>According to reputable insider Daniel Richtman, Marvel Studios decided that the film’s action scenes were neither big nor satisfying enough compared to the franchise's previous installments. Three major setpieces have been scrapped and new versions will be film between January and May 2024. The scope of these sequences – in addition to the scheduling of the film’s cast – is the reason for the extended length of the reshoots, and the movie’s release shift to February 2025 is to give the post-production process a wider berth and avoid the SFX problems that have been plaguing recent MCU productions.
https://comicbookmovie.com/captain-america/captain-america-new-world-order/captain-america-brave-new-world---new-details-emerge-about-why-marvel-studios-delayed-the-movie-a207942
Where are these Quality Control people DURING the movie production? Why do they wait until after the movie is fully filmed already, then watch it, then decide reshoots are necessary?
Most films review the footage taken and a a day then reshooting then.
Why is Disney wasting all this time and money for post-production reshoots?
If the issues are cg effects that isn't a feasible timetable.
Because that’s literally how MCU has always been done, with a few exceptions. They start shooting without having a finished script, shoot whatever they feel like and then hope shit can be fixed in post-production.
they've winged it since Iron Man, Iron Man worked because Jon Favreau knows what he's doing and sadly they haven't really realized they need a fully thought out script before they shoot by this point.
Disney these days seems to want to grab people without experience to be directors, especially these days because they need directors to look a certain way
Trouble is when you have directors without experience, no coherent plan, and executives demanding random bullshit
It's not even the directors' fault. The movie-making process at Marvel Studios has been a conveyor belt process for years. (Lucrecia Martel turned down directing Black Widow because Disney/Marvel wouldn't let her direct the action sequences). Conveniently, when the well-oiled machine machine starts to break down, Marvel is throwing its young and diverse filmmakers under the bus.
https://comicbookmovie.com/captain-marvel/the-marvels/the-marvels-another-trade-has-been-accused-of-publishing-a-hit-piece-on-director-nia-dacosta-a207951
>Lucrecia Martel turned down directing Black Widow because Disney/Marvel wouldn't let her direct the action sequences
They said if she didn’t feel confident directing the action scenes they had second unit directors who could do it, and she immediately accused them of being sexist and implying she couldn’t do action because she’s a woman.
I feel like the MCU is over and can never come back. If I were James Gunn, I'd be taking notes on what not to do. Make some real movies with some real creativity, not just painting by the numbers an executive handed you. And please don't have all the movies interconnected. You can make good standalone movies that still all share a universe. And most of all, don't pump out like 50 boring streaming shows in a year and expect people to stay excited about your franchise.
>I feel like the MCU is over and can never come back.
Don't be silly, all they need is one surefire crowd-pleaser to get back in the game, then they just need to keep it up. It'll be an uphill battle since it's become trendy to shit on Marvel, but they can pull it off.
That implies Gunn has real power at WB. He had to nod and smile while saying shit like "The Flash is the greatest superhero movie I ever saw."
Yeah but he didn't really have anything to do with that one. I'm going to wait until his own stuff starts up before I make a judgment. I do wish there was more creativity in superhero movies instead of feeling so mechanical, and I just really want to like the movies DC puts out.
I guess it used to work, but I have my doubts about how much reshoots can save anything now.
The entire pre-reshoots plot of Doctor Strange 2 leaked to Reddit (and I think there was a similar leak for The Marvels), so it's possible to compare them to the post-reshoots plot, and it seems like they really didn't change much that was fundamental, just tweaks to make characters less annoying or add more cameos.
Which makes sense, because no matter how much you reshoot, you can never really change the basic story, just stuff around it.
Maybe it worked when every MCU movie was guaranteed a certain level of success and reshoots would decide what the ceiling was. Now they need to get the story right to begin with or people won't come to see it at all.
> Doctor Strange 2 reshoots made no effort to fix the frick up of Wanda, because they regarded her as expendable (they were focused on Carol, She Hulk, Shuri, as their female leads).
>Now they need to get the story right to begin with or people won't come to see it at all.
It makes you wonder how many test audiences over the last 2 years were trying to tell Disney "scrap this entire movie and start over" because the story sucked on a conceptual level and nobody wanted to see that happen, but too much money had been spent on it, all they can do is tweak it with reshoots and editing.
That's one thing where it actually leaked out that test audiences complained about it, and Disney chose to interpret it as "we need more explanation for why she's a villain" rather than listen to the people telling them DO NOT DO THIS. They don't really seem aware of the mistake at all.
They did fine changing civil war to fit the MCU, Wanda didn't need the "Woman goes crazy because she can't handle her power" plot, and I'm surprised they did it considering their usual politics. I'd have preferred she just be possessed by the darkhold as she attempted to recover her children.
Civil war for many was a major misstep and the comic, as imperfect as it is, is MUCH better than the film.
The entire “fight in a parking lot” meme overshadows most of the rest of the film.
The story ends with Cap giving up and letting Tony become a fascist, Christ this attempt to rewrite history is pathetic.
The movie is dog shit anon, I’m sorry to be mean to your precious MCU but grow up. The comic actually has stakes, actually treats the characters as characters. The MCU version could have and should have been titled something else. I’m so sick of you autistic fricks being so disingenuous that I’m put in the awful position of defending Millar.
the comic shat on tony so badly tony himself had to rewrite his mind so he could keep going
The movie has him act like a massive fricking moron on multiple accounts. In no world can anyone but a discussion generating shill side with him on the accords, locking his friends up, or trying to kill Bucky.
Fricking stop.
And again it has no business being named after something it doesn’t even attempt to adapt. That’s a MAJOR problem with comic book movies in general, Hollywood’s reluctance to pay direct residuals and writers fees to the original creators by instead rewriting everything and using the company owned branding.
The movie has him making mistakes, the comic has him be an actively bad person. Keep up.
The movie has him completely ditching his own characterization and unwilling to accept HE as the reason for every problem to then blame and lock everyone else up. You cannot deride the comic without deriding the film.
Why is he responsible for HYDRA, Wanda's actions, the shit that led to Wanda's actions (HYDRA again), the Hulk rampaging, Rogers not coming clean about the WS right away, Loki? How is he responsible for everything?
He at most is responsible for 30% of Ultron.
Yeah but here there was a reason for us to care, in the comic Tony's cool with betraying friends he's known for decades men and women who have taught him, who's he's fought alongside, because of some stupid kids.
>Trust the government with all of your secret identities, absolutely nothing will go wrong
>Norman Osborne becomes head of superhero stuff
>IMMEDIATELY tries to abuse his power and search the registry without a court order.
>One entrant:Tony Stark, aka. Iron Man
>Turns out Tony didn't even trust the government and put all the data in his head.
I miss fraction im
did you miss seeing tony having to wienerworship otto's tentacles and never paying him back for putting him in that position?
Yes it has stakes but drops it for the stupidest thing possible, everyone acts like an idiot and the side that everyone thought was fricking stupid won.
I don't even like the movie but pretending the comic wasn't complete dog shit is just moronic.
>Civil war
>much better than the film
No.
I don't think the film is all that great, but it is absolutely better than the comic, on the grounds that its version of the story doesn't involve incredibly wild character assassination that requires every single member of the cast to turn into an angry moron incapable of making sane, rational decisions or sitting down and simply talking a disagreement out with their friends/colleagues.
Oh I read the comics, anon. But thanks for getting angry out of nowhere and just ignoring that we were talking about the crap CGI across the MCU as a whole so that you can act high and mighty on a Taiwanese fishing forum.
I'd have loved more than anything for She-Hulk to have actually been a decent comedy about a fun, sexy green amazon superhero who massively enjoys being a fun, sexy green amazon. But they went and tried to make a legal comedy for wine aunts and hired a writers room who were self-admittedly incapable of writing either a legal drama or a comedy.
>Wanda didn't need the "Woman goes crazy because she can't handle her power" plot, and I'm surprised they did it considering their usual politics.
Hollywood-style liberalism does not apply to a pre-feminist character like Wanda who wants babies and a normal suburban life. That type of woman is "weak," a "strong" woman is a stoic badass or at least a cop like Monica.
Obviously not everyone believes this, the creator of WandaVision didn't, but to the people in a Disney boardroom it seems completely logical that as long as they have enough strong, badass women then it's not a problem sacrificing one.
You could even tell that MoM was written in such a way to head off typical, box-checking criticisms of its politics, e.g. it's OK because Wanda doesn't need a man to stop her, she stops herself. All distracting from the main point that you can, in fact, be sexist against old-fashioned women (which I think actual feminists would agree on, but this is Disney executive feminism).
I think the idea is that, for whatever reason, Disney/Marvel didn't think anything had gone desperately wrong with their filmmaking process until very recently.
Remember, these are the people that thought Quantumania would be a beloved hit. I'm guessing these reshoots, and all the other delays they announced as well, are the direct result of Marvel Studios waking up and taking a closer look at what they're actually putting out instead of just blindly assuming it'll be good because they're doing what they did before.
>for whatever reason
>acting like the flops of Quantumania and the Marvels were always the norm
Yeah gee why they never asked themselves what was wrong
The point is that they never even CONSIDERED anything was wrong until Quantumania actually failed both critically and commercially, when even the most dedicated MCU fanboys would probably agree that there was rot setting in as early after Endgame as Black Widow or Eternals.
More discerning/critical viewers would argue that what's making current MCU films so shitty are elements that have always been there in some form since at least 2015/6 and they'd be entirely correct
That's correct. People talk about woke stuff but that's a red herring.
I would argue it’s the opposite. Nobody actually cares about the CGI. The critics never liked these films/projects and yet because they praised them before need to find reasoning to be shitting on them now.
The commercial failure is definitely due to abandoning straight white dudes,the largest segment of cape consoomers. The critical failures are them grasping at straws with “le CGI” because they never praised them for it.
No critic is going to point out the all female line up moment in endgame was cringe. They won’t say that the writing and direction in the marvels is awful. They just say it’s fun and light and yada yada yada. For she-hulk they decided they could agree the CGI was off and it was paced poorly and felt too inconsequential.
But really all of it would have done gangbusters if it was for the one market segment that shows up for capeshit. These are action movies, always were. Straight dudes of all races are the audience of action movies, they want big booms and big boobs. Explosions and T&A. You can only treat action and sexuality as secondary so much before that audience decides it isn’t for them.
>straight white guys
It doesn't take long for you to rear your ugly little head.
>consoomer
And there it is. A whole lot of words to ultimately say nothing.
>I can’t debate this so I’ll just turn to ad hominem attacks
I accept your concession
There's nothing to concede. Grow up and quit using baby words.
>I continue to concede but I will do so ungraciously
Awfully juvenile anon.
You can't shame your way into an audience. It's not as though non-White guys want to see feminism slop either.
Funny thing is I literallymsaid straight guys of all races are the audience for action films. She didn’t read that far before sperging out.
>No critic is going to point out the all female line up moment in endgame was cringe.
That moment was definitely cringe, but if a movie has one or two moments like that then it's not a dealbreaker for normal people. I didn't even dislike Captain Marvel. I still won't see this new one though because I no longer feel like I've got to go see all those movies. The overarching story is repulsive to me now, I hate multiverse shit, and the Disney+ shows are so boring. I just don't care anymore.
>Nobody actually cares about the CGI.
People certainly care when it gets as bad as the end of Black Panther or in Quantumania. And it's not just the quality of the CGI, since something like Thanos can look pretty good if they spend time and effort on it, but the general overuse of it throughout every MCU movie has definitely gotten tiresome for the audience at large.
She-hulk cannot exist without it. How can you call it overuse when there are entire characters that cannot exist without it? These movies are not and never were for audiences who hate CGI.
>She-hulk cannot exist without it. How can you call it overuse when there are entire characters that cannot exist without it?
She totally could. Alternatively, they could also just have made sure the CGI in the show centred around a CGI character actually LOOKED good.
I'm not saying they shouldn't use CGI at all. Obviously, that would be stupid and we'd just be back to Lou Ferrigno running round in green bodypaint. What I AM saying is that A) most of the MCU's CGI these days is distinctly subpar, or at the very least blatantly digital, and used mostly just to cut corners, which is especially egregious considering that they're meant to be big tentpole blockbusters that are the pinnacle of Hollywood franchising and B) how that subpar quality directly corresponds to the fact that all their SFX shots are contracted out to countless freelance CG studios in India or wherever shortly before the film/show is due to be finalised, which forces those myriad CG companies into this permanent cycle of rushing to get their sections of the next MCU project done lest they lose the business of the biggest franchise in the world.
And this is just the CGI side of things. I haven't even talked about the problems I have with all the crap creative decisions they've made in the past several years.
>She totally could.
There isn’t a single WNBA player pretty enough or talented to play the character. She-hulk is 7 feet tall and looks like a super model.
Just posting that image tells me you’re moronic.
The problem with the she-hulk show was the writing and casting dictated by feige who is deathly afraid of sexuality thanks to corners of the internet saying shit like they overly sexualized widow in IM2 and avengers.
She-Hulk should appeal to straight men. She should not directly appeal to women. Female characters are not only for female audiences. She is the T&A character that makes fun of T&A, the character that asks why the writers keep making her fight dumb villains but then goes on to fight them in spectacular ways.
I’m so fricking sick of you homosexuals who don’t read comics trying to diagnose why the adaptations didn’t work.
Execs want full control of products and to change things last minutes to their whim or remove what the previous exec had
That’s the main reason traditional 2d got abandoned for CGI: you are able to change everything very late like with Frozen 2 and aren’t locked into a set sequence like when a full 2d animation is made
Honestly a lot of movies for decades have had stuff like this happen. Either test audiences don't like something or studio execs want something different. Just look at movies with deleted scenes, director's cuts, and various horror stories about stuff going on behind the scenes. Only difference here is that the changes are going to cost a lot more money.
I know. But these latest Disney MCU things sound close to reshooting 60% or more of the movies they make.
change of the company hierarchy. Also probably the investors asked for it.
This ritchmam guy is a shill as well. We'll never get the real reasons for why this was pushed back if it comes down to having to listen to guys like this. He dilbertly glosses over fact that the movie wasn't positively received in test screenings.
You clearly don’t understand how much editing impacts how a movie flows and works or doesn’t work. You can watch individual takes all day and think it’s good but unless you know how to edit them all together in a way that flows well and makes the story engaging it’s going to suck.
Also Marvel does its action scenes entirely detached from the rest of the production and has someone else direct them. They’re also At various stages of development so it’s entirely up in the air what you end up with.
And there’s way more scrutiny now that they’ve had couple of underperforming flops in a row.
You say all this as if its not basically in line with anons point; their process is moronic, too segmented and way to reliant on committee approaches. And not just marvel but all of Disney.
This for
there is no way to see how a scene looks right after shooting it. all character interactions are recorded in interior with green screen walls and they have to wait for the indian studios to complete and send in the CGI months later
How much money is Disney burning on all their properties thanks to piss poor management and quality control?
It's gotta be an unreasonable amount
it's not going to do well no matter what they do
people don't want to see new falcon
they want to see chris evans do cool shit
having someone new come along and wear the suit comes off like "hey i'm chris evans now!"
i get that's what they do in the comics but the comics don't have celebrities playing them, movie going audience is different and want different things
it doesn't help that anthony mackie plays the driest character ever, he can be fun, go watch twisted metal he can actually be a cool character
>it doesn't help that anthony mackie plays the driest character ever
i blame the writers for not having more fun with Falcon, he had his moments in phase 2 and 3. the Falcon Winter Soldier show absolutely sucked all the fun out of him.
The biggest misstep in the world was attempting to make TFATWS anything more than dumb fun. By trying to get political they immediately turned it to shit.
Frankly even including Isaiah Bradley at all was as political as they should ever have gotten. And to be quite honest, that character was always a moronic retcon who only serves to undermine Steve’s existence and make him into some sort of “Elvis ripped off the black artists” white guilt analogy.
That show was boring as hell even without the cringe political shit. At least I had a good chuckle at the "DO BETTER SENATOR" scene
Much of the MCU is lackluster but it wasn’t divisive. The more they’ve tried to get topical the more divisive it’s gotten - which has always been the case in media. Political comedians, particularly those with a clear slant, always have as many detractors as they do supporters.
I have a feeling that's part of the fallout of excising the bioweapon plot. They cut out a large part of the terrorist plot, so they come across as more ineffective. Hence the hasty rewrite to "don't call them terrorists" and "do better senator".
It always felt like the "don't call them terrorists" and all the scenes where Sam's making excuses for them must have been filmed pre-Covid, when the plot was about them stealing vaccines that governments were withholding from people, and they never bothered to reconcile those scenes with the new plot of the Flag Smashers being more overtly irredeemable terrorists.
It seems like Feige was convinced it's the one story she's known for, social media casuals probably reinforced this conviction, and they never saw her as a popular or important character so thought they'd get away with it without anyone caring. As she gradually got more and more popular he never once reconsidered the plan, which should be considered a warning about how stubbornly he'll stick to any other plans that aren't going over well with audiences, like Kang and the Multiverse.
Yeah, my guess is that whatever changes they'll make to the MCU will be fairly minimal. The Disney+ explosion affected the CGI side of thing, but stuff like misreading Wanda's popularity speaks to more fundimental problems. It's absolutely bizarre that they didn't realize people liked her, or that sticking with a riff on the Disassembled plot wouldn't be popular (it wasn't popular in the comic--people just liked the New Avengers, not how they came about).
I think what happened with Wanda is down to the fact that Scarlet Witch didn't really get popular until Wandavision, by which point they were already well into Multiverse of Madness. So either Marvel didn't realise that she was their most popular heroine until Dr Strange 2 came out, or they only found out how popular Scarlet Witch was when they were already fully committed to having her as a villain and couldn't course-correct in response.
I don't think this is just due to covid, either. They were trying to up their output to a ridiculous 3/4 movies a year plus assorted disney+ shows back during Wandavision and Dr Strange 2, so combine that with the fact that they shoot these films years before they actually release and that means they were probably locked in on Evil Scarlet Witch before Wandavision was even released.
Wanda is practically their only feminine character left, and she has such a tragic life as it is. OF COURSE EVERYONE WOULD LOVE HER!!
You have to remember that, before Wandavision, Scarlet Witch was just a side character who'd had one or two good scenes.
>Age of Ultron: spends most of the movie being a villain before the third act switch, has one good scene where she tears Ultron's heart out
>Civil War: accidentally causes the plot, but is otherwise unmemorable outside of some corset shots and doing a cute scrunchy face when she says "paprikash" (pic related)
>Infinity War: the one where the audience goes, "oh she's fricking the robot now," and then there's that great scene where she kills said robot just to watch Thanos resurrect him and kill him again
>Endgame: "you took everything from me" is the only thing she does in the movie
And that's it. Before her show she was very much a C-tier character when it came to the MCU, B-tier if I'm being generous, and it was the same for Vision. There might have been the occasional cosplay, but people weren't exactly lining up on the streets just to see Scarlet Witch in the next Avengers. Wandavision very much brought both of them into the spotlight.
>OF COURSE EVERYONE WOULD LOVE HER!!
See, your problem is assuming that modern Hollywood producers and executives are capable of making good, smart creative decisions.
>was on bench for six years
>become popular after her first big arc
I don't understand your point at all.
The point is that she was a side character who was just kind of there for 6 years, then she became popular with her first time in the limelight, and then right after that Marvel Studios didn't respond to the change in popularity at all.
It didn't matter that she was feminine or tragic, because they didn't register it until it was too late.
The writer of Strange 2 (who wrote it from scratch with Raimi during the 2020 lockdowns) did mention that WandaVision's popularity explosion happened while they were filming it, and they said something like "and we're turning her into the Terminator, I hope we made the right decision."
Basically I think they treated WandaVision as a quirky side project, something that happened because Feige loved sitcoms and because it was sort of a gift to Olsen and Bettany after being screwed over in Endgame (Wanda was written out after the original drafts, and Vision wasn't even mentioned by name in the whole film). A combination of freakish circumstances like the pandemic, along with it actually being more individual and less cookie-cutter than most MCU projects, turned it into a flagship project, but in 2020 it made sense that if Raimi wanted to do something that conflicted with WandaVision, the big movie would get priority over the goofy little TV show.
They probably tell themselves it was OK because MoM made a lot more money than the MCU projects after it, but of course MoM was building off the hype from two projects audiences actually liked (WandaVIsion and No Way Home), and being such a mean-spirited, divisive movie helped lead to the loss of interest in the MCU.
That's a good assessment, anon. Have a Lizzie
>Wandavision very much brought both of them into the spotlight.
you now reminded me how, when I went to see Strange 2 opening night, there were several women cosplaying as Wanda (in a crowd that might've had Marvel/MCU shirts, but otherwise weren't cosplaying as the characters)
In hindsight, it's kind of a bittersweet memory
I wish Marvel Studios (and modern Disney as a whole, really) were more transparent about their creative processes, because I REALLY want to know how something like pic related managed to make it to the screen without anybody going
>Hey, isn't it a little bit morally dubious for our brand new Captain America to descend from the heavens gently cradling the body of a terrorist leader who bombed innocent people and intended to bomb more until she got her way, and then passionately defend her actions and justifications to the very group of people she was literally just trying to kill?
By Any Means Necessary, anon!
the answer to whether it's dubious or not would have been No.
These morons think victimhood is a blank check, moral wise.
This is why Tarantino's "no one cares about Chris Evans they care about Captain America" speech was bullshit. Evans, Hemsworth, and Downey were absolutely the stars, you can't just shove someone else in their costume and expect people to care.
>Most films review the footage taken and a day then reshooting then.
No, they don’t. Reshoots normally happen after a rough cut is tested internally and/or publically, depending on the type of movie you’re working with.
>what are dailies
Anon, reshoots happen on tent poles because of focus groups. Most movies are not tent poles. Stop being such a MCU brainrotted zombie. Films are typically not made by committee.
This is a thread about a blockbuster, so I'm obviously addressing the blockbuster way of doing things. Quit being pedantic.
Quit being a massive fricking homosexual defending assembly line garbage as if it leads to quality films you fricking shill who can’t even use the fricking site properly. Anons comment was specifically pointing to why their movies aren’t like real films.
Fact of the matter is these movies are dogshit because they’re made by committee, shown to a different committee and then remade sometimes to be completely different. Ben Mendelssohn said Rogue One didn’t resemble the film he had worked on at all when he saw it at the premier. He’s not alone. Disney’s problem is a lack of confidence and thus their films for the better part of the last decade have been mish mashed film versions of frankstein’s monster.
Calm down, Marty.
>m-m-Marty teeheee
That fact that you think that’s a derogatory is ridiculous but also the fact that he’s the only actual director you homosexuals know is worse. He has like 6 good films, none made in the last 20 years.
>This is a thread about a blockbuster
You call "Most films" blockbusters?
>Marvel Studios decided that the film’s action scenes were neither big nor satisfying enough
Honest question, does anyone actually care if a CG action sequence is "big" enough anymore? I'm jaded as hell with CGI action, and the last couple of DC in particular broke me. I'm just done with it.
Michael Fassbender trashing some guy's house in The Killer was tense. The slow zoom in to Javier Bordem's eyes in No Country for Old Men was tense. The MCU does not need bigger set pieces. They need to fix everything leading up to the set piece so that the fight matters.
Sounds like you just want what the homosexuals call "kee-no". Why are you here instead of posting on the homosexuals' board?
I’d argue exactly the opposite. These are action films, they shouldn’t appeal to you. You shouldn’t want them to. Go watch actual films you massive fricking homosexual. And stop acting like NCFOM or, of all things, The Killer are spectacular.
You’re honestly a complete fricking pseud, likely in your 20s just finally getting into things that aren’t steeped in childish fantasy. Read no country for old men and you’ll find the film lacking. In short, grow the frick up and stop asking for action films to do what you are incapable of doing.
>Honest question, does anyone actually care if a CG action sequence is "big" enough anymore?
That's just the excuse that puts the blame on the SFX contractors and off of the execs who approved everything beforehand, including what appears to be a lackluster script.
Benson and Moorehead needed no reshoots on Loki S2.
ngl its kinda a miracle they didn't need to.
MCU shills are the worst. Holy shit.
don't bother. as soon as people started arguing with him using facts, he dropped out of reply chains
>You need to stop calling them terrorists.
Unironically, the way someone talks about these people is very revealing as to whether they have a soul or not.