Adventures is a much better show. It's not as well animated, but the writing is snappier and it's got a better batting average despite having way more episodes. SatAM is the kind of poorly written adventure serial that created a stigma around American cartoons for decades. What it wants to be is pretty solid, but the scripts are lousy and it's poorly choreographed. It also does an awful job utilizing its cast. Nobody would remember it if it wasn't Sonic, while Adventures would probably be remembered by hobbyists in the same way Twisted Tales of Felix and Robot Jones are.
They've got a lot in common and the stories practically write themselves. I could see their chemistry being great too. I'm more of a Manic x Scourge fan myself though
SatAM is way better >better opening >way better Robotnik >more wacky and reminiscent of the Sonic games in terms of aesthetic >not held back by a bunch of dumb fanfiction furry companions no one gives a shit about >iconic bird and robot henchmen >I'm waaaaaaaiting
Also the objectively best Sonic cartoon is the OVA. Probably the only time they got it right in terms of adapting the franchise into animation. Every other attempt is too much of a meme.
> the OVA
Hugely overrated tbqh. Only put on a pedestal because it
1. Is Japanese but not complete ass, otherwise unheard of for adaptations of Sonic, and
2. Did the smartest thing anyone’s ever done with a Sonic CD adaptation and removed the pink Poochie
A lot of people people would have to rate it for it to be considered "overrated". How can it be overrated when most people don't even know about it. It's an obscure 90's OVA that hasn't been rereleased in over 20 years.
>Did the smartest thing anyone’s ever done with a Sonic CD adaptation and removed the pink Poochie
Only to add an even bigger Poochie in the stupid annoying cat girl nobody likes.
Honestly, the OVA is carried hard by Metal Sonic. He's got some cool animation stuff like gif related, great shots that highlight how cool his design is, and some interesting (if not underused) ideas, like having Sonic's personality.
>like having Sonic's personality.
That's only at the end when they're linked. The people who think Metal is anything like Sonic in any media aside from looks, being fast and enjoying a good race, are complete morons.
The OVA has some big writing and pacing problems, but you're right that it's the closest in tone to the games while also being the best standalone animation. Really wish they had cut a few elements and made it a bit more straightforward: it probably would have been picked up as a proper TV show.
>pacing problems
I feel like this isn't much of an issue considering how short the length of the animation is. If it was feature length, I'd be more willing to agree but it's barely 50 minutes long.
That's what I'm saying. The short length means that's not as much of an issue, but it's still a problem and probably part of why it didn't get greenlit as a show. It's too lethargic for a proper TV anime that isn't a manga adaptation.
They definitely could’ve fit it all into 20 minutes instead of an hour.
The biggest thing we missed out was the potential for them to write new original things like new characters of their island base, for a full series.
Nothing holds a candle to the Sonic comics published by Archie comics. >Fully fleshed-out worldbuilding >Three-dimensional characters with character arcs >Countless new characters, lands, and adventures >Ran for a really long time with several spin-off comic series
Archie was fricking DOGSHIT and the worst sonic thing ever written by far
The beginning and end of all its “worldbuilding” was two neckbeards fighting over an origin story for Echidnas
All the characters were two-dimensional and static, and their only “character arcs” were being shat on or jacked off depending on if the author self-inserts as them
The new characters were dogshit deviantart-tier coldsteel ocs who had no place in any sonic story
Running for 200 issues (because it released slow and its shills are standardless consoomers) is not a merit
I much prefer AoStH; funnier, self-contained, and I liked its generally more positive atmosphere, even as a kid, to how grim SatAM felt. I think SatAM could've had a good thing going for it, if it was allowed to go on longer and maybe handled its plot better, but for what it simply is, I'm not all that drawn to it anymore. It's really too bad that Sonic just can't seem to get a (somewhat serious/serialized) cartoon out without something jank happening to it
Wes Weasley is pretty much always funny when he shows up; it's a simple, overdone archetype but a sleazy, money-hungry scammer almost always leads to funny interactions
I thought I would hate Underground but I love the villain duo and Sonic's dialogue is like a more refined version of how he speaks in Satam since his one liners in Underground are better and more topical to whatever is happening.
Adventures is more entertaining I find but I appreciate SatAM for the effort it put into it's worldbuilding, even though the trends at the time would handicap it in many ways.
I'd go with this. SatAM was too blinded by 80s ideas of how to construct an adventure serial and fell behind the curve when other shows were handling it better. If it executed its ideas well, it would have been great.
SatAM S1 > the good AoStH episodes > SatAM S3 > the bad AoStH episodes
The problem with AoStH being a weekday syndicated show is that it has more good episodes and bad episodes individually than SatAM had total, so if you're going in blind it's a dice roll which kind of episode you're getting.
I agree with splitting them up like this, Satam season 1 was excellent then season 2 came and Antoine fricking murdered any scene he was in, the animation didn't feel as good for some reason, the setting gave me Archie flashbacks in a bad way, and the episodes as good as season 1 were few and far between.
Yeah. They tried to make it more story driven but failed to actually make the season's arc narrative engaging.
Both are more watchable than Underground and X.
I feel like both of them are more extreme versions of SatAM's failings. Conceptually, both are strong, even as weird as they are. They just get stuck in a rut of having to follow the episodic template created for them, have a lot of really bad animation compromises, and are forced to have terrible pacing to counterbalance their length. If both were 13 episodes in their entirety and cut a few things, they'd probably be better shows.
X started and ended pretty good, a lot of the middle is shit though. It was cool just for the novelty of it being the Adventure era stuff but in an anime.
I watched AoStH after school and SatAM on weekends. I looked forward more to SatAM but AoStH kept me entertained while I waited for Saturday. AoStH is the delicious appetizer while SatAM was the main course.
Weird complaint when it's universally agreed that Long John Baldry was the better Robotnik. Jim Cummings was the better voice actor obviously, but Baldry was clearly the better Robotnik with the better voice. It's so iconic that barely anyone even remembers the other version.
Anon is saying it's weird that they got Chalk for Underground while reusing the SatAM design. I think it's just a matter of schedules and budget. Chalk's good at what he does.
If it was so good why did it end?
A bunch of reasons.
People like to simplify, but it's a really uneven book. A lot of good and bad in there. The parts people like to hate on aren't as bad as they make it out to be and the good bits aren't as amazing as people say. I think the book would have been better off with more writer diversity over the years.
It's funny how he's stuck around with the franchise. Started off playing Grounder in AOSTH and now he plays Commander Olive Garden in the Sonic movies.
Nothing holds a candle to the Sonic comics published by Archie comics. >Fully fleshed-out worldbuilding >Three-dimensional characters with character arcs >Countless new characters, lands, and adventures >Ran for a really long time with several spin-off comic series
I find both of them mediocre. AOSTH was just a poor man’s looney tunes. It poisoned the minds of a generation into thinking Sonic is supposed to be a goofy cartoon instead of a shonen hero. How the frick do you write a multi-part story about the Chaos Emeralds and not have Sonic turn Super at any point?
SatAM captured the tone of the games better but it still had plenty of problems. The cast was super bloated. The show’s version of Antoine and Dulcie were totally worthless and are just lame comic relief, Ant gets actual character development in the comics but in SatAM he’s just a cheap dated stereotype. Rotor and Bunnie literally accomplish nothing. The show would have been way stronger if it better utilized the serious elements, it felt very half-assed.
dbz shit was cringey in 2001. 23 years later, I don't think they've invented a Super Saiyan form advanced enough yet to properly show just how laughably embarrassing it is in 2024.
3 months ago
Anonymous
Cope. Literally the most famous anime of all time and sells better than Sonic and pretty most of your favorite franchises.
3 months ago
Anonymous
I used to beat up kids at school just for liking dbz. shit's so corny.
3 months ago
Anonymous
>I used to beat up children for liking things I didn't.
Must have learned it from your dad.
3 months ago
Anonymous
>i used to physically attack people for liking something i didn't
You sound like a tard.
3 months ago
Anonymous
Props to him honestly. There was a Sonicgay in my elementary school who I would kick the ass of, sometimes people need to learn not to be cringelords or else they become chris-chan.
3 months ago
Anonymous
>I used to beat up kids at school just for liking dbz.
People who like DBZ are literal athletes like myself so I doubt that
3 months ago
Anonymous
>athletes like myself
Just because you run around with your arms behind your back like a Naruto character doesn't make you an athlete. It just makes your neighbors concerned for your safety.
3 months ago
Anonymous
dbz shit was cringey in 2001. 23 years later, I don't think they've invented a Super Saiyan form advanced enough yet to properly show just how laughably embarrassing it is in 2024.
You wouldn't survive 5 seconds in Mexico with that opinion
3 months ago
Anonymous
mexico sucks
3 months ago
Anonymous
To be fair, gringos usually don't survive more than 5 seconds alone in Mexico, no matter the case
3 months ago
Anonymous
mexico sucks
3 months ago
Anonymous
Based
3 months ago
Anonymous
>someone is based for lying
Literally the average DBZ watcher would beat the frick out of you and him. These are dudes who are into tough guy shit.
3 months ago
Anonymous
DBZ fans are all mexican manlets.
Actually tough guys wouldn't watch cringey ass cartoons for autistic babies like dbz
3 months ago
Anonymous
What are some good tough guy cartoons?
3 months ago
Anonymous
Trick question, tough guys don't watch cartoons.
3 months ago
Anonymous
You just came here to laugh at us weak nerds huh!?
3 months ago
Anonymous
homie, you're on Cinemaphile
3 months ago
Anonymous
This. If you're getting pussy you don't need to retreat back to the comfort of your childhood with babby cartoons.
3 months ago
Anonymous
adventure of sonic the hedgehog
I just really really like Scratch and Grounder (and Coconuts), they're just such a great pair of spiteful little jerks unlike Orbot and Cubot.
they really are just funny and entertaining
3 months ago
Anonymous
They're just two fun guys.
Literally the only things holding Underground back were the poor animation and mandatory musical numbers. The writing was surprisingly on point, and I came to like both the bizarre character designs and even the triplets plot.
I'm inclined to agree, though I would stop short at saying the writing was good. Sometimes it was okay but it was DiC.
3 months ago
Anonymous
>most famous >sells better
So like all soulless goyslop? All you're doing is admitting it's solely normalgay shit.
You're arguing with autists. It's one of the worst things about being into comics or animation: the disconnect in understanding the craft among the most dedicated fans is massive. Even in stuff like sports, video gaming and movies, the distance between the extremes of knowledge isn't that overwhelming.
It's nearly impossible to talk about nuance in these fields because you'll inevitably be bickering with someone who's still mentally a toddler.
Black person, Goku's whole character is that he's an immature goof-off that just likes eating and being moronic. Every thing that Toriyama has created is inherently a parody of wresting, popular movies, or just some other whimsical nonsense that he thought was funny or cool. It's genuinely not an exaggeration to say that plenty of Sonic media is more serious than DB.
>Sonic was never this Sonic was always this
Sonic doesn't have a strong character identity because his corporate overlords didn't have a particularly clear vision of what they wanted from him other than "popular character"
Fricking christ, finally someone who gets it. Sonic was literally think tanked by Sega employees to be as marketable as possible, first and foremost, always changing with the trends to stay relevant.
>It poisoned the minds of a generation into thinking Sonic is supposed to be a goofy cartoon instead of a shonen hero
Because that would have never happened otherwise? I literally know people who have never watched AoStH in their lives call Sonic a cartoon character.
I mean, there's a reason why Goku and the rest of the DBZ cast are drawn as realistic(ish) human beings and not like Doraemon or Dr Slump characters.
3 months ago
Anonymous
>who is Majin Buu and Beerus
3 months ago
Anonymous
Yes, they're not all humans but you know what I'm getting at.
3 months ago
ringmaster gandalfchan
adventures was the funniest, but underground was funny too and the satam was epic, x was unromantic roboticized and its been roboticized ever since.
majin buu was many while beerus is a specific cat and human while goku is over 9000 and therefore a joke.
Sonic's identity is 'Whatever is currently popular/cool'.
actually it seems like sonic was altered by hyper metal sonic and split into shadow
What are some good tough guy cartoons?
the new adventures of batman and robin '79
the real ghostbusters
3 months ago
Anonymous
3 months ago
Anonymous
see
Okay, anon, if you think the two are mutually exclusive, I don't know what to tell you, but you are clearly speaking out of your ass.
Reminder that Dragonball started as a comedic spoof of Journey to the west, which itself was already out there to begin with.
3 months ago
Anonymous
Yes? My point isn't that DBZ is a super-duper serious comic, it's that the majority of it's style is more 'grounded' and therefore lends itself a sense of seriousness. Of course, it's very silly in it's premises in the same manner TMNT or Judge Dredd is, but it's done with a tone of sincerity and when required can be serious and 'adult'. The fact that they switch to a super-deformed style for moments of levity doesn't detract from this.
Sonic on the other hand, especially in his classic style, is a punk Felix the Cat, which is inherently either silly or cutesy in design; big eyes, big hands, simple shapes and all that. That's not to say those things are BAD but I don't think DBZ would have gone down as well with adults if all the characters looked like that. The fact that Yuji Uekawa redesigned Sonic to look more realistically proportioned (relatively speaking) is indicative of SEGA feeling this, because when you look at some of the '90s Japanese art you can tell that some at SEGA saw him as a cute mascot character rather than a serious hero.
The thing is, he can be both, and to say he's one or the other is just ignoring parts of his design or story that you don't like. In a weird way AoStH and SatAM basically distilled these two elements and took them to their extremes.
3 months ago
Anonymous
>My point isn't that DBZ is a super-duper serious comic
dragon ball is a gag manga. Z has more action but it's still a comedy. No one would ever consider it super serious.
3 months ago
Anonymous
>My point isn't that DBZ is a super-duper serious comic,
and my point is that you are factually wrong.
3 months ago
Anonymous
>My point isn't that DBZ is a super-duper serious comic
dragon ball is a gag manga. Z has more action but it's still a comedy. No one would ever consider it super serious.
Okay, *relatively* serious.
3 months ago
Anonymous
non-canon filler from toei's fanfiction
3 months ago
Anonymous
You're way too absolute on this. DBZ is very cartoony, especially compared to contemporary battle manga. It got more serious for what the anime dubbed "Z", but Toriyama's style was still very cute and iconic rather than realistic. He even started mocking readers with ideas like yours in the latter parts of the manga, turning things into big jokes just to troll them.
If Secret of NIHM can work as a self-serious work, so can Sonic. We've seen it happen. SatAM just did a poor job.
3 months ago
Anonymous
Also, I misread. You're right, he works as either. It's just the Dragon Ball does as well. And Uekawa's redesign was more about pandering to a broader western audience, which is why they toyed with making Eggman a bit grimdark.
3 months ago
Anonymous
Also, I misread. You're right, he works as either. It's just the Dragon Ball does as well. And Uekawa's redesign was more about pandering to a broader western audience, which is why they toyed with making Eggman a bit grimdark.
I agree with you, I was just pointing out the 'shortcomings' of Sonic's design when trying to convey more serious stories and themes. I used DBZ because it's what most Sonic=Shonen guys use. It's superficial I know, but you look at Goku and you look at Sonic and asked someone which was the cartoon and which was the anime character not a lot of people would say 'they're the same thing'.
3 months ago
Anonymous
Really what I'm trying to say is, people don't think Sonic is silly solely because of AoStH.
>AOSTH was just a poor man’s looney tunes. It poisoned the minds of a generation into thinking Sonic is supposed to be a goofy cartoon instead of a shonen hero.
His main antagonist is a character named Eggman who is shaped like an egg.
>The classic games have always treated Eggman as a formidable foe.
and as a joke which is what Sonic is. A joke. The whole franchise is a cartoon blue hedghog in shoes saving cute animals while fighting an egg person. Stop acting like it's this badass serious franchise. It's a goof.
>The TMNT’s main villain is a kitchen utensil.
Yeah, and the 80s cartoon was goofy shit. >Batman’s main villain is a clown.
Yeah, and his 60s TV show was goofy shit.
These brands are designed to be malleable. Saying it never was and never should be silly is asinine.
Show me when Eggman is treated like a joke in the classic games.
>Multiple bosses in the classic games are him screwing himself by being careless or an airhead. >He always runs in a silly way like it's a Tom & Jerry short. >First game ends with him getting pot-shot and angrily jumping like a crybaby on the end title card. >CD ends with him getting blown up in a funny mustache explosion after he gets beaned with a rock.
At best you can argue 2 and 3K didn't go as far as 1 and CD in making him goofy.
both 80s tmnt cartoon and 60s batman tv show are not the source material. youre just proving anon's argument that sonic wasn't seen as goofy until the cartoons. tmnt was a gritty and edgy underground comic until its cartoon. batman was based off of the shadow and other noir heroes before he became more watered down
>both 80s tmnt cartoon and 60s batman tv show are not the source material.
And Adventures isn't the source either, autist. Nobody with a brain complains that either of those shows "isn't accurate" because the source property is malleable.
3 months ago
Anonymous
You completely missed my point. Me explaining how 80s TMNT and 60s Batman are departures from the source material is drawing a comparison to how the Sonic cartoons were a departure from the source material. Neither TMNT or Batman were created as "malleable brands" but as a nature of being a long lasting IP became that over time. Nobody complains about 80s TMNT or 60s Batman because at the time they did change the brand image (such as editorial pushing the Batman comics to be more campy to line up with the show) but they didn't succeed and people accept multiple interpretations. Unfortunately the Sonic fanbase isn't as mature as capeshit fans and we still have autistic millennials who will die by the sword defending dogshit like Satam because they got their first boner to Sally Acorn.
>The classic games have always treated Eggman as a formidable foe.
No. They do treat him as formidable but also as a joke. Everyone understood this until like 5 years ago, now homosexuals think he can only be one or the other.
>Ant gets actual character development in the comics
Lol no he doesn’t, they just stop making fun of him.
Character development would be if he went on an arc to become better or had moments where he finally had to overcome his fear and became better from then onwards.
He doesn’t do any of that, there are no Antoine arcs or moments where he finds it in himself to be brave and develops, he just stops being written as the funny buttmonkey in Ian’s run and also stops participating in most adventures at all because that was his only personality. And then reboot retcons him into having superpowers because even Ian sees how useless he is in his current state. He started off as Cringer from He-Man, did nothing to develop, then ended as Cringer from He-Man.
That’s something else annoying about Sonicgays. They take the most basic of shit and try to aggrandise it as if its good or even noteworthy because they lack anything actually good or noteworthy.
>he went on an arc to become better
He actually had a few of these. There was the Map story, him nutting up to confront Geoffrey, going with Rob'O to find his father, etc. >or had moments where he finally had to overcome his fear
He had a bunch of these, and a lot of them are good stories.
You're right that he doesn't have an arc, though, and it's because the writing was inconsistent. He'd get a good story in and then revert if a writer needed him to. Each time the status quo changed for Antoine, it was after he had been off-page for years at a time. And yeah, Ian didn't use him well at all, or most of the characters for that matter.
It's less that the material wasn't there and more that the execution was schizophrenic. If you JUST went off the material presented by DeCesare, Gallagher and Bollers, there's an arc there! He has to face his fears a few times and gets a bit better about it each time, eventually gives in to his worst traits when it means getting one over on Sonic, gets chewed out by his friends for it, and then slowly starts becoming a better guy in each subsequent story. The problem is guest writers, Penders, and even Flynn don't respect this arc and have his characterization all over the place.
*Just for clarity, later Bollers and Gallagher stories undercut this arc as well. It was a comic wide problem for a lot of characters, not just any particular writer.
Thanks, glad to see some people at least are self-aware.
Yeah I wouldn't call having intermittent moments where he's allowed to participate with the others an arc. They're just intermittent moments where participates, there's no progression or change by the very end.
still preferable to Penders who only saw Sonic as comic book character first and dumped all his personal baggage into the comics
3 months ago
Anonymous
Oh, absolutely. I just meant Ian is not as good as some anons zealously claim he is.
>dumped all his personal baggage into the comics
Couldn't have put it better myself. And despite that, Penders still refuses to depart from the Sonic look in his "original" work... well, he knows the only way he will sell something... or not?
On Archie, his main focuses were tying up loose ends, creating big payoffs, and getting the fandom to like characters. This pleases readers, but it also means the quality of individual stories and the utilization of characters is secondary. You'll get stories designed more to address old stories than say something themselves. Characters will either get benched because they aren't relevant or show up for the sake of appeasement/hype/creating positivity. The characters won't really determine how stories play out and as such the past writers end up dictating what happens.
For example, Antoine was mostly vestigial by the mid 00s. Multiple writers had ignored him for long periods and his original niche didn't work anymore. Ian endeared the reader with his wedding subplot...and then he barely did anything for the next decade. Most of when he did show up was either to set up a broader change or get a response from the fans. He wasn't actually part of the story. Hell, the only Ian story I can think of where Antoine being himself mattered to the story at all was the Tails arc of Sonic Universe. A lot of the cast was like this, so you ended up getting surprisingly little out of these characters despite how long Ian was on the book.
>the quality of individual stories and the utilization of characters is secondary. You'll get stories designed more to address old stories than say something themselves. Characters will either get benched because they aren't relevant or show up for the sake of appeasement/hype/creating positivity.
Shit that's basically the state of the franchise now
3 months ago
Anonymous
Basically, yeah. Comics are more able to avoid this than games due to how frequently they release.
none of those commercials would have any change in how western audiences view sonic. the original point was satam and aotsh made people view sonic as goofy bing bing wahoo. none of the people from back then would of seen those japanese commercials until decades later if at all
>why is western sonic so wacky >because japanese sonic (the original version) is also wacky >what does that have to do with western sonic being wacky
3 months ago
Anonymous
youre completely being obtuse and missing my point on purpose. besides only game material should count and sonic in the games was never baldy mcnose hair tier shlock on the genesis
3 months ago
Anonymous
his enemy is called Eggs Man and he's a giant egg, and when he's defeated in a silly explosion his face is covered in soot and his moustache sticks out like Yosemite Sam
3 months ago
Anonymous
Do you have autism? Something can have fantastical or "cartoonish" elements without being "baldy mcnose hair bing bing wahoo!". The point is western Sonic media made people view Sonic as being goofy and childish when Sonic was never like that in the games. People seriously thought Sonic Colors was a return to form at the time which is ridiculous.
3 months ago
Anonymous
>baldy mcnose hair
How did Adventuregays get so mindbroken by this line when it's only been said like 3 times.
3 months ago
Anonymous
Go back to fapping to your cringey archie OCs millennial basedbaby. It's CHADow's year
so you're basically admitting you entire stance is based on your own delusion an desired narrative, rather than what the franchise is actually like. Ok then
>It poisoned the minds of a generation into thinking Sonic is supposed to be a goofy cartoon instead of a shonen hero. How the frick do you write a multi-part story about the Chaos Emeralds and not have Sonic turn Super at any point?
Both shows were made before Super Sonic and the shonenification of the games.
You know, as bad as Sonic Underground is, there is some pretty morbid stuff in it. Take the Speed-Bot from the episode "Winner Fakes All". Robotnik built this thing by roboticizing the fastest mobians on the planet. Think about it, not only did Robotnik turn innocent civilians into robots and strip them of their free will, but also dismembered them and cannibalized them into this Frankenstein's creation of a robot.
Roboticization in Underground always seemed way harsher since the victims usually ended up cyborgs
What are some other underrated AoStH chars you like anons? no Katella, too well known, i mean lesser known
Just Komometz for me. If I had to pick an obscure Sonic Underground character (that hasn't been used by Tamers), I'd pick Aman-Rapi
Archie Sonic was great. I love that 2/3rds of it was Sonic desperately trying to find a place to cram his blue furry wiener.
AoStH was way hornier
>Jim Cummings >Bad
It's weird that we've never had a bad Robotnik VA. Even the one in the OVA was decent
The reason why Robotnik is awesome is because he is a giant fricking joke. I love that lovable goofball. Look at him stomp on the end screen like a toddler throwing a big ole tantrum.
You know, as bad as Sonic Underground is, there is some pretty morbid stuff in it. Take the Speed-Bot from the episode "Winner Fakes All". Robotnik built this thing by roboticizing the fastest mobians on the planet. Think about it, not only did Robotnik turn innocent civilians into robots and strip them of their free will, but also dismembered them and cannibalized them into this Frankenstein's creation of a robot.
Literally the only things holding Underground back were the poor animation and mandatory musical numbers. The writing was surprisingly on point, and I came to like both the bizarre character designs and even the triplets plot.
>Literally the only things holding Underground back were the poor animation
Everyone says this yet can't point to a single scene besides the knuckles one. The animation was fine besides that one episode being rushed yet somehow that became the legacy of the show.
Sonic Heroes and Shadow the Hedgehog are rather flawed, but compared to Sonic X (which aired at the same time as those games came out), they aren't too incompetent.
Epoch is such an odd little game, for such an early fan-game for the GBA of all things, it's such a spectacle that it runs and looks as well as it does and the level design as simple as it is still really holds up (IMO) but all of the potential is pissed away with iffy writing, bugs and clunky controls.
It's interesting how in the absence of Amy they decided that female hedgehogs would follow the dichotomy of cartoon characters of 'squat rounded male and hot tall curvy female'. Then we all found out it was just Mickey and Minnie dynamics.
The Sonic games were awful shit but these two shows were both all right back in the day. It's funny because the Mario games are amazing but the cartoons are all awful shit.
Back in 2006, I chose Nintendo, so, I was not able to play Sonic 06. I only watched the cutscenes and the occasional playthrough.
Was not very impressed, to be honest, the setting seemed like a very cool idea, but there was something off. So, to this day, I don't really understand the crazy love or the absolute hate for this game.
Word of advice regarding recommending 06: recommend the PC version instead.
The absolute hate is simply because it's a shitty game. Terrible gameplay, terrible graphics, terrible art style, nonsensical story.
The crazy love is, simply, it's a Sonic game. No matter how bad it is, there will be a contingent of autists who proclaim it's actually misunderstood genius. Same thing happened with Chronicles, same thing happened with Forces, even Boom has its fans and that has the double-whammy of being both crap and an attempted binning of everything the fanbase previously loved.
>The absolute hate is simply because it's a shitty game.
No, it's because there was massive hype for next gen Sonic and the redemption after Heroes and Shadow, only for it to release in a literal alpha state and be an even bigger blow to Sonic's reputation than both combined. If it released today it would be no big deal with people even saying it's a soulful return to form, but back then AAA games that released that broken were a big deal.
He's most likely referring to Project '06, the fan-made Unity recreation of Sonic 06
3 months ago
Anonymous
One has to wonder why Sega just doesn't release all their 6th and 7th Gens games in Steam. Not everyone will buy them, aside from Sonicgays who already are aware of their many issues, so they don't even need to fix them.
3 months ago
Anonymous
Funny how it turns the worst entry into the best with some simple minor complete overhauls
3 months ago
Anonymous
>Yes, if we fix all the things wrong with this game it becomes good.
In all seriousness, I have to give props to the dedication of some Sonic fans.
>there was massive hype for next gen Sonic and the redemption after Heroes and Shadow
Ok, a little story: Not going to lie, back in the day, when I was very invested in Sonic after playing SA and SA2, I knew this girl who considered herself a Sonic Savvy in one of the forums I frequented (alright, I'll confess my dark past, it was DA).
She loathed Heroes and Shadow (even though she never played them in the first place) and would constantly talk shit about any Sonic game or spin-off post SA2.
While I liked Heroes and Shadow for their story, and didn't consider them excellent games but OK to mediocre ones, her comments always rubbed the wrong way. Then, the first trailers for Sonic 06 came around and, yeah, she began talking how this game was going to be the redemption of Sonic and such. She was such an unpleasant person I secretly wished Sonic 06 would fail, just so she would have to eat her own words.
By the time Sonic 06 was released, I already distanced myself from such groups and never played the game, so I never got to see her reaction. Years later, I found out what a disaster Sonic 06 was overall, which made me laugh about how my wish ultimately came true without me ever finding out.
>If it released today it would be no big deal with people even saying it's a soulful return to form
Broseph, even today games that release as buggy and garbage as 06 did are rightfully clowned on. Say what you want about the average boring AAA reviewer-bait, but at least they're polished. Not even Starfield, release Cyberpunk, and Suicide Squad were as bad as 06 and all three of those got rightfully shit on.
Hell even Forces was more polished than 06, and that was literally the worst first-party Sonic game since 06.
06 was just complete garbage from top to bottom, it's that simple.
I played the PS3 version, so my experience is going to be worse than others. It's grindingly dull, more than anything, even without the loading times and the jankness it's a very repetitive platformer where you spend far too long farting about hitting robots with health bars (never a good thing in Sonic games in my opinion). And whereas Sonic Heroes was bright and colourful and weird, 06 manages to take Venice, one of the most interesting cities in the world, and make it about as appealing as Hull or New Jersey. The best parts are when you're playing as Sonic, Shadow or Blaze, where the combat and movement is the most straightforward, just mash homing attack several times to blow up the fire monster. Dull, not even Sonic Man can save it.
The absolute hate is simply because it's a shitty game. Terrible gameplay, terrible graphics, terrible art style, nonsensical story.
The crazy love is, simply, it's a Sonic game. No matter how bad it is, there will be a contingent of autists who proclaim it's actually misunderstood genius. Same thing happened with Chronicles, same thing happened with Forces, even Boom has its fans and that has the double-whammy of being both crap and an attempted binning of everything the fanbase previously loved.
I think it's a case of a game made by people who should know better; people never expect something made by Slavjank developers like Big Rigs Over the Road Racing to be a masterpiece and so no-one really cares other than bad game connoisseurs. However SEGA is one of the biggest video game companies in the world and somehow they okayed a mediocre snooze-fest despite having made some perfectly fun if somewhat flawed 3D titles before. Because it's Sonic it will forever live in notoriety for the reasons you explained. Whereas the kid that bought Vexx and thought it was jank stopped giving a shit decades ago.
The core ideas were decent (cool Europe hub world, time loop plot, regular stages + twitchy challenge stages, the core cast gets some love as cameo characters in missions), but the execution was pretty bad. Some of the fault lies in being rushed out in beta state, but some of it was design problems. End result was a deeply flawed game that's more fun to laugh at than play.
The hype comes from a mix of nostalgia and recognition that the way a lot of this was "fixed" was by stripping good elements out of future games. Cringe stories were avoided by refusing to make sincere stories. Iffy physics and unfair deaths were avoided by removing player agency in level progression and character controls. Unfocused vision was avoided by sanding the product down to a laser focus and killing variety.
TL;DR, the game is bad, but some of the "fixes" on Sonic Team's part made later games even worse at their core. Forces is a far less enjoyable game than 06 despite not having its horrible bugs and weird cringe story because it's unambitious, monotonous and basically plays itself.
>hate
terrible load times (think several minutes, in every single fricking level, sometimes multiple times in a stage)
fricked up physics
Shadow's vehicle segments
Sonic's mach-speed sections being basically death traps you can't possibly prepare for
Silver's pathetically slow running speed compared to the other two playable characters
Amy in general
Sonic and Elise's weird love story
Eggman's cursed design
most of the side characters aren't fun to play as at all (Blaze being basically the only standout), and in several cases are broken beyond belief
The main story revolving around time travel is both overly complicated and incredibly stupid all at once (like most time-travel-related stories)
Terrible voice acting (this might be an English-only issue)
In-game animation is fricking horrid and over-relies on mocap (the CG cutscenes look pretty good, though)
TONS of gamebreaking bugs
>love
The level designs would be somewhat okay if the game worked properly
SONICMAN
The game was developed when Sonic Team was going through a massive crunch to get a shitload of games at once out the door for Sonic's 15th anniversary. It was developed alongside Shadow the Hedgehog, Sonic and the Secret Rings and the GBA port of Sonic 1.
>Hate
It's a really incometently made game, due to a bunch of issues (being rushed, the Japanese developers having a hard time starting out, bad dicisions piling up) >Love
In many ways 06 is the culmination of the ideas present throughout the Adventure/Dark Age/Whatever you want to call it Era. Even if it's a bad game, seeing all those elements evicirated hurt.
But he's objectively the best Sonic VA, I don't put it past production for wanting him to challenge his acting abilities. Aside from Sonia's voice coming off as a bit nasally Sonic and Manic are just fine.
DiC landed the deal to make Sonic cartoons and pitched two versions at once. The silly one got made for weekday syndication and the serious one was picked up by ABC for Saturday mornings. For a while, the idea was for AoStH to be the prequel to SatAM, but that got dropped from both of the final shows (for the better) and just kept them both as their own separate thing, save for a Christmas special made long after both shows ended that snuck a Sally cameo into AoStH's world.
>How was Journey of Dreams? Was it a good sequelboot?
It's been a long time since I've played it, but I remember enjoying it enough. Not as trippy as the original game, but I enjoyed the cheesy voice acting.
It's two completely different tones so it's pretty hard to compare them.
I have a closer relationship with AoStH compared to SatAM cause I had episodes of it on video. Robotnik in that show is fricking hilarious every time.
I liked AoStH simply because Robotnik was such a lovable ham and so much more memorable because of it.
I hated Sonic and Tails as protagonists, Sonic's an annoying little turd and Tails is a whiny little frick, regardless of which show you were watching. SATAM had more protags hogging the spotlight, most of whom were aggravating to endure (Bunnie being the only exception, I love a good southern belle), while AoStH had either Sonic's guest of the week or Robotnik and his cronies taking your attention for the episode.
bunnie > sally
based
Adventures is a much better show. It's not as well animated, but the writing is snappier and it's got a better batting average despite having way more episodes. SatAM is the kind of poorly written adventure serial that created a stigma around American cartoons for decades. What it wants to be is pretty solid, but the scripts are lousy and it's poorly choreographed. It also does an awful job utilizing its cast. Nobody would remember it if it wasn't Sonic, while Adventures would probably be remembered by hobbyists in the same way Twisted Tales of Felix and Robot Jones are.
SatAM for everything except the memes
SONIC UNDERGROUND!
When will b***hes learn?
He's surprisingly hot in the original
They've got a lot in common and the stories practically write themselves. I could see their chemistry being great too. I'm more of a Manic x Scourge fan myself though
SatAM is way better
>better opening
>way better Robotnik
>more wacky and reminiscent of the Sonic games in terms of aesthetic
>not held back by a bunch of dumb fanfiction furry companions no one gives a shit about
>iconic bird and robot henchmen
>I'm waaaaaaaiting
Also the objectively best Sonic cartoon is the OVA. Probably the only time they got it right in terms of adapting the franchise into animation. Every other attempt is too much of a meme.
Did you mean to say AOSTH? Because it doesn't sound like you're describing SatAM.
> the OVA
Hugely overrated tbqh. Only put on a pedestal because it
1. Is Japanese but not complete ass, otherwise unheard of for adaptations of Sonic, and
2. Did the smartest thing anyone’s ever done with a Sonic CD adaptation and removed the pink Poochie
Nothing you said explains why it's overrated. If anything it's niche and only really known by internet nerd
Do you think the word "overrated" means "known by lots of people"?
A lot of people people would have to rate it for it to be considered "overrated". How can it be overrated when most people don't even know about it. It's an obscure 90's OVA that hasn't been rereleased in over 20 years.
"Overrated" refers to the quality rating people have given something, not the amount of ratings it's received.
well I mean, no one calls it a masterpiece or anything that I'd considered overblown or an exaggeration. It's just by far the best Sonic animation.
So you're saying the relatively small amount of people who like it, like it too much?
No they just overhype it. Like when CD was the best classic game before it was made more available on phones.
>phone user opinions mattering
>Did the smartest thing anyone’s ever done with a Sonic CD adaptation and removed the pink Poochie
Only to add an even bigger Poochie in the stupid annoying cat girl nobody likes.
People like Blaze
literally no one cares about this character except for autists in the fandom. Any character that was invented after SA2 is objectively shit.
Sara was created to do ecchi thing you couldn't do with Amy. And Rouge was yet to be made
Honestly, the OVA is carried hard by Metal Sonic. He's got some cool animation stuff like gif related, great shots that highlight how cool his design is, and some interesting (if not underused) ideas, like having Sonic's personality.
>like having Sonic's personality.
That's only at the end when they're linked. The people who think Metal is anything like Sonic in any media aside from looks, being fast and enjoying a good race, are complete morons.
>That's only at the end when they're linked.
Yes, hence the word underused in my post.
The OVA has some big writing and pacing problems, but you're right that it's the closest in tone to the games while also being the best standalone animation. Really wish they had cut a few elements and made it a bit more straightforward: it probably would have been picked up as a proper TV show.
>pacing problems
I feel like this isn't much of an issue considering how short the length of the animation is. If it was feature length, I'd be more willing to agree but it's barely 50 minutes long.
That's what I'm saying. The short length means that's not as much of an issue, but it's still a problem and probably part of why it didn't get greenlit as a show. It's too lethargic for a proper TV anime that isn't a manga adaptation.
They definitely could’ve fit it all into 20 minutes instead of an hour.
The biggest thing we missed out was the potential for them to write new original things like new characters of their island base, for a full series.
>way better robotnik
you outed yourself as the one with the worst opinion in the thread so early!
AoStH, it's so goddamn good
Both > any Sonic media produced after
And that’s a Flash fact.
So like, are they all kids in SatAM or just very short teenagers?
teenagers
except tails
Archie
Archie was fricking DOGSHIT and the worst sonic thing ever written by far
The beginning and end of all its “worldbuilding” was two neckbeards fighting over an origin story for Echidnas
All the characters were two-dimensional and static, and their only “character arcs” were being shat on or jacked off depending on if the author self-inserts as them
The new characters were dogshit deviantart-tier coldsteel ocs who had no place in any sonic story
Running for 200 issues (because it released slow and its shills are standardless consoomers) is not a merit
Nah, Prime exists.
Prime is certainly a strong contendor for worst, I place it just above only because they never tried writing ntr as a plotpoint
Prime has cool fights.
Archie Sonic was great. I love that 2/3rds of it was Sonic desperately trying to find a place to cram his blue furry wiener.
your cringy self-insert fanfic does not a good story make
Still seething because btfo in the other thread, tailscuck
???
and now you're a schizo, too. Archieshit, not even once.
Like or not, Archie Sonic lasted that long because it was on Archie. If it was on any other licensed publishing company it wouldn't lasted 6 issues.
>SatAM
Absolutely no sexy Bats that kidnap Sonic
>AoStH
King Komometz
I think the answer is obvious
Neat, I can now put fanart of this geezer up to 1.
What are some other underrated AoStH chars you like anons? no Katella, too well known, i mean lesser known
I much prefer AoStH; funnier, self-contained, and I liked its generally more positive atmosphere, even as a kid, to how grim SatAM felt. I think SatAM could've had a good thing going for it, if it was allowed to go on longer and maybe handled its plot better, but for what it simply is, I'm not all that drawn to it anymore. It's really too bad that Sonic just can't seem to get a (somewhat serious/serialized) cartoon out without something jank happening to it
Wes Weasley is pretty much always funny when he shows up; it's a simple, overdone archetype but a sleazy, money-hungry scammer almost always leads to funny interactions
D.U.F.U.S.
>DA BEARZ!
Feels forced, it's not really a contest and there's no reason to have a rivalry.
But personally I'm nostalgic for Sonic Underground.
I thought I would hate Underground but I love the villain duo and Sonic's dialogue is like a more refined version of how he speaks in Satam since his one liners in Underground are better and more topical to whatever is happening.
Mondo bummer, eh?
sonic underground
Adventures of Sonic The Hedgehog if you're not blinded by furry lust.
Adventures is more entertaining I find but I appreciate SatAM for the effort it put into it's worldbuilding, even though the trends at the time would handicap it in many ways.
I'd go with this. SatAM was too blinded by 80s ideas of how to construct an adventure serial and fell behind the curve when other shows were handling it better. If it executed its ideas well, it would have been great.
Aosth
SatAM S1 > the good AoStH episodes > SatAM S3 > the bad AoStH episodes
The problem with AoStH being a weekday syndicated show is that it has more good episodes and bad episodes individually than SatAM had total, so if you're going in blind it's a dice roll which kind of episode you're getting.
>SatAM S3
yo wot?
I agree with splitting them up like this, Satam season 1 was excellent then season 2 came and Antoine fricking murdered any scene he was in, the animation didn't feel as good for some reason, the setting gave me Archie flashbacks in a bad way, and the episodes as good as season 1 were few and far between.
>Not including pink Sally for AOSTH
Well she was only in the Christmas special.
Still AOSTH.
One Sally is enough.
Season 2 of SatAM (aired in late 1994) is worse than Season 1 (aired in late 1993)
Yeah. They tried to make it more story driven but failed to actually make the season's arc narrative engaging.
I feel like both of them are more extreme versions of SatAM's failings. Conceptually, both are strong, even as weird as they are. They just get stuck in a rut of having to follow the episodic template created for them, have a lot of really bad animation compromises, and are forced to have terrible pacing to counterbalance their length. If both were 13 episodes in their entirety and cut a few things, they'd probably be better shows.
Both are the only versions of Sonic I will accept.
Their dynamic is what carries the show. Besides Robotnik of course.
People b***h that she warms up to Sonic too much in 2 but it seemed perfectly natural to me since he does mostly carry the team.
Their dynamic is what carries the show. Besides Robotnik of course.
Both are more watchable than Underground and X.
X started and ended pretty good, a lot of the middle is shit though. It was cool just for the novelty of it being the Adventure era stuff but in an anime.
>X started and ended pretty good
X is bullshit
I watched AoStH after school and SatAM on weekends. I looked forward more to SatAM but AoStH kept me entertained while I waited for Saturday. AoStH is the delicious appetizer while SatAM was the main course.
Have you listened to the intro that AoSTH got in spain? Very catchy
?si=6RO8H53kOwdskKMo
Yeah it is very good, it's odd that AoStH didn't get a vocal theme in English.
>Kath Soucie voiced Sally in SatAM and Lola in Space Jam
and most famously known for voicing the twins on Rugrats
>recycles the Robotnik design from SatAM, yet doesn't have Jim Cummings as the voice actor
Such a joke of a series
Weird complaint when it's universally agreed that Long John Baldry was the better Robotnik. Jim Cummings was the better voice actor obviously, but Baldry was clearly the better Robotnik with the better voice. It's so iconic that barely anyone even remembers the other version.
Anon is saying it's weird that they got Chalk for Underground while reusing the SatAM design. I think it's just a matter of schedules and budget. Chalk's good at what he does.
A bunch of reasons.
People like to simplify, but it's a really uneven book. A lot of good and bad in there. The parts people like to hate on aren't as bad as they make it out to be and the good bits aren't as amazing as people say. I think the book would have been better off with more writer diversity over the years.
SatAM Robotnik was just another generic and overused Jim Cummings villain voice.
I think Garry Chalk does a good job of Robotnik.
>Garry Chalk
When?
Underground
It's funny how he's stuck around with the franchise. Started off playing Grounder in AOSTH and now he plays Commander Olive Garden in the Sonic movies.
He sounds fine, in fact the way he sounds in Underground fits how incompetent the character is.
>Jim Cummings
>Bad
When it comes to Sonic, i only care about the 2D platformers, 3D platformers and 3D racing games. That's where the franchise shines the most.
Nothing holds a candle to the Sonic comics published by Archie comics.
>Fully fleshed-out worldbuilding
>Three-dimensional characters with character arcs
>Countless new characters, lands, and adventures
>Ran for a really long time with several spin-off comic series
If it was so good why did it end?
because no one except for actual moronic autists would ever buy and read a fricking Sonic comic of all things
It was literally the longest running video game comic ever. By that metric it’s the best ever.
Because of Ken Penders, unironically.
Anime is just cartoons: Japan.
Based
I find both of them mediocre. AOSTH was just a poor man’s looney tunes. It poisoned the minds of a generation into thinking Sonic is supposed to be a goofy cartoon instead of a shonen hero. How the frick do you write a multi-part story about the Chaos Emeralds and not have Sonic turn Super at any point?
SatAM captured the tone of the games better but it still had plenty of problems. The cast was super bloated. The show’s version of Antoine and Dulcie were totally worthless and are just lame comic relief, Ant gets actual character development in the comics but in SatAM he’s just a cheap dated stereotype. Rotor and Bunnie literally accomplish nothing. The show would have been way stronger if it better utilized the serious elements, it felt very half-assed.
>instead of a shonen hero
headcanon. sonic was always goofy
Sonic is a Shonen character. He was never goofy.
If Sonic was cringy dbz style shit I would never have gotten into it as a kid.
>dbz style
>cringey
are you moronic?
dbz shit was cringey in 2001. 23 years later, I don't think they've invented a Super Saiyan form advanced enough yet to properly show just how laughably embarrassing it is in 2024.
Cope. Literally the most famous anime of all time and sells better than Sonic and pretty most of your favorite franchises.
I used to beat up kids at school just for liking dbz. shit's so corny.
>I used to beat up children for liking things I didn't.
Must have learned it from your dad.
>i used to physically attack people for liking something i didn't
You sound like a tard.
Props to him honestly. There was a Sonicgay in my elementary school who I would kick the ass of, sometimes people need to learn not to be cringelords or else they become chris-chan.
>I used to beat up kids at school just for liking dbz.
People who like DBZ are literal athletes like myself so I doubt that
>athletes like myself
Just because you run around with your arms behind your back like a Naruto character doesn't make you an athlete. It just makes your neighbors concerned for your safety.
You wouldn't survive 5 seconds in Mexico with that opinion
mexico sucks
To be fair, gringos usually don't survive more than 5 seconds alone in Mexico, no matter the case
Based
>someone is based for lying
Literally the average DBZ watcher would beat the frick out of you and him. These are dudes who are into tough guy shit.
DBZ fans are all mexican manlets.
Actually tough guys wouldn't watch cringey ass cartoons for autistic babies like dbz
What are some good tough guy cartoons?
Trick question, tough guys don't watch cartoons.
You just came here to laugh at us weak nerds huh!?
homie, you're on Cinemaphile
This. If you're getting pussy you don't need to retreat back to the comfort of your childhood with babby cartoons.
adventure of sonic the hedgehog
they really are just funny and entertaining
They're just two fun guys.
I'm inclined to agree, though I would stop short at saying the writing was good. Sometimes it was okay but it was DiC.
>most famous
>sells better
So like all soulless goyslop? All you're doing is admitting it's solely normalgay shit.
Okay, anon, if you think the two are mutually exclusive, I don't know what to tell you, but you are clearly speaking out of your ass.
Reminder that Dragonball started as a comedic spoof of Journey to the west, which itself was already out there to begin with.
You're arguing with autists. It's one of the worst things about being into comics or animation: the disconnect in understanding the craft among the most dedicated fans is massive. Even in stuff like sports, video gaming and movies, the distance between the extremes of knowledge isn't that overwhelming.
It's nearly impossible to talk about nuance in these fields because you'll inevitably be bickering with someone who's still mentally a toddler.
Black person, Goku's whole character is that he's an immature goof-off that just likes eating and being moronic. Every thing that Toriyama has created is inherently a parody of wresting, popular movies, or just some other whimsical nonsense that he thought was funny or cool. It's genuinely not an exaggeration to say that plenty of Sonic media is more serious than DB.
Finally, an Anon with a brain.
goku is a shitty extreme murderer devil in dbz until he goes super dead obliterated to hell
Did Goku even kill anyone in Z?
Apart from Kid Buu, and even then Goku wanted him to be reborn as Uub.
Yakon
>Sonic was never this Sonic was always this
Sonic doesn't have a strong character identity because his corporate overlords didn't have a particularly clear vision of what they wanted from him other than "popular character"
Fricking christ, finally someone who gets it. Sonic was literally think tanked by Sega employees to be as marketable as possible, first and foremost, always changing with the trends to stay relevant.
No he wasn't stop spreading misinformation about the in house company design contest.
>SatAM captured the tone of the games better
I don't think it captured it at all, thankfully.
>It poisoned the minds of a generation into thinking Sonic is supposed to be a goofy cartoon instead of a shonen hero
Because that would have never happened otherwise? I literally know people who have never watched AoStH in their lives call Sonic a cartoon character.
Where in that image does Sonic act cartoonish and goofy?
Have you seen a cartoon?
>all cartoons are funny and lighthearted
I mean, there's a reason why Goku and the rest of the DBZ cast are drawn as realistic(ish) human beings and not like Doraemon or Dr Slump characters.
>who is Majin Buu and Beerus
Yes, they're not all humans but you know what I'm getting at.
adventures was the funniest, but underground was funny too and the satam was epic, x was unromantic roboticized and its been roboticized ever since.
majin buu was many while beerus is a specific cat and human while goku is over 9000 and therefore a joke.
actually it seems like sonic was altered by hyper metal sonic and split into shadow
the new adventures of batman and robin '79
the real ghostbusters
see
Yes? My point isn't that DBZ is a super-duper serious comic, it's that the majority of it's style is more 'grounded' and therefore lends itself a sense of seriousness. Of course, it's very silly in it's premises in the same manner TMNT or Judge Dredd is, but it's done with a tone of sincerity and when required can be serious and 'adult'. The fact that they switch to a super-deformed style for moments of levity doesn't detract from this.
Sonic on the other hand, especially in his classic style, is a punk Felix the Cat, which is inherently either silly or cutesy in design; big eyes, big hands, simple shapes and all that. That's not to say those things are BAD but I don't think DBZ would have gone down as well with adults if all the characters looked like that. The fact that Yuji Uekawa redesigned Sonic to look more realistically proportioned (relatively speaking) is indicative of SEGA feeling this, because when you look at some of the '90s Japanese art you can tell that some at SEGA saw him as a cute mascot character rather than a serious hero.
The thing is, he can be both, and to say he's one or the other is just ignoring parts of his design or story that you don't like. In a weird way AoStH and SatAM basically distilled these two elements and took them to their extremes.
>My point isn't that DBZ is a super-duper serious comic
dragon ball is a gag manga. Z has more action but it's still a comedy. No one would ever consider it super serious.
>My point isn't that DBZ is a super-duper serious comic,
and my point is that you are factually wrong.
Okay, *relatively* serious.
non-canon filler from toei's fanfiction
You're way too absolute on this. DBZ is very cartoony, especially compared to contemporary battle manga. It got more serious for what the anime dubbed "Z", but Toriyama's style was still very cute and iconic rather than realistic. He even started mocking readers with ideas like yours in the latter parts of the manga, turning things into big jokes just to troll them.
If Secret of NIHM can work as a self-serious work, so can Sonic. We've seen it happen. SatAM just did a poor job.
Also, I misread. You're right, he works as either. It's just the Dragon Ball does as well. And Uekawa's redesign was more about pandering to a broader western audience, which is why they toyed with making Eggman a bit grimdark.
I agree with you, I was just pointing out the 'shortcomings' of Sonic's design when trying to convey more serious stories and themes. I used DBZ because it's what most Sonic=Shonen guys use. It's superficial I know, but you look at Goku and you look at Sonic and asked someone which was the cartoon and which was the anime character not a lot of people would say 'they're the same thing'.
Really what I'm trying to say is, people don't think Sonic is silly solely because of AoStH.
>AOSTH was just a poor man’s looney tunes. It poisoned the minds of a generation into thinking Sonic is supposed to be a goofy cartoon instead of a shonen hero.
His main antagonist is a character named Eggman who is shaped like an egg.
So? The TMNT’s main villain is a kitchen utensil. Batman’s main villain is a clown.
The classic games have always treated Eggman as a formidable foe.
>The classic games have always treated Eggman as a formidable foe.
and as a joke which is what Sonic is. A joke. The whole franchise is a cartoon blue hedghog in shoes saving cute animals while fighting an egg person. Stop acting like it's this badass serious franchise. It's a goof.
Show me when Eggman is treated like a joke in the classic games.
NTA but when you blow up his machine and his face goes black like a cartoon.
his silly animations, obviously.
>The TMNT’s main villain is a kitchen utensil.
Yeah, and the 80s cartoon was goofy shit.
>Batman’s main villain is a clown.
Yeah, and his 60s TV show was goofy shit.
These brands are designed to be malleable. Saying it never was and never should be silly is asinine.
>Multiple bosses in the classic games are him screwing himself by being careless or an airhead.
>He always runs in a silly way like it's a Tom & Jerry short.
>First game ends with him getting pot-shot and angrily jumping like a crybaby on the end title card.
>CD ends with him getting blown up in a funny mustache explosion after he gets beaned with a rock.
At best you can argue 2 and 3K didn't go as far as 1 and CD in making him goofy.
both 80s tmnt cartoon and 60s batman tv show are not the source material. youre just proving anon's argument that sonic wasn't seen as goofy until the cartoons. tmnt was a gritty and edgy underground comic until its cartoon. batman was based off of the shadow and other noir heroes before he became more watered down
>both 80s tmnt cartoon and 60s batman tv show are not the source material.
And Adventures isn't the source either, autist. Nobody with a brain complains that either of those shows "isn't accurate" because the source property is malleable.
You completely missed my point. Me explaining how 80s TMNT and 60s Batman are departures from the source material is drawing a comparison to how the Sonic cartoons were a departure from the source material. Neither TMNT or Batman were created as "malleable brands" but as a nature of being a long lasting IP became that over time. Nobody complains about 80s TMNT or 60s Batman because at the time they did change the brand image (such as editorial pushing the Batman comics to be more campy to line up with the show) but they didn't succeed and people accept multiple interpretations. Unfortunately the Sonic fanbase isn't as mature as capeshit fans and we still have autistic millennials who will die by the sword defending dogshit like Satam because they got their first boner to Sally Acorn.
>The classic games have always treated Eggman as a formidable foe.
No. They do treat him as formidable but also as a joke. Everyone understood this until like 5 years ago, now homosexuals think he can only be one or the other.
>Ant gets actual character development in the comics
Lol no he doesn’t, they just stop making fun of him.
Character development would be if he went on an arc to become better or had moments where he finally had to overcome his fear and became better from then onwards.
He doesn’t do any of that, there are no Antoine arcs or moments where he finds it in himself to be brave and develops, he just stops being written as the funny buttmonkey in Ian’s run and also stops participating in most adventures at all because that was his only personality. And then reboot retcons him into having superpowers because even Ian sees how useless he is in his current state. He started off as Cringer from He-Man, did nothing to develop, then ended as Cringer from He-Man.
That’s something else annoying about Sonicgays. They take the most basic of shit and try to aggrandise it as if its good or even noteworthy because they lack anything actually good or noteworthy.
>he went on an arc to become better
He actually had a few of these. There was the Map story, him nutting up to confront Geoffrey, going with Rob'O to find his father, etc.
>or had moments where he finally had to overcome his fear
He had a bunch of these, and a lot of them are good stories.
You're right that he doesn't have an arc, though, and it's because the writing was inconsistent. He'd get a good story in and then revert if a writer needed him to. Each time the status quo changed for Antoine, it was after he had been off-page for years at a time. And yeah, Ian didn't use him well at all, or most of the characters for that matter.
It's less that the material wasn't there and more that the execution was schizophrenic. If you JUST went off the material presented by DeCesare, Gallagher and Bollers, there's an arc there! He has to face his fears a few times and gets a bit better about it each time, eventually gives in to his worst traits when it means getting one over on Sonic, gets chewed out by his friends for it, and then slowly starts becoming a better guy in each subsequent story. The problem is guest writers, Penders, and even Flynn don't respect this arc and have his characterization all over the place.
*Just for clarity, later Bollers and Gallagher stories undercut this arc as well. It was a comic wide problem for a lot of characters, not just any particular writer.
Thanks, glad to see some people at least are self-aware.
Yeah I wouldn't call having intermittent moments where he's allowed to participate with the others an arc. They're just intermittent moments where participates, there's no progression or change by the very end.
I would say he's different by the end of the preboot. It's just not entirely intentional or on the page, more a response to fandom.
>Ian didn't use him well at all, or most of the characters for that matter.
What did anon mean by this
Ian is overrated as a Sonic writer. I'm not saying he is good, he is just not as good as some anons paint him.
still preferable to Penders who only saw Sonic as comic book character first and dumped all his personal baggage into the comics
Oh, absolutely. I just meant Ian is not as good as some anons zealously claim he is.
>dumped all his personal baggage into the comics
Couldn't have put it better myself. And despite that, Penders still refuses to depart from the Sonic look in his "original" work... well, he knows the only way he will sell something... or not?
On Archie, his main focuses were tying up loose ends, creating big payoffs, and getting the fandom to like characters. This pleases readers, but it also means the quality of individual stories and the utilization of characters is secondary. You'll get stories designed more to address old stories than say something themselves. Characters will either get benched because they aren't relevant or show up for the sake of appeasement/hype/creating positivity. The characters won't really determine how stories play out and as such the past writers end up dictating what happens.
For example, Antoine was mostly vestigial by the mid 00s. Multiple writers had ignored him for long periods and his original niche didn't work anymore. Ian endeared the reader with his wedding subplot...and then he barely did anything for the next decade. Most of when he did show up was either to set up a broader change or get a response from the fans. He wasn't actually part of the story. Hell, the only Ian story I can think of where Antoine being himself mattered to the story at all was the Tails arc of Sonic Universe. A lot of the cast was like this, so you ended up getting surprisingly little out of these characters despite how long Ian was on the book.
>the quality of individual stories and the utilization of characters is secondary. You'll get stories designed more to address old stories than say something themselves. Characters will either get benched because they aren't relevant or show up for the sake of appeasement/hype/creating positivity.
Shit that's basically the state of the franchise now
Basically, yeah. Comics are more able to avoid this than games due to how frequently they release.
>It poisoned the minds of a generation into thinking Sonic is supposed to be a goofy cartoon instead of a shonen hero.
Because SEGA totally never marketed Sonic like that themselves, right?
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wow this is all japanese exclusive media when anon was talking about how WESTERNERS and WESTERN media view sonic you sure got him!
Sonic is a Japanese franchise, you tard.
none of those commercials would have any change in how western audiences view sonic. the original point was satam and aotsh made people view sonic as goofy bing bing wahoo. none of the people from back then would of seen those japanese commercials until decades later if at all
>why is western sonic so wacky
>because japanese sonic (the original version) is also wacky
>what does that have to do with western sonic being wacky
youre completely being obtuse and missing my point on purpose. besides only game material should count and sonic in the games was never baldy mcnose hair tier shlock on the genesis
his enemy is called Eggs Man and he's a giant egg, and when he's defeated in a silly explosion his face is covered in soot and his moustache sticks out like Yosemite Sam
Do you have autism? Something can have fantastical or "cartoonish" elements without being "baldy mcnose hair bing bing wahoo!". The point is western Sonic media made people view Sonic as being goofy and childish when Sonic was never like that in the games. People seriously thought Sonic Colors was a return to form at the time which is ridiculous.
>baldy mcnose hair
How did Adventuregays get so mindbroken by this line when it's only been said like 3 times.
Go back to fapping to your cringey archie OCs millennial basedbaby. It's CHADow's year
I've never even read any Archie.
It's representative of the pontaff era as a whole
Then go back to Cinemaphile
so you're basically admitting you entire stance is based on your own delusion an desired narrative, rather than what the franchise is actually like. Ok then
stop moving the goal posts
Oh, you want WESTERN!?
these all prove my point. non-game western media made people think sonic is bing ging wahoo
Because the franchise is supposed to be "bing ging wahoo" as you call it?
I'm not sure what your point is.
>It poisoned the minds of a generation into thinking Sonic is supposed to be a goofy cartoon instead of a shonen hero. How the frick do you write a multi-part story about the Chaos Emeralds and not have Sonic turn Super at any point?
Both shows were made before Super Sonic and the shonenification of the games.
You mean the character that was literally designed to be Blue Felix the Cat with a mohawk?
>It poisoned the minds of a generation into thinking Sonic is supposed to be a goofy cartoon instead of a shonen hero
I could say the same about SatAM, just swap the two.
Daily reminder anti sonic gays are mentally ill
https://desuarchive.org/co/thread/142270671/#142274329
Anybody who has strong feelings about Sonic the Hedgehog one way or the other is mentally ill.
Kys janny stop stalking our threads
>t.
If it was made before 1998, it's good. If it was made after 1997, it's trash.
Sonic Underground?
Trash
But it was produced before 1998.
1999
Well it aired in 1999 but it started production in 1997, but I would also have to throw this one at you: Sonic Blast.
My statement isn't limited to just Sonic-related things.
The very best.
Sonia and Knuckles was an odd ship.
its cute!
Very cute!
It's Sonux but straight
Just like Knuxouge and Sonally!
Roboticization in Underground always seemed way harsher since the victims usually ended up cyborgs
Just Komometz for me. If I had to pick an obscure Sonic Underground character (that hasn't been used by Tamers), I'd pick Aman-Rapi
AoStH was way hornier
It's weird that we've never had a bad Robotnik VA. Even the one in the OVA was decent
Thoughts on Manouge?
knuxonia one true pairing
Negative
Did no one show the Asian animation studio what a chili-dog was?
It makes sense as in Knuckles seems to kind of like her even if she's more into Bartleby. It isn't a crackship like Silvaze or Shadouge.
The reason why Robotnik is awesome is because he is a giant fricking joke. I love that lovable goofball. Look at him stomp on the end screen like a toddler throwing a big ole tantrum.
Sonic's identity is 'Whatever is currently popular/cool'.
AoSTH and SatAM do a better job at disguising their low animation budget than Underground and X.
Even the more flawed games like Heroes, Shadow, 06 and Unleashed have more entertainment to offer than any of the cartoons outside of Boom imo.
Heroes doesn't deserved to be lumped in with that other literal garbage.
Yes it fricking does
Sonic X is such a load of bullshit
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>Tails' thirst for Cosmo's stigma was never real
Characters - AOSTH
Sonic and Tails - AOSTH
Writing - AOSTH
Animation - AOSTH
Humor - AOSTH
Game Adaptation - AOSTH
SatAM isn't as good as everyone say it is but Adventures isn't even watchable.
You know, as bad as Sonic Underground is, there is some pretty morbid stuff in it. Take the Speed-Bot from the episode "Winner Fakes All". Robotnik built this thing by roboticizing the fastest mobians on the planet. Think about it, not only did Robotnik turn innocent civilians into robots and strip them of their free will, but also dismembered them and cannibalized them into this Frankenstein's creation of a robot.
Literally the only things holding Underground back were the poor animation and mandatory musical numbers. The writing was surprisingly on point, and I came to like both the bizarre character designs and even the triplets plot.
>Literally the only things holding Underground back were the poor animation
Everyone says this yet can't point to a single scene besides the knuckles one. The animation was fine besides that one episode being rushed yet somehow that became the legacy of the show.
Sonic Heroes and Shadow the Hedgehog are rather flawed, but compared to Sonic X (which aired at the same time as those games came out), they aren't too incompetent.
Sally's butt
Take my shitty games seriously
Now THIS is Sonic.
sauce?
Sonic Epoch, believe it or not it was easily the best Sonic fangame for years outside of Sonic Robo Blast 2.
Epoch is such an odd little game, for such an early fan-game for the GBA of all things, it's such a spectacle that it runs and looks as well as it does and the level design as simple as it is still really holds up (IMO) but all of the potential is pissed away with iffy writing, bugs and clunky controls.
The story is just your average edgy Sonic fanfic from the period.
AoSTH, it has the best Robotnik across all Sonic media (which is not an easy feat, competition is tough)
Quads have spoken!
It's interesting how in the absence of Amy they decided that female hedgehogs would follow the dichotomy of cartoon characters of 'squat rounded male and hot tall curvy female'. Then we all found out it was just Mickey and Minnie dynamics.
SatAM, cause it has my beloved in it. Nicole is best girl, even as a PDA.
Why is it ok for her to use Nicole all the time but it isn't ok for Tails to use his pda all the time?
The Sonic games were awful shit but these two shows were both all right back in the day. It's funny because the Mario games are amazing but the cartoons are all awful shit.
I just really really like Scratch and Grounder (and Coconuts), they're just such a great pair of spiteful little jerks unlike Orbot and Cubot.
Adventures, no contest.
Fun to watch
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Adventures. SatAM is just so painfully boring to me.
Even when SatAM was new, there were better "dark" cartoons, like B:TAS or Gargoyles.
But they are not better Sonic cartoons because they don't have Sonic.
SatAM for me, easy. One of my favorite pieces of Sonic media.
Adventures
>Sonic having a float while on water
It is the small details that count.
No :Y
Love this show by the way, jank as it is.
I would rather play the platforming games instead.
Still better than Underground and X
Back in 2006, I chose Nintendo, so, I was not able to play Sonic 06. I only watched the cutscenes and the occasional playthrough.
Was not very impressed, to be honest, the setting seemed like a very cool idea, but there was something off. So, to this day, I don't really understand the crazy love or the absolute hate for this game.
Could a non-biased anon could redpill about it?
Word of advice regarding Sonic 06: play the Xbox 360 version. Believe me when i say that PS3 version is much worse.
Word of advice regarding recommending 06: recommend the PC version instead.
>The absolute hate is simply because it's a shitty game.
No, it's because there was massive hype for next gen Sonic and the redemption after Heroes and Shadow, only for it to release in a literal alpha state and be an even bigger blow to Sonic's reputation than both combined. If it released today it would be no big deal with people even saying it's a soulful return to form, but back then AAA games that released that broken were a big deal.
>recommend the PC version instead.
There is a PC version?
He's most likely referring to Project '06, the fan-made Unity recreation of Sonic 06
One has to wonder why Sega just doesn't release all their 6th and 7th Gens games in Steam. Not everyone will buy them, aside from Sonicgays who already are aware of their many issues, so they don't even need to fix them.
Funny how it turns the worst entry into the best with some simple minor complete overhauls
>Yes, if we fix all the things wrong with this game it becomes good.
In all seriousness, I have to give props to the dedication of some Sonic fans.
It's still not great, it's just ok.
>there was massive hype for next gen Sonic and the redemption after Heroes and Shadow
Ok, a little story: Not going to lie, back in the day, when I was very invested in Sonic after playing SA and SA2, I knew this girl who considered herself a Sonic Savvy in one of the forums I frequented (alright, I'll confess my dark past, it was DA).
She loathed Heroes and Shadow (even though she never played them in the first place) and would constantly talk shit about any Sonic game or spin-off post SA2.
While I liked Heroes and Shadow for their story, and didn't consider them excellent games but OK to mediocre ones, her comments always rubbed the wrong way. Then, the first trailers for Sonic 06 came around and, yeah, she began talking how this game was going to be the redemption of Sonic and such. She was such an unpleasant person I secretly wished Sonic 06 would fail, just so she would have to eat her own words.
By the time Sonic 06 was released, I already distanced myself from such groups and never played the game, so I never got to see her reaction. Years later, I found out what a disaster Sonic 06 was overall, which made me laugh about how my wish ultimately came true without me ever finding out.
>anon uses his powers for evil
>If it released today it would be no big deal with people even saying it's a soulful return to form
Broseph, even today games that release as buggy and garbage as 06 did are rightfully clowned on. Say what you want about the average boring AAA reviewer-bait, but at least they're polished. Not even Starfield, release Cyberpunk, and Suicide Squad were as bad as 06 and all three of those got rightfully shit on.
Hell even Forces was more polished than 06, and that was literally the worst first-party Sonic game since 06.
06 was just complete garbage from top to bottom, it's that simple.
I played the PS3 version, so my experience is going to be worse than others. It's grindingly dull, more than anything, even without the loading times and the jankness it's a very repetitive platformer where you spend far too long farting about hitting robots with health bars (never a good thing in Sonic games in my opinion). And whereas Sonic Heroes was bright and colourful and weird, 06 manages to take Venice, one of the most interesting cities in the world, and make it about as appealing as Hull or New Jersey. The best parts are when you're playing as Sonic, Shadow or Blaze, where the combat and movement is the most straightforward, just mash homing attack several times to blow up the fire monster. Dull, not even Sonic Man can save it.
The absolute hate is simply because it's a shitty game. Terrible gameplay, terrible graphics, terrible art style, nonsensical story.
The crazy love is, simply, it's a Sonic game. No matter how bad it is, there will be a contingent of autists who proclaim it's actually misunderstood genius. Same thing happened with Chronicles, same thing happened with Forces, even Boom has its fans and that has the double-whammy of being both crap and an attempted binning of everything the fanbase previously loved.
I think it's a case of a game made by people who should know better; people never expect something made by Slavjank developers like Big Rigs Over the Road Racing to be a masterpiece and so no-one really cares other than bad game connoisseurs. However SEGA is one of the biggest video game companies in the world and somehow they okayed a mediocre snooze-fest despite having made some perfectly fun if somewhat flawed 3D titles before. Because it's Sonic it will forever live in notoriety for the reasons you explained. Whereas the kid that bought Vexx and thought it was jank stopped giving a shit decades ago.
The core ideas were decent (cool Europe hub world, time loop plot, regular stages + twitchy challenge stages, the core cast gets some love as cameo characters in missions), but the execution was pretty bad. Some of the fault lies in being rushed out in beta state, but some of it was design problems. End result was a deeply flawed game that's more fun to laugh at than play.
The hype comes from a mix of nostalgia and recognition that the way a lot of this was "fixed" was by stripping good elements out of future games. Cringe stories were avoided by refusing to make sincere stories. Iffy physics and unfair deaths were avoided by removing player agency in level progression and character controls. Unfocused vision was avoided by sanding the product down to a laser focus and killing variety.
TL;DR, the game is bad, but some of the "fixes" on Sonic Team's part made later games even worse at their core. Forces is a far less enjoyable game than 06 despite not having its horrible bugs and weird cringe story because it's unambitious, monotonous and basically plays itself.
>hate
terrible load times (think several minutes, in every single fricking level, sometimes multiple times in a stage)
fricked up physics
Shadow's vehicle segments
Sonic's mach-speed sections being basically death traps you can't possibly prepare for
Silver's pathetically slow running speed compared to the other two playable characters
Amy in general
Sonic and Elise's weird love story
Eggman's cursed design
most of the side characters aren't fun to play as at all (Blaze being basically the only standout), and in several cases are broken beyond belief
The main story revolving around time travel is both overly complicated and incredibly stupid all at once (like most time-travel-related stories)
Terrible voice acting (this might be an English-only issue)
In-game animation is fricking horrid and over-relies on mocap (the CG cutscenes look pretty good, though)
TONS of gamebreaking bugs
>love
The level designs would be somewhat okay if the game worked properly
SONICMAN
The game was developed when Sonic Team was going through a massive crunch to get a shitload of games at once out the door for Sonic's 15th anniversary. It was developed alongside Shadow the Hedgehog, Sonic and the Secret Rings and the GBA port of Sonic 1.
It was a very dark period for Sonic that year.
>Hate
It's a really incometently made game, due to a bunch of issues (being rushed, the Japanese developers having a hard time starting out, bad dicisions piling up)
>Love
In many ways 06 is the culmination of the ideas present throughout the Adventure/Dark Age/Whatever you want to call it Era. Even if it's a bad game, seeing all those elements evicirated hurt.
If nothing else I appreciate the sheer gall they had to present Urkel voicing all three MCs in Underground with a straight face
>Urkel voiced Sonic in all of that period
Damn actually when you put it like that it's no wonder just listening to his voice made me wanna punch him
Did I do that?
His Manic voice is underrated, dude should've kept up the voice acting work.
But he's objectively the best Sonic VA, I don't put it past production for wanting him to challenge his acting abilities. Aside from Sonia's voice coming off as a bit nasally Sonic and Manic are just fine.
He's the only voice actor to ever voice 3 characters in a show.
I like both, mainly for Scratch, Grounder, Coconuts, and Snively.
SatAM
Scratch and Grounder have higher power levels than anyone in the SatAM cast.
Including when Scratch can throw a 200lb racoon man off a fricking cliff.
Scratch and Grounder die
What is the history behind those 2 shows?
DiC landed the deal to make Sonic cartoons and pitched two versions at once. The silly one got made for weekday syndication and the serious one was picked up by ABC for Saturday mornings. For a while, the idea was for AoStH to be the prequel to SatAM, but that got dropped from both of the final shows (for the better) and just kept them both as their own separate thing, save for a Christmas special made long after both shows ended that snuck a Sally cameo into AoStH's world.
What is this, hazbin shit?
>Doesn’t know what Venture Bros is
Please be bait because Cinemaphile truly has fallen otherwise.
Behold the best Sonic character of all time. Metal Sonic.
Pretty metal
I call it the Hyper Metal Sonic!
Whatever happened to rhat diaper Richmunk schizo? I miss him.
Nothing can save Underground from its animation, which is so bad that it prevents any sort of excitement.
I still consider these games to be masterpieces. They're brilliant stuff.
Funny how the fact that NiGHTS has so little releases, despite its apparent huge popularity and legacy, has managed to protect it as a product.
How was Journey of Dreams? Was it a good sequelboot?
Boring just like the original but the music is way better
>How was Journey of Dreams? Was it a good sequelboot?
It's been a long time since I've played it, but I remember enjoying it enough. Not as trippy as the original game, but I enjoyed the cheesy voice acting.
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dafuq
Journey of Dreams was the next game by the 26 members group behind Shadow the Hedgehog.
Is that a good thing or a bad thing?
>good thing = "they totally redeemed themself, my dude!"
>bad thing = "Of course it sucked ass, dumb-dumb!"
Don't know. Never played it.
It was absolute dogshit.
What kind of autist saves a folder full of soulful Underground screenshots?
SatAM. no question
Do they call him Sonic?
THREE SEPARATE TRAPS?
AND NONE OF THEM WORKED?
It's two completely different tones so it's pretty hard to compare them.
I have a closer relationship with AoStH compared to SatAM cause I had episodes of it on video. Robotnik in that show is fricking hilarious every time.
AoSTH, easily
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I liked AoStH simply because Robotnik was such a lovable ham and so much more memorable because of it.
I hated Sonic and Tails as protagonists, Sonic's an annoying little turd and Tails is a whiny little frick, regardless of which show you were watching. SATAM had more protags hogging the spotlight, most of whom were aggravating to endure (Bunnie being the only exception, I love a good southern belle), while AoStH had either Sonic's guest of the week or Robotnik and his cronies taking your attention for the episode.