According to Milton Knight, ageism in the animation industry has prevented any of the talented people from Adventures of Sonic the Hedgehog from getting work again, save for those who also worked on Ren & Stimpy.
He also says ageism was already a problem in the 90's, when the original Looney Tunes animators who were hired for Tiny Toons got mistreated.
You know why we're stuck with beanmouth shit? Because the old guard isn't being hired to teach the new generation to make anything better.
It's these geezers' fault for not gatekeeping harder.
Unless they're signing the paychecks they don't have the authority to do so
How can you keep the gate when they blew it down?
For frick's sake it's not ageism that pushed all the talent out, animation studios went burn-and-turn over a decade ago. Older artists with experience and talent and savings can afford to ask for a higher wage and better benefits and that's at odds with a model built around cutting payroll first.
You homosexuals are way too quick to blame people with no power for the decisions of old money-grubbing c**ts
That's a man
Autism.
That doesn't change a thing. I want to frick Bridget's butthole. I've wanted to frick his butthole since the early 00's and will continue to want to frick that sissy british fairy,
that moron was turned into a troony btw
How can artists gatekeep their CEOs? This is exactly what MBAs teach them - kick out the old guard because they get paid more, and hire the cheapest people you can possibly get away with.
Sounds about right.
This guy has a point though. We all need to double down on gatekeeping.
>We all need to double down on gatekeeping.
It's what rich people do.
Can't self-segregate by race but can self-segregate by economic class.
>10 years later and homies still mad as frick
that is sad to hear.
It's the same with comics. Once you turn 50, unless you're a tippy top superstar artist like Romita Jr. you're fricked. Ordway was one of the best artists for 20 years and still draws good but once he hit 50 all of his work started drying up and he was complaining about that a decade ago.
The 24/7 schedules Marvel/DC demands pretty much take a toll on people's health. There was a recent guy who just died in his late 30s. It's pretty much why the industry churns through artists and why the older ones don't last and get replaced by new blood.
Yeah but Ordway and a lot of older guys are complaining that they can still draw, it's just that companies won't give them work.
Again age is a real issue, older guys are viewed as less reliable because of the grind and stress. But I'd point out Ordway is getting work. He is an artist on the Justice Society of America book. But I also need to point out: all the editors that Ordway worked with at DC have been gone for years. There's been multiple turnovers due to Didio and Nelson. I think Berganza or Richards were probably the last people from the 90s era DC and connections like that matter. Newer editors are going to go for the artists that were hot during the 2000s. That's just how it works.
>There was a recent guy who just died in his late 30s
that sounds like a lawsuit awaiting to happen. if you're making a comic you should always plan ahead not matter how many pages you've done.
the US animation industry will sooner or later implode. spiderverse 2 hired rick leonardi to not only draw miguel but also help the entire team to understand how miguel would move and developed the shaders specific made for him and his world. this stupidity is also the reason of why modern animators can't draw a landescape or background to save their lives. the old guard who knows how to properly do that and developed many techniques are dropping dead or kicked out of the industry
they should create books.
what are they doing now?
This all won't matter anymore now that AI is advancing.
Now even less talented people can push out more schlock even faster. Hallelujah!
>This all won't matter anymore now that AI is advancing.
Did you see AI animation?
It's either glorified rotoscoping or glorified morphing.
There's no acting, emotion or actual animation skills involved.
Of course a pajeet like you wouldn't know anything about animation or at in so nevermind.
Better than beanmouth noodle-limb shit that we call "animation", beta.
>this rat poison is bad, but at least it better than donkey piss!!!
The absolute state of pajeets.
American animation hasn't been a thing since the 80s, It's all just Korean/Philippines shit now. Yanks became so lazy that they pretty much rely on foreign manual labor to function as a country. Without it, they'd collapse overnight. It's pretty much just a corporation now rather than a full fledged nation.
This doesn't target just older animators but even people like Maxwell Atoms. The animation industry just outright hates it's older contemporaries with a passion. Hence why we get shit like Primos rather than good shows.
>that gun
Yeah, that guy will be replaced by AI before anyone else.
I think Johnny Ryan will be fine
That wasn't a bad thing. More animation based on comics should have the original artists involved.
Darewyn Cooke did storyboards for the New Frontier cartoon movie if I recall
>modern animators can't draw a landescape or background to save their lives.
Animator, layout, and background design are different jobs.
That's not to say the old animators couldn't do background well but not as well as the artists whose craft was specifically layout or background.
90's Sonic Artists in need of a job?
They should give Tamers12345 a call
Frick it, why not
Zoomers mindlessly spitting on tradition will blow up in their faces. Cronyist buttholes who only hire their moronic subversive friends aren't passing down the knowledge.
Zoomzooms are just boomers with 50 less years kek.
How come people who barely done anything are always the most vocal on Twitter? This dude worked on a few cartoons and some comics, his list is tiny.
Man shut the hell up, when you get into the industry you're not going to make a dozen cartoons
When I was a teenager there were people like you back then too, then famous millennial creators turned out to make one or two shows
Now their projects are just falling apart because nobody knows how to make anything
This sounds like cope, you can't find even small jobs on dozen of shows or in comics you must suck at your job. Work for like 30 years and only on like 10 cartoons is bad.
I haven't been here for 4 years, and you're still around?
No exaggeration: He posts every day. He doesn't have a life outside of this.
The amount of times I have seen a post and thought "wow that's a stupid fricking post" only to look at the name field and see "guy" is genuinely astonishing
It stands to reason. The older and more talented and connected you get, the more expensive you are to hire, so producers aren't going to want to bother when the goal is to just put out a stream of noise to maybe sell toys.
It makes more sense to outsource to Asia or hire a bunch of kids fresh out of art school with a mountain of debt that will be happy just to work for exposure rather than demand things like health insurance or royalties.
>the more expensive you are to hire
So why don't people like Milton just agree to work for less?
They probably don't have rich parents to mooch off of like all the young trust fund babies currently infesting American animation.
guys have you ever tried to work with old frickers
they suck
Sure, but they also tend to be good at their jobs, even if it's only because they've been doing them for a long time.
Except management.
Any of the old fricks in management or any of the old frick execs are useless boomer dead weight, but that applies to pretty much all managers and execs regardless of race.
>regardless of race
Freudian slip
Regardless of age.*
It's not incorrect. I've heard horror stories about Japan's bugman-tier obsession with seniority in corporate structure.
homie everyone I've worked with for the last 15 years has had a 20+ year age difference over me. They taught me everything I know and thanks to them I went from wagie to project manager making triple than I did before.
Zoomers and millenials are all lazy homosexuals with skill issues that will ruin any industry they enter
All the old people I work with just complains about stuff they read on Facebook or talk about crap from 40 years ago as if I give a shit.
>guys have you ever tried to work with old frickers
>they suck
Yes, they suck ass but they're still better than the shallow and vapid bunch of homosexuals & feminist women that I grew up with.
At least those boomers have skills to teach me, what do my gen can teach me besides how to make peanuts on Onlyfans and show my ass on Tinder?
Yes. They don't suck any more or less on average than people my age or younger.
At one point I would say that old fricks know more but understand tech less, but honestly old fricks understand tech more now than a lot of the newest grads for some strange reason.
literal moron, go look up who teaches animation at the various schools
You mean like Matt Williames, who just got canceled for advocating for truth?
And you're like 20 years old right, talking about your fantasies of what your future is going to be? This is the real world kid, show actual facts
>Only on 10 cartoons
What if you spend 10 years on a well-paying show? You're lost in a kids fantasy of working on as many cartoons as possible, there's no reason to even care about that
>Animation student realizes his school is worthless and there's so much lost animation knowledge in America
>This is the real world kid, show actual facts
Okay
Boil nobody cares about these screenshots. Every time I post a page from the Preston Blair book I'm contributing more than you can
I grew up as a kid with Looney tunes, tex Avery, and contemporary classics like Dexter's Lab, that's still animation to me, not Gravity Falls
>Every time I post a page from the Preston Blair book I'm contributing more than you can
Then why do people know more about your schizophrenia than the pages?
>Every time I post a page from the Preston Blair book I'm contributing more than you can
You're really not when you've been posting them multiple times a day every day for years at this point.
You could have spent every minute wasted doing this shit and actually made something close to what you wanted it to be.
>But I do make stuff
Literally all I've ever seen you post of your own was a single page of cartoon mouth studies. Which, credit where it's due, wasn't bad by any means. At the end of the day though, I think you've T H O R O U G H L Y gotten your views out there, you've signal boosted the frick out of them, and there's not a fricking thing left for you to contribute to the medium in that way. Now the only thing that's left is for you to actually put something together.
I guarantee you that once you get into the swing of actually making something, you'll find it to be a thousand times more gratifying than spending your time doing this.
You mean you haven't seen his melty spider man? He's been posting it a lot and it's quite funny
It looks like he ran out of room at the top so he squished his head like a kid writing text off the side of a margin
I actually haven't seen it! Props to him for finally posting something else, for what it's worth
Maybe hold off on those props until you see the image
I mean, it's bad, but I still maintain it's a step in the right direction from the incessant shitposting without ever even attempting to put his money where his mouth is
>expecting guy to do anything else
ngmi
Looks like AI Picasso
Guy you’re such a pud but you actually make a good point here, I hope you can do more of that in the future.
Which one? Because they're all either opinions or wrong.
>You mean like Matt Williames, who just got canceled for advocating for truth?
Google isn't bringing up anything. QRD? What truths did he expose about the industry?
you ever wonder what these young adults think of the older shows and wonder why it's harder to achieve than today? why do you think american animation regressed for more than two decades?
Ahh, so this is why American animation is so shit.
All the actually talented and experienced oldheads are being forced out by their moronic replacements.
blame past CEO's or executives for cutting animation budgets or blocks for their failed programs like zach snyder or that one other woman. Nickelodean is basically a scam where they put one new show on and dump it into a channel to let it die. Disney has gone full woke. CN is literally TTGo channel.
according to knight, it's because the younger generation saw the old guard as "making them look bad" in comparison
Lucky for them they made themselves look bad on their own, lol.
what the frick. then maybe they should stick to their phones or whatever they do. they obviously want a cheap way rather the long, hard, and successful way. what a joke. thank god i didn't go to university for animation.
>then maybe they should stick to their phones or whatever they do.
You mean telephones? I don't think they had cellphones in the 90s.
there were cellphones back then, but they were thicker and kind of bad for you.
i am not a zoomer. i was born in 1989.
>i was born in 1989.
And you're watching asiaticshit tranime? lmao fricking loser
I don't think that's 100% the case, but I can see why he'd get this impression.
It might be due to generational clash, but the trouble with a lot of arts jobs nowadays is that you have these rich kids who went to expensive schools where the whole appeal of said schools is to network and get hired by their friends. They've spent their whole lives being told that they're the best of the best.
This develops into a certain level of entitlement where telling someone 'No, you can't do that' or 'No, that makes no sense' would result in people getting offended or upset. While this is obviously not the case with all young animators, it's more common now than before, if only because of how expensive it is to go into the arts.
One of, if not 'the', hardest thing an artist can learn is humility. Knowing they're not the best and probably never will be but they can still strive to be the best they themselves can be. Few people actually learn it, most people don't and either stand by the shittiness of their work as a "stand against conformity" or whatever, or give up entirely and a few do go a bit further can just can't live with the pressure/stress of the idea. A lot of these students are sadly dunning krugers with zero humility because they were never taught to look inwards but to always project outwards instead.
Good. Frick mutt animation. it is not art. It is an abomination like mutts themselves.
tell you the truth, american animation lacks beauty, so you're not wrong.
Total bullshit. You zoomers grew up on dogshit and never knew good American animation. It was American animation that inspired the world, your Japanese animes included. There is no animation that America has not inspired.
That time is long gone, and no one on this board was alive during it.
Shit, chances are no one here had parents who were alive during that time.
>There is no animation that America has not inspired.
Animation comes from the French though, not the US.
America would unironically do well to adopt some Confucianist principles, especially the one about elders.
MUH OLD IMPOSSIBLE TO MASTER CELLULOID TECHNIQUES.
not to mention, animation in america has these new bullshit code where you need certain criteria's to meet the Woke crowd. sickening. virtue signaling or whatever has not place in the world of animation. just because a character has tan like skin doesn't mean they're black. It's like everyone in america thinks color coded defines a race. haven't they ever heard of skin pigment or melatonin?social media be damned. hell i don't think blacks even watch TV often. I don't think they even care if they're not represented, they just want a show.
because young people think they want an experienced person to do the work, yet unbeknownst to them they have to outsource to Korea when it was superior Japan who did all the hard work back in the day. I bet they don't even know what Cel Sheets are.
At some point, one needs to move into management, if not start independent studios with their peers. I say this without callousness or disregard for the contributions of industry seniors, but churn has always been terrible in animation. The old guys should know better than anyone about the downward economic forces, the need to constantly cycle through new blood, and the urgency and zeal with which the young guns must carve out territory, because I guarantee you they were all in the same position once.
Studios may gut layout teams, yet happily outsource that job to the same people, if they had their own company. Instead of wishing WB kept them on so that they could impart their institutional knowledge to the next generation, they should have actively advertised and sold their knowledge to WB's competitors if not WB itself. WB screwed you because you let them.
It takes a lot of money and all these people want to keep living in LA. It won't happen.
>all these people want to keep living in LA
Why the frick do these artsy fartsy homosexuals so insistent on congregating into the same coastal shitholes?
They don't. Most animation these days is done in Georgia. Anon is just a pol obsessed homosexual.
>Most animation these days is done in Georgia
Prove it.
Fricking privileged art students are ruining an entire industry. Frick this gay earth.
And he's right.
This man's legendary as far as I'm concerned.
I would totally watch a Hugo movie. Princess Trish in those see through dresses — daaaaamnn!!!
that's sad
I can believe it. It's one of those corpo things most vocal leftists don't give two shits about. It's been happening for years in my country. Now we have corporations bawling their eyes out that there's a "labor shortage" while it's still impossible for geezers to find a job because of their age. Frick, one of my co-workers was told he's too old at age 30. Of course, when we had a massive labor surplus and it was impossible to find a job without sending hundreds of applications while also having a stellar resume you didn't hear the corpo's complain.
What country are you in? 30 is still a young adult for fricks sake
Western Europe. But it comes from that era of labor surplus we had a decade ago. Employers had the pick of the litter when it came to employees, and the only guarantee to get a good job was to be a 20-something fresh out of college with relevant work experience and a bunch of resume-filling activities. I know another dude who did vocational training later in life after failing out of college, and he had a hard time finding work because of his age, too. The boss of his current job actually had to step in after he'd already been rejected.
The fact that media and politics have already been talking about this labor shortage "problem" both scares and angers me.
"Labor shortages" don't exist. There are 8 billion people on this planet.
What there is is a wage shortage. Cheap employers won't pay a reasonable wage so no one will work for them.
They cry "labor shortage" so they can get approval to make prisoners or immigrants do the work for pennies
>Cheap employers won't pay a reasonable wage so no one will work for them
Of course they'd pay as little as they can get away with. The question is, does paying more create a proportional increase in profits? Does the larger audience care about quality? More money and a more "qualified" staff on paper does not always guarantee a more profitable product. Illumination paid $100 million to make Super Mario Bros. Like it or not, that generated more than a billion in sales. Meanwhile Disney pissed away double that budget to give us Strange World.
The only way to break out of this sort of thinking is to have independent companies for whom animation is their singular concern. Miraculous Ladybug isn't pulling in larger numbers than its network-made peers, but that show has gone on forever and has a movie coming out. Big Mouth lasted 8 fricken seasons. One does not have to like those shows, but one should recognize those companies got their business model correct.
>"Corporations don't want to pay people enough to live so they pretend no one wants to work so they can import captive labor."
>BUT WHAT ABOUT THE PROFITS!?!?
Unironically have a nice day
>We deserve more money
>We don't care about profits.
Unironically you are killing yourself and the industry already.
We both know you're being a disingenuous twat and ignoring where profit actually goes but even taking your bullshit at face value:
If an industry can only support itself with slave labor it should die
>where profit actually goes
You don't recognize where the initial capital investment comes from. You need money to make a show? You need to provide enough of a return to attract investors. Networks are investors. If you can't give them enough of a return, they will spend their money elsewhere. What are you are going to do to stop them?
>If an industry can only support itself with slave labor it should die
In my post, I already gave you two examples of shows that are thriving without having outsized audiences, because they're independent/semi-independent.
I'm not pushing for slave labor. The problem is you think willing slaves should be paid like kings.
>I'm not pushing for slave labor by prioritizing increased profits over the well-being of workers!
>They're WILLING slaves!
Suck-start a shotgun.
I'm not pushing for slave labor, you just can't accept the reality that's how investment works. The only way to be free from that is to be independent from that system. Yet you keep ignoring it. You keep ignoring the successes. You want to remain chained. You want to remain a slave. You are too scared to walk away.
Anon you can't say you don't advocate slave labor in the same post as calling animators willing slaves.
Your entire argument is basically "well there's no way to make companies pay a living wage so suck it up gay lel"
You're the worst kind of apologist, a toady for the worst excesses of capitalism trying to pretend you're appealing to naturalism.
Start your car and leave the garage door down
>Anon you can't say you don't advocate slave labor in the same post as calling animators willing slaves.
If you insist they're making slave wages, yet they willingly work at those places, that makes them willing slaves.
>Your entire argument is basically
It's not an argument, it's an observation. That's the reality as it is right now. Is it not shit? Is it not slave wages?
>You're the worst kind of apologist
You're an apologist for cowardice. If animators are treated as slaves, paid as slaves, what are you actually doing to help them other than complaining about capitalism on the internet? None of this does anything. Unions don't do anything, because they can't increase the amount of money going into this system. Raise wages? Fire people. Raise budgets? Fewer shows.
If you can't accept reality, how can you hope to circumvent problems?
>Unions can't do anything because they don't increase profits!
lol this homie still pretending companies run net-zero. What a child.
>I don't see...
I don't give a frick what you see. We weren't even talking about animation. Fricking read you worthless b***h.
Let me ask you this. You guys are arguing for better pay for more qualified and experienced animators. But where are the good 2D animators working right now? Which studio is putting out 2D movies and has a good reputation among animators? It's not fricking WB or Disney. It's Cartoon Saloon. A small independent whose movies do not make back their budget at the theaters, yet they're profitable and keep chugging along just fine.
>You guys are arguing for better pay for more qualified and experienced animators
Except no we aren't
This chain is about fake "worker shortages" and how they're used to get approval for captive immigrant or prison labor.
Anon said "But what about my precious profits? It's only natural for a company to pay as little as possible!"
Then I told him to kill himself.
>This chain is about fake "worker shortages"
That supposition isn't true. I don't see companies claiming there's a labor shortage. Rather, it's a shortage of expertise.
If wages are to rise for this special expertise, companies actually have to compete for those workers. That means there needs to be more companies. That means people need to move away from the existing networks and start them. This isn't hard to understand.
>That supposition isn't true. I don't see companies claiming there's a labor shortage
I do. That's why I said it. We've had it on the national news, and we've had a minister bring it up.
The guy you're talking to legit thinks wages rise with profits
He doesn't live in reality, he lives in libertarian ancap fantasy land
The problem economics hasn't solved is that while companies are "immortal", the people leading them aren't and don't give a single frick what happens after they die or leave.
So long term problem solving has no value at all.
And that if you can't find anybody suitable, companies will always lower their standards for hiring before trying to offer more money.
There's a lot of problems the free market can't solve. Some functions of society simply do not function properly on profit motive as it creates perverse incentives (you make more money treating an illness than preventing/curing it, you make more money denying health care claims than approving them, you make more money stuffing classrooms with warm bodies rather than teaching properly, etc.)
Beyond that there's also fiduciary duty, which makes long-term planning literally illegal. If it can be proven you didn't do everything in your power as a C-suite to boost this quarter's numbers you can be sued by your shareholders.
Especially since shareholders and investors are only useful once, and then a pain in the ass forever.
These problems exist for publicly traded corporations. Which is why at the very start, within the scope of this thread being about the animation industry, I said these experienced animators need to untether themselves from this system and be independent. Zag Toon is independent. Cartoon Saloon is independent. Animation is their only business, and they're doing fine.
startups always pay even less.
No risk, no reward. Google couldn't pay shit to their hairdresser, so she got stock instead. Now she's a multimillionaire.
which doesn't solve the problem of not paying enough to retain good talent.
>paying enough to retain good talent
I thought the discussion was about companies not caring enough to retain talent.
pay is caring.
If you make bullshit you don't deserve money
Simple as
If you don't pay, you get bullshit.
Simple as.
If you suck at your job, you don’t deserve to get anything but a pink slip. Simple as.
But people with bullshit jobs do get money.
EX: government bureaucrats.
No, they exist in all pure capitalist enterprises
Even without fiduciary duty the CEO package is set by the board
Libertarianism is naive at best and idiotic at worst
>Beyond that there's also fiduciary duty, which makes long-term planning literally illegal
This is actually an example of government interfering with the free market, through regulations that give more power to short term investors.
>The only way to break out of this sort of thinking is to have independent companies for whom animation is their singular concern.
So what do the employees eat?
What are you implying, that the people at Zag and Cartoon Saloon are starving?
I'm implying that the artistry is not their *singular* concern. They still gotta keep the lights on.
And I'm telling you there are independent studios that are successful. They do keep the lights on. Being independent lets them keep their shows running much longer (Miraculous Ladybug, Big Mouth), and do things that they find artistically fulfilling (Cartoon Saloon's movies).
Yeah, pretty much. This is also the root of the fable that Polish migrants and others "did/do the work we (meaning you, filthy peon) don't want to do!" while neglecting to manage they did/do the work for much cheaper, with much worse results, and without having the education that's mandatory for native workers.
That's pants on head moronic. People are maturing much slower than they are a couple of decades ago, cases of arrested development are going up, its a side affect of people living longer.
The whole 'make something of your-self, and be married with kids before 30' is a littteral boomer mentality. It was trying to get as many people into the work force after the devastation of 2 world wars. Its extremely difficult, nearly impossible for young people today.
Leftists can't acknowledge it because it reveals the problem with their open borders religion
Oldgays aren't entirely interested in teaching the old ways either and studios think their methods are "too expensive".
Not everyone's a teacher either, some are both good craftsmen and teachers, others are just great at what they do. The workplace fricks up real bad when they got someone who's both and then chase them away through neglect.
You know who doesn't care about your age? AI.
Can't the oldies just teach the youngins. Are they refusing to learn, or are the older animators just not teaching them. Why is there such a divide. Can't we just make fun animations together 🙁
>Are they refusing to learn, or are the older animators just not teaching them
Pic related.
Wow. This is honestly so sad. I remember as a student it felt as though none of us were being taught fundamentals. Just told to "do our thing". If we had some talent, fine, but there was no strong emphasis on actually learning and practicing key skills from the masters.
I like how the admins recognize that the problem is how they make money (attracting rich untalented unmotivated c**ts) but they'd rather let an art form die than shrink their footprint.
Capitalism destroys art.
Without capitalism, working class people like myself wouldn’t be able to afford the shit we need like food and clothing. With capitalism comes cheaper alternatives. You upper middle class creative types need to get over yourselves.
Capitalism isn't inherently "bad" or inherently "good" and it doesn't inherently do this. It might do this or someone might get a monopoly and jack up all the prices that a public option would be cheaper than. It all just depends. This includes buying up things like the water supply. It's not either bad or good by itself and can have either good or bad outcomes. It's just a neutral thing.
The free market and competition are not capitalism but a seperate idea, you can have capitalism without a free market or any competition as long as things are controlled by private owners for their profit, this could include a fascist dictatorship where the dictator and his cronies own everything, force the public to buy from.them, and make a profit. Hence "State Capitalism."
Why are people talking about zoomers or whatever? All of these issues is because of old fricks like David Zaslav that suck everything creatively dry. Rather than train new animators or retain old animators, they shove all the work to studios in other countries because it's cheaper.
They don't care that it's financially unstable to keep outsourcing shit or that eventually it's going to collapse on their head. All that matters is that they earn money NOW.
We haven't been in a proper capitalist society for decades. We're an oligarchy, ran by rich fricks that use the veil of capitalism to run businesses into the ground, cornering markets so that the only thing pigs like you can eat is slop. And then you pretend you're grateful for them, forgetting how better things were before they came into the picture.
That's art courses. Please nobody do art courses. That's all arts not just visual
I hate this. I have friends who don’t give half a shit about any of this who do better linework in their doodles at work. Disgraceful.
Literally fricking Hitler drew better than most of these "artists" and he was an apparent reject
>tfw went to art school
>all of my actual art professors were painting, comic, animation, 3d modeling professionals
>learn that basically right after I left, almost all of the professionals left
>the school lost its accreditation soon after.
Part of it is that not enough of the older generations are going into teaching, not with how shit the pay is and how shit the students will tend to be. It's difficult to try and tough it out for the two our of every hundred people who will actually give a shit. Art school is supposed to be more about the environment and the interaction you can have with people who know what they're talking about. As it stands right now there's zero reason to go to these schools, because you will get the same amount of education and experience from looking up tutorials and shit on youtube.
Holy shit some of those "pieces" are elementary school tier garbage.
Fitting considering animation schools have essentially become daycares for rich kids.
Cinemaphile would make for great executives. Shit ideas and demanding master level work at intern level prices. Then when all they have is shit it's everyone else's fault.
That’s accurate. I would say it just goes to show that unless you actually work in the industry, you have no idea what you’re talking about. Despite that, everyone wants to offer their “take” or bullshit about how only they have thought of a million dollar idea that would change everything.
Good. Frick olds. Soaking up huge paychecks while doing minimal work.
dude if you even worked on the last season of that show in 1995 you'd be at least 46 now
likelihood is you'd be closer to if not over 60
>the old guard isn't being hired to teach the new generation
nobody is preventing these geniuses from getting teaching jobs (except John K. who's required to tell you when he moves into your neighborhood)
>anon admits companies will do anything to pay as little as possible
>and in the same breath says that pay will go up with profit gain
Cool doublethink
It's almost like you need some sort of wage floor or else greed causes a depression
Where have we seen that before?
>and in the same breath says that pay will go up with profit gain
It does. It's not a move a company would make out of the goodness of its heart, but if an industry proves itself to be profitable, more investment money come in, demand for product increases, increasing competition for the talent pool, thus increasing wages.
Companies themselves do not exist outside of market pressures. Market pressures just aren't strong right now. Money is being pulled left and right, *because* these industry products are failing.
>increasing competition for the talent pool, thus increasing wages.
Or just infinitely lowering standards until they hire their janitor to animate.
Which is what really happens.
Which opens the door for new competitors with a better product to succeed.
I am currently seeing entire industries in western europe kill themselves because they literally refuse to ever increase wages, so no they won't.
The owners will just ride out the current crop until they retire, then let the company go bankrupt.
>I am currently seeing entire industries in western europe kill themselves
I don't know which industries you are referring to, but on an individual company basis, it's okay if they die. If they could raise wages and increase profits, but they refuse to and damage their own business, then they're acting irrationally. They're the problem, and the market is purging them from the system. That's good. That's things working as they should.
As long as the demand is still there and the economics makes it worthwhile, then there should be replacements. If not, what can anyone do? You can't force people to do or like anything.
>As long as the demand is still there and the economics makes it worthwhile, then there should be replacements. If not, what can anyone do? You can't force people to do or like anything.
No, they won't.
Maybe foreign companies will, but domestic companies will lose their knowhow and never be replaced.
Most boomers are old, they don't give a shit if the company still exists in 10 years.
They might not even live that long themselves anymore.
American animation might just be dead forever.
>What can we do?
Most governments figure out that it's worthwhile to subsidize the arts.
>Wages go up with profits!
You're cute
A few weeks ago someone posted this image of an artist sharing some art they and some friends did on The Wild Thornberries to vent some frustration while working on the show. I thought they were funny but some industry guy called it boomer edge. I think senses of humor and tastes are so different from Gen Xers vs Millenials/zoomers that it becomes very cliquey. Industry guy shared some of the joke art storyboarders made on the shows they worked on and instead of being more standalone like these they were all basically just redrawn internet memes.
>Industry guy shared some of the joke art storyboarders made on the shows they worked on and instead of being more standalone like these they were all basically just redrawn internet memes.
May I see them?
>Industry guy shared some of the joke art storyboarders made on the shows they worked on and instead of being more standalone like these they were all basically just redrawn internet memes
Got it
https://twitter.com/Coelasquid/status/1664055242693148672
>You know why we're stuck with beanmouth shit? Because the old guard isn't being hired to teach the new generation to make anything better.
What the frick did they go to art school for then? It's not the old guard's job to train someone who was already hired with the explicit understanding that they studied art and animation.
They went for networking. Art school doesn't actually teach fundies anymore. It's basically a scam.
>It might be due to generational clash, but the trouble with a lot of arts jobs nowadays
In this case Milton Knight was actually talking about the original Tiny Toons/Looney Tunes crew back in the 90s. So this is really not a "now" problem, but an "always has been" problem.
I think there is a thread of rebellious spirit in animators, more so than average. Knight may even have been guilty of it himself when he started. To be fair to the Tiny Toons people, it's not Looney Tunes. They have their own ideas that they're fighting for. I'm sure there's a sense of entitlement, but I wouldn't say it's the sole reason for this kind of generational clash.
Both the animation and musical industry have suffered for years from a "new approach" to their work where tried and true methods and learning theory are shat upon in favor of letting newcomers "flex their creative muscle". The problem is that it's very rare that you get newcomers talented enough to experiment with new things in a clever way that pays off and most of them avoid working in the industry like the plague because the clique of talent-less young hacks has completely taken over (and said talent-less hacks will proceed to cite examples of these gifted newcomers changing the industry as "proof" that you don't need standards). And you need set rules so people can bend and break them to create new approaches in the first place anyway.
Kazuhide Tomonaga can draw 100x better than any millennial lol.
>Kazuhide Tomonaga
???
Famous animator.
Worked on a lot of anime and movies.
As far as Cinemaphile goes, he also animated the intro for Batman TAS.
Its not "ageism" its that older experienced people demand higher salaries because they have families to support so companies don't even bother trying to hire them. They won't even risk offering them the same pitiful salaries they offer entry-level people because they (rightly) assume they'll job hop as soon as possible to anything that pays better and waste all the time the company spent onboarding them leaving them on the hook to start the process again with someone else.
Is there even any difference between an 'experienced' cartoonist and a brand new one? All they do is draw storyboard panels and ship them off to be animated, the real work is done by Koreans. With a niche industry like this that always has more applicants than positions if you don't "make it" by a certain age then you need to seek out a new career.
Gotta keep out all those old wrongthinkers
Animation was literally invented as a solo hobby.
>You know why we're stuck with beanmouth shit?
>Because the old guard isn't being hired to teach the new generation to make anything better.
That's not it at all, the reason we're stuck with this beanmouth shit it's the same reason why we were stuck with noodle arms in 1930s or He-Man rip-offs in the 80s.
It's a trendy art style and the animation industry always followed trends in art style.
Unless someone comes up with something that appeals a lot to the new generation of kids that's vastly different from CalArts, then we're stuck with this shit regardless if animation vets come back or not.
>It's a trendy art style and the animation industry always followed trends in art style.
Wrong, its what most artist know because they all come from the same schools on top of studios and corporations cutting the budget anywhere they can.
>noodle arms in 1930s
That was a limitation of skill, the medium was still new and the animators of the time were still pioneering and streamlining techniques.
>He-Man rip-offs in the 80s
All of that just glorified toy commercials to sell action figures.
A more apt comparison would have been UPA or Hanna-Barbera styles, which compared to the modern, have the same issue of very limited budget, but nowadays animators also just don't have the talent or training of the older generations.
Animation millennial here
Boomers can't get jobs because they always fricking refuse to adapt. Storyboarding on pencil and paper and scanning it all in isn't practical anymore. If they learned photoshop they won't use storyboard pro, which is literally the easiest program in the world. They're the creepy incels of the 90s and they still hit on the 20 year old production girls and creep them out. The good ones will both adapt to the new ways and pass on their knowledge of the old ways. It's not fricking hard not to be a "back in my day" guy but you'd really think it is.
Milton is kind of a crybaby but he is right, old people have a hard time getting jobs in the industry but I believe it is a problem of personality and speed. They are slower, want bigger paychecks, and are even less talented than artists found on the street. Not that they don't deserve the work but it's the truth.
>and are even less talented than artists found on the street.
I sure wish I could see some of that talent in modern American animation outside of the CG stuff.
Youtube ? Milton has been trying to make a 10 second short film for years and hasn't done shit while some random youtuber made a full length episode. Old people are slower
>Youtube ?
Is that a joke?
youtube has a lot of talent
The question is how much of it is American.
>even less talented than artists found on the street
But that's also the people getting jobs.
To be honest, if Milton drew more appealing art he would probably get more commissions.
Why don’t/didn’t(?) animators like these go and make their own studio like Chaplain and Fairbanks did when they made United Artists?