He betrayed Batman out of pure selfishness and stupidity after Batman gave him everything, and is also a small-brained hypocrite who wants to corrupt purehearted heroes like Bruce into becoming murderers like him (but only kill the killers I want Bruce, don’t kill me even though I’m a murderer too!)
Comic morality is ironically stricter than IRL morality because you need to kill a small village before the capes even consider doing more than just locking you up.
Honestly I’d also be pretty mindbroken if my dad would rather kill me to protect the mass murderer that brutally murdered me as a child than let me kill said mass murderer. He might be irredeemable but not because he wouldn’t deserve redemption.
>Do all villains deserve redemption?
All Villians deserve a chance to try to to right the wrongs of their past or at least be a better person then they were before. But that does not mean they automatically deserve forgiveness for what they did
Only if it sticks. A villain who keeps flip-flopping between good and evil is just a time bomb to everyone around them, and Marvel has blue-balled us so many times by making its villains relapse.
the avengers tend to have the ability to rehab characters, but tony is a habitual line stepper. tony and hank should have opposite reputations especially since tonys done worse
he hasn't. >but muh civil war, but muh goliath
if you attack people, expect them to attack you back to defend themselves. Especially if you're attacking the government. If you get hit too hard and die in doing so, you shouldn't have picked a fight to begin with thinking you won't ever get an injury. Noone ever punched a cop then got surprised when they get arrested.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
this is the same dude that betrayed the avengers for kang. hes does far more malicious shit yet has the stones to want to finger wag
Than fricking Ultron? No.
That's not even to count hank's other shit like threatening to murder all the avengers over his tiny-dick complex, or actually building a different robot SPECIFICALLY to murder all the avengers so he could look cool when he beats it.
he turned san francisco into even more of a shithole extremis, and even though he was inverted, the tony miond scan they used to try to beat him(non inverted) was just as much of an butthole.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
First of all, he never "betrayed" anyone, he was literally brainwashed by Kang.
Secondly, like even you admit, he was inverted, aka turned evil. That's literally an evil tony they're fighting. Need we bring up every evil variant of Hulk or Thor into this like Maestro? You seething at the mindscan for no reason doesn't change the fact the mindscan was good and did nothing wrong, and helped defeat the evil tony.
Unlike regular Hank, who HAS betrayed the avengers multiple times, HAS tried to murder innocents, HAS killed trillions through his narcissism with Ultron, and HAS beaten his wife because he's insecure that noone thinks he's cool.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>who HAS betrayed the avengers multiple times, >HAS tried to murder innocents,
HAS killed trillions through his narcissism with Ultron,
and HAS beaten his wife because he's insecure that noone thinks he's cool.
so youll give inverted tony a pass, but chizo hank is responsible for everything he does
and hes betrayed a lot of people., shit that was the point of civil war
and ill give you ultron, but im gonna need sources on the others
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
I give tony a pass for something he does when magically turned evil by magic, in the same event when every other hero was also turned evil. And the point of civil war was preventing future disasters from happening by unregulated supers, not betraying anyone, expecting people to follow the law or petition the law. Not Tony's fault if half of heroes instantly go attacking people over it instead of petitioning against the bill, and yes only HALF, because the other HALF of all heroes were on his side too.
I don't give regular unbrainwashed hank a pass for betraying people when he's not brainwashed, and when he just betrays and kills out of arrogance, narcissism and vanity while crying about how he invented artificial intelliogence and pym particles like a crying adult baby mad because noone sucks his dick, no.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>I don't give regular unbrainwashed hank a pass for betraying people when he's not brainwashed, and when he just betrays and kills out of arrogance, narcissism and vanity
such as?
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
such as creating Ultron, trying to kill all the avengers with a robot for kicking him off the team, and threatening to murder the avengers because "waaaahhhh I created le heckin pym particles and you made weapons but you don't treat me like i'm the smartest"
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
outside of the redundancies, thats still schizoid hank. when has he done that in his right mind?
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
what the frick are you talking about "schizoid hank"? That's him as he regularly is. Same day he beat Jan he builds a robot to attack the avengers because he's insecure that they're better than him, not because he's brainwashed by anything. Same as when he threatens to murder the avengers, because he's insecure over his little dick and cries like a spoiled baby if everyone doesn't suck him off.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>That's him as he regularly is
no it isnt. he was masquerading as yellowjacket because he said hank pym was dead. all of hanks major sins were done after having a psychotic break
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
Marvel still stigmatizes Hank's mental illness.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
Do you think Micheal Douglas has any idea the scope of Hank Pym’s character?
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
I certainly doubt it since most of Pym's history is useless for making a likeable and popular movie character and Ultron already has a different origin.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>Not Tony's fault if half of heroes instantly go attacking people over it
The Pro-Registration side was the one who started attacking people. So, actually; it is his fault. And that's just talking about how Civil War began and not about the interdimensional uperhero Gulag Tony and Reed built.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
The police arrested people who broke the law. Noone forced the heroes to break the law. The only times the pro-registration heroes attacked anyone was when they were attacked first.
There are systems in place to propose new laws or challenge preexisting ones, that’s how Tony supported a bill to make superheroes register in the first place. Cap just jumped Immediately to terrorism then got pissy when the friend he used as a meatshield very predictably caught a bullet.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>The police arrested people who broke the law.
It was not the police, and the law was not yet in effect at that time. Throughout the war they also didn't follow any of the laws related to catching suspects, not the least included reading the suspects their rights, speaking of rights; they also held them without charging them despite them being citizens.
So not only did they not enforce they law, they also broke the 4th Amendment and some of the 5th amendments to the constitution in service of this bill that had yet to be signed.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
hank does plenty of fingerwagging at everyone, mostly while crying like a baby about how everyone is being "mean" to him by not sucking his dick. Turns out his victim complex is almost as big as his fans'.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
Than fricking Ultron? No.
That's not even to count hank's other shit like threatening to murder all the avengers over his tiny-dick complex, or actually building a different robot SPECIFICALLY to murder all the avengers so he could look cool when he beats it.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
Hankgays have a huge victim-complex, even though the comics constantly wank Hank and soapbox about how he's actually the smartest character in the world and also is a great person who shouldn't be judged for hitting janet, and how it's everyone else's fault for supposedly being mean to him off panel. It's like the more comfort you give them the whinier they get.
no, it’s canon
And there are other canon stories too such as her permanently blinding a little girl for some cash and murdering a little boy’s parents in front of him when he was the same age as bruce
Legitimately one of the greatest villains in fiction. His entire motivation is a single-minded hatred of Aquaman with several explanations behind it that have never stuck. He's really just hatred for the sake of hatred, almost a force of nature.
all of them have stuck, they just change when the reboots happened. Which happens with every villain that gets rebooted. He has never "hated for the sake of hated", that's a shit meme by homosexuals.
Legitimately one of the greatest villains in fiction. His entire motivation is a single-minded hatred of Aquaman with several explanations behind it that have never stuck. He's really just hatred for the sake of hatred, almost a force of nature.
So autistic not even curing autism could stop his hateism
In marvel? Yes because if every muttie could come back after some genocide , Sandman could
In DC? No, and people like Harley and Manta will always be mocked by fans because the company force to believe they could be a hero
>Brick wall body build >owner of several magical items >has a nursery rhyme theme
He would definetely be at least a B-tier villain. A Solomon Grundy team-up would be kino.
Some of them does, like the ones turning into anti-heroes (venom) or reformed people/sometimes heroes (sandman, btas Mr freeze, livewire).
But only some of them should be allowed to do so, people like joker, lex or norman shouldn't.
>sandman
The way they brainwashed him back into a villain, the way none of his new superhero friends tried to reach out and find out what happened... Man, he got done dirty.
Black Manta has killed far less people than Harley Quinn and she got to be "redeemed" so idr see why not in his case. Didn't he move on at point? Then he had a schizo breakdown and killed everyone at his seafood stand.
The key thing to redeeming villains is this
What the frick does the audience lose?
It's a win/lose situation
Is the character more fun, more interesting if they still evil?
Would them becoming a hero be too egregious?
What the audience have to gain?
Not all
Some villains CAN be redeemed but that doesn't mean they should
I can sort of understand of giving Manta more depth since he's just doing this for his son but he really works best if he's a petty butthole
A lot of the hero character run on the premise that everyone deserves a chance to be better, but when it comes to superheores and villains, their Origins catch up to them eventually no matter how much they change. In the end, all that really matters is if it's a good story,
All villains deserve a chance to seek redemption. Not all villains will take that chance, and the ones that do not can be cut down without mercy or guilt. A villain that comes to understand how badly they have fricked up can at least try to atone, but a villain that genuinely refuses to stop does not deserve mercy and offering it to them a second time only risks more innocents.
Serious answer, some do, some don't. It's not something I get too bent out of shape about, especially in comics, where shit changes all the time. And if a villain I like doesn't get a redemption, but I want to read one, that's what fan fic is for.
some can and some can. The average villain mook is just trying to make money, often in the most stupid ways possible, or seeking vengeance for being wronged or has slight mental problems. You can build a narrative around those types rehabbing. You can't when they are completely unrepentant or get off on killing puppies and babies or something
Both Hank and Tony are Piece of shit but Tony is still allowed to fail.
Also Peter hit a pregnant MJ and Tony Stark ignored Happy being a potential wifebeater that wanted to kill him (because he gave Pepper a job ) after he stop being a c**t openly
It’s what Jesus would want.
Matthew 15:24
If they're black, yes
but redeemed Black Manta isn't Black Manta he's Devil Ray
Some of them are irredeemable and could never be taught to be good. Like Jason Todd.
>Like Jason Todd.
What makes him irredeemable?
He betrayed Batman out of pure selfishness and stupidity after Batman gave him everything, and is also a small-brained hypocrite who wants to corrupt purehearted heroes like Bruce into becoming murderers like him (but only kill the killers I want Bruce, don’t kill me even though I’m a murderer too!)
Autism.
Another manchild who thinks comic book morality works in real life.
Comic morality is ironically stricter than IRL morality because you need to kill a small village before the capes even consider doing more than just locking you up.
did todd killed an innocent bystander or something?
Worse, he tried to force an innocent man (Bruce, his own father) to become a murderer just because jason is butthurt
He killed the best employer in Gotham city frick Jason Todd.
Depends on the villain.
If anything, Batman is the one who needs redemption for enabling the Joker and turning a blind eye to the atrocities committed by the Al Ghuls.
Honestly I’d also be pretty mindbroken if my dad would rather kill me to protect the mass murderer that brutally murdered me as a child than let me kill said mass murderer. He might be irredeemable but not because he wouldn’t deserve redemption.
>Do all villains deserve redemption?
All Villians deserve a chance to try to to right the wrongs of their past or at least be a better person then they were before. But that does not mean they automatically deserve forgiveness for what they did
Only if it sticks. A villain who keeps flip-flopping between good and evil is just a time bomb to everyone around them, and Marvel has blue-balled us so many times by making its villains relapse.
This guy? The guy who murdered an entire store full of people the instant Aquaman came back?
That Guy?
Harley Quinn murdered 30 gradeschool kids to feel like an empowered independent woman and they let her on the justice league
Gets invited to the Wayne Family Thanksgiving Dinner too and you know Alfred cooks a mean bird.
many such cases
the avengers tend to have the ability to rehab characters, but tony is a habitual line stepper. tony and hank should have opposite reputations especially since tonys done worse
hank created ultron
and still tonys done more villainous shit
he hasn't.
>but muh civil war, but muh goliath
if you attack people, expect them to attack you back to defend themselves. Especially if you're attacking the government. If you get hit too hard and die in doing so, you shouldn't have picked a fight to begin with thinking you won't ever get an injury. Noone ever punched a cop then got surprised when they get arrested.
this is the same dude that betrayed the avengers for kang. hes does far more malicious shit yet has the stones to want to finger wag
he turned san francisco into even more of a shithole extremis, and even though he was inverted, the tony miond scan they used to try to beat him(non inverted) was just as much of an butthole.
First of all, he never "betrayed" anyone, he was literally brainwashed by Kang.
Secondly, like even you admit, he was inverted, aka turned evil. That's literally an evil tony they're fighting. Need we bring up every evil variant of Hulk or Thor into this like Maestro? You seething at the mindscan for no reason doesn't change the fact the mindscan was good and did nothing wrong, and helped defeat the evil tony.
Unlike regular Hank, who HAS betrayed the avengers multiple times, HAS tried to murder innocents, HAS killed trillions through his narcissism with Ultron, and HAS beaten his wife because he's insecure that noone thinks he's cool.
>who HAS betrayed the avengers multiple times,
>HAS tried to murder innocents,
HAS killed trillions through his narcissism with Ultron,
and HAS beaten his wife because he's insecure that noone thinks he's cool.
so youll give inverted tony a pass, but chizo hank is responsible for everything he does
and hes betrayed a lot of people., shit that was the point of civil war
and ill give you ultron, but im gonna need sources on the others
I give tony a pass for something he does when magically turned evil by magic, in the same event when every other hero was also turned evil. And the point of civil war was preventing future disasters from happening by unregulated supers, not betraying anyone, expecting people to follow the law or petition the law. Not Tony's fault if half of heroes instantly go attacking people over it instead of petitioning against the bill, and yes only HALF, because the other HALF of all heroes were on his side too.
I don't give regular unbrainwashed hank a pass for betraying people when he's not brainwashed, and when he just betrays and kills out of arrogance, narcissism and vanity while crying about how he invented artificial intelliogence and pym particles like a crying adult baby mad because noone sucks his dick, no.
>I don't give regular unbrainwashed hank a pass for betraying people when he's not brainwashed, and when he just betrays and kills out of arrogance, narcissism and vanity
such as?
such as creating Ultron, trying to kill all the avengers with a robot for kicking him off the team, and threatening to murder the avengers because "waaaahhhh I created le heckin pym particles and you made weapons but you don't treat me like i'm the smartest"
outside of the redundancies, thats still schizoid hank. when has he done that in his right mind?
what the frick are you talking about "schizoid hank"? That's him as he regularly is. Same day he beat Jan he builds a robot to attack the avengers because he's insecure that they're better than him, not because he's brainwashed by anything. Same as when he threatens to murder the avengers, because he's insecure over his little dick and cries like a spoiled baby if everyone doesn't suck him off.
>That's him as he regularly is
no it isnt. he was masquerading as yellowjacket because he said hank pym was dead. all of hanks major sins were done after having a psychotic break
Marvel still stigmatizes Hank's mental illness.
Do you think Micheal Douglas has any idea the scope of Hank Pym’s character?
I certainly doubt it since most of Pym's history is useless for making a likeable and popular movie character and Ultron already has a different origin.
>Not Tony's fault if half of heroes instantly go attacking people over it
The Pro-Registration side was the one who started attacking people. So, actually; it is his fault. And that's just talking about how Civil War began and not about the interdimensional uperhero Gulag Tony and Reed built.
The police arrested people who broke the law. Noone forced the heroes to break the law. The only times the pro-registration heroes attacked anyone was when they were attacked first.
There are systems in place to propose new laws or challenge preexisting ones, that’s how Tony supported a bill to make superheroes register in the first place. Cap just jumped Immediately to terrorism then got pissy when the friend he used as a meatshield very predictably caught a bullet.
>The police arrested people who broke the law.
It was not the police, and the law was not yet in effect at that time. Throughout the war they also didn't follow any of the laws related to catching suspects, not the least included reading the suspects their rights, speaking of rights; they also held them without charging them despite them being citizens.
So not only did they not enforce they law, they also broke the 4th Amendment and some of the 5th amendments to the constitution in service of this bill that had yet to be signed.
hank does plenty of fingerwagging at everyone, mostly while crying like a baby about how everyone is being "mean" to him by not sucking his dick. Turns out his victim complex is almost as big as his fans'.
Than fricking Ultron? No.
That's not even to count hank's other shit like threatening to murder all the avengers over his tiny-dick complex, or actually building a different robot SPECIFICALLY to murder all the avengers so he could look cool when he beats it.
Hankgays have a huge victim-complex, even though the comics constantly wank Hank and soapbox about how he's actually the smartest character in the world and also is a great person who shouldn't be judged for hitting janet, and how it's everyone else's fault for supposedly being mean to him off panel. It's like the more comfort you give them the whinier they get.
I hate Quinn so much it's unreal
non-canon
no, it’s canon
And there are other canon stories too such as her permanently blinding a little girl for some cash and murdering a little boy’s parents in front of him when he was the same age as bruce
Yeah, this guy.
I don't give a shit about aquaman, but black manta sounds like a hoot.
Legitimately one of the greatest villains in fiction. His entire motivation is a single-minded hatred of Aquaman with several explanations behind it that have never stuck. He's really just hatred for the sake of hatred, almost a force of nature.
all of them have stuck, they just change when the reboots happened. Which happens with every villain that gets rebooted. He has never "hated for the sake of hated", that's a shit meme by homosexuals.
How did Manta survive killing Arthur's kid? No one in the JL need ever know what happens at the bottom of the ocean.
He didn't just kill Aquaman's kid, he ruined his friendship with Aqualad, drove Mera insane from the loss, and then he blew up the grave.
Black Manta literally only wants one thing and it's fricking fantastic
So autistic not even curing autism could stop his hateism
Man, I need to read more old comics, I idn't realise they could be this funny.
Read JLI
In marvel? Yes because if every muttie could come back after some genocide , Sandman could
In DC? No, and people like Harley and Manta will always be mocked by fans because the company force to believe they could be a hero
Another word, and I'm shooting your post.
this flabby homosexual would just be a regular crook in the big two
Nah, he'd be Kingpin level
>Brick wall body build
>owner of several magical items
>has a nursery rhyme theme
He would definetely be at least a B-tier villain. A Solomon Grundy team-up would be kino.
You're a homosexual with no imagination, a street level magic smuggler has so much potential and your moron brain cannot see it.
Some of them does, like the ones turning into anti-heroes (venom) or reformed people/sometimes heroes (sandman, btas Mr freeze, livewire).
But only some of them should be allowed to do so, people like joker, lex or norman shouldn't.
>norman shouldn't
I hate Spencer so much for ruining 2 villains in one shitty story arc
>sandman
The way they brainwashed him back into a villain, the way none of his new superhero friends tried to reach out and find out what happened... Man, he got done dirty.
Are we talking about Mera? This about that time she went crazy, faked her death, and tried to kill Arthur at her funeral?
No.
Black Manta has killed far less people than Harley Quinn and she got to be "redeemed" so idr see why not in his case. Didn't he move on at point? Then he had a schizo breakdown and killed everyone at his seafood stand.
he "moved on" because Aquaman died, then un-moved on when Aquaman came back to life
Sauce of this comic?
I don't remember but they're being nice to him because of jackson
The key thing to redeeming villains is this
What the frick does the audience lose?
It's a win/lose situation
Is the character more fun, more interesting if they still evil?
Would them becoming a hero be too egregious?
What the audience have to gain?
Aquamen
Great reaction image.
That’s right little girl! Your little brother is dead dead dead! All thanks to black manta here!
Moms kill their own babies all the time now, so it’s not a big deal anymore
>deserve
They aren't real. All that matters is if the storytelling is any good.
Not all
Some villains CAN be redeemed but that doesn't mean they should
I can sort of understand of giving Manta more depth since he's just doing this for his son but he really works best if he's a petty butthole
Sometimes it works, when a villain has a set of rules or moral grounds, it's easy to nudge them closer to Anti-Hero.
A lot of the hero character run on the premise that everyone deserves a chance to be better, but when it comes to superheores and villains, their Origins catch up to them eventually no matter how much they change. In the end, all that really matters is if it's a good story,
He's going to diddle that kid, mark my words
All villains deserve a chance to seek redemption. Not all villains will take that chance, and the ones that do not can be cut down without mercy or guilt. A villain that comes to understand how badly they have fricked up can at least try to atone, but a villain that genuinely refuses to stop does not deserve mercy and offering it to them a second time only risks more innocents.
Only the ones I like.
Serious answer, some do, some don't. It's not something I get too bent out of shape about, especially in comics, where shit changes all the time. And if a villain I like doesn't get a redemption, but I want to read one, that's what fan fic is for.
Not Reed Richards, he deserves to be executed for his crimes.
some can and some can. The average villain mook is just trying to make money, often in the most stupid ways possible, or seeking vengeance for being wronged or has slight mental problems. You can build a narrative around those types rehabbing. You can't when they are completely unrepentant or get off on killing puppies and babies or something
Both Hank and Tony are Piece of shit but Tony is still allowed to fail.
Also Peter hit a pregnant MJ and Tony Stark ignored Happy being a potential wifebeater that wanted to kill him (because he gave Pepper a job ) after he stop being a c**t openly
No
no
nothing is stupider than trying to face-turn horrific murderers
they do that with sabertooth every 10 years or so and its always fricking moronic
It depends on the character.
Like Doctor Sivana for example.