Death Battle

Yes and yes

Excuse me?

Excuse me?

Working backwards here.

>Hank Pym vs Ray Palmer
Hank accidentally shrank himself and has no idea what he's doing. Ray has his belt.

>Trunks vs Silver
SSJ vs an Archie hog, the SSJ should win.

>Black Adam vs Apocalypse
Black Adam gets Marvel Family scaling, and given how their powers work in Fawcett, he's actually stronger here than in any of his post-crisis appearances. Apoc has...Beast scaling.

Non-blue Beast.

>Bond vs Wick
There's no way Bond wins just off Casino Royale.

>Boba vs Predator
Boba has no feats.

>Dio vs Alucard
Dio isn't a vampire yet.

>Bucky vs Jason
Well, this is interesting.

This might flip since Jason has Robin gear and Bucky just has a costume. He didn't become a dedicated gunman until the retcons.

>She-Ra vs Wonder Woman
He-Man scaling out of the gate stomps car level strength.

>Black Canary vs Sindel
Dinah doesn't have the Canary Cry. It's a girl with judo skills vs someone with actual super powers.

>All Might vs Might Guy
All Might is his world's superman, Might Guy doesn't get any of his gates.

>Black Widow vs Widowmaker
Black Widow is just a Russian fem fatale. She doesn't even carry a gun.

>Thor vs Wonder Woman

Touching an actual 2D object would shred you on the atomic level.

Which says a lot about what would happen if a 4D being tried to touch you.

The reason "higher dimensions" have more power is because writers arbitrarily give such characters super powers. But that's like assuming all 3D beings must be like Superman or Silver Surfer.

Yeah, dimensional tiering is also a crock of shit. Logically, higher dimensional and lower dimensional beings simply can't interact with each other. They're always missing a spatial dimension with which to do so. And this is assuming a dimension means a spatial measurement. Could most of us even see a truly 1 dimensional being, a creature of pure length? It wouldn't even be a line, since that requires some element of width. It would be completely invisible to us.

Go back to cleaning Clark's nutsack, Mxy.

Ideas are no more "immortal" than anything else. How many have been birth than have been lost to time? Do you even know who Flip the Frog or Blackie Sheep are? Bet you don't, you can argue that even one person remembering keeps them "alive" as it were, but it's only a matter of time before theyr're lost to time. That is the fate of a human ideas and constructs because there will be point when they are forgotten, when they are lost to time, there's no fighting it, it's the fate of all things. One person cannot erase the image of Mickey Mouse, but Mickey Mouse cannot last eternally, as mankind is not eternal, nor is our culture.One day Mickey will be forgotten, as all things eventually will, regardless of far that may be.

Unless it was the original copy, before it was fully published, you didn't accomplish anything.

It doesn't matter. Because they're fictional, they have no impact on the world, unless we as people give it to them, because they are part of ourselves and not beings in themselves. Also they are shaped by our own expirences with them, your idea of "Mickey Mouse" is not the same as mine, I could theoretically kill my concept, wihiles yours remains untainted, it is one singular idea but thousands, millions, united by a tied brand by the Walt Disney Corporation. You are not asking me to be as strong as time, but as strong as every other singular person on earth who has ever thought of Mickey Mouse.

Which again only matters if you've ever heard of him. What is Mickey to some bumfrick tribe in the middle of some island that has never known what a televison is, let alone any of the characters from the last 100 years it's carried?

No you silly moron. I'm saying ideas have as much power as we give them, and not all ideas have the same amount of power in each person. They shaped by our values and expirences, and only given power when it decide they do.

[...]
Obviously, there's only one way for us to settle this debate.
[...]
This [...] Anon and Essex vs The Very Concept of Ideas and Characters.

Ha.

Except when it doesn't. Because not all characters are given the same weight by the same people. These threads a good example of this, you believe one character is stronger than another based on what you know of them, but what you BELIEVE of them. There are no hard numbers, there are no real mesurments, just what you've seen with your eyes, just what you've read, and basing everything on that, and what you know of them and the world around you. It is an ebb and flow of what we understand of what we see.

And that's dumb. "Notoriety" only lets you know a face, people and characters aren't just their faces you know, that's why the mutiverse exists. Because no every verison of that person is the "same" person

Good ol capeshit, letting Mxy do and say whatever the frick he wants and you can't argue because frick you

>But we do give ideas impact on the world. This is a readily evident truth. Humankind has been driven by ideas since day one. We've fought wars over them, lived and died, as we change them and as they change us.
But it almost never a set unified idea. But each person's general idea of the idea, the idea of the idea if you will. As again it molded by a person's values and what they've been through in their lives. The framework is there but it is not the same

>Do you see what we're getting at here? That a fictional idea can be stronger than any single human? That seeing something as fictional doesn't mean you have any measure of control over it? That said fictional idea could in fact have a measure of control over you? Are you willing to openly and flagrantly violate copyright in a public setting with your real name attached?
See above. Ficitonal characters only have the power we give them over ourselves, one could easily forget them the second you see them, or they could last for yeas and decades. Their power is what we give to them, what we as people value in our own lives and want to keep in them.

>Precisely. Are you? That's what it takes to kill an idea, in addition to removing every trace that said idea ever existed.
It doesn't matter, because not every person views and values Mickey in the same way.

>But it does matter to those that heard of him, and that's what counts.
It matters in those who place value in them, and nothing more. My argument isn't time is stonger, but that time is only as strong as we are, and thus so are those ideas. To say nothing about how ideas warp and mutate over time between person to person. Is the Mickey Mouse Walt and Ib Iwerks created the same Mickey Paul Ruddish made? Is the Superman Jerry Siegel wrote the same one Alan Moore did decades later?

>This an important distinction?
Yes. Not everyone is a war believes the same thing about that war, but are united on a side regardless because they either have enough geneal veiws to allign themselves with what they feel is right or simply what is most pragmatic for them. Napoleon's army may of all fought togther, and enough of them might've had enough views that allowed them to be a part of it, but it was not all the same. That denies each man his own indivuality and humanity. We aren't a hivemind

>I'm not seeing what your objection here is.
That fictional characters have no strength in our world, unless we give it to them.

>This is a laughable argument. May as well argue religions don't exist because in general most people don't have the exact same view of divinity
Do they? You're diving into to deep end friend, and I don't think this silly thread that has two Disney characters on the front OP is the right place for it.

>And that's a lot of people, anon.
Is it? Again it's based on what each person thinks and views them, they are not all the same unless you believe we as a people participate in homologous thought about a given subject.
>But said ideas can marshal the power from an aggregate of people that believe in them, meaning they can be stronger than any single individual even if said group doesn't individually hold the same vision of said idea in their head.
Again, maybe for the idea of the idea, but not the singular idea in of itself, that is based soley on the person and their views.

>I mean, both Mickey and Superman are still extant, right? Pretty much, in the big picture?
Except they aren't. Regardless of how they may look, or how similiar their actions are. They aren't same, they will never be the same. Because they are characters made by different men, seperated by years of history and cultural shifts

Walt's Mickey, is not the same as Ruddish's Mickey. You think they are because of that idea of the idea, but they aren't the same.

>But any army can have members fighting for their own individual reasons, but still be in service of an idea.
But it isn't all the same idea. It be a "similiar" idea" but it isn't the same, because each man has his own version of that idea.

>Which can be a considerable amount, and more than most individual real people.
Except again, it based on the singular person, not the group, as the group does not all view the idae the same. They might think they do, but they don't.

>It's the most cogent response to your thought that an idea that is not absolutely homogeneous in the minds of those that hold it is not united.
Your talking about how ideas are the same between people. That gets messy when you start getting more philosophical and spiritual ideas.
But overall, they believe in the same big picture idea, right? They're on the same side? Which means in general the idea drives them, meaning it operates with their hands to advance itself?
See above. And again, ideas are no concrete, they are not static, they shift and change over time, reflective of the people who use them
This is actually a really good example

Can you honestly look me in the eye and tell me The Simpsons from 1989 are the "same" as they are now?

>If you want to argue the Ship of Theseus, go right ahead
Okay, you argue the ship is the same, but also that it's different. The real ship was made with the intent of going to war, while the replica was made with the intent of being displayed. Should that matter if it looks the same?
Also, are you same person you were 5 years ago? 10 years ago? 20 years ago? You're still physically the same, do you still believe in what you did? Are your tastes the same? And for that matter is the world you knew the same as it is now? I think we are at a philosophical impasse either way, and we're likely not going to move each other any time soon

That's fine. I enjoyed it, I don't usually come to these threads but I liked being able to talk about these things and engage in a real discussion that wasn't just "hurr strong man punch harder than other strong man"

Thanks for that.

Except I'm not. Your putting an absurd amount of faith in strength of the "ideas" of the strength of a fictional character.

lol that text was so big I had to go mobile just to fit it in. Also no shade to you, Essex anon, I just saw the glue bit while looking at Chibi Essex and it made me lol

alt for whatever you think better encapsulates writing/character creation

Perfect. Thank you TN anon, this is gold.

Yes it does. Because we have vaccines, which are fueled by our immune system.

I don't understand the autism of some of those folks. Ideas are powerful. Why can't they accept that some fictional characters that "don't exist" are more powerful than they who do "exist" are? That what is not "real" can impact the real world and them more than they can impact it? Look at societal laws, for instance. They aren't "real" but to change them requires immense effort and time and cooperation. If you went up against the idea of Mickey Mouse, aside from the immense difficulty of changing the perception of an icon the world over his lawyers would probably kick your ass. Most people are probably not stronger than the "fictional" Mickey Mouse.

Fred Flintstone successfully increasing Winston cigarettes sales is not the same thing as wizards doing wizard shit, dummy.

One of those things literally happened. One didn't. How are they the same?

Alright, if you want something more concrete and less whimsical, lets take the idea of nations. Technically, nations aren't "real". There's no magical bubble demarcating their territories and borders, no specific immutable marker indicating who belongs where, and are often held together by sometimes coerced agreement and social cohesion and the social contract. But if you as a single person declared war on the concept of the USA and started openly killing its citizens, the agents and arms of something that technically isn't "real" would strike you down fairly easily. In that instance, was something that was "fictional" immutably weaker than someone that was "real"?

And by what framework did you receive repercussions from? A real, individual, physical mechanism? A giant statue meting out justice based on programming built into the laws of the universe? Or a body of work based in ideas and social cohesion held together by something that technically doesn't exist? And what's that "real group of people" united by? What's their common ground based in? Can you feel a patch of soil with no other information other than it is soil and its composition and tell it is "American" soil?
>That is fundementally different from a fictional character, who has zero presence in our world outside of what we give them
Is it? What value is a nation without members? Without land? Without anything to enforce its values and proclaim its name? To remember its stories? What worth is a nation except for what we give it?

But what drove those other people, anon? What told them what is wrong and how to respond? Was it a real physical giant proclaiming law from on high? Or was it the idea and intangible, "fictional" laws of the land they live on and believe themselves to belong to despite no real immutable physical barriers separating their nation from the next?
>Fundementally, our lives are determined by what we place our values in, and it affects us by alligining or deterring from the values of other people.
And are these values "real"? Can you actually touch them?

And you see what I'm getting at here, right? Those effects on the physical and real can outstrip what most individual physical and real people are capable of, and utilize other physical and real people. Something fictional can be stronger than something real, by pulling the strings of the latter. It doesn't matter if said fictional entity didn't physical impose itself on the real world. Through its ability to manipulate, it can accomplish things a "real" person cannot and as such can be stronger than any one individual.

Every universe perceives all other realities as fictional.

Thunderworld, for instance, has "Major Comics" which publishes Earth-8 stories.

There was a Gardner Fox on Earth-Prime who wrote for Earth-1 and Earth-2 as well as Gardner Foxes within Earth-1 and Earth-2 who wrote for the other Earth.

>No arguing in favor of SCP
Sureeee.

DC is too tough for you, SCPer. It was pulling narrative stacks back before color television.

There's a difference however. You know that scene with Superboy Prime breaking into the editor office?
That's the kind of narrative stack SCP runs on

There’s literally an SCP that is the actual authors. And there are dudes who are above that

That absolutely makes no sense.

You could probably photoshop Ghidorah mounting Alexstrasza or something to drive the point home.

Reread

Goku getting vague universal scaling in DBSuper was the equivalent of dropping a nuclear bomb on every vs community. It became a universal arms race to catch up.

. Nothing he said was wrong

[...]
There are more Dragon Ball downplayer than wankers. Capeshit, visual novel shit, games and tranime moeshit are wanked infinitely more.

If everything that isn't "GOKU BUSTS UNIVERSES BY FLEXING!" is your definition of downplay then no, there are no more downplayers than wankers by a long long long shot

You are taking what others said and going to extremes. Reread his post AGAIN and we'll see if you get it

That's not a platitude. And no, it's not extreme to say the designated power level darling getting a boost that made him universal was akin to dropping a hydrogen bomb on battle boards. I don't know why you're being so defensive about this specific thing to the point of calling him moronic when it's so obviously true. I question your tenure in this hobby because there's no way someone who was around back then would deny that BoG and GvSII irreparably damaged the vs sphere

Of course how could I forget all those universal Marvel and DC characters who appeared in BoGs

Now you're just babbling incoherently and singularizing two people into one. BoGs making Goku threaten the universe disrupted the battle boarding sphere and we're feeling the effects of it to this day. Stop being so defensive

It's a combination of downplay because the feats aren't there, but a lot of statements, mixed with wankers taking those statements out of context. Like arguing for multiversal Jiren and Goku, because Jiren used a big attack that his universe's angels said might crush us all, and Goku nullified it. But as we know both are in the ToP with an explicit no killing rule, and Jiren is the last man standing on his team, he isn't stupid enough to throw a massive attack that might kill one of the other u7 fighters, and get himself dqed. Was it a big attack? Sure, but definitely not something capable of destroying a multiverse.

Nothing in BoG made him Multiversal. There was never a time Beerus was throwing a multiversal attack he had to stop. At best, everything BoG was planetary, because that was Beerus's threat, to destroy the Earth. The anime version is where the fact he might be universal came from, with the shockwave from his clashes with Beerus, and that fight had far more actual meat to it. Again, it's context.

Take Spider-man for example. That is an early sort of handbook, putting him at 4th strongest in Marvel at the time. And he was routinely fighting muggers, and regular guys with some tricks. Why didn't he reduce them to salsa with every blow, (well besides the CCA)? He holds back. Beerus did the same, the only being we have seen actually erase a Universe is Zeno, and he did so effortlessly, his threat to wipe out 11 universe next makes him multiversal easily, because we can see it took him no effort to wipe out one, wiping 11 will take him just as little effort.

I took the Beerus and Champa thing as just being the nature of GoD Ki clashing intrinsic to the nature of their universe. Butting heads without some sort of precaution causes frickery to happen to their home universes regardless of going all out or not.

Also makes sense since GoD Ki seems to be bequeathed rather than learned and the title can be passed along (with the powers with it.

I took the Beerus and Champa thing as just being the nature of GoD Ki clashing intrinsic to the nature of their universe. Butting heads without some sort of precaution causes frickery to happen to their home universes regardless of going all out or not.

This is probably likelier than the more monkey brained explanation whereby Beerus would make a ki blast the size of the universe. GoD's are like forces of nature in a way that doesn't undermine the meaning of the term

Also makes sense since GoD Ki seems to be bequeathed rather than learned and the title can be passed along (with the powers with it.

An objective reading of Dragon Ball really does support the idea that all feats attributed to the GoD seems to stem from unique interactions with their ki. Beerus and the other GoDs being able to destroy universes seems to specific to them and their use of GoD ki, and not pure firepower unlike Zeno. Funnily enough, it technically means that the "universe level and above" tier of Dragon Ball is still only occupied by the GoD, angels, and Zeno and only the last one can do it casually.

Interesting [HEADCANON] there, however, you are forgetting one tiny detail. Jiren has surpassed his G.O.D.

>admits that he is spouting [HEADCANON]
SEE?

Jiren doesnt use god ki let alone destruction ki

He did establish them as different things yes

>Jiren is the last man standing on his team, he isn't stupid enough to throw a massive attack that might kill one of the other u7 fighters
Uh... Didn't he deliberately endanger the spectators at one point?

Here's the thing.

I and a bunch of other people warned what would happen if they were permissive with DBS and went full THEY CAN SNEEZE MORE UNIVERSES THAN EXIST IN THEIR MULTIVERSE AWAY, because it was all based on power level conjecture and shaking the universe. But they went ahead and did it, because they were ignorant, and thought they had a way to defeat DC when all it did was make things moronic because DC has far more easily swankable "universe shaking" scenes.

Pre and post Beerus vs Galaxia, Superman beats Goku and Thor beats Vegeta, the only thing that's changed is that the power levels for everyone are moronicly inflated.

And?

You think that's special or something for DC?

Earth Prime is just a single universe, and Cary Bates was able to exert meta god powers over Earth-2 because it was "fictional" to him.

Every single writer in DC has meta powers, because every universe is relatively fictional to all others. It's like what Stephen Kinggays imagine their multiverse to be.

VSBWankers try so, so hard to win the metawar. But the game was rigged from the start. DC won before they were logged on to the Internet to shit out their cringe creepypasta gods.

Oh wowie wow wow.
Not like DC didn't nuke Earth Prime during COIE.

>Bro le fiction is actually above le real life??????
have a nice day. I will never not ridicule SCPtards for reading and DEFENDING this sort of drivel.

Acting like a moronic homosexual to own a moronic homosexual just makes you look like an even bigger moronic homosexual. You lose by default since you're willingly acting like an ape to "overcome" someone.

Don't be an Brainlet Atheist, silly.
There are arguments for this type of literature (Religious texts, UFO encounters, Big Foot footage, ancient Biographies, etc) but SCP itself defeats this argument with joke SCPs.
Just research better

>Otto said Cary Bates beats up SCP # who-gives-a-frick
>I can't enjoy DC anymore!

No, I mean OUR earth. Like the one me and you exist on right now.
Is it incredibly, balls-to-the-walls moronic? Yes. Yes it is.
Is it a surefire way to win basically any powerwank competition? Yes, yes it is

>Our Earth
What do you think Earth Prime was?

Earth Prime isn't our earth. I'm talking the REAL world

Don’t forget that Captain Marvel Adventures in the late fourties had each universes made out of atoms which were themselves universes, and that’s only within Earth-S, with Captain Marvel Adventures having short stories saying there existed infinite universes like that one.

Do you?

The planet Earth was an atom, not the universe. It's still massive but if your universe is repeatedly and consistently stated to be infinite does it really matter?

it was said the rest of the planets and the stars were atoms themselves, not that a singular atom contained the entire universe

>Because DC's is legit
The bias on display here is flat-out comical.

>argue: to speak angrily to someone, telling that person that you disagree with them
i am asking why you are being argumentative for no reason

i am not defending shit. i am asking why you are arguing about stupid shit like that of all things. and why you are arguing with me over this. just tell me why. i'm getting tired of your argumentativeness

This is going nowhere. I'm just going to call you a homosexual and move on.

What kind of coin has bait and moronation on its sides?