I didn’t say they weren’t I just don’t think the writing is the star of the show. Faces and Blades come to mind, as well as the Mignola story.
7 months ago
Anonymous
What? All 4 of those stories have better writing than they do art.
7 months ago
Anonymous
That’s just absurd to say (not the least of which because that’s only 3). Sale’s art is the draw to blades not robinsons writing, Wagner has never been half the writer as he is an artist and the story for faces is genuinely moronic. The art makes it good to great though. We will agree to disagree.
7 months ago
Anonymous
No I mean the first 4 stories. Shaman, Gothic, Prey and Venom.
>Matt going to jail >involving Elektra at all is dumb for any DareDevil writer at this point >Matt being guilt ridden over accidentally causing a death >the series in general apes the TV show too much >Matt's identity became a secret again.
That last one is some literal retreading. Probably more but yeah overall the run doesn't offer anything other DD runs don't.
7 months ago
Anonymous
>Matt going to jail
Bendis/Brubaker did that for shock value and forgot about it immediately. In Zdarsky's run it actually matters for the themes of the story. >involving Elektra at all is dumb for any DareDevil writer at this point
I say it as someone who's usually bored of Elektra to shit, her becoming a second Daredevil was pretty cool and she was well-written all throughout. >Matt being guilt ridden over accidentally causing a death
When did this happen before? >the series in general apes the TV show too much
It has some similarities at the beginning but develops into its own thing pretty quickly. >Matt's identity became a secret again.
Zdarsky didn't do this, Soule did. If anything I' pretty sure he had Fisk remember and Matt reveal his identity to Spider-Man again. >Probably more but yeah overall the run doesn't offer anything other DD runs don't.
What other DD runs offer Matt exploring the nature of his vigilantism, trying to make bolder moves against the system in going up against corrupt billionaires and rehabilitating supervillains?
His Daredevil was still shit. It's retread run written by a failed TV writer and drawn buy a tracer with a busted printer.
>retread run
You're just gonna use this as a buzzword criticism for everything aren't you
7 months ago
Anonymous
Devil in Cell Block D is a banger story so yes Zdsrsky is still retreading something >Elektra daredevil was pretty cool
Just gonna have to agree to disagree here. Total schlock gimmick. I stand my statement that she shouldn't be involved in DD stories anymore. >Zdsrsky didn't make Matt's identity secret
Doesn't matter if he didn't do it. He has to tell stories within that status quo, so by nature it's a retread from all pre-Bendis DD. >What other runs offer matt exploring his vigilantism, trying to make bolder moves against the system against corrupt billionaires, and reabilitating super villains >when has Matt felt guilt over a death he caused
Dude, have you actually read any DD other than Zdarsky? All those themes and aspects of Matt's character you listed are explored heavily in even the shittiest DD runs/stories. The accidental death he caused is in Man without Fear, anon. Y'know that incredibly iconic retelling of Matt's origin story by Frank Miller. And as for the villain rehabilitation are you even aware of who Melvin Potter is? Zdarsky is a hack.
7 months ago
Anonymous
>Devil in Cell Block D is a banger story so yes Zdsrsky is still retreading something
DD going to jail is still more crucial and meaningful to Zdarsky's run than Brubaker's. >Just gonna have to agree to disagree here. Total schlock gimmick. I stand my statement that she shouldn't be involved in DD stories anymore.
I liked that an effort was made to integrate her into DD's world beyond the Hand bullshit. And even when the Hand bullshit did happen, she wasn't a big part of it. >He has to tell stories within that status quo, so by nature it's a retread from all pre-Bendis DD.
It's like you're just looking for things to complain about. Matt's secret identity was barely ever a factor during the run. >The accidental death he caused is in Man without Fear, anon.
I love Miller's original run, but The Man Without Fear is overrated mediocrity by an aging Miller off his meds in Marvel's attempt to have their own Year One, and the sequence you mentioned is one of the reasons why. A stripper accidentally falls off a window, Matt is brooding about his recklessness for a couple of pages... and then goes on to keep doing reckless shit by tying up Foggy's bully, throwing him naked into the snow and leaving him there all night like a fricking maniac. It's almost insulting to compare this to how DD's guilt over manslaughter and ruminations on how it undermines his principles as a vigilante is treated in Zdarsky's run. Zdarsky has put far, far more thought into this than Miller. >are you even aware of who Melvin Potter is?
A character I like but who hasn't been relevant in more than a decade. And the rehabilitation that Matt attempts in Zdarsky's run has nothing to do with the villains' mental illness and has them actually fight alongside him against the Hand. And yeah, Gladiator kinda did this in Miller's run too but it was pretty brief and noncommittal, I think stuff like Stilt-Man tying up a giant Hand dragon with his stilts is way more memorable.
7 months ago
Anonymous
>dd in jail is meaningful
Not really. Just over long filler. A bunch of shit that Matt has already gone over and established as a character all while not being as fun as Devil in cell block D. >Miller's version of Matt accidentally killing is inferior.
Why? Because it was handled in a couple of pages vs a couple of issues? Matt causes an accidental death and vows to be more careful that's all you need. You're seriously stretching trying to say fricking with some bully is the same thing as his wonton behavior while Daredeviling. >i know Elektra being more apart of the world
Again why? She was good in her couple appearances by Miller and goes largely untouched in most runs. Zdarsky is just milking nostalgia and it doesn't work for Elektra. Like I said he's retreading shit instead of making his own mark. >Melvin Potter doesn't count because he just doesn't okay
Once again you praise Zdarsky for something other writers have done but better and briefer. It's cool if you like Zdarsky'a run anon but please don't pretend it's not a regurgitation of better DD runs. All I've gotten from you is that you actually like all of DD's big stories being repeated but with more content to consume, so I guess I can't fault you for not liking the older stuff if it's just about the new "thing" with you
7 months ago
Anonymous
To add to my point about Man without fear and Matt's accidental kill, that is appropriately placed during his origin. Zdarsky is really just spinning wheels with doing it so late in Matt's career.
7 months ago
Anonymous
To add to my point about Man without fear and Matt's accidental kill, that is appropriately placed during his origin. Zdarsky is really just spinning wheels with doing it so late in Matt's career.
>Not really. Just over long filler. A bunch of shit that Matt has already gone over and established as a character all while not being as fun as Devil in cell block D.
It's not filler, it's one of the most important things in the run. >Why? Because it was handled in a couple of pages vs a couple of issues?
The bully thing is easily one of the most randomly unhinged things Daredevil's ever done, and the fact that it comes right after he "vows to be more careful" is patently ridiculous. Accidentally killing a person isn't something Zdarsky Daredevil can get over in a couple of issues, and the fact that it happens so late is part of the point. It makes him realize how petty and inefficient simply fighting criminals on the streets really is and makes him try to solve problems in more global ways, like opposing billionaires, rehabilitating supervillains, trying to take down the Hand once and for all. >Zdarsky is just milking nostalgia and it doesn't work for Elektra. Like I said he's retreading shit instead of making his own mark.
What is he retreading? Elektra being Daredevil is making his own mark, that's what his run will be remembered for. Rather than being a femme fatale b***h who's distant and cold to Matt she actually makes an effort to see his side of things and fight crime the way he would've wanted to while he's behind bars. That's the opposite of retreading anything. >Melvin Potter doesn't count because he just doesn't okay
Melvin Potter just sort of faded into the background. Zdarsky had DD's rehabilitated villains fighting alongside him, even if it was only for a single arc. I very rarely see superheroes actually put active effort into trying to fix their villains. Not just talking or lamenting about it, but actually lifting their ass and working with them personally to try to make them join the cause. The worst part about this in Zdarsky's run was that it didn't last long, but it was an awesome, fascinating idea.
7 months ago
Anonymous
>it's not filler
It's running us through motions Matt has experienced before. That's filler even if you walk away from it with a better understanding of Matt than you did on Man without fear. I did not need that point to be dragged out for me and I was already satisfied with Matt having a fun adventure on jail during Brubaker's run. Zdarsky's jail story is also weak since it's DareDevil serving time and not Matt. Makes it feel less real. >The bully thing is unhinged
Hardly anon. Sounds like you just like cape comics to be taken overtly seriously. The bully thing is tongue and cheek stuff that you're inflating to make a point. >opposing billionaires, solve problems in more global ways, trying to dismantle the hand for good, reabilitating villains
Anon, I've already told you that all of those things are built into the character at this point and not at all unique to Zdarsky's run. Being concerned about global issues isn't a good addiction. Matt is supposed to be helping the little guy walking down the street. Dd isn't a global hero and doesn't need to be. >Elektra
She doesn't need to be brought back at all is the issue. She has been through the whole reevaluating her life before. Making her a female DD is reductionist and is just more of marvels dumb "it's that hero but a girl" gimmick. It's fine if you liked her being changed, but she's not necessary to the mythos after Miller's stuff and I'll always stand by that. Having her be a consistent character isn't necessary and is fueled by a nostalgic mindset. >Melvin just faded away
Not really he consistently had appearances in the book and fought alongside Matt more than just in Millers run. He's a secondary charcter and didn't need to be constantly featured. Zdarsky retreaded this ground with his villain rehabilitation stuff and all you can argue is that Melvin doesn't count because....he just doesn't.
7 months ago
Anonymous
Just wanted to add that Matt worked his ass off to help Melvin all the time. No idea why you're acting like Zdarsky isn't just taking that mold and applying it to other DD villains.
7 months ago
Anonymous
>Zdarsky's jail story is also weak since it's DareDevil serving time and not Matt. Makes it feel less real.
Daredevil did the crime, not Matt, so Daredevil is doing the time. It's about sending the message and sticking to his principles, inherently tying his vigilantism into this. >The bully thing is tongue and cheek stuff that you're inflating to make a point.
What is tongue and cheek about it? It's unhinged and part of Miller's gay BDSM fetish, you can find the same "naked tied up criminal" stuff in Year One but at least it's more brief there. >Matt is supposed to be helping the little guy walking down the street. Dd isn't a global hero
Except run also focuses plenty on him focusing the little people. He goes up against the millionaires because they're trying to destroy Hell's Kitchen and buy up the land. Part of why he disagrees with the Punisher is because Punisher doesn't care about the little guy and what might drive him to commit crimes out of desperation. There's a ton of scenes of him or Elektra helping common people throughout the run. >She doesn't need to be brought back at all is the issue.
Okay, you just hate Elektra being brought back, whatever. > he consistently had appearances in the book and fought alongside Matt more than just in Millers run.
This is wrong. The only times Melvin appears after Miller are about him relapsing into villainy for an issue or two. That's literally all he's been used for since then. Now granted, I have no doubts the villains from Zdarsky's run will relapse too, but you're still wrong. >No idea why you're acting like Zdarsky isn't just taking that mold and applying it to other DD villains.
Because it's becoming increasingly clear to me you haven't actually read his run past maybe the beginning and don't know what you're talking about. Melvin's rehabilitation was about a single guy with mental illness, what DD does in Zdarsky is trying a different approach altogether.
7 months ago
Anonymous
To your first two points I guess we just have to agree to disagree anon. Daredevil serving time instead of Matt isn't interesting and kind of stupid compared to Matt going to jail. Sorry you took the bully thing so seriously but I assure you it's just a harmless gag to show Matt cares for foggy. As for the rest of your post you're just wrong. Potter did appear multiple times and his rehabilitation may not be identical but it's the same idea, so Zdarsky is still retreading regardless of you like the new stuff better and it's not that I don't like Elktra. Certain things are just better left unexplored and I think her being a female DD is very high on that list. >Haven't read his entire run
I openly admitted that in this discussion. It's boring and retreads stuff done better in older comics.
[...]
[...]
You are a homosexual.
This anon sums it up pretty well. As for you "caring" about comics, any dipshit can defend a bad run. It doesn't mean you're a bigger fan just because you like to constantly consume. Dd had a good run as a character but for me he ended with Waid's finale.
7 months ago
Anonymous
>Daredevil serving time instead of Matt isn't interesting and kind of stupid compared to Matt going to jail.
To me it's a pretty superficial criticism when there's way more personal agency involved in the former case. >Potter did appear multiple times
You made me look it up in the blog of a guy who catalogued Marvel characters' chronological appearance up until the late 90s: https://www.supermegamonkey.net/cgi-bin/mt512/mt-search.cgi?IncludeBlogs=3&tag=Gladiator&limit=3000&Template=chronocomic&highlightRow=004413&tagSearch=1#004413
As I was saying, essentially all of Gladiator's appearances post Miller are about him relapsing. His only other major appearance after that was in Bendis' run and was, big surprised, about him relapsing. >This anon sums it up pretty well. As for you "caring" about comics, any dipshit can defend a bad run. It doesn't mean you're a bigger fan just because you like to constantly consume. Dd had a good run as a character but for me he ended with Waid's finale.
That's fine, but I do genuinely like many ideas expressed in the run and would like to see more of that in capes. Whether you think it's entirely new or not, it's not something that's being done often.
7 months ago
Anonymous
Yes anon Potter relapsed. Just like the villains in Zdarsky's run will or did. My entire point was that Zdarsky is just retreading ground with villain rehabilitation. You can like it, it can be a little different, but it's old ground. The prison thing isn't a nitpick, anon. It's a retread of something matt has already gone through and it's worse because it's about him accidentally killing a criminal instead of causing the death of someone who was just unlucky enough to be with someone DD was after. Sorry anon but Frank's version is just less stupid.
7 months ago
Anonymous
If you think accidentally killing a criminal is something that Matt should be able to quickly get over, then yeah, you don't get the run at all. Matt takes it as a symptom of his general carelessness and the destructiveness of his approach despite striving to be a good forgiving Catholic who guides people rather than helps increase their misery.
7 months ago
Anonymous
[...] >Not really. Just over long filler. A bunch of shit that Matt has already gone over and established as a character all while not being as fun as Devil in cell block D.
It's not filler, it's one of the most important things in the run. >Why? Because it was handled in a couple of pages vs a couple of issues?
The bully thing is easily one of the most randomly unhinged things Daredevil's ever done, and the fact that it comes right after he "vows to be more careful" is patently ridiculous. Accidentally killing a person isn't something Zdarsky Daredevil can get over in a couple of issues, and the fact that it happens so late is part of the point. It makes him realize how petty and inefficient simply fighting criminals on the streets really is and makes him try to solve problems in more global ways, like opposing billionaires, rehabilitating supervillains, trying to take down the Hand once and for all. >Zdarsky is just milking nostalgia and it doesn't work for Elektra. Like I said he's retreading shit instead of making his own mark.
What is he retreading? Elektra being Daredevil is making his own mark, that's what his run will be remembered for. Rather than being a femme fatale b***h who's distant and cold to Matt she actually makes an effort to see his side of things and fight crime the way he would've wanted to while he's behind bars. That's the opposite of retreading anything. >Melvin Potter doesn't count because he just doesn't okay
Melvin Potter just sort of faded into the background. Zdarsky had DD's rehabilitated villains fighting alongside him, even if it was only for a single arc. I very rarely see superheroes actually put active effort into trying to fix their villains. Not just talking or lamenting about it, but actually lifting their ass and working with them personally to try to make them join the cause. The worst part about this in Zdarsky's run was that it didn't last long, but it was an awesome, fascinating idea.
>Zdarsky's jail story is also weak since it's DareDevil serving time and not Matt. Makes it feel less real.
Daredevil did the crime, not Matt, so Daredevil is doing the time. It's about sending the message and sticking to his principles, inherently tying his vigilantism into this. >The bully thing is tongue and cheek stuff that you're inflating to make a point.
What is tongue and cheek about it? It's unhinged and part of Miller's gay BDSM fetish, you can find the same "naked tied up criminal" stuff in Year One but at least it's more brief there. >Matt is supposed to be helping the little guy walking down the street. Dd isn't a global hero
Except run also focuses plenty on him focusing the little people. He goes up against the millionaires because they're trying to destroy Hell's Kitchen and buy up the land. Part of why he disagrees with the Punisher is because Punisher doesn't care about the little guy and what might drive him to commit crimes out of desperation. There's a ton of scenes of him or Elektra helping common people throughout the run. >She doesn't need to be brought back at all is the issue.
Okay, you just hate Elektra being brought back, whatever. > he consistently had appearances in the book and fought alongside Matt more than just in Millers run.
This is wrong. The only times Melvin appears after Miller are about him relapsing into villainy for an issue or two. That's literally all he's been used for since then. Now granted, I have no doubts the villains from Zdarsky's run will relapse too, but you're still wrong. >No idea why you're acting like Zdarsky isn't just taking that mold and applying it to other DD villains.
Because it's becoming increasingly clear to me you haven't actually read his run past maybe the beginning and don't know what you're talking about. Melvin's rehabilitation was about a single guy with mental illness, what DD does in Zdarsky is trying a different approach altogether.
What are good Batman RUNS? Not miniseries and one-shots like DKR or Killing Joke everyone talked about, I mean actual runs that are part of Batman titles like Detective Comic.
I only checked Englehart’s run
Alan Grant, Chuck Dixon, Doug Moench, Greg Rucka, Grant Morrison, Steve Englehart, Denny O'Neil, Matt Wagner, Mike W. Barr, Kelley Puckett, Ty Templeton,etc
Alan Grant, Chuck Dixon, Doug Moench, Greg Rucka, Grant Morrison, Steve Englehart, Denny O'Neil, Matt Wagner, Mike W. Barr, Kelley Puckett, Ty Templeton,etc
I've always felt that DC was better at one-off graphic novels and miniseries, and that Marvel was better at full-fledged runs. Or maybe it's just easy to say that when DC's collected editions department is so crap at reprinting runs
When I think of good runs the list is Marvel led.
when I think of good OGNs/mini series the list is DC led.
like hell Marvel has a very thin gruel when it comes to stuff on the TDKR, All Star Superman, All Seasons, Year One , Red Son style self contained stories.
God Loves Man Kills and the first two Ultimates I guess?
>When I think of good runs the list is Marvel led.
I disagree vehemently, especially if we count Vertigo (which we should).
7 months ago
Anonymous
>especially if we count Vertigo (which we should).
We shouldn't. Yes, it was owned by DC but for most of its existence it was basically a separate line (spare me the WELL AKSHUALLY Superman was in Swamp Thing). Vertigo is different enough that it doesn't really have any bearing on judging mainline DC quality.
7 months ago
Anonymous
>it was owned by DC
It WAS DC, buddy. Your reasoning of "no shared universe means it doesn't count" is... a real head scratcher.
7 months ago
Anonymous
>Your reasoning of "no shared universe means it doesn't count" is... a real head scratcher.
No, just common sense. It was intentionally a different beast set up for different kinds of stories and storytelling. Personally I'd also argue that Watchmen shouldn't be counted when judging DC quality. DC means mainline DC.
7 months ago
Anonymous
>just common sense
How is it common sense? That's like excluding elseworlds. >It was intentionally a different beast set up for different kinds of stories and storytelling.
That's what made it good. Add some damn variety if you're gonna publish 50 different things a month >Personally I'd also argue that Watchmen shouldn't be counted when judging DC quality
lol, dude... just... lol
7 months ago
Anonymous
>That's like excluding elseworlds.
No, because those are variations on the mainline material.
>That's what made it good. Add some damn variety if you're gonna publish 50 different things a month
Yes, I agree it was good, but it had no bearing on the quality of the regular material.
>lol, dude... just... lol
Your lack of an argument is a concession, which i graciously accept. It's good to acknowledge your own limitations.
7 months ago
Anonymous
>Your lack of an argument
Against what? lol. You said Watchmen shouldn't count when naming the quality stuff DC has published because... it's not part of the shared universe? lol
7 months ago
Anonymous
>Personally I'd also argue that Watchmen shouldn't be counted when judging DC quality. DC means mainline DC.
This is a reasonable position. When we talk about Miracle Man we talk about it in separation from the rest of Marvel. Same applies for Watchmen.
7 months ago
Anonymous
Superman, Batman, a Green Lantern, and Adam Strange all showed up in Swamp Thing when Vertigo did not exist.
>Personally I'd also argue that Watchmen shouldn't be counted when judging DC quality. DC means mainline DC.
This is a reasonable position. When we talk about Miracle Man we talk about it in separation from the rest of Marvel. Same applies for Watchmen.
Miracleman was bought by Marvel the same way Captain Marvel and Plastic Man were bought by DC.
Watchmen has always been DC.
This is what I’m finding right now, building my shelf up with collected editions. DC’s stuff is more easy to digest because it’s usually the one-offs or miniseries that are more worth owning. Marvel comparatively doesn’t have nearly as much as that, but most of their main heroes have like 6 omnibuses each worth of stuff worth owning.
And Grant... And Wein.... And O'Neil.... and for some Moench and Dixon... and I say The Milligan run counts too even if it's short. And there's also Barr, Wolfman and Starlin that have their fans.
Face it, he's the king.
Daredevil >Miller >Nocenti >Bendis >Brubaker >Waid >Soule >Zdarsky
Punisher >Dixon >Ennis >Aaron >Remender
Nobody talks about Rucka or the original run and they even barely talk about Dixon in the 90s. The only way Punisher is in competition is if you count the fact that Ennis and Aaron double dipped, but that only gets him to 6 runs and Daredevil has 7.
>no Mike Baron or Carl Potts >simply tossing out Rucka for no actual reason >actually listing Aaron as anything but the anti-Punisher writer
And then there's also writers of some great miniseries, single arcs, and graphic novels like Grant, DnA, Duggan, Maberry, Salick and more.
The fact that you'd pull Aaron out of the ether before any one of these is a testament to your ignorance. Just because you "never see" any talk of great comics doesn't mean they don't exist.
Aaron is the second MAX writer, like it or not. That's still part of his legacy and not amount of culture warring or trying to pretend he never mattered for the character will erase that.
>Bendis >Brubaker >Waid >Soule >Zdarsky
These aren't good.
[...]
This.
>Bendis >Brubaker >Waid >Soule >Zdarsky
These aren't good.
>no Mike Baron or Carl Potts >simply tossing out Rucka for no actual reason >actually listing Aaron as anything but the anti-Punisher writer
And then there's also writers of some great miniseries, single arcs, and graphic novels like Grant, DnA, Duggan, Maberry, Salick and more.
The fact that you'd pull Aaron out of the ether before any one of these is a testament to your ignorance. Just because you "never see" any talk of great comics doesn't mean they don't exist.
Yes but he also has a lot eras that are devoid of anything worthwhile. Pre-Miller doesn't have a lot amazing stuff, the nineties weren't good for the book, and like other anons have said nothing good has been cooking since Waid left. Feels like Cinemaphile doesn't really care for 2000s DareDevil, but I think it's one of the better cape comics of that era.
It is well liked. Waid builds on the last 3-4 runs that came previously and also takes the charcter in a new yet natural direction. He got the book back into Daredevil's swashbuckling silver age roots while still allowing Matt to battle with anger and depression like the darker more popular DD runs. Conceptually it's everything a new run of a superhero book should be.
Where do you think these canons of "good" comics that people repeat come from? It's the gatekeepers themselves who annoint the Holy Writs everyone MUST know and love.
Right, but where did they hear that? Ultimately they're looking to authorities (or self-appointed authorities) on what the "good" comics are and repeating that. It's not necessarily a bad thing and kind of inevitable when it comes to Big Two Comics due to the sheer amount of published material. At some point you're going to have to rely on what other people say to judge what's out there because few to no people have read, for example, every single Batman or Flash or Daredevil book ever published.
7 months ago
Anonymous
>where did they hear that?
I don't care. The point that first anon was making is that people should refrain from talking about things they haven't read.
7 months ago
Anonymous
I was responding to their line about gatekeepers, not the first part, with which I also agree.
>character starts out strong but becomes derailed and a joke for two decades >becomes an antagonist for another >gets one more chance, one more run >its the greatest run of the 2000s and the last time DC had their shit together
I love him so much bros
Grant Morrison writing about what the hell happened with Season 2 of that run is actually a better story than the actual comic.
it's free on their substack I recommend checking it out .
I read and discussed it here when it was posted. He’s deluded if he thinks it’s DC’s fault that Liam went off and started doing that hideous digital painting/mixed media shit with no rhyme or reason. Or that they told him to write a cosmic line wide event level story in 12 issues self contained yet bog it down with a B, C and D plot each being addressed
That run was a fricking mess because he and sharp turned season two into a shitpost.
Up until the end of Johns run Flash NEVER had a bad run. Baron's run was the closest but it's still good. Messner-Loeb, Waid, and Johns back to back with Morrison/Millar mixed in was was four character defining GOAT runs right in a row.
Seconded. Flash, both Barry and Wally, was one of the most consistent books from the Silver Age all the way to Infinite Crisis. Replacing Wally with aged up Bart was the end of this consistency. I did like Williamson's and Adams' recent runs, but not counting those, that's still 4+ great runs, depending on how you want to define the Silver Age and Bronze Age runs
The Messner-Loebs run is criminally underrated. Once he moves back to he Midwest (around issue #30) the series really finds its footing. The best issues from that run as as good as anything that came from later writers. Issue #54 in particular is arguably the greatest Flash story ever published.
That gets parroted a lot, even though barely anyone cares about pre-Miller DD, practically everything between Chichester and Smith is a blur, and everything from Smith onward is very hit or miss.
This used to be the basic b***h NPC opinion in the 2000s and I hate how people are regurgitating it now but this time with the veneer of contrarianism as if it's anyless of a boring basic b***h take now than before
You haven't evdn read anything besides Miller
Yeah I just feel like Bendis' stuff meanders a bit and the style hasn't aged amazingly well, so Brubaker's was better in comparison on my last read through. It's more tightly written and brings a lot of wheels Bendis' left spinning to a satisfying stop.
General cinsensus was that they were both kino and epic and gritty and not for kids. Which was obnoxious in its own way, but now the pendulum swinged the other way to where people hate Bendis and Brubaker and act like nothing good came out of their runs.
That was when Marvel NOW and all that shit was happening. There have been so little comics since then that are worth reading that it's pointless to update the recommendation lists, because there's really nothing new that's good enough to add to them (with very few exceptions).
Are the original Daredevil issues where he’s teamed with Black Widow any fun? I’m interested in both characters but never paid any attention to them previously, and only just found out she appeared extensively teamed up with him.
Pic related does not reflect their dynamic, it's DD trying to act out to impress her
Black Widow was generally more no-nonsense and less playful there, although that could depend
It has some neat storylines but they can also be convoluted as balls
You can read this if you're interested in the characters, it's Conway so it's guaranteed at least some neat things, like hero and villain philosophizing while fighting
probably honestly batman in actuality
just by the factor of how many fricking comics there are of batman and how long hes been a thing
>probably honestly batman in actuality
I can't even think of one good Batrun that wasn't just propped up by the art.
Legends of the Dark Knight
Anon outside of shaman and gothic connection almost all of those are art-first writing-second.
The first 20 issues are all great. Venom is a bit weaker but Prey is fantastic.
I didn’t say they weren’t I just don’t think the writing is the star of the show. Faces and Blades come to mind, as well as the Mignola story.
What? All 4 of those stories have better writing than they do art.
That’s just absurd to say (not the least of which because that’s only 3). Sale’s art is the draw to blades not robinsons writing, Wagner has never been half the writer as he is an artist and the story for faces is genuinely moronic. The art makes it good to great though. We will agree to disagree.
No I mean the first 4 stories. Shaman, Gothic, Prey and Venom.
I’m moronic. Meant gothic obviously, just had Scottish connection on my mind as well for some reason.
Going Sane was DeMatteis salvaging one of his original Last Hunt ideas, that's definitely not art-first.
What old ground does it retread?
>Matt going to jail
>involving Elektra at all is dumb for any DareDevil writer at this point
>Matt being guilt ridden over accidentally causing a death
>the series in general apes the TV show too much
>Matt's identity became a secret again.
That last one is some literal retreading. Probably more but yeah overall the run doesn't offer anything other DD runs don't.
>Matt going to jail
Bendis/Brubaker did that for shock value and forgot about it immediately. In Zdarsky's run it actually matters for the themes of the story.
>involving Elektra at all is dumb for any DareDevil writer at this point
I say it as someone who's usually bored of Elektra to shit, her becoming a second Daredevil was pretty cool and she was well-written all throughout.
>Matt being guilt ridden over accidentally causing a death
When did this happen before?
>the series in general apes the TV show too much
It has some similarities at the beginning but develops into its own thing pretty quickly.
>Matt's identity became a secret again.
Zdarsky didn't do this, Soule did. If anything I' pretty sure he had Fisk remember and Matt reveal his identity to Spider-Man again.
>Probably more but yeah overall the run doesn't offer anything other DD runs don't.
What other DD runs offer Matt exploring the nature of his vigilantism, trying to make bolder moves against the system in going up against corrupt billionaires and rehabilitating supervillains?
>retread run
You're just gonna use this as a buzzword criticism for everything aren't you
Devil in Cell Block D is a banger story so yes Zdsrsky is still retreading something
>Elektra daredevil was pretty cool
Just gonna have to agree to disagree here. Total schlock gimmick. I stand my statement that she shouldn't be involved in DD stories anymore.
>Zdsrsky didn't make Matt's identity secret
Doesn't matter if he didn't do it. He has to tell stories within that status quo, so by nature it's a retread from all pre-Bendis DD.
>What other runs offer matt exploring his vigilantism, trying to make bolder moves against the system against corrupt billionaires, and reabilitating super villains
>when has Matt felt guilt over a death he caused
Dude, have you actually read any DD other than Zdarsky? All those themes and aspects of Matt's character you listed are explored heavily in even the shittiest DD runs/stories. The accidental death he caused is in Man without Fear, anon. Y'know that incredibly iconic retelling of Matt's origin story by Frank Miller. And as for the villain rehabilitation are you even aware of who Melvin Potter is? Zdarsky is a hack.
>Devil in Cell Block D is a banger story so yes Zdsrsky is still retreading something
DD going to jail is still more crucial and meaningful to Zdarsky's run than Brubaker's.
>Just gonna have to agree to disagree here. Total schlock gimmick. I stand my statement that she shouldn't be involved in DD stories anymore.
I liked that an effort was made to integrate her into DD's world beyond the Hand bullshit. And even when the Hand bullshit did happen, she wasn't a big part of it.
>He has to tell stories within that status quo, so by nature it's a retread from all pre-Bendis DD.
It's like you're just looking for things to complain about. Matt's secret identity was barely ever a factor during the run.
>The accidental death he caused is in Man without Fear, anon.
I love Miller's original run, but The Man Without Fear is overrated mediocrity by an aging Miller off his meds in Marvel's attempt to have their own Year One, and the sequence you mentioned is one of the reasons why. A stripper accidentally falls off a window, Matt is brooding about his recklessness for a couple of pages... and then goes on to keep doing reckless shit by tying up Foggy's bully, throwing him naked into the snow and leaving him there all night like a fricking maniac. It's almost insulting to compare this to how DD's guilt over manslaughter and ruminations on how it undermines his principles as a vigilante is treated in Zdarsky's run. Zdarsky has put far, far more thought into this than Miller.
>are you even aware of who Melvin Potter is?
A character I like but who hasn't been relevant in more than a decade. And the rehabilitation that Matt attempts in Zdarsky's run has nothing to do with the villains' mental illness and has them actually fight alongside him against the Hand. And yeah, Gladiator kinda did this in Miller's run too but it was pretty brief and noncommittal, I think stuff like Stilt-Man tying up a giant Hand dragon with his stilts is way more memorable.
>dd in jail is meaningful
Not really. Just over long filler. A bunch of shit that Matt has already gone over and established as a character all while not being as fun as Devil in cell block D.
>Miller's version of Matt accidentally killing is inferior.
Why? Because it was handled in a couple of pages vs a couple of issues? Matt causes an accidental death and vows to be more careful that's all you need. You're seriously stretching trying to say fricking with some bully is the same thing as his wonton behavior while Daredeviling.
>i know Elektra being more apart of the world
Again why? She was good in her couple appearances by Miller and goes largely untouched in most runs. Zdarsky is just milking nostalgia and it doesn't work for Elektra. Like I said he's retreading shit instead of making his own mark.
>Melvin Potter doesn't count because he just doesn't okay
Once again you praise Zdarsky for something other writers have done but better and briefer. It's cool if you like Zdarsky'a run anon but please don't pretend it's not a regurgitation of better DD runs. All I've gotten from you is that you actually like all of DD's big stories being repeated but with more content to consume, so I guess I can't fault you for not liking the older stuff if it's just about the new "thing" with you
To add to my point about Man without fear and Matt's accidental kill, that is appropriately placed during his origin. Zdarsky is really just spinning wheels with doing it so late in Matt's career.
>Not really. Just over long filler. A bunch of shit that Matt has already gone over and established as a character all while not being as fun as Devil in cell block D.
It's not filler, it's one of the most important things in the run.
>Why? Because it was handled in a couple of pages vs a couple of issues?
The bully thing is easily one of the most randomly unhinged things Daredevil's ever done, and the fact that it comes right after he "vows to be more careful" is patently ridiculous. Accidentally killing a person isn't something Zdarsky Daredevil can get over in a couple of issues, and the fact that it happens so late is part of the point. It makes him realize how petty and inefficient simply fighting criminals on the streets really is and makes him try to solve problems in more global ways, like opposing billionaires, rehabilitating supervillains, trying to take down the Hand once and for all.
>Zdarsky is just milking nostalgia and it doesn't work for Elektra. Like I said he's retreading shit instead of making his own mark.
What is he retreading? Elektra being Daredevil is making his own mark, that's what his run will be remembered for. Rather than being a femme fatale b***h who's distant and cold to Matt she actually makes an effort to see his side of things and fight crime the way he would've wanted to while he's behind bars. That's the opposite of retreading anything.
>Melvin Potter doesn't count because he just doesn't okay
Melvin Potter just sort of faded into the background. Zdarsky had DD's rehabilitated villains fighting alongside him, even if it was only for a single arc. I very rarely see superheroes actually put active effort into trying to fix their villains. Not just talking or lamenting about it, but actually lifting their ass and working with them personally to try to make them join the cause. The worst part about this in Zdarsky's run was that it didn't last long, but it was an awesome, fascinating idea.
>it's not filler
It's running us through motions Matt has experienced before. That's filler even if you walk away from it with a better understanding of Matt than you did on Man without fear. I did not need that point to be dragged out for me and I was already satisfied with Matt having a fun adventure on jail during Brubaker's run. Zdarsky's jail story is also weak since it's DareDevil serving time and not Matt. Makes it feel less real.
>The bully thing is unhinged
Hardly anon. Sounds like you just like cape comics to be taken overtly seriously. The bully thing is tongue and cheek stuff that you're inflating to make a point.
>opposing billionaires, solve problems in more global ways, trying to dismantle the hand for good, reabilitating villains
Anon, I've already told you that all of those things are built into the character at this point and not at all unique to Zdarsky's run. Being concerned about global issues isn't a good addiction. Matt is supposed to be helping the little guy walking down the street. Dd isn't a global hero and doesn't need to be.
>Elektra
She doesn't need to be brought back at all is the issue. She has been through the whole reevaluating her life before. Making her a female DD is reductionist and is just more of marvels dumb "it's that hero but a girl" gimmick. It's fine if you liked her being changed, but she's not necessary to the mythos after Miller's stuff and I'll always stand by that. Having her be a consistent character isn't necessary and is fueled by a nostalgic mindset.
>Melvin just faded away
Not really he consistently had appearances in the book and fought alongside Matt more than just in Millers run. He's a secondary charcter and didn't need to be constantly featured. Zdarsky retreaded this ground with his villain rehabilitation stuff and all you can argue is that Melvin doesn't count because....he just doesn't.
Just wanted to add that Matt worked his ass off to help Melvin all the time. No idea why you're acting like Zdarsky isn't just taking that mold and applying it to other DD villains.
>Zdarsky's jail story is also weak since it's DareDevil serving time and not Matt. Makes it feel less real.
Daredevil did the crime, not Matt, so Daredevil is doing the time. It's about sending the message and sticking to his principles, inherently tying his vigilantism into this.
>The bully thing is tongue and cheek stuff that you're inflating to make a point.
What is tongue and cheek about it? It's unhinged and part of Miller's gay BDSM fetish, you can find the same "naked tied up criminal" stuff in Year One but at least it's more brief there.
>Matt is supposed to be helping the little guy walking down the street. Dd isn't a global hero
Except run also focuses plenty on him focusing the little people. He goes up against the millionaires because they're trying to destroy Hell's Kitchen and buy up the land. Part of why he disagrees with the Punisher is because Punisher doesn't care about the little guy and what might drive him to commit crimes out of desperation. There's a ton of scenes of him or Elektra helping common people throughout the run.
>She doesn't need to be brought back at all is the issue.
Okay, you just hate Elektra being brought back, whatever.
> he consistently had appearances in the book and fought alongside Matt more than just in Millers run.
This is wrong. The only times Melvin appears after Miller are about him relapsing into villainy for an issue or two. That's literally all he's been used for since then. Now granted, I have no doubts the villains from Zdarsky's run will relapse too, but you're still wrong.
>No idea why you're acting like Zdarsky isn't just taking that mold and applying it to other DD villains.
Because it's becoming increasingly clear to me you haven't actually read his run past maybe the beginning and don't know what you're talking about. Melvin's rehabilitation was about a single guy with mental illness, what DD does in Zdarsky is trying a different approach altogether.
To your first two points I guess we just have to agree to disagree anon. Daredevil serving time instead of Matt isn't interesting and kind of stupid compared to Matt going to jail. Sorry you took the bully thing so seriously but I assure you it's just a harmless gag to show Matt cares for foggy. As for the rest of your post you're just wrong. Potter did appear multiple times and his rehabilitation may not be identical but it's the same idea, so Zdarsky is still retreading regardless of you like the new stuff better and it's not that I don't like Elktra. Certain things are just better left unexplored and I think her being a female DD is very high on that list.
>Haven't read his entire run
I openly admitted that in this discussion. It's boring and retreads stuff done better in older comics.
This anon sums it up pretty well. As for you "caring" about comics, any dipshit can defend a bad run. It doesn't mean you're a bigger fan just because you like to constantly consume. Dd had a good run as a character but for me he ended with Waid's finale.
>Daredevil serving time instead of Matt isn't interesting and kind of stupid compared to Matt going to jail.
To me it's a pretty superficial criticism when there's way more personal agency involved in the former case.
>Potter did appear multiple times
You made me look it up in the blog of a guy who catalogued Marvel characters' chronological appearance up until the late 90s: https://www.supermegamonkey.net/cgi-bin/mt512/mt-search.cgi?IncludeBlogs=3&tag=Gladiator&limit=3000&Template=chronocomic&highlightRow=004413&tagSearch=1#004413
As I was saying, essentially all of Gladiator's appearances post Miller are about him relapsing. His only other major appearance after that was in Bendis' run and was, big surprised, about him relapsing.
>This anon sums it up pretty well. As for you "caring" about comics, any dipshit can defend a bad run. It doesn't mean you're a bigger fan just because you like to constantly consume. Dd had a good run as a character but for me he ended with Waid's finale.
That's fine, but I do genuinely like many ideas expressed in the run and would like to see more of that in capes. Whether you think it's entirely new or not, it's not something that's being done often.
Yes anon Potter relapsed. Just like the villains in Zdarsky's run will or did. My entire point was that Zdarsky is just retreading ground with villain rehabilitation. You can like it, it can be a little different, but it's old ground. The prison thing isn't a nitpick, anon. It's a retread of something matt has already gone through and it's worse because it's about him accidentally killing a criminal instead of causing the death of someone who was just unlucky enough to be with someone DD was after. Sorry anon but Frank's version is just less stupid.
If you think accidentally killing a criminal is something that Matt should be able to quickly get over, then yeah, you don't get the run at all. Matt takes it as a symptom of his general carelessness and the destructiveness of his approach despite striving to be a good forgiving Catholic who guides people rather than helps increase their misery.
You are a homosexual.
Sorry for caring about comics anon.
Denny ONeils stuff is kino
Maybe second to Moon Knight
What are good Batman RUNS? Not miniseries and one-shots like DKR or Killing Joke everyone talked about, I mean actual runs that are part of Batman titles like Detective Comic.
I only checked Englehart’s run
>What are good Batman RUNS?
Alan Grant and Norm Breyfogle's early 90s run.
Thanks, gonna check out some of those someday
Alan Grant, Chuck Dixon, Doug Moench, Greg Rucka, Grant Morrison, Steve Englehart, Denny O'Neil, Matt Wagner, Mike W. Barr, Kelley Puckett, Ty Templeton,etc
Are they all interesting and distinct enough? I don't want to read the same generic batman stories again and again or it gets boring.
Not a single good one lel.
Theres maybe one good moon knight run. And it isn’t by Jed McDonalds or Ellis.
Ed Brubaker.
>probably honestly batman in actuality
Makes sense since DD is just red bats.
I do like it when they lean into it .
That's complete horseshit. They have nothing in common.
This meme is as stale as DC are gods pretending to be human and Marvel is humans pretending to be gods.
first post correct post.
So for Batman the roughly considered "Classic" runs are Morrison, Miller, and then a power gap for Snyder. And maybe if you count Dini's Tec that.
To me it seems Batman has more well regarded OGNs or miniseries than actual believes full fledged runs.
I've always felt that DC was better at one-off graphic novels and miniseries, and that Marvel was better at full-fledged runs. Or maybe it's just easy to say that when DC's collected editions department is so crap at reprinting runs
That's just a tired cliches, it's like saying "DC is Gods pretending to be human and Marvel is humans pretending to be gods".
When I think of good runs the list is Marvel led.
when I think of good OGNs/mini series the list is DC led.
like hell Marvel has a very thin gruel when it comes to stuff on the TDKR, All Star Superman, All Seasons, Year One , Red Son style self contained stories.
God Loves Man Kills and the first two Ultimates I guess?
the Loeb/Samnee Spider-Man stuff?
>When I think of good runs the list is Marvel led.
I disagree vehemently, especially if we count Vertigo (which we should).
>especially if we count Vertigo (which we should).
We shouldn't. Yes, it was owned by DC but for most of its existence it was basically a separate line (spare me the WELL AKSHUALLY Superman was in Swamp Thing). Vertigo is different enough that it doesn't really have any bearing on judging mainline DC quality.
>it was owned by DC
It WAS DC, buddy. Your reasoning of "no shared universe means it doesn't count" is... a real head scratcher.
>Your reasoning of "no shared universe means it doesn't count" is... a real head scratcher.
No, just common sense. It was intentionally a different beast set up for different kinds of stories and storytelling. Personally I'd also argue that Watchmen shouldn't be counted when judging DC quality. DC means mainline DC.
>just common sense
How is it common sense? That's like excluding elseworlds.
>It was intentionally a different beast set up for different kinds of stories and storytelling.
That's what made it good. Add some damn variety if you're gonna publish 50 different things a month
>Personally I'd also argue that Watchmen shouldn't be counted when judging DC quality
lol, dude... just... lol
>That's like excluding elseworlds.
No, because those are variations on the mainline material.
>That's what made it good. Add some damn variety if you're gonna publish 50 different things a month
Yes, I agree it was good, but it had no bearing on the quality of the regular material.
>lol, dude... just... lol
Your lack of an argument is a concession, which i graciously accept. It's good to acknowledge your own limitations.
>Your lack of an argument
Against what? lol. You said Watchmen shouldn't count when naming the quality stuff DC has published because... it's not part of the shared universe? lol
>Personally I'd also argue that Watchmen shouldn't be counted when judging DC quality. DC means mainline DC.
This is a reasonable position. When we talk about Miracle Man we talk about it in separation from the rest of Marvel. Same applies for Watchmen.
Superman, Batman, a Green Lantern, and Adam Strange all showed up in Swamp Thing when Vertigo did not exist.
Miracleman was bought by Marvel the same way Captain Marvel and Plastic Man were bought by DC.
Watchmen has always been DC.
>this entire post
Ugly.
It's the truth.
Very ugly
This is what I’m finding right now, building my shelf up with collected editions. DC’s stuff is more easy to digest because it’s usually the one-offs or miniseries that are more worth owning. Marvel comparatively doesn’t have nearly as much as that, but most of their main heroes have like 6 omnibuses each worth of stuff worth owning.
And Grant... And Wein.... And O'Neil.... and for some Moench and Dixon... and I say The Milligan run counts too even if it's short. And there's also Barr, Wolfman and Starlin that have their fans.
Face it, he's the king.
I'll be honest , I haven't read much Bronze Age stuff.
Zdarsky focused on the wrong things at the end
Instead of wacky Hand demons DD should've been taking down the millionaires like he intended to
His run really did go off the rails after Devil's Reign.
I liked him reforming supervillains but that sort of got dropped too.
No? He's had ONE, and it was Miller. Daredevil as a whole is mediocre
Miller, Bendis, Brubaker, Waid, the first Zdarsky run...
>Bendis
Oh lord... Daredevil must suck if Brian Michael Bendis (the writer) wrote his second best run ever.
that's in chronological order not based on quality.
Have you considered that Bendis used to be better when he started?
Well, he wasn't.
His Daredevil was still shit. It's retread run written by a failed TV writer and drawn buy a tracer with a busted printer.
It's just that comics suck in general and readers are kind of moronic on top of that.
he's had the fewest bad runs
No.
Even The Punisher has more good runs.
Even less people talk about non-Ennis Punisher than people who talk about non-Miller Daredevil
That's because Ennis fanboys make an effort to downplay pre-Ennis Punisher.
Daredevil
>Miller
>Nocenti
>Bendis
>Brubaker
>Waid
>Soule
>Zdarsky
Punisher
>Dixon
>Ennis
>Aaron
>Remender
Nobody talks about Rucka or the original run and they even barely talk about Dixon in the 90s. The only way Punisher is in competition is if you count the fact that Ennis and Aaron double dipped, but that only gets him to 6 runs and Daredevil has 7.
I like Fraction's War Journal, I don't know why Cinemaphile never talks about it
>no Mike Baron or Carl Potts
>simply tossing out Rucka for no actual reason
>actually listing Aaron as anything but the anti-Punisher writer
And then there's also writers of some great miniseries, single arcs, and graphic novels like Grant, DnA, Duggan, Maberry, Salick and more.
The fact that you'd pull Aaron out of the ether before any one of these is a testament to your ignorance. Just because you "never see" any talk of great comics doesn't mean they don't exist.
Aaron is the second MAX writer, like it or not. That's still part of his legacy and not amount of culture warring or trying to pretend he never mattered for the character will erase that.
At the very least three of these are good.
>Bendis
>Brubaker
>Waid
>Soule
>Zdarsky
These aren't good.
This.
you forgot rucka
>Aaron
>Remender
Come the frick on.
Only had bad run recently.
Spiderman is looking strange
Yes but he also has a lot eras that are devoid of anything worthwhile. Pre-Miller doesn't have a lot amazing stuff, the nineties weren't good for the book, and like other anons have said nothing good has been cooking since Waid left. Feels like Cinemaphile doesn't really care for 2000s DareDevil, but I think it's one of the better cape comics of that era.
Zdarsky was good, you're just too lazy to read him.
Not that anon but what the frick are you smoking? His run was all over the place
He had a cool direction of a socially conscious Daredevil, just couldn't hold it to the end
I am that anon and in a way you're right. I am too lazy to power through a run that's nothing but wheel spinning and retreading old ground.
Chichester was good, as was Kelly
I've not read it, but I thought Waid's Daredevil was generally meant to be well-liked? Especially after Bendis and Shadowland
It is well liked. Waid builds on the last 3-4 runs that came previously and also takes the charcter in a new yet natural direction. He got the book back into Daredevil's swashbuckling silver age roots while still allowing Matt to battle with anger and depression like the darker more popular DD runs. Conceptually it's everything a new run of a superhero book should be.
>I’ve not read it but I tell people it’s good because I was told it was good
Sums up why I think comics needed more gate keeping.
Where in that post did I say "it's good, read it!", you moron?
All I said was that I'd HEARD it was decently liked, especially for a modern comic.
Where do you think these canons of "good" comics that people repeat come from? It's the gatekeepers themselves who annoint the Holy Writs everyone MUST know and love.
I remember the threads when some of those rec images were made and a lot of people were saying I head this is good so put it in.
Right, but where did they hear that? Ultimately they're looking to authorities (or self-appointed authorities) on what the "good" comics are and repeating that. It's not necessarily a bad thing and kind of inevitable when it comes to Big Two Comics due to the sheer amount of published material. At some point you're going to have to rely on what other people say to judge what's out there because few to no people have read, for example, every single Batman or Flash or Daredevil book ever published.
>where did they hear that?
I don't care. The point that first anon was making is that people should refrain from talking about things they haven't read.
I was responding to their line about gatekeepers, not the first part, with which I also agree.
>character starts out strong but becomes derailed and a joke for two decades
>becomes an antagonist for another
>gets one more chance, one more run
>its the greatest run of the 2000s and the last time DC had their shit together
I love him so much bros
The first 12 issues and black star mini for this were legendary. Then it IMMEDAITELY falls off the tallest cliff I’ve ever seen.
Grant Morrison writing about what the hell happened with Season 2 of that run is actually a better story than the actual comic.
it's free on their substack I recommend checking it out .
>their
I read and discussed it here when it was posted. He’s deluded if he thinks it’s DC’s fault that Liam went off and started doing that hideous digital painting/mixed media shit with no rhyme or reason. Or that they told him to write a cosmic line wide event level story in 12 issues self contained yet bog it down with a B, C and D plot each being addressed
That run was a fricking mess because he and sharp turned season two into a shitpost.
Up until the end of Johns run Flash NEVER had a bad run. Baron's run was the closest but it's still good. Messner-Loeb, Waid, and Johns back to back with Morrison/Millar mixed in was was four character defining GOAT runs right in a row.
Seconded. Flash, both Barry and Wally, was one of the most consistent books from the Silver Age all the way to Infinite Crisis. Replacing Wally with aged up Bart was the end of this consistency. I did like Williamson's and Adams' recent runs, but not counting those, that's still 4+ great runs, depending on how you want to define the Silver Age and Bronze Age runs
Baron and Messner-Loebs fricking suck. Waid saved the franchise and redefined it.
Messner-Loebs >>>>>> Waid trash
Waid's run is forgettable and generic capeshit outside of a few acclaimed arcs like terminal velocity and return of Barry Allen.
Messner-Loebs run is great, and Baron's run is at least decent.
The Messner-Loebs run is criminally underrated. Once he moves back to he Midwest (around issue #30) the series really finds its footing. The best issues from that run as as good as anything that came from later writers. Issue #54 in particular is arguably the greatest Flash story ever published.
That gets parroted a lot, even though barely anyone cares about pre-Miller DD, practically everything between Chichester and Smith is a blur, and everything from Smith onward is very hit or miss.
I liked the David Mack run even more than Smith.
Only miller run is good, all the others are overrated.
This used to be the basic b***h NPC opinion in the 2000s and I hate how people are regurgitating it now but this time with the veneer of contrarianism as if it's anyless of a boring basic b***h take now than before
You haven't evdn read anything besides Miller
A lot of people still prop up Bendis' awful run.
Frick no. When a character's best runs includes Bendis, you know he's bad.
Spider-Man is a bad character because a lot of people like early Ultimate Spider-Man by Bendis...
Hmm. I'm going to go with Judge Dredd. Although how you count a "run" is someone suspect there.
>Zdarsky
>soule
>Bendis
Are dog shit and I’m sick of you newbies touting meme opinions created by shills.
This is something said by people who watched the Netflix show and maybe read born again but thought it was overrated.
Bendis, Soule, Waid and Zdarsky are always included in these lists and those runs are extremely bad.
>that time in the 2000s where comic tried to emulate police procedurals
Bendisdevil felt like that at times.
It could be pretty kino sometimes. I think Bendis' run is overrated, but still good. Brubaker and Waid's are better.
>Brubaker's better
First time I've heard that. I know general consensus 10-15 years ago was that it was pretty underwhelming.
Yeah I just feel like Bendis' stuff meanders a bit and the style hasn't aged amazingly well, so Brubaker's was better in comparison on my last read through. It's more tightly written and brings a lot of wheels Bendis' left spinning to a satisfying stop.
General cinsensus was that they were both kino and epic and gritty and not for kids. Which was obnoxious in its own way, but now the pendulum swinged the other way to where people hate Bendis and Brubaker and act like nothing good came out of their runs.
Glad we've repaired the mistakes of the past.
The time that gave us Gotham Central? Awesome!
shadowland
black panther as daredevil
Does Cinemaphile make any new recommendation charts anymore? I mainly see old ones that stop around 2013.
Cinemaphile is dead.
That was when Marvel NOW and all that shit was happening. There have been so little comics since then that are worth reading that it's pointless to update the recommendation lists, because there's really nothing new that's good enough to add to them (with very few exceptions).
I liked waid run but it was carried by art
It's between Daredevil, and Swamp Thing.
Swamp Thing only ever had like two good runs, under Moore and Veitch.
Millar, Vaughan, Snyder, V
All of those sucked ass.
What about Wein/Wrightson and Pasko?
>What about Wein/Wrightson
There is a reason why everyone forgot about them the moment Moore popped up.
Nobody forgot about them, casual.
Wrightson era is well worth reading for the art alone.
Veitch run wasn't good. Like, at all.
Wrightson run is still the 2nd most famous on the character. You're an idiot.
Daredevil is nowhere near Swamp Thing.
Even the best Daredevil runs are boring as shit. Boring fricking character. Just like Batman.
Are the original Daredevil issues where he’s teamed with Black Widow any fun? I’m interested in both characters but never paid any attention to them previously, and only just found out she appeared extensively teamed up with him.
Pic related does not reflect their dynamic, it's DD trying to act out to impress her
Black Widow was generally more no-nonsense and less playful there, although that could depend
It has some neat storylines but they can also be convoluted as balls
You can read this if you're interested in the characters, it's Conway so it's guaranteed at least some neat things, like hero and villain philosophizing while fighting