Did Tolkien invent dwarves and elves?

Did Tolkien invent dwarves and elves?

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  1. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    That was Shakespeare

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      american education

      The modern idea of them, yes.

      so no he didnt

  2. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    The modern idea of them, yes.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Aka just humans with pointy ears and humans with beards? Lmao

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Elves in norse mythology were basically equal to gods, that's why they are immortal. Dwarves were crafty and greedy but very stubborn.

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Dwarves were also magical spirits like elves, but usually more antagonistic

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >Aka just humans with pointy ears and humans with beards
        Maybe that's how it comes across in the movies but Tolkien's elves in particular are a very distinct race to humans from everything to their physiology, lifestyle, culture, history, spirituality.... I could go on.

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Well multiple humans in the books grew up among elves and were mistaken for elves so obviously not. They’re just humans who Eru likes more than the other ones.

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >They’re just humans who Eru likes more than the other ones
            Dumbest take in the entire thread.
            There are entire volumes published which document how elves are a distinct race and culture, literally everything ranging from the connectivity between body/soul, women's roles, how/when they were created, where they live, what they eat, how they talk, what they do, how they have sex and what happened after they 'die' are different. Really the only main connection is that they can (seldom) have children together.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        That’s not it! Elves are a little bit taller and thinner, and Dwarves are a little bit shorter and squatter. It’s really deep and layered if you think about it.

  3. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    No scandinavians did

  4. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Yes but they didn't look like that

  5. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    You could have just went on Wikipedia and checked. He did not invent those races, and the article says people believed in Elves in the Middle Ages.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elf

    I suspect the myth was created because there were beautiful Europeans, who lived in nature, like the movie Midsommar, and the ugly people saw them as magical beings.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >Europeans
      >beautiful
      Kek good one

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        You're only kidding yourself, bucko.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        See Brown Seethe.
        Seethe, Brown! Seethe!

  6. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Traditionally elves were more like hobbits. They're small and do mischievous things, not much different from fairies or kobolds or trolls. Tolkien made them into tall, immortal, wise demi-beings.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Hobbits weren’t led by a king of the woodland who stole children and shot their parents with poison arrows for trying to find them.
      Raping women, kidnapping children, and firing arrows at travelers is not really mischievous it’s subhuman.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        ackshually they were superhuman for being supernatural

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        yeah, that's all code for israelites. changeling lore. israelites/gypsy-subset get so inbred they have to swap out the resultant groogs with healthy local babies.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        it was a different time back then

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Nah Tolkien stole that from Norse and Celtic myth where they’re mysterious holy nature spirits, but made way more generic and boring and dull

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      That would depend on your traditions. Elves are different in different parts of the world

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      If I remember correctly elves = gnomes was more of a Victorian thing and Tolkien hated that depiction so much he basically created the elves in his stories to correct it.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      It's generally thought he based them on the Tuatha De Danann from Celtic folklore.

      He later regretted calling them "Elves" because the name had already been used so much to refer to so many different supernatural creatures

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuatha_D%C3%A9_Danann

  7. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    i want more icsh boy elves onscreen

  8. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Adulthood is realising Tolkiein is a hack who stole everything from Norse myth

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Tolkien actually did his research on real mythology and almost every other fantasy author copied from him. If that makes him a hack then you're a hack for "copying" your parent's looks

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Lmao what research? He made three races of generic humans and copy pasted names from much more interesting and fantastical creatures onto them, in a world where the only mythology is that everything is a poor retelling on Paradise Lost

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          He literally invented a language, I don't know what makes you have this immense hatred towards Tolkien
          And no, elves and dwarves didn't exist in anything but name, they had different interpretations everywhere, there wasn't an official "lorebook" of mythical creatures everyone followed specifically. Elves meant something completely different depending on where or when.
          Everything you seem to take for granted in fantasy only exists because of Tolkien in the first place, there wasn't a definition of what "dwarfs" are, there were various depictions of small creatures named dwarfs, being described completely different, it's not like europeans in the middle ages had warcraft races in mind

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            They existed in all of European myth, get his tiny platoon-abandoning dick out your mouth. There were hundreds of myths and stories of dwarves, who were all fantastical and magic spirits who fought heroes and spread disease held up the sky.
            Tolkien stole that from other culture’s myth and changed the perception on them into some short humans who dig stone. He’s not only a hack, he’s a boring hack.

            • 2 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              to be fair one theory for where dwarf stories came from is that they were shorter people from south who dug stone

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            So did Star Trek, but nobody pretends like they're geniuses for giving Klingons some bullshit words to throw around.
            Invented languages are always woefully lacking in vocabulary.

            • 2 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              But the difference is they weren't bullshit words, they have their own grammar, sentence structure and extensive vocabulary. Not like with most alien stuff where they just make up a few bullshit words for a few lines for the movie

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >And no, elves and dwarves didn't exist in anything but name
            have a nice day Lotrmanchild

            • 2 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              Fricking moron, you don't understnad folklore, they weren't as clearly defined back then before tolkien as you think they were. We wouldn't even have this discussion without tolkien yet there's so much seethe about him for literally no reason

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Everything “defined” by Tolkien is something the actual myths created.
                Tolkien didn’t define anything, he’s a hack who took a popular and very widely written mythical creature and turned it into a dull lackluster human who digs in tunnels

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Cope

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Brownoids seethe. The actual myths did not create these stories and races.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Please read

                [...]
                >They weren't ethereally beautiful immortal beings of light
                They were, that’s how they get their names in Gylgayinning
                Celtic Elves were the same

                and stop consooming Tolkien’s badly written children’s story

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Elves in norse mythology weren't really well defined or even described physically. You could transcend into being an elf when you died and basically become a god. So yeah tolkiens elves are something he created based loosely on folk lore but it is his own creation.

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Disney made a fricking Snow White film about the seven dwarves before Tolkien. Holy shit you fricking moron

            • 2 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              The hobbit came out in the same year as the disney movie and he wrote about middle earth for two decades at that point. And again, those dwarves are nothing like the dwarves in tolkiens work

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Yes they are, the dwarves in the hobbit are just midgets who cut stone and hoard gold.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Bro Snow White and the Seven Dwarves was published in 1812.
                It’s just a clear example of how Tolkien didn’t invent shit that they were already making Disney movies about them by the time he started writing. Fairy Tales have always featured and described Dwarves since before 1200, Tolkien just took the stories THEY made and turned dwarves boring and generic and unmagical

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                But we already established that mythological dwarfs are nothing like tolkiens dwarfs?

                They have been part of European folklore a long time but he certainty humanized them,
                In folklore they almost always horrible monsters living in the forest

                Elves in norse mythology weren't really well defined or even described physically. You could transcend into being an elf when you died and basically become a god. So yeah tolkiens elves are something he created based loosely on folk lore but it is his own creation.

                It seems silly to mald about Tolkien here when he stands at the very beginning of the fantasy genre and much of modern storytelling, what does that make everyone else in the genre then? Isn't everyone making stories a hack then?

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                women dwarves in the rings of power series are not canon. it is known that women dwarves have beards.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Oh, so women dwarves are just like taylor swift and just "date around" so people don't realize they are carpet munchers?

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >But we already established that mythological dwarfs are nothing like tolkiens dwarfs?
                This is true. Myth Dwarves were holy, magical beings with incredible myths and involvement with creation who were also short craftsmen. Tolkien’s dwarves were just short craftsmen (stolen from Brothers Grimm who did this first)
                >when he stands at the very beginning of the fantasy genre
                He doesn’t, not by millenia. He is a follower of followers of followers.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                That's objectively false. You can clearly see a ton of inspiration in the entire fantasy genre on tolkiens work, you're being wilfully ignorant.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Willfully ignorant of what? Being a later inspiration for some sources does not undo the reality that all his creatures and all his stories he stole from preexisting myths that existed for thousands of years. If fantasg were a timeline, Tolkien is some guy at the most modern 1% who repeated a halfassed kiddy version of shit the first 50% created.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                I can already tell the only thing you know about “the entire fantasy genre” is DnD and low-effort Isekaii anime

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            You're talking to a nordicist.

            • 2 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              Which is ironic considering how much Tolkien loved Germanic culture. That's the reason he made those stories in the first place

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            He made several languages including two Elvish languages. Cindarin and Quindi iirc.

            But yeah they are soooo boring and superficial that we are still talking about them 3, 4 generations later.... lmao

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          He read, studied and taught all the old texts concerning European mythology, what do you think he did for a living?

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >Why, no - I haven't read Tolkien OR Paradise Lost!
          >... How could you tell?

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Like the ring of the nibelungen?

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Smaug is basically a reskin of Fafnir so yeah

  9. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    No, but he standardized this version of them.
    Elves originate from norse mythology and old germanic folklore about fey creatures.

  10. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    [...]

    >They weren't ethereally beautiful immortal beings of light
    They were, that’s how they get their names in Gylgayinning
    Celtic Elves were the same

  11. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    in swedish "älva" translates to something like faerie, and the alfr of pagan nordic mythology were pretty much like faeries. Tolkien took capricious, dangerous spirit-folk and turned them into basically a civilization of half-angels.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Good thing that tolkien's elves aren't based on swedish ones, apart from them being homosexuals like swedes

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        they're definitely based on nordic elves + you are brown. but the point is that tolkien made elves into a tangible civilization, whereas they used to be hidden beings, not quite wild but certainly not like humans.

        • 2 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          >fancy glowing humans descended from god who live in a magic promised land across the western sea
          Nah they’re Aos Si ripoffs

          • 2 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            They were not descended from any god, dumbass.

            • 2 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              Yes they were, moron. They were created by Eru and named “The Firstborn” because he considered them his children after birthing them

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Created is not descended, imbecile. Chairs are not descendants of carpenters, you ignorant canker sore on a pig's butt.

              • 2 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Eru considered all sentient beings his children - even the Dwarves, though he didn't create them

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Älvor and Alver are two completely different entities ditt jälva kioskmongo

  12. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    any alternative Dwarf appreciators?

  13. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    They have been part of European folklore a long time but he certainty humanized them,
    In folklore they almost always horrible monsters living in the forest

  14. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    No, you are moron.

  15. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    In their current form? Yes

  16. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    No, but he contributed to the modern perception of them. I think the ultimate blame lies with D&D and how much they copied Tolkien without context.

  17. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Yes, he also totally invented trolls and goblins and eagles
    And his creation myth is totally his own too, John Milton copied from him

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Dragons too. Everything about Dragons, ever? All from the Hobbit. Nowhere else, Tolkien invented everything.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        He didn’t invent tax policy.

      • 2 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        He is a goddamn prodigy i burn incense for him everyday and watche the LOTR trilogy weekly just to write a 2000 page essay on all the details in them

  18. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Tolkien was in cahoots with big ring businesses. The Hobbit was just early t@vistock propaganda experiments to see if they could make people start buying small pieces of metal for engagement gifts and shit. Irreparable damage to western culture.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      u didnt take ur meds today did u

  19. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Pretty sure dwarves were invented by the Norse.
    No idea about elves.
    Orcs were 100% invented by Tolkien.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      elves are also northern mythology which is why african-looking dwarves and elves make no sense whatsoever
      basically there is some overlap between elves and dwarves. for example the dwarf alberich of legend contains elf (alb) in his name

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Orcs were invented in Beowulf. They were monstrous humanoids mentioned offhandedly to be descendents of Cain

  20. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Tolkien is indisputably the father of modern fantasy and everybody else is, at best, walking in his very large shadow.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Hero worship is bad enough, but hero worship for some overrated autist that just pillaged mythologies for some christcuck allegory? Meds.

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      fantasy as a literature genre sucks because there's literally only one good fantasy author and he's dead
      meanwhile there's hundreds of science fiction classics that all hold up on their own

  21. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Dwarves are probably some modification of gnomes. There are plenty of folk tales about small people

  22. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    >people shitting on Tolkien
    Brownies detected

    • 2 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      My only criticism of Tolkien is that the Scourging of The Shire is objectively fricking stupid.

  23. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    The modern popular fantasy concept of them yes, the original mythical counterparts that existed in European folk tales and myths, obviously no.

  24. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Modern version of Elves and Dwarves? Yes.
    But not the concept of Elves and Dwarves as a whole who originally fell under the large mess of European fae-folk and spirits.
    But a lot of Tolkien's inspiration for what became his version of Elves and other things such as Orcs also stemmed from some coked up Anglo-Saxon poet who made Beowulf.

  25. 2 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    What did Aragorn do with all the satyrs?
    He certainly did not have tea parties with them.

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