X-Men: The Five

I'm trying to catch up on the status quo for the X-books and have been reading about the Five and their resurrections. I've only read synopses of events so far; is this as fricked up as I think it is? They're not resurrecting dead mutants, they're creating new bodies and grafting prerecorded brain patterns onto them. None of the mutants who have been resurrected are the real thing, just some facsimile thereof. Is this treated as fricked up in-universe or did Marvel not think of the implications of what they were doing?

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  1. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    It's close enough to the real thing that it's real enough

    Tony Stark, Rhodey and Black Widow have all be resurrected through similar means in recent years.
    Even Steve Rogers went through a Krakoan Egg

    Krakoan resurrection is real enough that Death commented on it and compared it to the Hulk's Green Door resurrections
    And Wanda Maximoff's Waiting Room Spell was able to create another afterlife for mutants who predated Cerebro's ability to copy and store mutant brain scans, and added millions of backups to the Queue out of all of those dead souls

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      Current Steve Rogers is a Cosmic Cube creation, the real one was killed years ago.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        current steve came out of a krakoan egg

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        Not anymore. Waid hard retconned Spencer's run so that Hydra Cap is from a parallel Earth where Steve was evil/raised by Hydra and that the Cosmic Cube basically absorbed into the real Steve Rogers into the cosmic cube because Brevoort realized people caught onto the fact that the real Steve was still brainwashed/that the Cube created a copy of Steve and wanted to bury that wholesale.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      [...]
      The soul canonically exists in Marvel. They're not returning the soul to the flesh, they're making new flesh with a new soul and forcing it to have the personality of a dead person. This is a real issue when it comes to X-23. Before Talon died in the Fall of the House of X there were two Laura Kinneys running around, one from before the real Laura went in the vault. It doesn't matter what Death says, this conclusively shows it's NOT a real resurrection, but merely a duplication. Hell, they even have a rule on not resurrecting clones to avoid this very thing.

      As far as Tony goes, if you're referring to him getting his mind restored from a pre-Civil War backup, that's basically the same as a memory loss patient regaining their memories. It's still Tony's soul.

      Cosmic beings also do not give a shit about small time frickery like making copies of a person or resurrecting a person. Death is the one in charge of it all but she also subleases out sections of her universe to individual death gods like Hela, Pluto etc, and allows Skyfathers and Hell Lords to collect up souls too if they want. It usually takes something really really frickhuge to begin annoying Death to make her think about getting involved and that is like killing, resurrecting, or inventing large percentages of all life in the universe at one time. She doesn't like that. But if you are killing off a planet, cloning the population of one, or making an all new planet, she cannot give a frick.

      Cloning a few dozen people is so beneath her radar that she cannot begin to give a shit.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        Marvel also works on Rick and Morty style multiverse rules. In that there are infinite parallel universes, and infinite timeline changes based parallel universes out there on top of it.

        So there are quadrillions of quadrillions of Tony Starks that are near perfectly identical before you get around to the off ones like Dinosaur Stark, Bug Stark, or purple universe Stark, that the cosmic powers that be cannot be bothered to care if one or two are killed and replaced by a new version that is technically a different being all together. If the new clone is a brand new soul that is still 99.999999999999% Stark in every way physically and mentally, who cares. It's a literal drop in the ocean and will not change anything.

        I'm not asking the powers that be to care about Krakoan eggs, I'm asking the people directly involved to think about what they're doing. You'd think at least ONE person would go "not muh [person resurrected]" because of this. But so far no one cares.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          No one cares because Krakoa has the cure for autism.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            Yeah, well, Aquaman had that and it didn't stop Black Manta from hating him.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            If that were true Cinemaphile would have stopped reading it

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          Anyone who cares about the characters enough just isn't reading. And Marvel has done so much damage over the last couple decades, whenever (if) someone picks up again, they might just think like none in the meantime actually happened.

          Also if I recall, the -Men were transferred to clone bodies as far back as the original Brood arc.

          Marvel also works on Rick and Morty style multiverse rules. In that there are infinite parallel universes, and infinite timeline changes based parallel universes out there on top of it.

          So there are quadrillions of quadrillions of Tony Starks that are near perfectly identical before you get around to the off ones like Dinosaur Stark, Bug Stark, or purple universe Stark, that the cosmic powers that be cannot be bothered to care if one or two are killed and replaced by a new version that is technically a different being all together. If the new clone is a brand new soul that is still 99.999999999999% Stark in every way physically and mentally, who cares. It's a literal drop in the ocean and will not change anything.

          >Marvel also works on Rick and Morty style multiverse rules.
          Marvel time travel works on several different rules, or at least used to. Someone can/could legit change the past, Back To The Future style.
          Fortunately, because it makes the universe bigger and gives more leeway to change things and actually resurrect characters.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            >Marvel time travel works on several different rules, or at least used to. Someone can/could legit change the past, Back To The Future style.
            Opposite atm, actually. Generally it's extremely hard to forcibly change the past unless it's fated to occur because your actions cause branching timelines to occur. It's why Rachel Summers, Cable, and X-Man all exist despite the bad futures they come from having been negated already.

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              I think Rachel has always been from an alternate future, though? Being the daughter of the Phoenix who was already dead at the present.
              Apparently used to be the case that she was unique in all realities, but when they started treating What Ifs as other universes, that probably went kaput, too.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                She was from the Days of Future Past timeline, which explained away the fact Jean should have been dead/incapacitated by saying she retired rather than blew herself up.

                >I fricking read it
                If you had, you'd have know that "they pussied out of making the X-men's paradise not perfect and tried sanding off all the edges" thing is complete bullshit. There are several entire story arcs, both past and current, that are entirely about the ways they fricked up in Krakoa.

                This whole "Krakoa is a perfect orgy island that can do no wrong" is just a moronic Cinemaphile meme and hasn't been accurate pretty much from day one.

                Nah, it's been a thing for about 75% of the books with characters unironically praising Krakoa like mindless zombies. Only about one or two bother to say outright the idea of a mutant ethnostate was a bad idea from the start, the rest just nitpick one aspect like the prison system or child support while going super soft on the rest, or imply that it'd have been totally perf if they just excluded creeps like Xavier or Mr. Sinister from rule. And it honestly didn't help that characters like Wolverine who are cynical to the max were outright singing the praises of the mutant paradise as well.

                TL;DR It was in-universe propaganda that got away from the writers when a bunch of fans and some of the writers took it completely at face value and tried bending way over backwards to excuse or explain away shit that guys like Hickman didn't want excused.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >Characters aren't allowed to enjoy a situation that originally had almost no downsides for them because it upsets me if people enjoy something that has flaws.
                >Oh yeah you're right the characters did deal with the downsides but that doesn't count because uhhh... they dealt with individual problems instead of every issue containing a comprehensive list of everything that wasn't perfect.
                >And I'm just going to ignore all of the story arcs where they dealt with major issues or the fallout of the issues that they failed to deal with in time, because it doesn't fit my delusional narrative so it doesn't exist.
                Too much Cinemaphile gives you brain worms.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >TLDR
                Touch grass, anon.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                Rachel's timeline is one where the Phoenix Force retcon never happened and Jean was always Phoenix plus the added change that she never went Dark Phoenix after the X-Men rescued her from the Hellfire Club and that she was killed by Mastermind when he (under orders from Shadow King) blew up a nuclear reactor as an act of mutant terrorism to get the Sentinel program up and going.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            *X-Men, not -Men

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            Until Brevoort decided to be a c**t and greenlit a Karl Kessel Fantastic Four one shot that permanently changed time travel rules, the rule as established by Mark Gruenwald and ruthlessly enforced in every book, was that you can travel back in time but if you change shit, all you do is fracture the timeline in two: you can't change your past, just create a new timeline and one of two things happen: the time traveler fricking with the past is stuck in the new timeline as a time anomoly ala Rachel Summers and your future is still fricked out there in the multiverse or worse, you the time stream auto corrects and expels the time traveler back to their future timeline that now fractured so they are back in their hell-verse with nothing changed that they tried to change, meaning it was 100% for nothing.

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              None of this shit will last and someone will change it again. It's the nature of shitty comic book writing.

  2. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    How is it any different from the thousands of other dumbass capeshit resurrection methods? What actual difference does it make?

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      It's close enough to the real thing that it's real enough

      Tony Stark, Rhodey and Black Widow have all be resurrected through similar means in recent years.
      Even Steve Rogers went through a Krakoan Egg

      Krakoan resurrection is real enough that Death commented on it and compared it to the Hulk's Green Door resurrections
      And Wanda Maximoff's Waiting Room Spell was able to create another afterlife for mutants who predated Cerebro's ability to copy and store mutant brain scans, and added millions of backups to the Queue out of all of those dead souls

      The soul canonically exists in Marvel. They're not returning the soul to the flesh, they're making new flesh with a new soul and forcing it to have the personality of a dead person. This is a real issue when it comes to X-23. Before Talon died in the Fall of the House of X there were two Laura Kinneys running around, one from before the real Laura went in the vault. It doesn't matter what Death says, this conclusively shows it's NOT a real resurrection, but merely a duplication. Hell, they even have a rule on not resurrecting clones to avoid this very thing.

      As far as Tony goes, if you're referring to him getting his mind restored from a pre-Civil War backup, that's basically the same as a memory loss patient regaining their memories. It's still Tony's soul.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        Marvel also works on Rick and Morty style multiverse rules. In that there are infinite parallel universes, and infinite timeline changes based parallel universes out there on top of it.

        So there are quadrillions of quadrillions of Tony Starks that are near perfectly identical before you get around to the off ones like Dinosaur Stark, Bug Stark, or purple universe Stark, that the cosmic powers that be cannot be bothered to care if one or two are killed and replaced by a new version that is technically a different being all together. If the new clone is a brand new soul that is still 99.999999999999% Stark in every way physically and mentally, who cares. It's a literal drop in the ocean and will not change anything.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        theres also ressurected exploding boy talking to his zombie self.

        the resurrection isnt real

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        https://i.imgur.com/3FwkNMo.jpg

        I'm trying to catch up on the status quo for the X-books and have been reading about the Five and their resurrections. I've only read synopses of events so far; is this as fricked up as I think it is? They're not resurrecting dead mutants, they're creating new bodies and grafting prerecorded brain patterns onto them. None of the mutants who have been resurrected are the real thing, just some facsimile thereof. Is this treated as fricked up in-universe or did Marvel not think of the implications of what they were doing?

        They literally went off of their way to make a special mutant afterlife that the souls of mutants are drawn from when resurrection happens.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          Those just get fed into the databank to be used as brain templates.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        >As far as Tony goes, if you're referring to him getting his mind restored from a pre-Civil War backup, that's basically the same as a memory loss patient regaining their memories. It's still Tony's soul.
        No Stark literally died in CW2 and created a facsimile of himself and downloaded some of his backed up memories into the clone, that's how he came back after being a Hologram for a few months. He did the same thing to bring back Rhodey

        But the process was imperfect and he went crazy during Iron Man 2020 and started considering himself AI
        So they cloned him again using DNA from his biological parents this time

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          Well, that's terrible also. This is as bad as when Marvel tried to convince us the Peter Parker we'd been following all along was a fake and Ben Reilly was the real deal.

          Actual soul rules for rezzing characters that has pretty much always applied. If the original is dead then the soul is pulled to the body and resurrects the character else if the original is still alive or the clone is distinct enough from the original a new soul forms.

          Also Laura isn't actually a clone since she has DNA from her mother so instead she's a designer baby.

          >Actual soul rules for rezzing characters that has pretty much always applied
          Is there something I can read to verify this or is it just an implication?

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            There wasn't a twitter post of it or anything making it official, but a lot of people kind of go by the example set by Spider-Man's clones, specifically the portrayal of Ben Reilly: The Scarlet Spider #7 where Death herself confirmed that shit's a revolving door for superheroes that've been cloned where their souls are drawn back to their clone bodies, and that Ben Reilly despite being a clone of a clone is still in fact 'Ben Reilly' down to his soul, which by proxy means clones themselves have unique souls. There's been other explanations or attempts to extraploate from that, I remember a recent Dr. Strange story that posited superheroes have an easier time of coming back from the dead due to their superhero identities/symbols imbuing them with a stronger sense of self, but for the most part that's where we got the whole soul rules.

            Cause yeah, X-men doesn't really explain dick about it, and while I am very certain the writers themselves verified all of the X-men are the originals and not clones I don't think they bothered to write up how this shit worked out.

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              >There wasn't a twitter post of it or anything making it official, but a lot of people kind of go by the example set by Spider-Man's clones, specifically the portrayal of Ben Reilly: The Scarlet Spider #7 where Death herself confirmed that shit's a revolving door for superheroes that've been cloned where their souls are drawn back to their clone bodies, and that Ben Reilly despite being a clone of a clone is still in fact 'Ben Reilly' down to his soul, which by proxy means clones themselves have unique souls.
              Rather that was referring to Slott's bullshit retcon during Clone Conspiracy where Jackal (and then Ben) somehow figured out a cloning method that retrieves the soul of the dead. Ben's soul is corrupted as Jackal brought him back with clone degeneration and got him killed 27 times, so he's driven insane, breaks free, knocks out Warren, clones him a bunch and plays a prank while figuring out a way to keep degeneration at bay with pills, taking over as the Jackal with an army of Warrens. This is implied to have happened right after Clone Saga ended in 94.

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous
              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >I showed you my webshooter pls respond

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        Actual soul rules for rezzing characters that has pretty much always applied. If the original is dead then the soul is pulled to the body and resurrects the character else if the original is still alive or the clone is distinct enough from the original a new soul forms.

        Also Laura isn't actually a clone since she has DNA from her mother so instead she's a designer baby.

  3. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    The details can be handwaved away because of Proteus reality warping.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      I thought Proteus' contribution was making the eggs viable.

  4. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    >They're not resurrecting dead mutants, they're creating new bodies and grafting prerecorded brain patterns onto them.
    This again?

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >A pod creates NEW life
      Emphasis on new. It's not the same life that was taken.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >new life
      Yeah its different

  5. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    They basically didn’t care, considering that they began doing bullshit like “reviving” X-men 2099 characters into the present, aka bringing back people from the dead in alternate timelines BEFORE they were born. It’s best to just think of it as one idea with potential that everyone completely shat the bed with, like most of the ideas used for the Krakoa age.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      Imagine if they went to hell and there were five Wolverines waiting for them, one for each Logan who died and was resurrected by the Five.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        You mean ten
        Cause Orchis managed to recover ten separate adamantium skeletons to turn into their human-sized Sentinels from the numerous
        Meaning he got himself slaughtered by Nimrod a minimum of ten times

  6. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    This issue has been raised in the comics often enough that they eventually decided to just solve the issue by having Scarlet Witch create a magic "pre-heaven" called the Waiting Room where the souls of mutants go when they die. Then they can be resurrected from there without any risk of losing their soul. As recently explained, if the resurrection doesn't happen or they just get tired of waiting, they move on to "real" heaven.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      Which is one of the big things that fails about Krakoa, that they pussied out of making the X-men's paradise not perfect and tried sanding off all the edges they can without going all the way, meaning that you've got complete freedom to do whatever you want and love whoever you want on the same island where people are daily being killed in coliseums and babies are being abandoned in bushes, and the best the writers can do is just hope readers ignore it while they go on the next big rant about how horrible human capitalist society is.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        What happens to a mf when you don't read comics and rely on Cinemaphile shitposting for all your information.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          you're better for it. reading the krakoa arc is a waste of time. jubilee was given one panel that actually depicted her powers at a higher potential which should have happened years ago, and forge did a thing with caliban. that's really the only interesting things i can think of

  7. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Yes, and I don’t like how they just dropped it / hand waved it by saying oh yeah they totally have the same souls bro, just ignore the couple of places where that doesn’t make sense like the mutant zombies or Laura or the magical death realm or the x sword tournament event etc etc

  8. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Since this looks like the de facto X-Men thread, Brevoort's new newsletter just went out.

    >All right, well, that was a week, wasn’t it? As I expect (hope?) most of you already know, this past Thursday at SXSW in Austin, Texas we held a panel to announce the first little bit of our X-MEN roll-out plan. For those who may have missed it, the trailer that we debuted can be seen in all its glory here. And the reaction was everything that you might expect, with X-MEN trending nationally at #1 for the rest of the day and beyond. Response of course covers the gamut, and depending on who you speak to and where you happen to be on the internet, I’m either a genius or the devil, often for the exact same things. Which was all very much to be expected, of course. We didn’t really give out that much hard information about the books, partly because we still need to safeguard the secrets of the final couple of months of the current era and also because we’ve still got a ways to go until these comics are out there in the world where they can be read and evaluated on their own merits. But in all honesty, I was happy with the response and happy that so many people expressed an openness to what we might be doing, even if they were trepidatious about one element or another. (A lot of people seemed really concerned that Cyclops looked too young, a complaint that I don’t think we’ve often seen about a character. But don’t worry, he’s not from the past or anything, he’s regular old present day Cyclops. Living on a tropical island has wonderful rejuvenating properties.)

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >(That’s actually X-MEN artist Ryan Stegman that we’ve all been chowing down on. He lost the straw-draw for it. R.I.P.)

      >More importantly from my point of view was getting to spend a bit of time talking casually with a chunk of the new X-Men creative teams, including Jed MacKay, Gail Simone and David Marquez. Working from afar can sometimes feel a little bit distancing beyond geographically, and so it was good to connect with people directly. This was the first time that collaborators David and Gail met in person, for instance, and that can only help their collaboration to get stronger.

      >So anyway, things will get a little bit easier from here on in as far as what and how much I can talk about. And it’s a bit of a relief to have some of this material, even the tiniest bit of it, out in the world where people can hate on it for what it is rather than what they’re afraid it will be. As I’ve said before, we’re definitely not going to be able to make every person happy in all ways, but we’re going to put forward our strongest efforts to craft a line of excellent comics that people are going to want to read. So stick around if that interests you and see how we make out, eh?

      I'm on the record as saying the announcements were a bit muted, and without a hook aren't really generating much excitement, but I guess he's hinting that there may be a hook, based on how the fall ends, that they can't speak about yet.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        I'm going to basically predict that with the taglines the way they are, the X-men themselves are basically exiled from the general mutant community or at least publicly acting separate from them due to taking down Orchis who inexplicably had better PR than even Norman Osborn during his tenure as the leader of HAMMER, so the teams will basically go back to their '10's era status of Cyclops's team doing typical x-men shit while absorbing the "I'm so angry and miserable nobody likes me" energy, Wolverine's team doing normal superhero shit, and Emma's team (cause we fricking know Kate Pryde isn't the current waifu rn) absorbing the majority of the "persecuted" storylines.

        What happens to a mf when you don't read comics and rely on Cinemaphile shitposting for all your information.

        Trust me, man, I fricking read it, and there's days I wish I hadn't. I sure aren't saying they're doing that now, cause the island's been gone a year, but that was the status quo they'd left it at before Nimrod shat all over them at the third fancy ball.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          >I fricking read it
          If you had, you'd have know that "they pussied out of making the X-men's paradise not perfect and tried sanding off all the edges" thing is complete bullshit. There are several entire story arcs, both past and current, that are entirely about the ways they fricked up in Krakoa.

          This whole "Krakoa is a perfect orgy island that can do no wrong" is just a moronic Cinemaphile meme and hasn't been accurate pretty much from day one.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      I can tell simone but who are the other 3

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        Akira Yoshida in the back/middle with orange/brown shirt and glasses

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          checc'd
          which one's mackay and who're the ladies

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            Jed is the most Canadian looking one.

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              I only ask cause I thought he's here in toronto now and I want to stalk him for an autograph

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >depending on who you speak to and where you happen to be on the internet, I’m either a genius or the devil
      "The devil" is not the word anyone uses for your kind, brevoort.

  9. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    It's only fitting mutants became golems lost deep in their own asses.

  10. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Shit designs.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      i like the guy who kinda looks like a pink dr. manhattan but the rest look like shit

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        Proteus? Eh, he's not as well-designed as Manhattan.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          yeah that's why I said "kinda"

  11. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Yeah, its just cloning. And Marvel was pretending its resurrection. Thats why you can have duplicates, like with Laura.

  12. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Cloning is essentially true resurrection if the original is dead when the clone is made/awaken. This exist prior to the X-men and it's not a concept that the X-men invented. Best example of this would probably be Ben Reilly. Ben Reilly became Ben Reilly instead of Peter Parker because Peter Parker (the original) was still alive when Ben Reilly (the copy) was created. Ben Reilly was eventually resurrected from the dead via Jackal cloning him.

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