Anybody else feel like the movie wanted to subvert Paul, but it ultimately failed to do so?

Anybody else feel like the movie wanted to subvert Paul, but it ultimately failed to do so?

Like, I know Herbert himself was skeptical and frightened of the kind of figure Paul represents. And the movie keeps going out its way to hit you over the head with the idea that the prophecy is fake, that Paul can't be trusted. Chani basically explicitly exists to perform this role, with her atheist Fremen bullshit.

But by the time Paul drinks the water of life and goes all-in I feel like he becomes so powerful on-screen that any attempts to subvert him fail. The movie gives him too much strength; he IS powerful, the movie goes out of its way to show you that he IS the figure who will transform the galaxy, and it's so persuasive from the raw force of it that you wind up rooting for him and agreeing with Stilgar and Gurney.

When he uses the Voice on the Reverend Mother and then forces the Emperor to kneel and kiss his ring I was on board completely, that's the most raw power I've seen from a hero character onscreen in years. Chalamet even has more charisma than I expected. In the end, Stilgar with his fanatic belief in Paul feels completely vindicated, while Chani just looks pathetic when she storms off in a huff.

I feel like the screenwriters wanted Paul to be something but the movie as a whole makes him something entirey different, something much less subversive and much more genuinely messianic and apocalyptic.

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  1. 1 month ago
    Anonymous
  2. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    >Anybody else
    zoomzoom in that group stage of life. we we we reddit user found.
    you ARE a channer right? then be in my group

  3. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Maybe these fascist and totalitarian ideals are objectively desirable by humans on a core basis hence why this subversion and IT'S BAD MMKAY shit always fails. The politically non-grata characters always end up as the most popular and memorable by the audience. I hate Chalamet but he nailed that final scene.

  4. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    There's not really a moral judgement in the story of Dune. The irony is Paul basically loses all agency once he becomes prescient. Just like everyone else does in relation to him. Chani is stupid not only because she's selfish and irrational and reacting in a way only a 21st century american woman would but also because it is incongruous with Paul's grip on fate. Paul's wife would only be upset with him like that if Paul needed her to be for a necessary future to transpire.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      The Chani change in Dune 2 destroys the entire story and Messiah, that hack the the menace wonnt even touch children's and god emperor because he is a hack. DUNC is a thorough failure.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        Which I think is really funny because Paul DEFEATS her, as the OP says. What we see onscreen is total Paul triumph, it makes Chani seem ridiculous with the way she behaves. I don't know what they're going to do for Messiah at this point.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        It certainly puts Messiah in a weird spot. I don't think it is insurmountable but the handling of Chani is absolutely an objective flaw of the film and isn't even remotely forgivable like some of the other changes that were made for the benefit of general 80iq audiences.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        Which I think is really funny because Paul DEFEATS her, as the OP says. What we see onscreen is total Paul triumph, it makes Chani seem ridiculous with the way she behaves. I don't know what they're going to do for Messiah at this point.

        Relationship drama is easy for writers to exploit, especially a pseudo love triangle. The female audience is hooked now.

        Messiah’s marketing will heavily play on this.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          >pseudo love triangle
          You could've just admitted you didn't read the books kek

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            It wasn't really a love triangle since Chani didn't care about Irulan.
            >Dune is now just sci-fi for girls like Divergent
            It's over

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              >Now chani cares more about irulan than the other way around.
              Bravo Denis, you actually made the plot of dune make sense (and Cinemaphiletards seethe). Absolutely based

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                It doesn't make any sense, you Indian subhuman shill. It's cheap and juvenile. She understood immediately that she was Paul's real love and the mother of his children than the woman he "wed" for politics.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >Nooo it doesn't make any sense a woman will get insecure and jealous when her love interest suddenly decides to marry a random-ass princess out of the blue
                Kek at least you admit you never felt the touch of a woman

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                Just have a nice day. That's all I'll say to you.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                Chani in the book is a concubine, like jessica was to leto, and they bond over that fact. Chani is the one trying to get paul to be more open to irulan, but paul refuses because he doesn't trust her and only loves chani

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                more "feel sorry for paul because of how powerful and moral and popular he is" dissonance. same shit as Ender's Game and Harry Potter.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >Chani in the book is a concubine, like jessica was to leto, and they bond over that fact. Chani is the one trying to get paul to be more open to irulan, but paul refuses because he doesn't trust her and only loves chani
                Sounds boring and confusing as frick, like literally nobody has any agency for themselves. "Yes Paul pls frick her FOR MEEE" "no i can't i LUV you" kek so this is your Messiah?
                Once again, based Denis improving the plot. Honestly the whole believer vs. Nonbeliever think is a good improvement too, otherwise the first half would've been boring as frick (just like the book)

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >like literally
                KYS ZOOMER SHILL NOW

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                You know the dude kills 60 billion people right? Why is polygamy in a culture that practices polygamy the dealbreaker for you?
                Besides, he rejects it so I don't know what point you're trying to make.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >Oh no he le heckin KILLS people
                Kek thanks for proving my point, movie Paul is much more in line with his characterization than the book then

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >movie Paul is much more in line with his characterization
                What the frick are you even trying to say? You know book paul is the original right? Do you think the book is an adaptation of something else?

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >What the frick are you even trying to say?
                That Herbert is a heck and can't even make his characters act according to the story he has set up for them. Why is Paul a whiny b***h after becoming the Messiah instead of a much more logically coherent "yeah b***h im marrying the princess now, brb" from the movies?

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                > Why is Paul a whiny b***h after becoming the Messiah
                Because he feels trapped by prescience. He still married the princess and slaughters billions

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                can you understand why that seems so contrived? prescience works like that because Frank Herbert decided like it did.
                the 61 billion people end up being character development for Paui, it doesn't feel like a real genocide. everything about exactly how the genocide plays out and why it couldn't be stopped is rendered moot because it is narrated after the fact, making its dramatic impact the same as a Star Wars title crawl.
                there's a reason most good fiction doesn't rest on magic rules, or sets up those rules very early then has the main story be about something tangible (like throwing a ring into a volcano).

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                > prescience works like that because Frank Herbert decided like it did
                Works like what? How should it work?

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                can you understand why that seems so contrived? prescience works like that because Frank Herbert decided like it did.
                the 61 billion people end up being character development for Paui, it doesn't feel like a real genocide. everything about exactly how the genocide plays out and why it couldn't be stopped is rendered moot because it is narrated after the fact, making its dramatic impact the same as a Star Wars title crawl.
                there's a reason most good fiction doesn't rest on magic rules, or sets up those rules very early then has the main story be about something tangible (like throwing a ring into a volcano).

                Exactly, and the problem gets exacerbated with dune 3 and the worm frick
                "Woe is me I have to rule for 10000 years with an iron fist so humanity IMPROOOVS itself"
                The absolute state of "running out of ideas". Why didn't frank stick to the good parts?
                >Cool universe
                >Classic "fallen hero story"
                >Multi faceted politics
                >Basic philosophy about predestination vs. free will
                But nooo, he had to introduce dumb resurrection self inserts and cringe "did you see when the sex sexed the other sex with their magic sex power?" moments.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                I think the worm emperor is a lot cooler

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                can you understand why that seems so contrived? prescience works like that because Frank Herbert decided like it did.
                the 61 billion people end up being character development for Paui, it doesn't feel like a real genocide. everything about exactly how the genocide plays out and why it couldn't be stopped is rendered moot because it is narrated after the fact, making its dramatic impact the same as a Star Wars title crawl.
                there's a reason most good fiction doesn't rest on magic rules, or sets up those rules very early then has the main story be about something tangible (like throwing a ring into a volcano).

                Stop talking to yourself.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                I know you can't accept on a cognitive level that the books are bad as novels and bad attempts to convey the ideas Frank wanted to convey (which are also mostly very pseudointellectual ideas) but it's always going to end up becoming central to the problems of adapting them.

                fundamentally the reason they are 90% internal monologues is because Frank didn't understand Show Don't Tell and simply reverted to writing essays in the later volumes. it makes autist readers feel closer to the character to the extent that they are solipsistic themselves but for a movie its fricking cancer and will always necessitate changes that will ruin that effect for you.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >nooo you can't use words in a book to explain a character's motivations!
                maybe the very hungry caterpillar would be more up your alley

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                if a character is thinking through their own motivations and options, and that information all winds up being straight exposition, then there's no subtext and no characterization, just the author going "and now I want this to happen".

                > prescience works like that because Frank Herbert decided like it did
                Works like what? How should it work?

                as foreshadowing, because that's the only way to not make it into a dumb plot device.
                of course, in Messiah Paul's prescience actually only works in the ways Frank needs it to work for the plot to work. when Frank needs the reader to feel like Paul is making a choice, e.g. "I love Chani, so I won't bang Irulan" he just ignores it. hacky writing always does that.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >if a character is thinking through their own motivations and options, and that information all winds up being straight exposition, then there's no subtext
                Presence of exposition doesn't negate subtext. Subtext is reading between the lines. You see a character going through a particular thought process that leads them to a particular decision, it's up to you to figure out what it says about the character. Does their thinking indicate selfishness or genuine care, how does it compare with their attitude in other parts of the story, etc...

                Take your entry level screenwriting knowledge to reddit where you can circlejerk about how enlightened you are for believing in "show don't tell".

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >Kek thanks for proving my point
                you are a moronic femcel who cant even make sense with yourself and tries to say the movie makes more book sense than the book.
                All so you can defend a girl character becomign an inssipid self insert for the gay director played by a woman who looks like a bulldog
                have a nice day
                In fact do it like the others said: breasts and gtfo, then have a nice day.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                shes a puriteen virgin fat woman, anything involving sex triggers her, much more if its in an alien culture thats not exactly like hers.

                >Chani in the book is a concubine, like jessica was to leto, and they bond over that fact. Chani is the one trying to get paul to be more open to irulan, but paul refuses because he doesn't trust her and only loves chani
                Sounds boring and confusing as frick, like literally nobody has any agency for themselves. "Yes Paul pls frick her FOR MEEE" "no i can't i LUV you" kek so this is your Messiah?
                Once again, based Denis improving the plot. Honestly the whole believer vs. Nonbeliever think is a good improvement too, otherwise the first half would've been boring as frick (just like the book)

                >agency
                >talks like a newbie moron
                a character caring for another or doing something you dont want doesnt mean they dont have it, we get it, you are a fat femcel who thinks you belong here because you invaded after even twitter wasnt gay enough for your sperg outs, but you dont
                breasts or GTFO, doesnt matter youre a hambeast, thats what you do now that you invaded here, femcel

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >Fat femcel
                You got it completely wrong kek, I sympathize with Paul and his role of slowly becoming the Messiah and a leading figure. Sorry I like his movie characterization more then, because his path to becoming Messiah in the books is boring as frick and he's a little b***h half of the time

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >I sympathize with Paul and his role of slowly becoming the Messiah and a leading figure
                I'm sure you do. The "literally me" shilling should be kept to twitter zoomers not here.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                So which one is it now? First it's femcel, now it's Twitter zoomer, make up your mind dunetard. You probably made a basedface when you read that Paul 2 becomes a fricking WORM (kek).

                Thank good Denis is smart enough to realize that the proper duology is dune 1+2 and the rest is Herbert's decline as a writer

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                > You probably made a basedface when you read that Paul 2 becomes a fricking WORM
                I look like this and say this

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >So which one is it now? First it's femcel, now it's Twitter zoomer, make up your mind dunetard
                I'm not the same anon who called you femcel. I think you're either a moronic shill or zoomer who is upset that he isn't getting his validation on Cinemaphile
                > Paul 2
                Leto 2 🙂

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                he kills 61 billion people the reader doesn't care about between books. they die offscreen and it is made very clear he is super powerful but not powerful enough to stop it. very profound.

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                >like literally nobody has any agency for themselves.
                Yeah the outsider rejecting her culture in front of her means she has no agency
                Chani in the movie has less agency than the one in the book, which you're not qualified to comment on since you haven't read it. Movie chani is just a stand in for Denis to remind morons of the themes by having a character literally stand up and say what's happening rather than letting people infer it for themselves.
                The doubt, disillusion, and fear that fremen have for paul is central to the plot of the second book, not the first

              • 1 month ago
                Anonymous

                Paul's wives are functionally a harem in the books, in keeping with the books middle-eastern inspiration. can't have that in current year.
                >the truest wife is the one who doesn't mind you fricking other women

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            moron, the point I’m making is that it would be a departure from the books but one which females would lap up

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      https://i.imgur.com/xqtUkQG.jpg

      Anybody else feel like the movie wanted to subvert Paul, but it ultimately failed to do so?

      Like, I know Herbert himself was skeptical and frightened of the kind of figure Paul represents. And the movie keeps going out its way to hit you over the head with the idea that the prophecy is fake, that Paul can't be trusted. Chani basically explicitly exists to perform this role, with her atheist Fremen bullshit.

      But by the time Paul drinks the water of life and goes all-in I feel like he becomes so powerful on-screen that any attempts to subvert him fail. The movie gives him too much strength; he IS powerful, the movie goes out of its way to show you that he IS the figure who will transform the galaxy, and it's so persuasive from the raw force of it that you wind up rooting for him and agreeing with Stilgar and Gurney.

      When he uses the Voice on the Reverend Mother and then forces the Emperor to kneel and kiss his ring I was on board completely, that's the most raw power I've seen from a hero character onscreen in years. Chalamet even has more charisma than I expected. In the end, Stilgar with his fanatic belief in Paul feels completely vindicated, while Chani just looks pathetic when she storms off in a huff.

      I feel like the screenwriters wanted Paul to be something but the movie as a whole makes him something entirey different, something much less subversive and much more genuinely messianic and apocalyptic.

      Is the prescience/cause and effect calculation even communicated clearly if you haven’t read the book? I feel the movies make it seem much more like a divination type thing, I’m not sure how much the films are telling and how much I’m just filling in through my own knowledge. The movies never mention the ban on thinking machines or how mentats work, do they?

      Anyway, I think the main problem with the movies (particularly part two) is how distant we are from Paul. The book is 90% interior monologue so we get very close to Paul’s perception and goals, while in the film we’re just sort of blindly following this guy without much context and only understand what his plans are after the fact, making us passive observers instead of immersed, and creating a great distance between the audience and the character. That way he does become impressive, since he’s just “abstract figure who wins all the time”.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        [...]
        Relationship drama is easy for writers to exploit, especially a pseudo love triangle. The female audience is hooked now.

        Messiah’s marketing will heavily play on this.

        well anons, that would be because prescience is fictional, while messiah-like leaders and love triangles are based on things that actually exist in reality.

        so yes of course those things have more dramatic mileage than a fricking novelist telling us that being able to see the future is a problem for Paul because of the rule he himself made up about how it works. it's only an irony because one made-up rule contradicts another, not because "free will" and "determinism" are tangible concepts.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          Political pragmatism is also real, messianism is also real

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        >I’m not sure how much the films are telling and how much I’m just filling in through my own knowledge.
        Based on conversations I've had with friends/family who didn't read the book, there is a ton of fundamental stuff they had no idea about until I told them. I was shocked by how mysterious the movie seemed to them. Except for Evan. Despite having never read the book that guy insists on being the smartest guy at the table and blathering on about the lore he read in wikipedia articles. Frickin' Evan.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          never forget that the David Lynch film has a reputation for being "incomprehensible" despite constantly explaining character's thoughts and motivations via voice-over, and making a lot of things clearer by having an actual Navigator tell the actual Emperor he wants Paul dead in one of the first scenes.
          most people simply switch off if you give them too much unfamiliar information at once and never recover.

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          yeah I've talked about DUNC 1 with a few people who are by no means stupid and still a ton of stuff flew over their head, imo Dune is simply not a story that can be adapted properly. Like another anon said the books are mostly internal monologues, directors would be better off making transformative films out of them rather than creating an unsatisfying and confusing imitaion of the novels for the sake of faithfulness

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            If it weren't for the blunder with Chani, I might've been willing to say that the movies were about as good as it could possibly get for a soulless Hollywood blockbuster adaptation of Dune made to cater to the lowest common denominator. Maybe in a decade some autismo to knit together a bunch of AI generated scenes to make the true and faithful adaptation of Dune that we've always wanted.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      The main message of Dune is Nietzschean. The whole thing is about making Übermensch out of Humanity, through existential struggle.

  5. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Frank Herbert wanted to have his cake and eat it: the visceral pulp "he is the one" plotline and the literary credit for subverting our expectations. it works on sci-fi readers because most of them are just regular midwits or brainlets.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      This. He was also a israelite.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        He wasn’t. Why does this keep getting posted?

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          He certainly was a Shabbos.

  6. 1 month ago
    Anonymous
    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      Zendaya ruins the whole movie's legitimacy. It makes it into a joke. I can't take it seriously as a sci fi epic when it has a Disney channel star in it, for frick's sake. Chalamet was great as was Ferguson and Butler, the rest were horrible.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        jessica killed it, and baron was good

        • 1 month ago
          Anonymous

          Having Ferguson act against Zendaya was so jarring. That mutt shouldn't even speak to Rebecca.

          • 1 month ago
            Anonymous

            Yeah Zendaya just being a BAD ACTRESS only hurts Chani's case. You basically have zero respect for her by the end of the movie. I've read Dune and I know how the book ends, but as per the movie, I was actually perfectly fine with her fricking off, since I'd become convinced that in this version of the story Paul is better off without her. He doesn't need her. Let him marry Irulan and conquer the galaxy.

            • 1 month ago
              Anonymous

              Dunc is thoroughly fricked starting with the sheebon that's supposed to be Liet Kynes. Everything is wrong. It's a AWFUL adaptation of Dune. Lynch's Dune is the way along with the miniseries. The rest don't exist.

  7. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    wasnt the landsraad and guild supposed to bow down to Paul at the end of the original book because bottom line they needed spice more than anything?

  8. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    I just saw it, honestly the script could have been people trying to harvest poop for the use of poop racing for all I care. Just like the previous Dune it was 3 hours of basically high end graphics wide shot tech demo stuff and that's the eye candy I live for.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      yeah it impressed me too, the scifi spacecrafts and giant mining machines looked even better in this one

  9. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    I want to frick vengeful paul so bad bross

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      It was so fricking hype when he used The Voice on the Reverend Mother, I know he doesn't have his famous line to her in the movie but him turning the Bene Gesserit's own tricks against their leader was every bit as good, for me.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        His silence was embarrassing. The way he spoke was awful. His movements and body language also awful. The fact they had ear rape to make up for Chalamet's twink voice is laughable. Kyle's voice was orgasmically good in that scene. They butchered everything.

  10. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    not reading that

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >DUNC shill can't read
      Of course..

  11. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Your name that all of the Sietch will call you will be Usul, and you're secret name that only I will call you will be Muad'Dib. Youre ultra secret name that neither I nor Chani will call you will be Paul

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      You got about ten seconds to show me that spice

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous
  12. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    >no, husband who can see all possible futures, don't deliver my planet and my people from their oppressors and make a paradise on dune.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous
  13. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    >how dare you be the prophesized savior half my people have been waiting for, frick you Paul!
    >no wait, how can you cuck me by saying you'll marry the princess, you cant do that!
    >rides off on a worm
    man frick Chani in this movie, I hope they make so many changes that Paul bangs the princess instead of some smelly desert rat.

  14. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    >The movie gives him too much strength; he IS powerful, the movie goes out of its way to show you that he IS the figure who will transform the galaxy, and it's so persuasive from the raw force of it that you wind up rooting for him and agreeing with Stilgar and Gurney

    People like you love the sensation of a boot stamping their face. There are other kinds of people in the world

  15. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    Was the last battle as depicted in the movie as much of a cakewalk in the books?

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      Yes. The Fremen are basically unstoppable once Paul starts leading them. They are already the best fighters in the universe but then they get a leader who can see the future and the past.

  16. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    >When he uses the Voice on the Reverend Mother and then forces the Emperor to kneel and kiss his ring I was on board completely, that's the most raw power I've seen from a hero character onscreen in years.
    You submitted to a power which will cause billions and billions of people to die. Not that I blame you, but that's kinda the point. Messiahs are fricking dangerous

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      So? So fricking what? Life is like this. People die, others live. The others cause it. That's life. It will never stop. They aren't dangerous, that's how humanity is hardwired. Christcuck morality has destroyed Western civilization.

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        Lmao and backwards savages like the Fremen are better maybe ? You think it's based because you would be one of the guys on the good side ? Let me laugh at you, because you would be eaten just like the many you despite. Even the Fremen realize this as time goes on

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      >You submitted to a power which will cause billions and billions of people to die. Not that I blame you, but that's kinda the point. Messiahs are fricking dangerous

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      oh no, I'd much rather watch those captivating love scenes between paul and chani

  17. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    This is the same universe with beings like the Harkonnens, Ixians and Bene Tleilax. And i'm supposed to believe Paul was the villain for bringing the pain to these degenerates.

    • 1 month ago
      Anonymous

      Harkonnens fricking wish they were as evil as Paul

      • 1 month ago
        Anonymous

        >attempts at disproving the prophecies
        Any examples? Kek

  18. 1 month ago
    Anonymous

    The movie's attempts at disproving the prophecies fall flat because it's just people being people. At worst I guess Stilgar explaining Paul being too humble to accept the mantle of Mahdi being proof of his being Mahdi? But really it fell flat compared to the threat of jihad.

    Also, every scene with Paul wearing that cloak and leading the fremen is just cool. The old "stupid sexy nazies"-problem at full force.

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