As I said before, the protocols just devolved into literal magic anyway. They talk so much about the process, about how each of the Five contributes a unique power, but what's the point? They could have just had Proteus do it by warping reality to reverse the character's death. Imposing limits on him was just a plot device anyway. You're already doing shit like creating clones with cosmetic differences, cybernetic implants and other shit. That's no longer cloning, that's magic or reality manipulation, so the fact Chuck had everyone's DNA is already pointless at that point. You say you're dragging the soul back to the new body, so that makes the Cerebro backup thing pointless, because we know from other Marvel resurrections that you just need to put the soul back in and the person is fine. See where I'm going with with this? It was already just magic.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Makes me wonder why they didn't just drag in Wanda back for this at the start, even considering she was persona non grata among the fandom for Bendis making her go crazy. Not like it's even remotely the first or even second time they had her try to clean up the mess that she was forced to make after House of M with "no more mutants", anyways.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Uncertain. It's possible Hickman wasn't allowed use of her when he planned out Krakoa since she should be under the aegis of the Avengers office.

                We also know that Trial of Magneto was weird fricking editorial storyline. That story was pitched as a generic "X-Factor investigates murders on Krakoa" procedural story. Editorial saw that pitch, decided it would be a great storyline for an event, and had Leah Williams get to rewrite it was an event comic with Wanda as the "murder" victim. Editorial also kindly canceled her ongoing series so she could write ToM and they went in and rewrote/gave her notes on what to write into it. So that entire story being a giant nonsensical nothing is entirely expected because Editorial kept sticking their dick into it.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                That explains so damn much. Still hope this means it's the last of the X-men bothering with Scarlet Witch for at least a decade, considering they've got their own bullshit to clean up as it is.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                As long as Orlando keeps getting to write her she will always be Magneto's daughter
                She will never be free

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                If you stop and think about it, you only needed Proteus and Tempus to carry out the resurrections, and Proteus is interchangeable for any reality warper and Tempus could be replaced with a jury-rigged time machine.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                see

                Weird I was just thinking about something regarding this the other day.

                They could have so easily just dodged all of this debate and the weird retcons and different writers making up different versions of it by simplifying the whole thing down considerably. Just instead of weird shit with new bodies and soul/memory implantation have exactly two mutants: Proteus and Tempus. All you had to do was say that those two collaborate to pull each X-Man out of time exactly at the moment they would die. We know Tempus can do true time travel without generating divergent timelines, so all she needs is a boost to do it. That would sidestep basically every concern about the resurrection protocols and also avoid a bunch of dumb questions that arise such as the clone bodies also getting all the implants and tattoos and stuff anyway, so it's just magic anyway.

                Of course with this kind of method you would not be able to do stories like the one about Talon or Orchis making drones out of Wolverine bodies but like does anybody actually like those stories? Losing those would be perfectly fine by me.

                Not really related to OP, sorry, but I don't wanna create another thread for a weird headcanon idea that only appeals to me.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                What also could have been interesting would be if more faithful souls had a harder time returning because they were reluctant to leave paradise, to explain why Krakoa tried to have a mandated secular religion, to just add more fuel to the fire on drama.
                Frick was Nightcrawler wasted potential

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Ewing did nothing but jack off to Storm.

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          The perfect explanation is Xavier used telepathy to force everyone on board, and since he controlled the psychic backups could easily edit out opposition.

  23. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    they can easily handwave the issue through Hope messiah bullshit

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