You notice improvements far greater at the start of an industry than in the middle of it. It's why once we reached Fantasia visuals, theatrical cartoons kind of stayed that way and using those techniques for decades.
I suppose you're right, Satan, it's just depressing how we seem to be "improving" in a direction that almost feels like has an end, rather than a natural evolution that strives for uncharted bests
At times it even seems like we're moving backwards
There's still a lot more styles that people can't perfect in CG yet. Disney has been trying to make the "3D that looks like 2D" look since Feast. Far From the Tree got the closest and they experimented using that tech with Wish, but it's obvious they still have a long ways to go until it's ready for a theatrical 90-min movie. There's also a combination of mediums that studios have yet to fully touch, such as CG mixed with hand-drawn elements. You've seen it in some things where people will animate fire or smoke by hand on top of 3D animation. Collage stuff like that could become popular in 5+ years.
Look at the video game industry. >1977: Pong >1987: After Burner >1997: Star Fox 64 >2007: Crisis
Every ten years there was a huge jump in technology, capability, power, graphics, and then... >2017: Wolfenstein II: The Second Colossus
Yeah it looks pretty but it's not much of a change since.
Golden age techniques went away for a number of reasons.
Look at the video game industry. >1977: Pong >1987: After Burner >1997: Star Fox 64 >2007: Crisis
Every ten years there was a huge jump in technology, capability, power, graphics, and then... >2017: Wolfenstein II: The Second Colossus
Yeah it looks pretty but it's not much of a change since.
Stop comparing early-20th century animation to video games. They are entire worlds apart. The animation industry in those days was like a handful of companies just doing whatever they could. Computers and video games always had a much bigger work force and sophisticated industry, even in the early 80's. Companies like IBM were hiring literal 200 IQ geniuses.
Most 8bit videogames were coded by three dudes in a garage, not big studios. The early days of videogames resembled some kida doing shit for Newgrounds more than that.
Yes, but even in the 80's, the computing industry was upheld by universities, and electronic manufacturers, and decades of programmers, and books, and billions of dollars. This is a far cry from people in the 1920's pointing a camera at a drawing.
why did you switch from vidya industry to computing industry?
3 months ago
Anonymous
Because game machines are computers? It's not a different subject, at all.
3 months ago
Anonymous
What? Yes that is.
3 months ago
Anonymous
All video game machines are computers. They are electronic memory-based devices built by computing and electronics companies, and they are part of the programming tradition. I don't know what else you would call this in your pedantic view.
3 months ago
Anonymous
And Cameras just randomly fell out of the sky?
3 months ago
Anonymous
Nobody ever said they did. What's your point? That analog technology existed before computers?
3 months ago
Anonymous
You're literally merging the purposes of early computing with that of little video games and said animation was just cameras like cameras just showed up and no one put any effort into it.
3 months ago
Anonymous
Dude people created cameras to make film! How is that different?
What's more advanced >Dipping some plastic in oil to create basic analog technology in the 1800s >The combined electronics and computing industry developed by IBM and NASA during the Cold War, with modern R&D, and bankrolled by governments and corporations as the next biggest thing
Come on now! Realize how stupid this sounds! Computing technology has always been huge and much more heavily built-up compared to cartooning.
3 months ago
Anonymous
UNIVERSITIES WERE NOT CREATING FRICKING GAMES
3 months ago
Anonymous
Modern animation techniques began around the 1830s with different spinning-wheel devices. Film technology also starts developing in the 1830s and the two fields don't start to merge until the late 19th century with the development of celluloid film. Cartooning has a long arc with a variety of technological developments impacting how it can be produced, you're just ignoring all that because digital technology is newer and seems more exotic.
3 months ago
Anonymous
Digital technology is factually and comprehensively more "exotic", as you are calling it. I can't even fathom why you're trying to say that flipbooks from 200 years ago are equal to computer engineering and post-WW2 capitalism. Even in the oldest days, Gustav Kirchhoff was leagues more advanced. And Disney artists definitely weren't copying 1 second loops of people dancing, they were making entire pictures of sustained movement which nobody had attempted before.
3 months ago
Anonymous
>Disney artists definitely weren't copying 1 second loops of people dancing, they were making entire pictures of sustained movement which nobody had attempted before.
Yes, because recent developments in technology at the time allowed them to do so. They were doing things that hadn't been attempted because a decade prior the means to do what they were doing had not been fully developed.
3 months ago
Anonymous
Dude people created cameras to make film! How is that different?
3 months ago
Anonymous
That's just the tech used to make it. 200 IQ geniuses did not bother developing the game industry. They made films with it though.
>the computing industry was upheld by universities, and electronic manufacturers, and decades of programmers, and books, and billions of dollars.
And Cameras just randomly fell out of the sky?
I was mosting comparing the video game industry to the idea that all new industries had huge jumps in potential, quality, and technique by illustrating various examples at certain points throughout time. I did not mean to compare Animation and Gaming on a 1-to-1 level. My apologies.
There's no comparison. Artists in the 1930's had it 1,000x harder than any person today. Computer and animation advancements today are very firmly established and are supported by multi-billion industries.
>no computer full of screenshots or movies >no google images >no youtube for references. no online tutorials either. >no phone to take photos or videos >there's barely any existing animation to copy or study from >even if you wanted to copy a movie or cartoon you had to memorize it, or pray that a couple of images were printed somewhere >if you want to draw, you have to be taught in-person, self-help books barely existed by this point. There were none in animation. >you have to do everything on paper, ink, paint, etc, which costs money >no computer programs with erase, undo, layers, transparency, and all the stuff we take for granted >all colors in animation have to be picked beforehand, and you have to pay for them. You don't get infinite colors for free >if you want to watch a completed animation, it has to be filmed with a camera and setup (film and cameras cost money, and no one had one outside of companies), and it takes hours to do this process >have to worry about compositing, panning, etc because it's all done by hand and can be fricked up easily >CGI and digital effects don't exist yet and aren't an industry standard that can easily be done on personal machines >audio and recording equipment was way more expensive. Again, it's not something you can do on your phone or computer like it's nothing >No digital editing for movies. This didn't even exist until the 80s or 90s, I don't remember which. Most computer advancements in film were made because of Industrial Light and Magic in the 80s and 90s
>they had literally nothing back then >they still made better things and bigger improvements
it's true what they say, hardship builds up a man, an easy life ruins him
Maybe it's human nature. Like fighting like a cornered rat. Limitations pushes people. Being content creates complacency. Not a hard rule, but pretty common pattern if I ever saw one.
All video game machines are computers. They are electronic memory-based devices built by computing and electronics companies, and they are part of the programming tradition. I don't know what else you would call this in your pedantic view.
Tennis for two was made from radar equipment. Computers were made for computing, aka numbers and data. Yes games are made of 0s and 1s, but using math to draw two paddles hitting a square ball for Pong is different than using math to make an accounting software.
>they had literally nothing back then >they still made better things and bigger improvements
it's true what they say, hardship builds up a man, an easy life ruins him
They also literally had nothing because it was the Depression and a lot of people, especially artistic types, were just happy to have work. It's more accurate to say that the hardship of the Great Depression built up the companies, and better economic times ruined them as animators started demanding better pay. It certainly caused Fleischer Studios to self-destruct.
Honestly there is only so much you can do to make 3d animation more life-like before hitting a brick wall. You can only go so far before just straight up resorting to uncannily photorealistic humans and at that point why even bother doing animation. They should just stick to making it more exaggerated and cartoonish instead.
Lot of software and production line improvements happened in those 10 years that are not immediately apparent to viewers. Some of the tech that went into Turning Red is very impressive. Shame it got wasted on such a shitty movie.
I think it's more that they need to turn the realism factor way back. Lifelike textures are cool and all but with a cartoony design like that it gets very uncanny valley. I don't see a difference between stuff like Soul and Turning Red and pic rel
The differences between Tangled and modern Disney animation are very much visible. It's the lighting and textures you gotta watch out for. Hyperion Engine rendering is ridiculously good. >Big Hero 6, the first Hyperion-rendered movie, is ten years old
FRICK
>The most realistic CGI right now is not 100% convincing.
I can guarantee you've seen large amounts of cgi in shows or movies you never even considered wouldn't be completely live action and didn't notice.
Nintendo 64 was built by Silicon Graphics, an American computer company and the forefront of tech. Every single console and programmer comes from the electronics and computing industry inherently. I dunno what to tell you if you don't believe that.
Animation was still in its infancy during the 1920s. Disney and other animation studios got bigger in the 1930s and could afford to spend more on productions. This includes big budget movies like Fantasia. The addition of sound and color added two whole new dimensions to the medium. Cel animation became more prevalent and artists learned how to properly use it to its fullest extent. Animators who had been working in the industry started perfecting their craft by the mid 30s and late 40s. 2D animation continued to advance with technology, but the biggest advances happened during the 1930s
and then they made it centralized as frick so when every major data center gets blown up 99% of electronics instantly become useless except for the people who kept around disk images of all linux packages with sources
>Improvement in 10 years back then: Astronomical
>Improvement in (over) 10 years now: Hardly any at all
Fricking depressing bros
You notice improvements far greater at the start of an industry than in the middle of it. It's why once we reached Fantasia visuals, theatrical cartoons kind of stayed that way and using those techniques for decades.
I suppose you're right, Satan, it's just depressing how we seem to be "improving" in a direction that almost feels like has an end, rather than a natural evolution that strives for uncharted bests
At times it even seems like we're moving backwards
There's still a lot more styles that people can't perfect in CG yet. Disney has been trying to make the "3D that looks like 2D" look since Feast. Far From the Tree got the closest and they experimented using that tech with Wish, but it's obvious they still have a long ways to go until it's ready for a theatrical 90-min movie. There's also a combination of mediums that studios have yet to fully touch, such as CG mixed with hand-drawn elements. You've seen it in some things where people will animate fire or smoke by hand on top of 3D animation. Collage stuff like that could become popular in 5+ years.
>look since Feast.
I meant to say "Paperman", whoops.
Look at the video game industry.
>1977: Pong
>1987: After Burner
>1997: Star Fox 64
>2007: Crisis
Every ten years there was a huge jump in technology, capability, power, graphics, and then...
>2017: Wolfenstein II: The Second Colossus
Yeah it looks pretty but it's not much of a change since.
Golden age techniques went away for a number of reasons.
Stop comparing early-20th century animation to video games. They are entire worlds apart. The animation industry in those days was like a handful of companies just doing whatever they could. Computers and video games always had a much bigger work force and sophisticated industry, even in the early 80's. Companies like IBM were hiring literal 200 IQ geniuses.
Most 8bit videogames were coded by three dudes in a garage, not big studios. The early days of videogames resembled some kida doing shit for Newgrounds more than that.
Yes, but even in the 80's, the computing industry was upheld by universities, and electronic manufacturers, and decades of programmers, and books, and billions of dollars. This is a far cry from people in the 1920's pointing a camera at a drawing.
why did you switch from vidya industry to computing industry?
Because game machines are computers? It's not a different subject, at all.
What? Yes that is.
All video game machines are computers. They are electronic memory-based devices built by computing and electronics companies, and they are part of the programming tradition. I don't know what else you would call this in your pedantic view.
And Cameras just randomly fell out of the sky?
Nobody ever said they did. What's your point? That analog technology existed before computers?
You're literally merging the purposes of early computing with that of little video games and said animation was just cameras like cameras just showed up and no one put any effort into it.
What's more advanced
>Dipping some plastic in oil to create basic analog technology in the 1800s
>The combined electronics and computing industry developed by IBM and NASA during the Cold War, with modern R&D, and bankrolled by governments and corporations as the next biggest thing
Come on now! Realize how stupid this sounds! Computing technology has always been huge and much more heavily built-up compared to cartooning.
UNIVERSITIES WERE NOT CREATING FRICKING GAMES
Modern animation techniques began around the 1830s with different spinning-wheel devices. Film technology also starts developing in the 1830s and the two fields don't start to merge until the late 19th century with the development of celluloid film. Cartooning has a long arc with a variety of technological developments impacting how it can be produced, you're just ignoring all that because digital technology is newer and seems more exotic.
Digital technology is factually and comprehensively more "exotic", as you are calling it. I can't even fathom why you're trying to say that flipbooks from 200 years ago are equal to computer engineering and post-WW2 capitalism. Even in the oldest days, Gustav Kirchhoff was leagues more advanced. And Disney artists definitely weren't copying 1 second loops of people dancing, they were making entire pictures of sustained movement which nobody had attempted before.
>Disney artists definitely weren't copying 1 second loops of people dancing, they were making entire pictures of sustained movement which nobody had attempted before.
Yes, because recent developments in technology at the time allowed them to do so. They were doing things that hadn't been attempted because a decade prior the means to do what they were doing had not been fully developed.
Dude people created cameras to make film! How is that different?
That's just the tech used to make it. 200 IQ geniuses did not bother developing the game industry. They made films with it though.
>the computing industry was upheld by universities, and electronic manufacturers, and decades of programmers, and books, and billions of dollars.
And Cameras just randomly fell out of the sky?
I was mosting comparing the video game industry to the idea that all new industries had huge jumps in potential, quality, and technique by illustrating various examples at certain points throughout time. I did not mean to compare Animation and Gaming on a 1-to-1 level. My apologies.
They ARE. Early games are not complex.
And see how far they've come.
There's no comparison. Artists in the 1930's had it 1,000x harder than any person today. Computer and animation advancements today are very firmly established and are supported by multi-billion industries.
>no computer full of screenshots or movies
>no google images
>no youtube for references. no online tutorials either.
>no phone to take photos or videos
>there's barely any existing animation to copy or study from
>even if you wanted to copy a movie or cartoon you had to memorize it, or pray that a couple of images were printed somewhere
>if you want to draw, you have to be taught in-person, self-help books barely existed by this point. There were none in animation.
>you have to do everything on paper, ink, paint, etc, which costs money
>no computer programs with erase, undo, layers, transparency, and all the stuff we take for granted
>all colors in animation have to be picked beforehand, and you have to pay for them. You don't get infinite colors for free
>if you want to watch a completed animation, it has to be filmed with a camera and setup (film and cameras cost money, and no one had one outside of companies), and it takes hours to do this process
>have to worry about compositing, panning, etc because it's all done by hand and can be fricked up easily
>CGI and digital effects don't exist yet and aren't an industry standard that can easily be done on personal machines
>audio and recording equipment was way more expensive. Again, it's not something you can do on your phone or computer like it's nothing
>No digital editing for movies. This didn't even exist until the 80s or 90s, I don't remember which. Most computer advancements in film were made because of Industrial Light and Magic in the 80s and 90s
tl;dr, they had literally nothing back then
>they had literally nothing back then
>they still made better things and bigger improvements
it's true what they say, hardship builds up a man, an easy life ruins him
Maybe it's human nature. Like fighting like a cornered rat. Limitations pushes people. Being content creates complacency. Not a hard rule, but pretty common pattern if I ever saw one.
Tennis for two was made from radar equipment. Computers were made for computing, aka numbers and data. Yes games are made of 0s and 1s, but using math to draw two paddles hitting a square ball for Pong is different than using math to make an accounting software.
They also literally had nothing because it was the Depression and a lot of people, especially artistic types, were just happy to have work. It's more accurate to say that the hardship of the Great Depression built up the companies, and better economic times ruined them as animators started demanding better pay. It certainly caused Fleischer Studios to self-destruct.
Honestly there is only so much you can do to make 3d animation more life-like before hitting a brick wall. You can only go so far before just straight up resorting to uncannily photorealistic humans and at that point why even bother doing animation. They should just stick to making it more exaggerated and cartoonish instead.
Video games are the same way. Just look at the difference between Final Fantasy 7 and Final Fantasy 10.
Lot of software and production line improvements happened in those 10 years that are not immediately apparent to viewers. Some of the tech that went into Turning Red is very impressive. Shame it got wasted on such a shitty movie.
Didn't they spend millions for the Turning Red "expressiveness"?
I think it's more that they need to turn the realism factor way back. Lifelike textures are cool and all but with a cartoony design like that it gets very uncanny valley. I don't see a difference between stuff like Soul and Turning Red and pic rel
The differences between Tangled and modern Disney animation are very much visible. It's the lighting and textures you gotta watch out for. Hyperion Engine rendering is ridiculously good.
>Big Hero 6, the first Hyperion-rendered movie, is ten years old
FRICK
If the peak of 3D animation was making visuals as realistic as possible, then I'm afraid we've already reached that point long ago.
Why do you say that? The most realistic CGI right now is not 100% convincing.
>The most realistic CGI right now is not 100% convincing.
I can guarantee you've seen large amounts of cgi in shows or movies you never even considered wouldn't be completely live action and didn't notice.
>comparing two completely different art styles to improvement in what is more or less the same style
>getting replies that aren't this one
I knew Cinemaphile was moronic but what the frick?
Verification not required.
not fair, raps is incomparable
>Gayming is intelligent cause smart people make the computer
What the FRICK
Frick you frick you frick you
Take any hobby/job seriously and you'll see the massive change you make in a decade.
it's not hard, it takes commitment.
Nintendo 64 was built by Silicon Graphics, an American computer company and the forefront of tech. Every single console and programmer comes from the electronics and computing industry inherently. I dunno what to tell you if you don't believe that.
Animation was still in its infancy during the 1920s. Disney and other animation studios got bigger in the 1930s and could afford to spend more on productions. This includes big budget movies like Fantasia. The addition of sound and color added two whole new dimensions to the medium. Cel animation became more prevalent and artists learned how to properly use it to its fullest extent. Animators who had been working in the industry started perfecting their craft by the mid 30s and late 40s. 2D animation continued to advance with technology, but the biggest advances happened during the 1930s
The guy who created the first game, "Tennis for Two", was one of the scientists who built the nuclear bomb.
Computers and the internet as a general thing were created as a safe-guard against nuclear doomsday.
and then they made it centralized as frick so when every major data center gets blown up 99% of electronics instantly become useless except for the people who kept around disk images of all linux packages with sources
Drastically different here.
Thank you Holmes
loomis
There is no answer for how ancient man could have made this jump in progress, except with the aid of aliens.
Is weird how different Mickey has gotten?
Frick you guys I wanted to see people talk about and appreciate the advancements made in the thirties and you just handed me a load of crap as usual.