All of the supplementary Bat characters aside from Alfred, Gordon, and his rogues are boring as frick to read. Anything featuring more than one Robin starts to get increasingly lame.
All of the supplementary Bat characters aside from Alfred, Gordon, and his rogues are boring as frick to read.
>Anything featuring more than one Robin
I assume you mean characters who have used the Robin name, right? Because Jason, Dick and Steph dropped the identity, I don't think there were ever two Robins at the same time up until recently with Tim going back to it .
Jason as Red Hood, Dick as Nightwing, Tim and any of the girls are automatically disregarded. Not interested in these at all.
That’s nice.
Meant to say Tim as Red Robin and whatever the frick else that's not Batman's Robin.
This was fine, though it went to shit as soon as Red Hood appeared.
>TimRobin, Huntress, Azrael, Orpheus, Onyx, and CassBats all OK
>Red Hood was the problem.
Shit opinion, bro.
>TimRobin, Huntress, Azrael, Orpheus, Onyx, and CassBats all OK
You didn't read the OP.
Cass at least had a good character concept and role, Red Hood is just a lampshade
Cass’ concept is moronic and held up by waifugays
She works best as Barbara’s adopted daughter. Essentially the Dick to Barbara’s Batman but in reverse. Problem is that recent times have downplayed that element significantly. Doesn’t help that Cass is too old to make that element more impactful.
She's unnecessary and that's a poor comparison. Dick serves a narrative purpose in Bruce's story. Robin shifts Batman's arc away from the self-destructive vigilante with a death-wish. What value does Cass bring?
>What value does Cass bring?
Gives him a daughter that's entirely different from the other kids, also someone more devoted to the idea than the man himself.
>also someone more devoted to the idea than the man himself.
All his kids are devoted to the idea. Making Cass a fightsexual autismo doesn't suddenly make her more interesting than the rest of the gang.
>someone more devoted to the idea than the man himself
>and I swear to fight against crime and corruption and never swerve from the path of righteousness
bro it's like you don't even read the comics
I do. Remember when Dick couldn't even bring himself to believe Bruce as a murder suspect because he grew too close to him? Back when these comics were decent?
People forget that he was just Batman Jr up until the 90s when Tim came along and stole his shtick. His current depiction is a consequence of Tim’s existence.
It wasn't even the 90s. Go read early 00s Nightwing, or Titans, or Outsiders. It wasn't till the mid-to-late 00s where his personality started to change.
Cassgays seethe over every page of Adam Beechen's Robin and Batgirl, but clutch those two pages like they're gospel. Bruce never actually adopted Cassandra Cain, just deal.
I'll never understand this. Rose has lived her life in fear of her father, trying to keep away from him and his manipulations and his assassinations. Why would she ever choose to hang around a murderhobo like Jason Todd? Have they actually read a Titans or Deathstroke comic?
>Why would she ever choose to hang around a murderhobo like Jason Todd?
Cause Dick and Tim rejected her lol
Also Kyle.
>also someone more devoted to the idea than the man himself
which is fricking moronic
No, you are.
Cass is supposed to be the reverse of that idea where it’s Babs swerving Cass away from the self-destructive shit. If Dick is Bruce’s light, then Babs is Cass’.
If true, this was done better with Dick and Damian.
Cass is literally the only good Bat character and yes I'm counting fricking Batman in that.
coomer hands crunched out this post on a cumcrusted keyboard
Suck my nuts, Cass is better than the shitshow comics she's stuck in.
>Red Hood is just a lampshade
Red Hood is the only one who had even a decent anything made about them with the animated movie, which wisely cut out 99 percent of the comic bullshit.
Genuinely if I had to choose between all of them with the possibility they maybe get a good comic/movie and keeping Under the Red Hood, I'd keep Red Hood. At least I know that one came out fine.
Ok dude. Cass' first run, Dick in NTT and yes, even his solo for certain runs, Tim Drake's first 10 years, all of them are better characterized stories than "Why doesn't Batman kill the Joker!?"
Which is made even stupider by the fact that Batman DID want to kill the Joker after he killed Jason. He came really close to.
Get Dick'd.
You got it all wrong anon. The bat family is the only thing that has kept Bruce interesting since the 80's. He's a boring as frick solo hero on his own.
You got it all wrong. None of the Batfamily stuff is interesting AT ALL. All that family drama is dull shit. The problem is that Batman has existed past his shelf life. This presents a problem for DC, since he is their greatest earner but they don't know what the frick to do with him anymore.
Just make more movies and games. That simple.
Solo Batman sells the best in most media.
Hard carried by his side cast.
People played the Arkham games for Batman. Not Nightwing or Robin.
People played to experience the story with the addition of good marketing. Batman was ass in the game.
Most people played for the gameplay, dude. Arkham combat was fun as frick.
>People played the Arkham games for Batman.
They played the games to play as Batman, not because of Batman.
I tried the game out because I saw good reviews. Not because I cared about Batman in particular. I wasn't even into capeshit.
That’s you. You’re not most people, dude. You’re just some guy. Don’t conflate the two.
That is most people. The average person doesn't over think capeshit.
Most people bought the game because it was a Batman game, that's the root appeal. A good BATMAN game.
>I wasn't even into capeshit.
Most people, especially in 2009/2011, were likely thinking "Batman is cool. I want to play as him"
Nah. I tried the game because of the idea of fighting in a capeshit world. After I played I forgotten about Batman nor did I think about him. I truly DIDN'T give a frick about Batman. I didn't watch the Dark Knight movies for Batman either, it was for the Joker controversy, good reviews, and his side cast/tone.
Ok that's you. They didn't make the IP because of people like you, they made it because of the strong brand appeal of Batman.
The strong appeal of Batman is his world, not just Batman himself. Remove Joker and the noir atmosphere of his world and you really think people would've cared?
Exactly, and the "batfamily" kills the noir atmosphere.
>Exactly, and the "batfamily" kills the noir atmosphere.
AIEEEEEEEEEEEE WHERE IS LE NOIR?WHY ARE THEY SMILING? THIS ISN'T BATMAN!
That's a sidekick, not family.
He adopted Dick, so he is his family.
Dick is family, Robin is his sidekick.
Ahhh yes, the reason why batman is popular nowadays...
That's what people are looking for in a batman media: The adventures of two homosexuals.
>That's what people are looking for in a batman media: The adventures of two homosexuals
Robin was introduced in 1940 and stick around for many decades
So yes.
Same. Most capeshit games are shit and some belong in the top 20 of the worst game ever, like Superman on N64. Batman and co aren't a brand of quality for players, especially before Arkham/injustice games.
If they’re playing it to play as Batman, then they’re playing it for Batman.
>If they’re playing it to play as Batman,
I'm here to play a game son, not because I think Batman is a good character (he's not).
>He's a boring as frick solo hero on his own
Batfamily drama is even more boring
There's a reason people praise the 80s Detective Comics over Batman. 'Tec was Robinless and home to great stories while Batman was mediocre with a boring Robin until he dies.
There’s like 3 or more miniseries with minimal to no batfamily a year, every year. Just read those.
I've read some, but I don't really enjoy them.
To me the question should be "Does this character have anything unique to offer besides their appearance or powers?". Most of the new Batfamily members are interchangeable after like 1999.
So, Dick, Damien, Jason and Azreal?
Dick's unique as the first of the Robins and has the most history. Damien being Bruce's biological son is obviously going to shift the dynamic. Jason being a murderhobo and Bruce's failure is massively different than anyone else. And Azreal is pretty much the only one you can call different from the wannabe batmans.
I disagree. They're only boring if they're written poorly. Which, to be fair, the are 99% of the time these days.
However, my ideal status quo for Batman related comics was the early Gotham Knights era (the comic, not the shitty videogame) where indeed there were a lot of these rascals running around, almost as many as now. The key was that they were all occupying different niches and had different voices. Now there's too much overlap and generic blather.
>more than one Robin
>not specifying Robin/Nightwing
Opinion is worthless
See
Nightwing is shit.
Too bad, they're not going away.
You already have like 25 years of Batman comics like that you lil b***h.
Average Battard.
There's more to be said by having Jason rise above them all from the literal underground and save Gotham than half having Cass or Tim frick around.
Same OP. I can't stand the fricking batfamily. Completely ruins the mood of "Batman".
Just take a look at Robin's costume which is a fricking joke and ruins the entire setup.
The comics ruined Batman for me. He's so fricking stupid there and is always being tortured or looking like a pathetic cuck. What the frick is DC doing? Then you had the "Frick Batman" line in Titans or the "Batman is a Fascist" shit in BB. Comicbooks permanently tainted my view of the character.
>Ahhh yes, the reason why batman is popular nowadays...
>That's what people are looking for in a batman media: The adventures of two homosexuals.
I’m just here to say I’m very grateful Harper Row was killed offscreen by the Fluronic Man during fear state
That sounds great, but I thought she existed to be humiliated by Punchline.
Thoughts on Jason saving Steph from her inceldom?
Shipping Jason and Steph is bizarre and seemingly malicious as Steph is canonically Tim's girl.
>Steph is canonically Tim's girl.
lol not anymore or ever again.
>Steph is canonically Tim's girl.
The only way Tim could love Steph is if she was a a dude.
What they did to Steph was malicious. She would be upgrading.
Steph is a shit character. Both Tim and Jason are way too good for her.
Nah, she's more interesting than Tim.
Steph was LITERALLY created as a hole for Tim to frick.
Steph was just another character in the story of Tim until Dixon brought her back because the fans wanted her back, and even then he didn't have her frick Tim.
If there is anyone to blame outside of Geoff Johns for the material to make Tim gay, it's Dixon.
>Geoff Johns
I wonder how Johns feels about Tim Drake's trajectory. Like we talk about Dixon seething, but not Johns' internal feeling. Johns tried to hype Tim as hard as he could. His Tim was a brooding, dark, badass, highly skilled, no-nonsense leader. Like other writers, Johns wrote several girls flinging themselves at Tim, and Tim would rebuff them to show how dutiful and mature and virtuous he is. And Johns also writes Jason to be a whiny overemotional friendless manbaby loser freak, as a foil to Tim's strong manly character.
...And now Jason is popular for his reputation of being an emotional, highly skilled, dark, badass loner. While every fangirl and clickbait-writer points to Johns as the definitive writer to plant the seeds of Tim being bisexual by making him a stick-in-his-ass vegana-repulsed bromance sadboy. Which eventually led to Tim dumping his longtime girlfriend over text and becoming shackled to a famously bland love interest.
>the videogame
Which one? Arkham Knight, Injustice, or Gotham Knights?
Steph was created for Detective Comics. Her Batgirl solo is still fondly remembered by fans, and she's getting a decent amount of goodwill from the WFA webtoon normie auidence. Her persona is the plucky coming-of-age underdog Batgirl that merch-sellers fantasize Babs to be—Steph could go the distance if WB would stop nosediving for a hot minute.
I thought the movie version did a good job of sanding over Batman's flaws and playing up Red Hood's selfishness. I guess the emotional moments just got to the audience and they got too attached to Jason.
>I thought the movie version did a good job of sanding over Batman's flaws and playing up Red Hood's selfishness.
Nah I saw that film as a pure casual who wanted to watch some random capeshit. I didn't care much about Batman in that movie and thought he was being an ass. I felt alot for Red Hood. He became one of my favorites then I forgot about him.
>I wonder how Johns feels about Tim Drake's trajectory.
He planned it to slowly erode Batman in the eyes of readers while elevating the GLC.
>Which one? Arkham Knight, Injustice, or Gotham Knights?
Lego Batman
>Like we talk about Dixon seething, but not Johns' internal feeling. Johns tried to hype Tim as hard as he could. His Tim was a brooding, dark, badass, highly skilled, no-nonsense leader. Like other writers, Johns wrote several girls flinging themselves at Tim, and Tim would rebuff them to show how dutiful and mature and virtuous he is. Johns also wrote the direct parallel between Mallah and The Brain and Tim trying to clone Kon back. And you have Freddie E Williams saying tim was considered bisexual by editorial in the 2000's I absolutely believe Johns, who was a Hollywood guy(well, glorified gofer) played up this angle because he thought it was drama bait.
Man I didn't mean to greentext that.
Johns also wrote the direct parallel between Mallah and The Brain and Tim trying to clone Kon back. And you have Freddie E Williams saying tim was considered bisexual by editorial in the 2000's I absolutely believe Johns, who was a Hollywood guy(well, glorified gofer) played up this angle because he thought it was drama bait.
And lets not forget, making it so that the TNBA costume he had in OYL was meant to be Kon's colors.
>If there is anyone to blame outside of Geoff Johns for the material to make Tim gay, it's Dixon.
Only severe autist think Dixons Tim was anything but straight the blame rest entirely on Johns.
>c**t so shit, its turn Tim gay
Rosenberg, the guy who made Jason and Steph interact in the first place, said there's no romance stuff going on, they're just friends.
Also he prefers Jason with Rose anyway.
>Also he prefers Jason with Rose anyway.
Gross. Have you guys seen what actual Hmong b***hes look like?
It's what Jason deserves.
homie survived death and then some more than to be paired off with hapa mystery meat.
Jason lausibly resembles Cassandra's ugly little brother, so he's already mixed race mystery meat.
Do you think Morrison would've used Cass well? He kinda hates women and he has a spotty record with Asian and otherwise exotic characters.
Better than being shelved I guess, but Morrison is so worshipped that any misstep he made with her would be treated like definitive characterization more than her own solo...
>Do you think Morrison would've used Cass well?
It's a 50-50. Morrison strikes me as a guy who deeply cares about even the most fringe characters and honestly attempts to make them work, however he sometimes has messed up ideas of what would work.
Still, I definitely would have wanted to see it. There's no way it would have been worse than what they eventually went with (retconning her entire origin story and tying it to Harper god damn Row of all things).
>Do you think Morrison would've used Cass well?
At the very least he would have used her for some awesome action scenes.
He did a great job with steph, too. Actually remembered she used to train with Black Canary(albeit briefly) and didn't just have her as a rank amateur
I think a more interesting thread topic is what to do with all these characters now that they exist. Realistically they're never going to kill off or erase all of them no matter how much boomers whine, so the key question is: what role should each of them play?
My broad idea is like so:
>Bruce Wayne: retires from superheroing and becomes a mentor/mastermind figure, vaguely similar to DKR Bruce
>Dick Grayson: becomes Batman like in that Morrison run, this time permanently
>Alfred: somehow still alive
>Damian: aged up, becomes a conflicted loyalty figure between team gotham and team ra's
>Jason: killed again, it was a mistake to resurrect him in the first place.
>Tim: de-gayed with the bat anti-homosexual spray, becomes Dick's robin
>Barbara, Cass, Steph: these three form a kind of a separate team between them. Joker cuts Barbara's legs off so that she can get back into the computer chair. Babs is the brains of the operation, Cass is the muscle and Steph is the rapebait.
>Huntress: made white again, takes Jason's role as the one that actually kills people
>Signal and the other weird ones: erased completely as useless chaff
: killed again, it was a mistake to resurrect him in the first place.
Nah, we need him as the giga-homie unit that Cassgays think Cass is.
Actually now that I remember, Azrael and Helena Bertinelli Huntress are both vaguely religion themed characters so I'd maybe try turning them into some kind of a smite team. I know they're not the same religion (catholicism vs. made-up weird cult) but who gives a shit, it gives them something to play with.
>becomes Dick's robin
Dick's Robin is Babs
and the other weird ones: erased completely as useless chaff
If we can just erase them why don't we just erase everyone beneath Jason? Jason's got more pathos and history and decent stories as the Batfam who kills than Huntress ever did. Dick gets to stay Nightwing because quit fricking trying to make him not Nightwing, he's Nightwing, him being his own thing is a major part of his character. Batman stays Bruce Wayne because people actually like Batman as Bruce and Damien works as Robin because he's different enough from Dick and Jason but still a bratty little kid you can punch in the face and the audience won't gasp.
Genuinely the only one of the female bat crew worth keeping is Barbara because of getting grandfathered in. Make her Oracle or Batgirl, whichever, but she's at least earned the right to stick around after all this time and she's important enough with Jim to be worth it. Everyone else can just go, who gives a frick. Stop trying to reinvent the wheel and make some good shit with the proven characters.
1. That's not realistic
2. The girls are far more popular than Jason
3. Jason is a shit character
Only reason erasing Signal is an option is because Signal is actually, genuinely a character nobody likes. He's like Harper Row who also would be erased.
>2. The girls are far more popular than Jason
>3. Jason is a shit character
Fem Cassgays need to get PLAPPED
You are moronic if believe that Jason is less popular. Jason is actually known to mainstream audiences and generates far more fan created content than autistic wuxia hapa and used goods prostitute.
>You are moronic if believe that Jason is less popular.
You are a stupid fricking Jasongay and need to get your hands out of your c**thole and think.
>Jason is actually known to mainstream audiences
ONLY from the videogame, which Barbara has way more of. Jason has never, ever held a solo title for one fricking second. He's an angrier, shittier version of Nightwing and a totally redundant character. His origin story is moronic because it involves an explictly supernatural event that can't be retconned away (his resurrection).
>ONLY from the videogame,
And UTRH which is one of the most popular DC animated movies.
>And UTRH which is one of the most popular DC animated movies.
That really ain't saying much. Did those even get aired on CN back in the day? I know streaming is king and I'm sure it's a cult feature these days, but I think it came at an odd time for animated cape media to get as big as BTAS or Beyond or TT03 are.
>That really ain't saying much. Did those even get aired on CN back in the day?
No, but word of mouth is what really helped it.
>Did those even get aired on CN back in the day
Yes, but since that's hard to gauge a way better measurement is it actually sold DVD's. Like actual copies.
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DC_Universe_Animated_Original_Movies
It beat the previous best of Superman Doomsday AND S/B Public enemies. On sheer word of mouth alone it made the most money out of all of them.
In terms of dollars alone it's THE most popular DC animated movie.
Appearances outside of comics are ultimately what determines a character's success. Harley Quinn is arguably one of DC's most popular characters and she was an OC for a TV show. You seem upset that a character you don't like got far more popular due to a single game than your shit tier waifus did throughout their entire existence.
>ONLY from the videogame, which Barbara has way more of.
Well, that's Barbara, and ONLY Batgirl Barbara, not even Oracle. So, good on ya', keep Barbara, she gets grandfathered in due to her relevance and age. What about the other girls? Name one of them that's even close to as popular.
>and a totally redundant character
He's the only anti-hero of the Bat Family.
You know what the difference is? Jason and Babs didn't have an editor in charge who hated them for 20 years.
If you made a No Man's Land animated movie with Cass back in 2009 I guarantee she would be a massive success.
>You know what the difference is? Jason and Babs didn't have an editor in charge who hated them for 20 years.
I mean, Jason did for 17. Remember? Didn't want him to be Robin? Set up a number to call to kill him off? Stayed dead from 1988 to 2005?
That was audience hating him and editorial honoring their wish. There's some revisionism going on about it but back before Death in the Family readers really did not like Jason at all. He was seen as just a version of Dick that was a jerkass, a pure downgrade.
Even then he was being teased as being alive again by 2001/02 for Hush.
And all that time being dead? he became MORE important. Jason was buried only in terms of his body, he continued existing as a story beat that made his return even greater. Cass was unpersoned.
>Even then he was being teased as being alive again by 2001/02 for Hush.
Wasn't he Clayface there?
He was, but people suspected otherwise and it was retconned as him being actually Jason for a brief moment. Because once you put that idea on the table, people won't let it go.
Like that moment remains so influential it made people think Jason has a white streak and eventually they gave up and just kept it(and no, it was not t meant to be a Lazarus pit feature. The Lazarus pits NEVER gave people white streaks, R'as just stayed in middle age with white temples. )I've seen it speculated that it was meant to look like a horror monster thing(Bride of Frankenstein white streaks) but it's long been retconned as a Lazarus thing.
Call me when Cass gets forcibly retired because she's seen as too campy, then de-aged because she's seen as a frumpy old hag, then crippled, then given a new identity based on her old backstory because nobody at editorial gives a shit, and then de-aged again so she can be a shallow self-insert for quirky college girls.
>, then given a new identity based on her old backstory because nobody at editorial gives a shit, and then de-aged again so she can be a shallow self-insert for quirky college girls.
Moneky's paw in effect. You want Babsgirl back? well she's gotta act like the Babsgirl people under 35 care about their half-remembered memories of TNBA and quirky fanart- lol Batgirl is so snarky and fun!
And inexplicably the de-aged-reset Nu 52 was one of the best sellers of the entire line. Just up and fricking deleted Cass and Steph and outsold them.
Nostalgia be a drug yo
>Just up and fricking deleted Cass and Steph
Actually it was the editors who did that.
Grant Morrison literally asked to use Cass after Nu52 and was told no.
I'm curious how many readers, including
were actually reading comics for most of the 22 years Babs was gone. Not that there aren't some old timers here, but I get the feeling most of the salty Babsgirl fans grew up with the cartoons and were upset she wasn't Batgirl in the comics still.
more than ten years of dogshit batgirl comics and you're still seething? lmao
Absolutely delusional. Nothing about her would appeal to mainstream audiences. She was tailor made as coombait for yellow fever fetishists.
You're delusional. People latch into every waifu in every cartoon. You just don't want to admit reality: she was shafted by DC.
>If you made a No Man's Land animated movie with Cass back in 2009 I guarantee she would be a massive success
We almost had a cartoon.
> killed off because a writer was too much of a Batgay
> stay dead for more than a decade that retcon him as the failure Robin
> bring him back as a bad guy
> some character assassinations later
> Lodbbell somehow write him for years doing nothing either offensive or worthwhile with him
> is only around to be Batman's failure and punching ball atm
Some characters have it worst but let's not pretend Jason had a friend at DC. His success is completely accidental and DC did their best to paint him as rotten or crazy in the past. No editor or writer saw his popularity coming or understand it.
>His origin story is moronic because it involves an explictly supernatural event that can't be retconned away (his resurrection).
What's wrong with that? You hate Ra's Al Ghul too?
I hate everything supernatural that's related to Batman. It flies in the face of the character's point.
I hate to to be that guy but Batman's gone toe to toe with supernatural folks since before Hitler died. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_Death_(character)
I know and they are all bad.
Even Ivy?
Yes. I really don't like the version of Ivy who can conjure 50 tons of vines out of one potted daffodil in 5 seconds.
>Batman should only be like this because... JUST BECAUSE OKAY?!
Batman can be a lot of things, he's a very flexible character.
Im not even a Jasongay but i can sure as frick asure you that most people don't know or care about any batgirl besides barbara
Jason has a shadow the hedgehog niche, the injustice dlc, Arkham, the animated movies, fan projects
>1. That's not realistic
Neither is getting rid of the black batfam member. You know this as well as I do.
>2. The girls are far more popular than Jason
Bullshit, on what grounds are you measuring this? It's not comic sales or dtv movie sales, because outside of Babs who obviously is being kept, not even Batwoman can match his success and she had a shitty show.
>3. Jason is a shit character
Oh well.
>Only reason erasing Signal is an option is because Signal is actually, genuinely a character nobody likes.
They literally already deleted 2 versions of Huntress AND Cass/Steph got benched from comics for more than a decade and nobody cared. Shit, Babs got brought back and outsold both of them. Don't think this argument works.
Hey, Cass was in the Birds of Prey movie
>Dick gets to stay Nightwing because quit fricking trying to make him not Nightwing
Nightwing is a shit role. Nobody cares about Nightwing.
> Bruce and his tiny parody interacting
Damian works as Robin IF Bruce isn't Batman.
> keeping is Barbara because of getting grandfathered
This is the most batfamgay thing I've read today. Barbara only thing is being Jim's daughter. You can erase Batgirl and Oracle and nothing change in Batman.
Side characters can be more interesting than main characters. It's not uncommon and the bar isn't high here.
> Damian works as Robin IF Bruce isn't Batman.
Complete opposite, Bruce having to deal with toning it down to be a father and dealing with his kid being a worse version of him fits way better than Dickbats does.
It's insanely easy to write an ensemble cast, the problem is they don't want to. They want all the characters to work solo as main characters while also wanting them all to work together as a unit, and that doesn't work. They could easily just give all of them specialties, but instead most of them are generic martial artists/half-assed detectives, with some minor gimmick instead of a specialty.
The way to tell a character's worth to me is having at least 3, preferably 5 character relations that are varied and different
For example
>Dick- idol/mentor/brother figure to Tim, more distant brother figure and rival to Jason, moral center for Damian, playful love interest with Babs
>Cass- Barbara's ward, best friends with Steph, idolizes Bruce and the mantle, balances out with Tim's skills
>Damian-Dick's little brother who looks to him, looked down on Tim for not being a proper son, looks down on Steph for her status, was intrigued by Cass, found Jason a disgrace
This is why, even if you don't like them,people want to keep those characters around. They have a varied history with one another.
The problem people have with Signal, Harper, and even Kate among others is they just have sterile relationships with each other.
Like I know (when written interestingly, or in the heat of the moment, at least) , Damian would be aloof and patronizing with Tim or Steph, Jason would be teasing with Dick or Tim, etc. Even as they've become more civil(Damian isn't as much of a shit to people) there's at least still that history that makes when he acts civil to people he was previously an ass with feel earned.
What is Duke to Dick or Jason and how would either character react differently to them? The fact that there's no real case for Dick or Jason to treat them differently is exactly why they're boring and feel like chaff.
>The problem people have with Signal, Harper, and even Kate
I legit forgot Kate Kane Batwoman existed when I wrote my list. She's that much of a non-entity.
Kate has always felt like an elseworlds/OGN character they shuffled into mainstream continuity because she was a lesbian and they were doing that push for minority heroes in 2006-07(yes, for those under the age of 25, it's not a new thing. There were news articles) She's basically patient zero for everything wrong; they introduce a new character but are too afraid of insulting anyone so she's just boring and civil with most people.
Part of the reason Damian endured, for better or worse, is they let him be a little piranha in Gotham's fishbowl. You KNOW where he stands with 90% of the Gotham cast of heroes within 4 years of his introduction, wearing his opinions on his sleeve. And- go figure- he was meant to DIE, so maybe it let them be more open to making him talk shit and be unlikable..which ironically made him likable to those who didn't take his insults to heart
>Cass- Barbara's ward,
She's not barbara's ward in the comics. Bruce adopted her before the universe reset.
>Bruce Wayne: retires from superheroing
Already off to a bad start lmao, this is never happening, Bruce IS Batman.
Bruce dying and Dick taking over was legitimately the most interesting thing to happen to both characters since Bane broke his back the first time.
Your ideas suck.
Post your own then.
I love Alfred as much as the next guy, but he's not really necessary for Batman stories, he died and the stories just kept going, very little has actually changed.
I thought he was based but now that he’s gone…I don’t really care lol. No impact on anything.
Alfred was based, but that was it, he's a beloved fan-favorite character that kinda just existed for exposition, plot convenience or witty banter, he was barely ever integral to the stories.
I'm not sure if him being dead necessarily brings more to Batman than him being alive, I mean, it sure feels like we've had more in-fighting in the Bat-Family ever since he died, specially with Gotham War.
Alfred works for the kind of stories needed for TV and movies, where you need a regular cast and formula.
For better or worse, trying to just do case by case Batman stories hasn't gotten people's attention in years.Dini tried and no one talks about his run; it was eclipsed by Morrison going crazy.
Give the characters space from each other. Have the Bat Family broken up into their own stories and let them sink or swim by sales. Nightwing was fine in Bludhaven, maybe give other sidekicks the same treatment where they cluster onto newer teams or find their own bearings outside of Gotham so it feels less crowded.
Maybe focus Detective Comics on featuring maybe one ancillary Bat Family member at a time, taking on smaller cases using skills or experiences they'd specialize in to work alongside Bruce, but don't just flood the Bat Cave with every side character at once. The main Batman book, he's going solo, but still interacts with his side characters as the plot calls for it but don't have them monopolize the stories away from the villains or their plots, which is what people usually prefer to read about unless they're insulating themselves in fanon culture.
When the Bat Family does come together, make damn sure they actually have a good reason for it and vent out any family dynamic you want there.
Also, just have Jason be a fricking villain or kill him for good. Keeping him in the family is unbelievably stupid. I don't care how popular he is, sure the angst, edgy personality is marketable, but on a foundational level he completely breaks Batman's integrity as a hero if he can play favorites for a character this ungrateful for the second chance he's gotten, who can't even use it to kill The Joker himself for all the b***hing he done over that point.
>Have the Bat Family broken up into their own stories and let them sink or swim by sales.
This has always been and always will be a stupid idea. Some characters simply work best as part of a team or as someone else's supporting character. That shouldn't be considered a bad thing. Breaking everyone off to their own solo adventures just feeds into the problem of everyone being interchangeable.
I'll bite.
> Bruce : Batman, main character, focus on how good isn't always nice and stop pretending he isn't violent or doesn't like being Batman
> Dick: Nightwing, side character, has some beef with Bruce but can work with him. He's no less violent, but hes more popular for the average citizens despite how similar they are. Batman if he had better publicity.
> Jason: RH, minor antagonist/side character that work as an ally or foe. mercenary rarely in Gotham or the US. Could go into some low-key mystic stuff because of his resurrection.
> Alfred: support character, make him less of a sacred cow that didn't do nothing wrong. Dies at one point forcing Bruce to either grow up or become a bitter lonely old man
> Tim and Babs: support characters who can retire or find another purpose and get a job at some point.
> Kate: elseword, where Bruce is dead or not a thing and Gotham is mystic
> Damian; elseword, where Bruce is dead and Dick is Batman and the main character.
I'm surprised Jason hasn't taken up the mantle of Azrael.
I agree. It's why I stick to old batman comics.
It's the same ol' complaint about comics in general: They want to have these classic stories but also their universal resets to tell their own new stories. This eventually leads to bloating of cast and degradation of any story line or sub-series.
DC needs to reset everything again.
this is the dc comics of equivalent of rekindling the first flame. its just putting off the inevitable with its own dire consequences
>this is the dc comics of equivalent of rekindling the first flame. its just putting off the inevitable with its own dire consequences
Excellent comparison. Any new universe is going to be unsatisfying and miss potential. Yet it still has to be done, because the other option is total death.
The New 52 TPBs are still available and in print, along with Earth One and the upcoming rumored "ultimate DC", doing yet another whole relaunch of their mainbooks is dumb, it's just going to cause brand confusion yet again, and it's not like they're going to not reintroduce most of these characters again anyway.
>it's not like they're going to not reintroduce most of these characters again anyway. it's not like they're going to not reintroduce most of these characters again anyway.
I don't mind them reintroducing the characters, in fact that would be the main reason to reboot. Because their current versions weren't thought out at all, and a redo might give the writers a chance to do it properly this time, with actual planning for how the pieces fit together instead of just slapping them on the table and hoping for the best.
(Of course we'd need a better stable of writers for that but that's a separate topic.)
That's EXACTLY what we just had 7 years ago. And none of the reintroductions, even with decades of foresight, came out better. So much we've been quietly considering everything to be the pre-Flashpoint origins.
DC ran out of ideas decades ago. And Jim Lee is not a good leader.
Jason, Steph, Damian = BASED
Dick, Babs, Tim = CRINGE
The best Batman stories treat robins as props (plot devices). They work better as objects than as characters
Batman isn't a character. He's an empty vehicle for the most interesting stories around him.
TDK and Year One proved you wrong.
Year One is carried by the art, Bruce is very basic as it gets.
It's carried by the writing. The art is great, but that's not the reason why so many people like it.
However, Gordon has more "screen time" in it.
Those Batman's are OOC.
TDK has Robin(s) and a departure from how DC portray Batman. Jason's death is a major plotpoint and explain why Bruce is where he is, Dick is the fricked up result of Bruce being an absolute psycho, and the you got Carrie as the traditional Robin.
>I'm a edgelord in black with mental issues.
Never seen that before!
I'm pretty sure that UTRH is the straw that finally turned half of the public on Batman's useless crusade.
The fact that Jason is beloved feels like vindication after the bullshit O'Neil and Starlin put him through.
He's not. He's just around. A Red Hood solo ongoing would sell garbage numbers.
>He's not.
Everyone thinks Jason was right for wanting to put a bullet in Joker's brains and Batman is a cuck for not doing it for the sake of his twisted sense of justice.
That doesn't in any way mean the character is popular. Every person in Gotham wants Joker dead except Bruce for some insane reason.
And the cops, and the judges, and the juries, and the people at Arkham, and the other villains, and pretty much everyone in between "Batman hands joker over to authorities" and "Next event"
That's the whole point. Batman is mentally ill. It's fine, it's a character the flaw. It only becomes an issue when people attempt to defend it for only fanboy purposes.
>I want this obvious mentally ill person to either be treated or properly convicted in a court of law, deemed too hazardous to be allowed to roam freely under threat of harm to others in addition to punishment for his crime and sentenced to death by a jury of his peers. At which time I will abide it and let it happen. I do not want to personally murder this person who's superpower is chemically bleached skin and literally nothing else, which should by all accounts be no more difficult to contain than any other crazy guy on death row and much more easier to contain than the psychic plant murder lady. I caught him, I did the hard thing, now judge him and either contain the pasty dude, put him on some medication, or actually give a death sentence. Three super easy things you do all the time. I, personally, do not want to be the one to kill him.
>This is a mental illness
Ya'll the crazy ones.
Batman threw Joker in the lazarus pit.
Well excuse him for not wanting Ra's Al Ghul to nuke like half the fricking city.
Considering they made it there with seconds to spare, what was plan B?
>Considering they made it there with seconds to spare, what was plan B?
Use the Miracle Machine to reverse it.
>Miracle Machine
Superman never told him about that shit.
This is why DC is shit. Characters just forget when they have a solution.
Flash trips on bananas. He can't without amps.
>This is why DC is shit. Characters just forget when they have a solution.
Well, Superman didn't know how to use it until Final Crisis and Brainiac 5 having him memorize it, which was wayyyyyy after the Lazarus pit incident. Even though he knew of it's existence, it's not like the thing was in his fricking garage, and he never learned how to use it due the Legion not wanting him to know back then. And after Final Crisis we got YET ANOTHER MOTHERFRICKING RESET so that whole event with the Lazarus pit wasn't even part of the timeline left after Superman memorized it.
Not like he just slapped his head and was like "Right, I could've just waited until after the agent got released from the sub and nuked like half the population if not more and then just fixed it, probably."
DC has all this tech and no one uses it.
Trash comics with trash events. And where are all the magic users? They can't do shit?
Why didn't Batman just ask for help?
It was in the Legends of the Dark Knight series, which had him mostly divorced from the other heroes. Even so I believe he did send out for help at some point? It was from The Demon Laughs, if you want to look it up. It's not great in general, really the only weird thing is that part 4 with Joker coming back came out in september.
Of 2001.
Why doesn't Flash just go around the whole planet and solve everything? Is he stupid?
The Jason fans who love UtH have everything to owe to Starlin's Jason. They certainly don't care for anything but the idea of Collins and Barr's sweet, well meaning Jason Todd, who exists only as a tragic illfated past for cool, badass Jason. Nothing of that boy remains in post UtH Jason but memories.
Face it, if Starlin didn't write Jason ambiguously throwing the diplomat's son off a balcony, there is no basis to Jason as an antihero. If he did die and get resurrected, (which arguably, again, wouldn't even happen if not for Starlin)he would've been 100% back to being another hero, same as most heroes who die and get resurrected.
>The Jason fans who love UtH have everything to owe to Starlin's Jason.
In the same way a person has to lives with the scars after a bad accident and has to live with it.
It's the cornerstone of his modern characterization. The idea of Jason taking extreme measures at all is entirely Starlin's idea. Pre-Starlin Jason hated the idea of killing after he dealt with his grief over two-face killing his father
Jason as a somewhat rough around the edges Robin is better than just him being Dick 2 anyway.
>The idea of Jason taking extreme measures at all is entirely Starlin's idea.
It was done for the sake of making Jason look bad and done in a very convoluted manner.
Yet in the end it's the only thing giving him a niche at all.
>Yet in the end it's the only thing giving him a niche at all.
Jason already got that niche following Crisis. It was Starlin who made him into a failure.
And yet the character people are talking about in this thread is a far cry from the Dick Tracy Junior expy he was following Crisis.
But we're not talking about Starlin's Jason either.
Yes but the fact that it backfired is pure poetry.
You still have two "genius" character with the same temperament but different age as your mains. Cherry on the cake, you also create the subtext that Bruce care more or only realize he need to change when Robin come from his ballsack.
> you also create the subtext that Bruce care more or only realize he need to change when Robin come from his ballsack.
If Jason didn’t exist or Dick/Tim were jerks, maybe, but Bruce going through what Jason turned into under his watch and having to change personally this go round just makes sense narratively. Dick doesn’t have that with Damien. He wasn’t there when Jason started slipping and he obviously isn’t the one shouldering the blame for how he turned out. He cares more about how Damien is acting because Tim was such a nothingburger of a character he obviously wouldn’t have the same fears. And since Dick missed out on the big Jason stuff, he’s missing the character context that would sell this fear as being meaningful.
Them having similar temperaments is a good thing, it means Damien is at risk of going down a dark path and Bruce has got to come at it from a different angle.
Bruce having Damian hang around with Dick or Steph or Cass would be easier for Damian than a bunch of high school NPCs.
Or like, none of that. MAYBE Teen Titans if you absolutely have to give him someone in his age range. Or just shoot the abomination Bendis shat out, walk back that terrible idea, and just do SuperSons, because that was actually a good idea.
Dick's not a bad idea for a side teamup since it gives the "Good"(Non-biological) son a chance to have some family relations with the little shit(But biological) son, its just not a good replacement for Bruce's actual pathos on the subject.
Kinda interesting how Jason and Harvey would end up working together in Task Force Z , fate is funny like that.
No one cares about the four chicks on the right or Batlesbian.
Maybe as a start they can drop the bird motif since it was supposed to be Robin as in Robin Hood. The bird head on Nightwing's costume also looks like shit.
They really need to re-emphasize his connection with Superman, because the whole reason he took the Nightwing identity, which was introduced 21 years before Dick adopted it, was because it's the name of a Kryptonian hero.
>hurr durr, I am working alone
Dick is my favorite part of the Batman IP and I still don't need him in Batman stories, I prefer him as a team leader either in Teen Titans, Young Justice, or Arkham Knights (theoretically since the game is actually ass)
Batman should be deleted. His supporting cast makes him redundant. Just kill off Batman.
Just get a fricking tripcode already you obsessed b***h.
Batman is an insane weakminded schizo, and he’s the oldest which makes this even more embarrassing. No seriously what the hell is wrong with him? Everything about him screams pride and arrogance.
This is the correct take. The Batfamily has been pushed for decades and still no one has endured quite like Batman has.
Fact is they're too big and memorable by virtue of being attached to Batman but too mediocre to shine and so fail at every turn. Batgirls flopped, Damian flopped, Tim flopped even Jason flopped, Nightwing will always be mediocre, no one cares about Titans and he'll never have a memorable story worth remembering decades from now like Batman with Year One, TDKR, TKJ, TLH even CoO being reprinted upto 40 years later. Arkham is still the gold standard for DC games, GK flopped hard and has less players right now than even Arkham Asylum. YJ has been brought back and cancelled and is a squarely mediocre show, so is Titans, so is the Gotham Knights TV show.
This is what happens when a character's fanbase is primarily tumblr, uninspired stories with generic and quippy characters with one dimensional angst who go through no challenges, have no substance, no depth, just looks and fluff and if worse comes to worst they rely on Batman again so that their stories aren't entirely forgotten and at least live on in Batman's history/timeline. The best the batfam will ever be is a footnote in Batman's life, nothing else, they'll never have good comics, movies, games, TV shows.
There's a difference in fanbases and inspiration when it comes to Batman and the rest, Batman inspires auteurs/ pseudo auteurs like Matt Reeves and Joker guy, I mean people still want to write a Batman movie, most writers joining DC only want to write a Batman book to get their big break in this tiny industry, while the batfam inspires CW writers, see GK,YJ, GK again, Titans.
Batman is overshadowed in all his “good” stories by the side cast.
At least you know I'm right.
About what?
He has good stories, can't say the same for his family
Batman’s good stories revolve around his more interesting side cast. You can replace him with any edgelord and result will be the same.
Most good Batman stories are him solo.
Most modern Batman stories are him solo.
>Catwoman featuring Batman
>Harley featuring Batman
>Tynions ocs featuring Batman
>Batfamily featuring Batman
sure
Those are not Batman stories.
You don’t read Batman comics lel
No he isn't.
>Damian flopped
only if you consider avoiding multiple editorial attempts at turning him into a villain as flopping
>and still no one has endured quite like Batman has.
That’s because DC operates like wrestler promoters; they protect their main star while treating everyone else like a disposable tool.
Maybe because he's one of the biggest stars of the industry while the others failed to catch on, even when (to stay with your analogy) they had him turn heel and even job to these spin-off characters.
>while the others failed to catch on
Nice job letting DC editorial off the hook, you absolute homosexual.
I'm not letting these useless garbage bat-brats off the hook though, you double moron.
>REEEEEEEE ITS THE CHARACTERS FAULT NOT MY BELOVED BATEDITORIAL
Yes, you are a homosexual.
>ITS THE CHARACTERS FAULT
Yes.
No.
This homie thinks cartoons are real.
The Superman Family is better!
>including Jon in that after Bendis butchered him and Taylor pissed on the grave.
Shit taste. Also I like Kenan but he needs to stay the frick in China away from the proper Super-Family.
Do people actually like the full bar family? I think people like the novelty more than anything less, like the idea of BIG NUMBER COOL the way people did with endgame or infinity war. But a large portion of these characters wind up completely superfluous or forgettable but are just kept around for the BIG NUMBER COOL factor
Together they’re a franchise unto themselves.
There’s like four foxes, does Lucius have a bunch of kids who join the Batfam? homie is raising his own robins kek
Only 3 became costume heroes. His oldest daughter Tam isn’t a hero. The poster suggests she become an “Oracle” type computer support.
editorial did not keep track of how many Fox kids they have and thus keep adding them when they need a black character to show up. Ironically Jace, the newest "addition", was created when they actually remembered Lucius had a son pre-crisis and just renamed/remade him
It's pandered towards the tumblr fangirls, joshis, pedos, gays who like teenage twinks, and far left who are into LGBTQIAPOC representation.
Honestly my ideal Batfamily is the set up they had pre-Jason's ressurection.
Bruce as Batman. Dick as Nightwing who spends most of his time in Bludhaven or with the Titans. Babs as Oracle. Tim as Robin. Cass as Batgirl. Stephanie as Spoiler.As much as I like Under The Red Hood and Jason's second stint with the Outlaws, he should have never been revived in the main continuity. The natural progression of his character would be to kill the Joker, but they can't have him do that because the Joker is Batman's most popular villain. That and him going from outright villain Pre-Flashpoint to anti-hero in the New 52 was forced as hell. As for Damian, he should have stayed dead after Morrison killed him, allowing Tim to come back as Robin before Damian became too entrenched.
No one gives a shit about Harper or Jace lol. Kate is also hard have around, because Babs becoming Batwoman feels natural after her time as Oracle. Duke should not have been introduced into the main continuity. David Zavimbe was a better Batwing than Luke Fox.
>Do people actually like the full bar family?
I like having a lot of them around. Not all of them, it's clear that some of them are total misses (I'm talking about shit like that good female Talon that existed for five minutes). But I do think there's definitely enough room in Gotham for approx ten superheroes, and that the eternal crumbums saying it should be Bruce and Dick only, no items, final destination, should basically all choke on a wiener and die.
If you start erasing characters like Cassandra Cain or Tim Drake because they're not "important enough", you better be prepared to also erase every JSA character, entire Legion of Superheroes, all lanterns except Hal, all Flashes except one, 90% of JLA and so on since those frickers are even less important.
>If you start erasing characters like Cassandra Cain or Tim Drake because they're not "important enough", you better be prepared to also erase every JSA character, entire Legion of Superheroes, all lanterns except Hal, all Flashes except one, 90% of JLA and so on since those frickers are even less important
I'd love to wipe them all out.
Enjoy your DC universe with like 15 people in it.
That would be a vast improvement.
> you better be prepared to also erase every JSA character,
Can’t they just stay in the 50’s? Adding them to modern day just adds to the bloat
> entire Legion of Superheroes
They just don’t need to constantly be attached to modern heroes. Stay in their own future time for fricks sake.
> all lanterns except Hal,
All lanterns in general or just the fricking stupid number of earth lanterns? Because we could absolutely delete almost all of them and it would be fine. I grew up with John, I watched the cartoon long before I ever read a comic, he has a lot of nostalgia for me but I still can’t figure out a reason he’s still around. This is a character I personally cannot associate with anything except a happier childhood and I still cannot figure out why he still exists, let alone the shitload of others worse than him.
> 90% of JLA and so on since those frickers are even less important.
I mean the best justice league stories have the core cast so I dunno why anyone would argue that.
>but I still can’t figure out a reason he’s still around.
Because he’s the first major black DC superhero.
>I still cannot figure out why he still exists, let alone the shitload of others worse than him.
Because of the above. Also Kyle, Guy and Jess deserve their spot.
Based
The without a consistent creative director like John’s to manage them, the JSA should go back into the void.
Too many flashes, Barry should’ve died at the end of rebirth to fully undo his flashpoint screw-up.
Same for Hal. While they shouldn’t go back and just make him evil, his continued presence only muddies the water.
DC gives me BLEACH syndrome.
Too many characters.
Batman has always been the shallowest and least interest aspect of Batman's mythos
Look me in the eyes and tell me Kate Kane, Duke Thomas, or Tim Drake are more interesting then Batman
>Tim Drake are more interesting then Batman
I would've say "more" interesting but classic Tim drake is definitely an interesting character, especially in relation to Bruce.
Kate and Duke and Harper are indeed wastes though
It was interesting to watch Batman's approach with Tim, acknowledging how lucky he'd gotten with Dick and how much he'd fricked up with Jason. Tim was a cypher.
What would you do with Tim Drake? You have to give him a niche that no other character occupies. You're not allowed to kill him off.
Cassgays are obnoxious
KYS cuck <3
You too
OP here.
Even reading the replies regarding the "family" is dull.
you're so cool anon
I know.
the problem's not the Batfamily insofar as Batman having biological children, a single Robin, and a single Batgirl. The problem is every new writer IP gayging and creating a pointless character, usually a minority, and turning them into a "Better than Batman" mary sue.
The Batfamily would be fine if it was just Alfred, Dick, the Gordons, and a reformed Selina/Talia/ with Helena/Damian.