DC should just reboot Nightwing back into Robin.
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DC should just reboot Nightwing back into Robin.
DC should just reboot Nightwing back into Robin.
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>DC should have kept Dick as the new Batman
FTFY
This, barring that, he should be DC Nick Fury
Seriously Dickbats was great and the best time for Damien as Robin.
They were never going to keep Bruce gone that long and you know damn well Dick was gonna be getting the shittier writers even if he had stayed Batman. Tomasi's B&R with Dickbats was already shittier than Morrison's B&R.
He's the best Robin, but it would never happen. Since people would complain too much about all the characters that would get erased if DC went back that far in a reboot and DC would give in.
>5 Batmans
>5 Robins
>5 Batgirls
>2 Batwomans
>2 Huntresses
That is the point. Nuke it all.
>dick grayson
>good robin, let alone best
lol
lmao
this is just a basic category error. he stopped being robin before they started telling actual character stories. nothing about his tenure is relevant.
Robin year one and other such flashback stories are good, but they're good because they know where the character will end up and thus write accordingly.
The fact is that DC post the 80s is frickin irrelevant. The only Robin who matters besides Dick is JT.
Jason todd wasnt relevant untill an animated movie made him have horny fangirls.
And batman comics post 80s were at their highest selling.
DCAU Tim is Jason in all but name.
And every single other robin was given tim's design in adaptations except for gotham knights were tim got damian's. Adaptations are like that, they cut stuff often times in ways fans of the respective characters don't like.
>Adaptations are like that,
Nta. Adaptations make changes. Slapping Tim's name over Jason isn't "cutting stuff", however. Giving Tim a Damian's outfit also isn't since it's purely cosmetic with nothing substancial. Cutting stuff would imply it's a 50/50 thing when this is barely a 90/10.
Therea are absolute composite cases, 2003 dick is a mix of all 3 robins of the time (straightman in team like tim, dick's role in titans, angrier outburst like jason).
I don't see what the argument is, adaptations do stuff like 90/10 or 50/50 or other weird combos all the time. Some understandable some less so.
Few tim or jason fans like dcau tim as an example. Its why fans call him tim todd instead.
Read NTT because the 2003 cartoon’s Robin is literally just Dick. Dick was an angry b***h who played straight man on the team.
Ive read NTT. Dick was angry, sure. But not quite as much the straight man. ONly gar was comedic, and dick was still prone to more wisecracks than tim was. And generally having to act smarter than the rest while also being sometimes immature was more tim's schitkc in YJ. Or within NTT donna really.
'03 Robin wasn't a composite of anyone. They were adapting comics published before they TMNT'd the Robins and turned Dick into a one-dimensional caricature so his clones would have something unique to do.
Jason's a reach, but the tim stuff (uses a staff, is more comically serious in contrast with his wackier teammates, always wears mask) are somewhat present, its 75 percent dick but there's some stuff there.
have you considered that its 100% dick and tim and jason are really the composites?
>always wears mask
Thats not unique to dick the other titans were always in costume too
> I don't understand the argument
You made a generality about adaptations with the worst examples you could find.
>Few tim or jason fans like dcau tim
I'm sure Tim fans don't care since the character is anything like him. Jason fans love it except for the fact he isn't technically Jason. That's the difference.
>this is just a basic category error. he stopped being robin before they started telling actual character stories. nothing about his tenure is relevant.
I don't think Dick should have stayed as Robin considering Nightwing is one of the best things to come out of the NTT. That being said, the writers Batman had in the late 80s absolutely shit on what Perez and Wolfman were cooking.
Anon, the late 80's would be after his tenure, and Wolfman was also writing on batbooks in the late 80's too.
What you mean?
Pardon me sir, but your neckbeard is showing
It doesn't have to be a reboot, he could have sacrificed his age energy to revert Jon back into a boy
That's even worse
>nightwing is one of dc's best sellers
>durr just make him robin again
Cinemaphile is full of braindead morons
Correct
>let’s remove one of the few bits of character progression that stuck
The only people who advocate for this are people who are obsessed with making things like the adaptations and streamlining things because “much TT03 was the most popular version!” Or “dick’s Robin in all the adaptations!”. I.e. people who grew up with those versions and can’t let them go.
Actual boomers don’t even want this. Maybe Mark Waid.
This is the Batman Family you want.
I like Cass existing so yes.
Nobody cares about Cass Cain.
The issue with this is that the batfamily is popular, dc would be shooting themselves in the foot and alineating an actual strong fanbase just to appeal to people with no actual interest in reading it that want stuff to be in a perpetual "classic" state. They tried a lesser version of this and it crashed and burned.
>tried removing her
>they had to bring her back due to fan pressure
>starting to show up in media with gunn being a noted fan
Sure no one cares.
She has a small yet extremely vocal and obsessive fanbase but she has no widespread or mainstream appeal.
>s no widespread or mainstream appeal.
This is stupid to say, there's a ton of anime girls similar to Cass that are massively popular. DC just sucks shit at marketing
Such as?
Mikasa Ackerman
Maki Zenin
Gally
just to name a few. That sort of silent, sensitive, skilled type is popular. She's very blue oni.
Like
said, why go for a cheap knockoff over the real thing? Besides, you're fooling yourself if you think Cass' fanbase is anything other than yellow fever coomers who believe that they could have a chance with her because she's an autist like them.
>Besides, you're fooling yourself if you think Cass' fanbase is anything other than yellow fever coomers who believe that they could have a chance with her because she's an autist like them.
This. The premise of Cass even comes off like a shitty fanfiction but the losers who think they have a shot because she is asian and autistic give it a pass.
Why use batman when sherlock holmes exists? Why use superman when hercules exists? People like character archetypes.
Nta but these characters are from different franchises, world and genre. Batman isn't a Sherlock Holmes character and etc...
>This is stupid to say, there's a ton of anime girls similar to Cass that are massively popular.
So why go for Cass when they exist?
ok then continue not using her even though people are willing to consume more of the same character type over and over and support it. Clearly American comics are doing something right as is.
They tried removing her with an editorial against her, it didn't take because she has a fanbase. That's the thing the least popular bat character is still most popular than 99 percent of dc's characters, and it will always be that way because batman's the most popular character.
And this too tbh.
It's always the Cassgays. They're like a cancer.
Not in this climate. People now don't want whites casted for asian roles. Unless they remove her white ancestry, it's problematic. She doesn't need to be fat, but she can't be half white
There's plenty of half asian actresses, and as if they wouldn't just cass an asian actress to begin with.
We already found the perfect casting though.She's hapa, and she does get cast for roles.
Is that Yumi from Code Lyoko Evolshition?
Bit of a mannish face.
this was peak batfam
This was just the batfam you grew up with.
I grew up with new 52. It's staggering how much better the stories, interactions, and characterizations used to be give or take some hack writers and massive character regressions for drama
>new 52
>better characterization
Jesus Christ you fricking newbies are the worst.
>I-I-I am NOT a newbie
If you started reading comics with the new 52 you will always be a newbie.
Anon you might want to check your brain. Anon was accused of only liking the NML era Batfamily because they grew up with it, they said they grew up with New 52 but clearly they like the older era more.
N52 was DC's last good era
hell yeah it is
Just remove harley and hte actual batfamily characters are the better ones yes? She shouldn't be one, but she's not really treated as one outside of this.
The batfam I want is Alfred, dick (as nightwing), Damian as robin, Bruce and Ace. Absolutely nobody else.
>no bruce as batman
>dick as nightwing
Bold choice. And again they've tried cutting it down, it never works.
Bruce would obviously be Batman moron. Have a (You)
Damian does not work as Bruce's Robin.
they're fixing that now by turning him into Tim but slightly meaner
>turning him into Tim
What does that even mean?
That he's Discount Dick.
>goes to school and tries to be normal
>not as violent and angry anymore
>Not as arrogant
>even his hair is closer to Tim's
He's even wearing red and black now. And dating a fellow vigilante who has daddy issues.
This makes Tim even more redundant. Why even have him around at this point?
Every other comic treats damian as classic angry arrogant damian. And another book writing damian off to make him work with bruce by making him tim just kinda shows how little damian works with bruce.
No, it just shows that those writers don't want his character to progress. He's had enough experiences outside of his assassin upbringing to improve as a character, but they instead prefer to keep him at square one indefinitely.
People only like him because of that tbh, you change him too much and he looses the one thing he has going for him, not as badly as jason mind you but still a factor.
>People only like him because of that
I thought they hated him for it.
People hated him at first becuase he was just an arrogant b***h, they then started to like him because with dick that worked well and he was a yandere. This carried over to other popular dynamics like him and jon. Now he's just well adjusted and normal despite his upbringing.
>yandere
You mean tsundere. Yanderes are crazy fricks who kill anyone that gets too close to people they love.
>Now he's just well adjusted and normal despite his upbringing.
Seems like they over corrected.
He used to be a yandere, he became a tsundere.
Basically.
He's got a fanbase, its hard to really measure. Damian and tim are both way less popular than dick and (especially) jason however.
>by making him tim
it really speaks to how nothing of a character Tim is that damian getting a girlfriend and going to school-only to catch a criminal mind you- makes him tim like.
It's an issue when you jettison most of Damian's character. Tim is the more calm and reserved one. That's one major trait that none of the others had
Because he is still one of the more popular characters. He consistently generates a ton of fan created content.
>He consistently generates a ton of fan created content.
From the Tumblr freaks obsessed with him.
Just like the other robins.
Been around since way before tumblr, anon. I've got fanart on hardrives from Japanese artist websites in the early 2000's.
>I've got fanart on hardrives from Japanese artist websites in the early 2000's.
And we're now in the 2020s. Things change.
And there's still new japanese fanart of him in those sites. What's your point? He's popular. Maybe he's the least popular robin, still more popular than basically everyone that arent the big 7 of the justice league and the biggest villains of the setting.
You're right but I'd argue Damian is the least popular Robin. He's the the only one that hasn't had any popular mainstream appearances and by the time he came around comic readership had plummeted dramatically.
Then how do you determine whether or not a character has any legs? Comic sales? Because one the most popular characters right now is Harley Quinn and she sells like shit. And people decide to draw characters because they like them. The more people that like them the more art there will be of them.
Why argue an easily disprovable fact?
>damian and tim are basically at the same spot with some variation
Doesnt that prove it? And holy frick why does jason have such random spikes? Is it the games and such?
2015 was Arkham Knight.
2021 was HBO Titans
You should do worldwide and all the characters tbh.
>Because one the most popular characters right now is Harley Quinn and she sells like shit.
then she isn't actually popular moron.
there's still artists making art,including ones born after the early 2000's even. Pretty amazing for a character you guys keep saying has no appeal or point.
That's not the point. Any character can get art of them if someone decided to draw them. Those people are too much of a minority to confirm if the character has any legs.
People are seeking out the characters despite their books not being marketed in their country, devoting time to make art of them. That's more legs than most characters DC tries pushing.
DC tried to make Kate Kane a thing and no one really cares about her.
DC writers, artists, and fans have been anti-Robin since before O'Neil and Schwarz ousted Robin in 1969. No matter how Jason Todd was written, people hated Robin's return as Batman's clinging child. But the merchandising brand was lucrative enough for execs to mandate Robin's existence despite resistance. Batman 1989 made a wave of new fans and profits. The Batman brand started multiple ongoing series, plus minis. Solo Batman lovers had their Robin-free books to enjoy.
Tim was crafted to appeal to white male Xillennials with the disposable wealth to collect comics. O'Neil himself said so to major newspapers. Other demographics were only peripheral. Tim was taken seriously as a professional, not as a son needing a sitter; the Dynamic Duo became modular, with perpetually-30 bachelor Batman free to detach Robin as needed.
But the writing was on the wall as early as BTAS in 1992. Outside niche comicbook tropes, the singular purpose of the token child character is for the hero to experience fatherhood. To nurture, to show tenderness, to have his child at stake. In their choice to adapt Jason as Robin in BTAS, Dini and Timm state they needed Robin to be part of a "family unit" with Batman. This is clearly Gunn's same logic in choosing Batman's "actual son" for the biggest Robin appearance in more than a generation.
Xillennials grow up. Nolan movies and Arkham games renew boom of interest in solo Batman.
Tim: too childish and not childish enough at once. Why have a child character who isn't a child?
Tim's most robust fanbase were white 90s comic fanboys who saw Tim as an icon of better times, a nerdy boy outside the hypermacho archetype but unapologetically male. More than Nightwing, Tim's supreme competence and integrity are never transcended by females or minorities for the fact of his whiteness, maleness, or bougie class.
Now he's kissing a boy, and even nostalgics have jumped ship.
Dude about 80 percent of tim's fans are women, just like the other four male robins.
Also tbh gunn is focusing on damian because he likes morrison's stuff. Its not particularly deeper than that. And its likely at least one or two other robins will show up eventually. Given that he also says that tim's origin is one of his favorite non-morrison stories that's something to consider.
How is Gunn going to make Bruce's genetic mystery meat rape baby palatable to the masses?
I guess do hit-girl? And make him a normally made kid without the rape element.
Also more than likely will have other characters to bounce off. Dick for sure. Cass and Babs are almost guaranteed. Tim and/or jason one but not the other given comments. Id bet tim if we by stories he lists liking and cause "brothers who hate each other' is an easy dynamic to make funny.
Gee I dunno do Son of the Demon ie the story Morrison claimed to have misremembered when ruining Talia?
o'neil said it was more for teens and so adults could take it more seriously. And it worked. Same reason for why damian is such a serious edgy character, that is what appeals to teens.
I disagree and tomasi and Gleason proved you wrong. Suck farts homosexual.
By just writing him as a worse cass? Not really.
110% this, it needs to be an established fact
by being comfy, cloying and emotional as per usual, and it works for a brief time and that's it
I disagree.
No Jason Todd?
Okay so here’s my issue with the Bat-family. When you’ve got…a lot. There’s a lot of fricking characters there. When you’ve got all those characters doing the same shit in the same city at the same skill level as Batman he suddenly seems a whole lot less special. But I have that issue with how the other families have exploded. In the old days it was Superman and maybe supergirl or superboy who were off doing their own thing. Now you’ve got two supermen, three superboys, two supergirls, and two steels, all as strong and powerful as regular Superman, all operating out of Metropolis. It’s fricking stupid. And don’t get me started on the fricking Flash family. Two fricking Wally wests what. The frick.
Being fair that image is half batman villains and unrelated characters from an event, not just the batfamily. Currently there's about 8 or 9 core characters depending on if you count duke or not. And none of them have the exact same skillset as batman, most are more specialised/generally portrayed as not quite on his level yet.
The problem rn is that they don't give them solo books so most of them just hang around in the main book doing little but still being there out of obligation because people want to see their favorites around.
>Currently there's about 8 or 9 core characters
That’s still way too many fricking characters
There are currently 10 batman and bat adjcacent books being published.
>Currently there's about 8 or 9 core characters
Batman
Nightwing
Damian
Timbo
Jason
Spoiler
Cass
Babs
Helena B.
Helena W.
Batwoman
Batwing
Signal
Ghostmaker
Jace (Kinda)
Catwoman
Harley Quinn (Kinda)
Those are too many fricking characters. And I'm sure I've forgotten a few.
I think having a lot of characters, not necessarily core, is fine. A big problem nowadays is that they have all these characters yet the city and dc world in general feels smaller than ever. Back in the day they did a better job of spreading them out and chopping up situations so that it didn't feel like everybody was just randomly hanging out doing nothing
Because most of them don't sell. They're just dead weight.
>Jace
>Helena W
>Batwing
>Ghostmaker
Are not really core characters, its like counting azrael, they show up sometimes but they don't interact as a group. Harley isn't a family character either
wait there’s two fricking Helenas?????
Yeah, the Earth 2 one just exists again for some reason.
how many times has she interacted with Bruce and Selina?
>When you’ve got all those characters doing the same shit in the same city at the same skill level as Batman he suddenly seems a whole lot less special
None of them is at a level of Batman in skills, importance or competence. So this is like complaining Robin ruined Batman.
It's death by a thousand cuts. Cass has to be the best fighter, Tim is smarter and cleverer and a better detective and the most intelligent. Oracle is the better hacker. Then they need to find stuff for Jason and Steph and Duke and Huntress and the rest to do.
casual here, who even buys the comics of the other characters other than collectors?
Fans of those characters
I think you need to be off the deep end to buy punchline, so again, collectors
It would be cool if all these characters died and we just moronic at square one. Where did all these useless women come from? They need to be eliminated.
Instead of talking about who we'd cut, let's talk who is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY to keep. Your ideal Batfamily. For me it's:
>Bruce as Batman
>Alfred
>Dick as Nightwing. He should either be in Bludhaven or with the Titans. Keep him out of Gotham unless it's an emergency that requires everyone be called in.
>Babs, but she can't be Batgirl anymore. She doesn't need to be Oracle, because it never made sense for her to remain crippled for so long in a universe like DC where schizotech is common, but she's outgrown Batgirl. Give her a new identity and stick her with the Birds of Prey.
>Jason can exist, but he stays dead after Death in the Family. He does not come back at all. I like Red Hood but if they refuse to let his story play out to a logical conclusion then he shouldn't exist.
>Tim is Red Robin. Go back to the Pre-Flashpoint costume. Give him his own city to protect and keep him with the Young Justice group. Explore whether or not he actually wants to be a vigilante for the rest of his life. He only did it at first to drag Bruce out of his grief after Jason's death, and now not only has Bruce recovered, but he's been replaced as Robin. Who is Tim Drake now without Robin?
>Steph is Spoiler, sticks to Gotham.
>Cass is Batgirl, sticks to Gotham.
>Damian is Robin
>Kate is Batwoman. She's in Gotham but she does her own thing.
>Helena Bertinelli is around but mainly sticks with the Birds of Prey unless there's an emergency that requires all hands on deck.
Selina should not be considered part of the Batfamily unless they commit hard to her reformation like on Earth 2. Harley should NEVER be considered part of the Batfamily and needs to stay out of Gotham. Everyone else is superfluous.
This is basically what we have now and the Batman family is way too bloated.
>Jason staying dead
>no Duke
>no Jace
>no Luke
>no Azrael
>no Orpheus
>no Onyx
>no Calvin Rose
>no Bette
>no Harper
I mean you're not exactly wrong but cutting out all of the above does a lot.
Half of these are basically gone already. Only three do stuff consistently, and one keeps having good books while being disconnected from everything else.
>Joker
>Harley
>Grifter from WildCATS???
>people who grew up with those versions and can’t let them go.
Like how you are with your preferred version of the Batfamily?
Nah, I grew up with BTAS reruns and Teen Titans too.
Isnt the biggest anon here defending the post nml batfamily someone who grew up with the new 52? Why do you just rely on the "no u" instead of actually trying to argue points on any level?
That’s moronic but I do think they need to treat him as a supporting cast member rather than a leading man more often.
To do what, suck Bruce’s dick?
A solo book with him as Robin and he is high school age is my dream book. He has to go to a Gotham Academy on some mission and you have a pre-Batgirl Babs, one of Lucius Fox's kids, Helena B., and others all go to the school and you use it as a setting for stories.
That's moronic.
Just kill him
remember what they didn't give you enough of
Bruce and Damian are awkward, juiceless. Father and son is weird for one. Then while I get that he can't control Damian, who is a blood thirsty super ninja, and so allows him to put himself in danger, I don't buy that it'd be him beside him, taking him into that danger. All the loss, all the trauma, he's not going to watch his child narrowly avoid bullets every night. And finally the main and obvious thing, the dynamic. Dick and Damian inverted the classic Batman as hardass and Robin as fun and fancy free, and it was refreshing. Bruce and Damian as two hardasses, two driven autists is inert. What's the angle, what's the appeal?
The problem is that damian is just a mini more violent bruce. He's fantastic with dick, but with bruce its just two of the same.
If you're writing a Batman that can't even crack a smile you're not writing Batman.
Silver age batman suck and silly
I feel like Damian doesn't work as a lead character. It always feels awkward.
I think damian works great as a lead character, he just needs someone to balance him out. And bruce isn't that.
Maps?
Maps isn't for the heavy bat stuff and it would be a crime against humanity if she ever gets dragged into it, at least before she grows up and claims Damian
He can but it takes skill to do and for growth to stick
Damian seems tailor made to be Dick's own version of Jason Todd and trying to fit him in any other role doesn't work to me.
That only makes sense if they reset the whole goddamn universe.
What are your favorite Nightwing stories, side characters are villains?
*or villains
Top five villains are Deathstroke, Raptor, Tiger-Shark, Pyg, and Lady Vic
Top five side characters (excluding the obvious batfam and ntt members) are Defacer, Ravager, Tarantula (Law), Tiger, and Sonia Zucco.
Top five stories are A Knight in Bludhaven, The Black Mirror, Grayson, Nightwing must Die, and Leaping into the Light. I know he wasn't Nightwing for two of those but whatever.
>Top five side characters
Emy could get in there, Dick was cooler as a police officer than as a billionaire who doesn't do anything.
>Top five stories
Nightwing on the Razor Edge, Tarantula's entire arc is also pretty cool.
I totally forgot about Amy Rohrbach. Yeah, she's in over John Law.
Dick is better as Nightwing. He gets rare character progression. If anything should change with him, it should be going forward, not backward.
.....Fricking why? Nightwing is great. Your better question is wondering what the frick to do with Tim and Damian
Too bloated with legacy characters.
Keep one or two titles set in the current DCU as Earth 2 like they did in the 70s. Do a Trinity book starring Damian, Jon, and Trinity. Do a Justice Legion book featuring the loved but unecessary legacy characters who will get wiped out in the great reset. Then start everything over again.
They tried that in the new 52, the earth 2 thing, it didn't work.
No they didn't. The New 52 Earth 2 was full of unrecognizable, day 1 reboot versions of the JSA.
>and Trinity
Ew.
Could you at least give a reason for this shitty idea?
Worldwide data goes like this, with search trends
Specyfing character
Tim and damian are either tied or there's a one point difference.
It looks very different if you specify the comic book characters.
I posted it right after, its a difference of one point for tim and a massive difference for jason...dunno why?
Yes.
I would torch the entire DCU down to ashes to get teen Donna back.
>flashback book isnt enough
>Character growth must be backpedaled
You're the reason why dc's the way it is.
Really? With a dozen dingleberries clinging to Batman for relevance while making pancakes in the manor?
Stop creating redundant characters. If we had it your way we'd be on Batgirl #8.
The webtoon is more popular than anything dc's published in a decade so yes (1.4 Million), there's an audience for that, more than there is for just repeating the same status quo from the 70s.
There are characters that fail to get an audience people will show what they like. No one remembers onyx.
>The webtoon is more popular than anything dc's published in a decade so yes (1.4 Million)
Those numbers are nothing big picture-wise. It's only "impressive" compared to comic sales.
1.3 M followers is impressive...total views is 119 million
So its more popular than any current ongoing, meaning there's more interested people in it, good we can agree 🙂
and how much profit does this generate? These webtoons are the same as fanarts or fanfics, they are shit but there is a moronic audience that consumes them (if they are free)
>if they are free
And that's the kicker. Had these stories had a price tag attached to them, would they actually sell as much as they're being viewed?
>and how much profit does this generate?
It gets the characters in people's heads and creates fans in places that wouldn't go to comic shops or bother looking up reading guides online. They in turn do free marketing by talking about the characters in fandom or buying merchandise or making the characters look appealing and cool.
They want cute/normal looking girls wearing the merch and talking about these characters on Tiktok because it's better optics(in theory) for the brand than aging nerdy guys with bad fashion sense. The comics are loss leaders.
It must be working very well, DC is launching more and more webtoons, isn't it.....
They had 3 more but they finished like a year with no sequels or new series announced
Webtoon has ads plus dc gets paid by webtoon to have their IP there, so im guessing they make money from that plus the repints are sold at bookstores, not comic stores, so presumably they do very well.
To be fair Donna has had negative character growth, ever since NTT she stays mothering her teammates and manchild boyfriends. WFTT was the most enjoyable the character has been in ages.
I know Roy’s a c**t but he’s MY c**t <3
If they made the comic/movie/series combo "Batman Reborn" then Dick could be Robin again and Batman could get tossed off a cliff by Rhas, smash into oblivion, and magically not be dead after a moment of silence.
>clear progression from the 40s to 2009
>regression afterwards.
DC should have just kept him as batman.
>Cinemaphile: durrrrrrr DC reboots all the time and it sucks
>also Cinemaphile: durrrrr why don’t they just reboot Dick back to Robin??!
Maybe...its different people within an anonymous board?
>Jason fans love it
Anon most jason fans don't care about pre-hood jason, there are some sure, but most just want him as the edgy bad boy. And dcau tim is based on pre-edgy jason.
yes this seems a moronic enough idea for DC to do it.
No they should kill him.
At this point the only way for Dick to be actual character is for him to be completely cutoff from the batfamily. I say completely because if you give batfamgays an inch, they'll take a mile.
His personality and general character gets cut to pieces whenever they shove more batcharacters into his book. He can't be smart because Tim and Babs are supposed to be smart, he can't be angry because Jason is supposed to be angry, he can't be a competent fighter because they need an excuse for all these characters to fricking show up, etc. They keep taking his good villains and he can't keep a supporting cast worth shit because the batfamily takes up most of the roles (love interest, father figure, friend/confidant, etc) and page time.
People need to stop treating Nightwing like a true solo character and treat him like a successful spin-off character that unites two major franchises.
Nobody complains when Venom keeps tying back into Spider-Man. Nobody complains when Wolverine's closest friends are Nightcrawler and Storm.
Dick spent 44 years as Robin the Boy/Teen Wonder. He's been Batman's surrogate son since day one. The Titans have been his best friends since the 60s. He's been paired with Batgirl since the 70s. This is his supporting cast.
You can get rid of the extra Robins and Batgirls and all the mini-me legacy characters, but don't dump 3/4ths of his character history down the drain.
That's what the OP wants, it's moronic.
No I'm saying if you're keeping him as Nightwing then ignoring all his history is moronic. I'm pro-reboot.
You don't have to ignore his history. You just remove him from where he's doubly and triply redundant to let him do his own thing.
>let him do his own thing.
I miss Grayson
me too
I really dont like grayson and abhor king's writing style, its the reason king has been shitting the comic industry for years now.
But nothing ignores his history. A reboot would erase all of it.
true
just how big is the Bat-Family anyways?
I feel like they're an entire army unto themselves.
9 core characters rn.
The Bat Family probably outnumbers the Gotham PD at this point.
>Bruce
>Alfred
>Dick
>Jason
>Tim
>Damian
>Duke
>Babs
>Cass
>Steph
>Selina
are the main ones
>Helena
>Kate
>Luke
>Harley (yes DC has started to count her as one in the last few years)
are more secondary ones
And then there's members who used to be more important and have fallen to the wayside years ago
>Harper
>Bette
>Julia
>Jean-Paul
Luke fell trough too. But jvp got a Kino mini
People would complain less if Jason, Tim, Duke, Cass, and Steph were all demoted to the secondary.
Bruce chose Jason and Tim to be Robin and later adopted them as his sons. It's stupid to suggest they don't belong in his main inner circle. It makes far more sense for them to be there than Barbara or Selina.
Tim maybe, but the loudest of the DC haters during new 52 were Stephgays and Cassgays because both of them were gone.
And Jason is second behind Dick when it comes to having fans (and tbh is probably first when it comes to casual fans)
And even though nobody actually cares about him, Duke becoming less prominent would result in an uproar due to him being the only black guy. Taylor got harassed months ago because Duke wasn't on a Nightwing cover with the rest of the batfam
Jason is the bad boy, that's the appeal. If he's getting the invite for milkshakes and movies they've fricked it up.
Leaving Duke out of a spread that includes Tim and Spoiler and Cass and Bitewing is worth complaining about. There's no reason to complain when the team is whittled down to Bruce, Dick, Babs, and Damian.
Your complaint is only worth it if you're actually a customer. Most twits complaining about Duke being left out don't buy comics. If they did, then the titles the claim to like wouldn't constantly be getting canceled.
I'm not just buying the Nightwing comic, I'm buying Bruno Redondo's original art.
https://blackdiamondbcn.com/product-category/bruno-redondo/
steph and the dog are whatever but Tim and Cass have real history with Dick. Hell they're basically what formed the "batfamily" as people know it
Ehhh of the early batfamily Dick & Cass were easily the one who had less fleshing out. The only ones that were less fleshed out were JPV with Babs & Helena and Helena with Cass.
Like Dick entrusted her with kicking Slade's ass when he was indisposed but that's about it. He didn't get many scenes with her like he did, Babs, Tim, and Helena, and Dick showed up more in JPV's solo more than he did Cass'.
Dick only showed up in Cass' solo so Cass could have a 'tismo moment after Babs broke up with Dick then wouldn't stop crying.
Was this before or after mouth-to-mouth resuscitation?
Steph and Tim found screaming and crying
>that Stephgay who went to every DC panel at SDCC whether they were bat related or not to ask the same question and b***h about Steph not existing
Hard to believe that was more than a decade ago now.
#WafflesForSteph by that weirdo was my favourite comic thing ever
>"Hey everyone send waffle mix to DC's offices to show how much we love her and want her back"
>Articles on Bleeding cool thousands of tumblr likes to promote the campaign
> The day arrives Didio prepares to be crushed by an oncoming wave of batter mix
>Something like 6 package arrive and Steph isn't seen again for years
You just don't get fandom crazy like that anymore
Idk batfamilygays on twitter are certainly trying
Some of them burned pics of Taylor because they hate his Nightwing run
>batfamilygays
Come on its dinahbabs and dickory shippers, some overlap but not the same thing.
No the main one (camphobiic) was an batfamilygay mad Taylor keeps writing Babs out of the chair even though she’s been like that for almost 15 years and is mad that Taylor is peak white liberal
Wasnt that same one a clear dinahbabs shipper? Given the whole "barbara gordon is a lesbian actually' bit.
They need to cut Tim, Jason and Steph at bare minimum. I like all three of them but they have the most issues and since DC is unable to fix them, they shouldn't be around anymore in the main continuity.
>Jason is popular because of the movie but they can't commit to any kind of direction with him and so he's stuck going every which way at once. Ideally, he should stay the frick away from Gotham, Bruce, and the rest of the Batfamily but the stupid casuals won't like that.
>Tim is incredibly redundant now that Damian is the current main Robin. He's too bland to compete with Bruce's biological son who was raised by assassins.
>Steph should not be there if Tim is not there.
How the hell do you justify cutting Tim and Jason while still keeping Duke?
Honestly, I'd cut Duke, Luke and Jace but the representation crowd would pitch a b***hfit about it. I don't hate any of them but I don't like them either and they all feel superfluous. Jace only exists because they didn't want to use Luke as the Black Batman of 5G, Duke is a remnant of 5G, and David Zavimbe is the superior Batwing.
>Duke is a remnant of 5G
I meant to say he's a remnant of New 52
They'd b***h and moan on Twitter for a day or so before getting outraged at something else and then forgetting about the issue completely. None of the diversity hire batpeople have any sizeable fanbases so even if the representation crowd complains not very many people are going to care enough for it to have an impact.
Steph is fine as Cass' best friend. Tim is *bland* but it also makes him the most unique of the other three Robins in him being more introverted.
>Steph is fine as Cass' best friend.
Maybe
Okay, but what is Tim actually doing right now? He's been stuck as the odd one out ever since Damian came along. For fricks sake he's gone backwards and is now Robin again even though he should be 21-22 years old at bare minimum by now given Damian has aged four years since his introduction.
Idk if "what are they doing right now" is a good argument, tim's still really popular, getting rid of him would be stupid. Just give him a new ID. There was cool art of him as red x, do that.
>tim's still really popular
Not really.
Tim isn’t popular anymore, he couldn’t weather through 10 bad issues. In comparison Dick weathered through 27 bad issues of not even being himself.
You could argue that Tim is not even himself anymore.
>what is Tim actually doing right now?
Being part of a yaoi pairing, apparently.
Now, I'm not a huge Western comic fan but I decided to see what Tim's been up to for the last year since he came out as a wienersucker. A 10 minute google search proved fruitless.
I did learn that Tim is getting a new graphic novel of collected issues in a couple of months. Looking at the issues collected reminded me why I got out of Western comics. This crap is too complicated man, pic related
Dick’s 27 bad issues has the dangling carrot of him going back to the Dick they want. None of Tim’s fans who wanted him straight wanted to support that book because they knew they’d never get classic Tim back. And the fans that liked gay Tim hated the art.
The way the word popular gets thrown around in this thread is some of the most cope shit imaginable. Like, I get that Dc has been shit for a while but pretending that you're still living in the 2000's and all you're faves are relevant is just sad. Its glaringly obvious that comic wise Tim, Jason. Steph and Cass and are all dead in the water and Jason at least has UtRH, and Arkham Knight fans and Damian may get a movie.
>muh decades old fanart
>muh webcomic
>muh mikasa (lol)
Shitty comics that sell out the top 100, zero meaningful adaptations in literal decades, dead fanbase. Just accept the inevitable.
>dead in the water
this is bullshit reasoning when millions were spent pushing Peacemaker of all fricking characters.
No one reads comics. Using comic sales as metric to determine a character's appeal is pointless. The MCU is the most popular comic-related franchise in history and it had almost zero impact on comic sales. Mainstream appeal is ultimately what determines a characters success. A single popular appearance from a video game, movie or TV show, even if it was decades ago, does more for a character than being in a successful comic ever could.
Exactly, but fanboys don't want to take the fricking L and admit that nobody but them cares about their nerdcrap.
The thing about this line of thinking is that it also means that all it takes is one popular adaptation for those characters to matter.
17 years ago you'd be saying Jason was pointless because a dead Robin is too hard to adapt, then after the UTRH movie came out now you have people who'd say it's one of the most important stories to adapt. 25 years ago most people had no clue who the Teen Titans were.
>The thing about this line of thinking is that it also means that all it takes is one popular adaptation for those characters to matter.
It's ALWAYS been like that. Like I said, nobody but nerds themselves care about their nerdcrap.
then there's no point in saying a character can never be popular because ,like it's been said, all it takes is getting a popular adaptation.
Hypothetically yes; any character could potentially become popular but the chances of that happening to the vast majority of them is astronomically low.
>there's new fanart
>the webcomic is far more popular than any dc comic in publication and we have numbers
>There's a constant stream of similar characters who are popular
Also cass is in the new movies too, tim, steph and jason likely arent. But tim has a lot of high profile adaptations, jason has the most popular of the lot..and steph doesn't really.
Cass has one in name only movie appearance
And said movie flopped.
Saying that gunn keeps talking about how much he loves cass since 2011, and said she was one of the three characters he'd like to do a film for the most. She's gonna get a film.
Gunn has been running his mouth almost non-stop and 99% of it has been complete bullshit. A Batfamily film is dead on arrival considering his Superman movie is almost certainly going to underperform. Warner will more than likely pull the plug on anything that is to come after that.
He made peacemaker make money.
His Suicide Squad movie flopped and streaming isn't profitable. The character made no money.
No, DC should NOT reboot Nightwing's ass. They should retcon Tim being gay for Bernard. Tim only has one man in his heart.
This should rename him so Batman stops talking about how much he loves Dick. Just call him Rick. His names frickin Richard after all. It's not wienerandballsard.
you can't escape Dick. It's too important
Look, these comics aren't ever going to become big sellers. It's a niche thing for nerds and dipshit collectors. It's best to cut the crap and go all in on other avenues for big time profits. And if any nerds complain, frick em. They ain't big money anyway.
There are no numbers. There is no sales, licensing, nothing. Does anyone know how much Panini pays DC, Marvel (and practically any American publisher) to have a near monopoly on publications outside the USA?
This is probably important, Panini has never published as much stuff as it currently does here in Brazil.
What would that even do for the character? set him back years and wouldn’t the rest of the titans need to be de aged as well
Then what happens to the three subsequent robins?
>pic
What? No Ric Grayson?
Bruce is dead, Dick is Batman.
Barbara is Oracle (ignore that she returned to walking in the New 52), Tim is Red Robin and is in the Titans, since Dick is Batman and has to lead more important things (League), Tim is in charge of organizing the Titans. Cass is Batgirl, Steph is Spoiler and they work in Bludhaven, they may appear from time to time in Gotham for a hello. Damian is the Robin from Batman and Robin. Jason(who kill Joker) is THE big villain (or anti-villain), wearing Morrison's B&R uniform and who wants to "correct" Bruce's method. Helena might show up in Gotham from time to time for some action and a good frick. Catwoman can keep doing what she's doing. Duke, Harper, Luke, Harley.....they all go to limbo. Bring Harold back to help Batman. I would go from there!
make Dick contract AIDS, he will be forced to retire and Rose becomes the new Nightwing.
Everytime we talk about the current state of the batfamily it becomes inmediatly obvious how Tim should just die or retire, Jesus Christ
>Bruce
>Alfred
>Dick, becomes nightwing and substitutes Batman if needed
>Barbara, gets oracle'd, recovers her legs, stays oracle
>Jason, dies, becomes red hood, turn into an actual DC punisher
>Tim, not a gay, becomes robin for a while after Jason death, get hard mogged by red hood Jason and eventualy Damian, realizes he doesn't compare to the rest, makes peace with it and either retires into a civie life or gets send to titans hell
>Steph, same thing as Tim, rejected robin, batgirl/spoiler for a while, gets mogged by Cassandra, retires
>Damian, main robin with super sons crossovers
>Cassandra, main batgirl, Barbara and Steph are just support cast
There, Kate and the rest of diversity hires don't matter
With this the only active members are
>Bruce
>Dick
>Jason
>Damian
>Cass
>Alfred and Barbara if you count their roles as "active"
And the rest are just minor support characters
Still got too many fricking characters.
it should always be
>batman
>robin
>batgirl
>former robin
>former batgirl
>outsider
We can debate who, but that's the optimal bat setup.
Personally, I'd have Jason be the first Robin instead. It means much more for Batman's first sidekick and son to be the one that dies. Then his greatest failure comes back to haunt him as the Red Hood. It'd also re-contextualize his relationship with Damian as he'd be both the second Robin and second son.
That just makes the idea of there being other robins fundamentally stupid tbh. It only works if you want to do serious loner batman all the time.
And Damian doesnt work with bruce at all tbh. Damian's great as dick's robin, but he has zero chemistry with damian cause damian is by design a little more arrogant bruce.
This doesn't make any sense, why would Bruce have more Robins if the first one sucked.
If at first you don't succeed, try, try again!
Especially damian after jason
>Ah yes taking an impulsive aggressive kid as robin didn't work
>gotta do it again
Its as dumb as tnba retconned in jason and then he takes in tnba tim.
go away sean murphy, your white knight series was ass
The funny thing is that it was a mistake that they decided to keep. But nothing changes, the roles remain the same, Dick being the one Bruce needs to reconnect with to resolve things.
And Jason is expendable!
How much a casual is Murphy if he doesn't even know his Robin order?
Even my friends who only watch superhero movies and play games know the Robin order from Arkham games.
Considering the fact the batfamily now has like between 12 and 15 members cutting it to 4 crimefighters (Batman doesn't count since he's a given and Jason can just flip flop between unlikely ally and rival/villian) and two supports isn't half bad
Jason hasn't been a rival/villain for 15 years
Or you can skip Tim and Steph and go straight to Damian and Cass. No reason to keep them around if they're not gonna matter in the end. Just wasting space to appease a minority of fans.
but Tim and Steph are better characters than Damian and Cass
Its almost as if cass, tim and steph are all close.
As if. They're two of the most boring ones.
Jason's the most boring one that people like. Duke, bette, harper, Kate, Luke, Jace, the batman Inc guys are all significantly more boring.
Tim and steph haven't been written well in a while, but Jason has one good comic and babs hasn't been written well in a decade. And Dick has no conflict anymore.
>but Jason has one good comic and babs hasn't been written well in a decade
Nobody care about the comics. Jason got popular because of the animated movie.
the only way you could possibly think that is if you just glanced over their origins and not the actual stuff they've been in
In this thread made by secondaries that don't pickup comics?? No way bro.
comics are NERDSHIT bro don't you know you fricking NERD I'm not a nerd I watch DC animated movies like a sexhaver.
Kek
>one good book
Under the hood socks too.
Tim hasn't had a good book in 20 years (no, his wankfest called Red Robin wasn't good), and Steph's only good book ended 13 years ago. Tim is also generic smart guy that DC will never actually push because Batman sells more than him and Steph is generic happy blonde girl and DC has a dozen of those.
Red Robin was good at least the first run, the second maybe. And babs hasn't had a good book since 2011, and jason had one good book in his entire 41 year history...
Virtually no character has had a good book in 20 years. That's why they all sell like shit and movies and tv always use the same stories from decades earlier.
>Keeps Damian and Cass
Already it's fricking garbage
It ain't the 90s anymore, dude. Get with the times.
Since DC will never actually kill off main batfamily members due to them being the only popular characters they have, Dick, Jason, and Babs can all leave the batfamily permanently. Dick doing his own thing in Bludhaven, Jason traveling with Artemis and Bizarro as Outlaws, and Babs in Platinum Flats or traveling with Birds of Prey.
Why did you ressurect a clearly bait thread almost dying to post that?
Why didn’t your mom abort you
DC should let Nightwing impregnate Defacer!
Would this stop the rabid fighting between the fandoms?
DickCHADS want this.
Babsmanlets and korymanlets seethe at it.
Ok monkey paw for you. Dick is de aged to robin but everyone else is still the same age.
I liked Red Robin outside of the name and it being kinda wanky near the end
Why does DC refuse to bring him back?
Because he sucked
How does one save the Batfam?
You don't. License out all the non batfamily DC characters so they can be used better by others and then let DC and Batman rot
tbh rn they're the only popular thing DC has.
Give in to the porn crowd and just draw suggestive art of them. It's what the people want, and by people I mean me.
Apparently about half the writers on Wayne family Adventures are JayTim or JayDick shippers. I genuinely wouldn't be surprised if as the old writers retire and younger Millennials and GenZ who grew up with Tumblr and Twitter fandom take over it gets a lot more shippy.
These people don't buy comics.
Then provide them with comics they will buy. They're cows. They will buy shit.
Doubtful this will stuff. And its not half the writers, just one artist. Another artist is a tim/steph shipper, and so on.
Get rid of everyone except Bruce, Alfred, Dick, Jason, Tim and Barbara.
Adapt Wayne Family Adventures into a cartoon