Does Laplace's Box retroactively support Zeon's claims of independence? Does this show that Zeon was actually on the right side of history? How do you feel about the true Charter?
Does Laplace's Box retroactively support Zeon's claims of independence?
It proves the existing federation was an illegitimate government.
No
No
It's a historical footnote.
>Zeon was actually on the right side of history
Was this ever in doubt?
I hate Laplace Box because it's such a stupid thing to add to UC that doesn't change anything. The Charter having a newtype law is so fricking stupid, no one would ever make a law about a hypothetical psychic space person and the rights they would have
Every war they started they lost, but can't handle it and keep crying over it.
Completely unrelated but seeing the two together in this meme i just realized that char's slicked back hair and wearing the high zeon collar makes him start to resemble gihren, noted warmonger by the time of CCA
You'd think he'd look like his father, but his father wore loose hair and a beard, and was a philosopher, not a war addicted moron.
I doubt it's intentional but it would track as showing that he's become moronic
You don't understand. Colony dropping IS the ideology of Zeon. Zeon has been tried four times and worked perfectly each time.
>Zeon's ideology is laying the biggest, fattest possible deuce on Earth
Sure, why not. Works for them Cima fans.
>>Zeon's ideology is laying the biggest, fattest possible deuce on Earth
>Sure, why not. Works for them Cima fans.
is there a picture of cima nude, bent over earth and squeezing out a big colony from her anus?
I feel like that should exist, despite it being unpleasing to the eyes
I mean... Is it possible for independence claims to even be wrong? Like, Zeon's methodology was obviously wrong. But looking past that, I can't think of a single situation where independent governance is morally wrong. If the government is a social contract, then it should be possible for an individual or group of individuals to break said contract or to make a new one. At least theoretically.
In reality, things made under a social contract, like bridges or buildings, etc. are physical objects that can't be retained by the previous contract in the event of a new formation. Or rather, only one formation can maintain a piece of land at a time, and obviously the old formation is not going to want to let go of their investment.
Essentially I'd say Laplace's Box isn't necessary to support Zeon's claims of independence. Its like the sprinkles on the frosting of the cake of claims. Very vestigial.
No. The Principality was no counter-revolutionary group, they weren't fighting to unfrick a Federation that turned out to have been hijacked from within. The Principality is completely unconcerned with the Box's existence suggesting an illegitimate government, because the Principality saw the Federation and anyone who sided with it to be, no matter what form it takes or what policy it follows, an eternal enemy to crush under the anthem of Space for the Spacenoid, with varying amounts of pseudo-racial animus fueling their hatred depending on how much they subscribe to newtypism as master race doctrine.
You're thinking of Mafty.
If I didn't know any better, I would argue that the Zabis hijacking Zeon was a planned op to ruin the concept of spacenoid independence.
If their politics are anything like America or the EU, this is absolutely the case. Zabi is literally an ashkenazi surname common over a thousand years ago.
>If people adapted to space start existing then we will incorporate them into the earth federation government
>pro-Independence
?
The federation weren't upholding the charter that they didn't know about therefore Zeon was right to suceede from the Federation or something like that.
It's actually space affirmative action
It's Space Reconstruction and it was sabotaged by Space Jackson and his lackey, Booth in blackface.
Frick no. Because we learned nothing.
We still ended up with Zanscare.
We still ended up with Jupiter.
Zeon gassed a colony and destroyed Australia with fricking nothing to show for it.
>sage
Imagine if the original US constitution had a 13th ammendment in it that said if people with psychic powers were born we should immediately give priority to giving them respresentation in elected positions. Then the original was replaced by a copy that excluded it only to be discovered years later and Key West Florida used this line to justify why they tried to declare independance from the US in the past (this actually happened).
That's how moronic Laplace's box was.
It's more like if Reconstruction was sabotaged even more than it was, and then in current year the most unhinged splinter of what once may have been the original Black Panther party comes out and argues they are validated in forcibly making America a Communist Afro-ethnostate... when that splinter was always agitating to kill whitey and anyone they decided that minute was being an Uncle Tom. And that these true believers don't even seem to notice they're being led by some guy in blackface, who's being financed by Gopniks trying to revive the USSR.
That's not even the important part. The charter is just evidence that the government was hijacked by terrorists who were never elected into power and stole their positions and turned the world government's leadership into a dynasty. It'd be like if George Washington was assassinated on the first day and his nephew declared himself president after falsifying a new election and we were ruled by the descendants of the Washingtons. It's basically /misc/'s israeli conspiracy come to life.
The series even outright says this: the contents of the box aren't as important as the fact that it was hidden, covered up, and used as blackmail for 100 years.
Yes but in reality nobody would give a single fricking shit. IRL the unveiling of what is functionally a draft of a document would be treated as a fun historical footnote, not something that could overthrow an existing social order.
But here's the thing, do the federation leaders around today know what their great-grandfathers did 100 years ago, that it's all built on a lie to keep them in power? If so then they're just as culpable for keeping up the lie. If not then they're just the beneficiaries of something they personally had no part in and you're basically going into the reparations argument at that point.
At the very least the Marcenas family and the Vist family do. The latter, although they're not in the government apparently, took over Anaheim Electronics and Martha seemed to control Federation affairs since she and Ronan were planning the colony laser to stop the opening of the Laplace box. Also Ronan was the one who told Riddhe about the charter, the Laplace box, and how the Marcenas family got into power, and in a meeting of his peers Ronan, Riddhe's father, jokingly refers to the gathering as the shadow cabinet.
I don't think about it because Fukui can't write.
No. It doesn't mean or change anything at all. That's the whole point.
>Zeon: Hi this stone tablet from 100 years ago said we're supposed to govern ourselves via Newtypes and you're not allowed to be in charge any more.
>Feds: k
>Feds: Anyway we're couping another zeke colony and developing more Gundams because we can lol. u mad?
No. It only proves that the federation were always stupid. Imagine blowing up a space station to hide a plaque you could have switched out the night before the news conference without anyone noticing. Then imagine caring that someone claims to have it after the attack and giving them power over the government.
>he thinks they blew up the station to swap the plaque
>and not to, yknow, KILL RICARDO MARCENAS
A literal who prime minister who they could have killed at any time? Yes I know they planned the whole thing to ensure their control over the spacenoids or whatever bullshit Fukui used to force it to try and make sense. The plaque was still the most important thing there.
Congratulations, you might actually be the most moronic person on /m/ right now.
I mean, it's a heated competition because every time a Unicorn thread is made you all seem to do this bit where you intentionally misunderstand the entirety of the Laplace Incident because LuL zEoN wAnK, but this right here might be the peak of moronation. The Mount Fuji of stupidity.
>Writing a clause in your government charter about theoretical future superhumans at all
>You should care about this other version of the charter that the government hasn't been operating under for the last 95 years because???
I try to pretend Unicorn has no story and is just an amalgamation of random MS battles.
>Dropping and gassing colonies
>Right side pf history
Just because your claims are valid doesn't mean you're justified
Crap like Unicorn is why After War X should be required watching after finishing UC, even if it is an AU.
If you can't spare the time to watch it then I'll summarize the point it makes. 'Newtypes' do not exist. When humanity left the Earth and began to colonize space, they left behind the things that they believed in. With nothing left to believe in, people began to search for something new that would justify their existence in this new world. That is what the purpose of newtype theory was. But people were desperate to validate this new belief. As such, when people began to be born with unexplainable abilities they seized the opportunity to call them 'newtypes' in order to validate their beliefs. But these people weren't newtypes. Sure, these people who were called 'newtypes' and 'cyber-newtypes' were gifted with extraordinary, superhuman abilities. But that isn't what being a newtype meant. Real newtypes were only ever supposed to be humans who could understand one another without misconception. They are not a new race that can read every single thought another person has, or one that can control weapons and shoots them with their mind. They are humans.
As such Zeon's justification for independence may have coincidentally been in line with the last article of the original Federation charter, but that doesn't matter because of two reasons.
1. None of the members of the Zabi family truly believed in the idea of newtypes. They only saw that newtype theory was popular among spacenoids, and used it to justify their ambition.
2. Even if they did believe truly believe in newtype theory, it never validated their reason for independence because newtypes are not a new race of space people. They are just humans who can understand each other.
tl;dr, Laplace's Box does not retroactively support Zeon's claim of independence because the article has not been fulfilled, and never will be because 'newtypes' do not exist nor are actual newtypes a new race.
Unicorn already paraphrases that message when it explains how newtype is a loaded word no one agrees on a meaning to. It's practically word for word the point you're making here down to the conclusion.
Laplace's Box is the most useless Mcguffin I've ever seen. It doesn't mean anything at all. Article 15 is a fricking joke.
15
>>The Earth Federation shall prepare the following articles for the future of human race with high hopes and expectations.
>>1. In preparation for an extraterrestrial biological emergency, the Earth Federation shall increase and expand research and preparedness.
>>2. In the future, should the emergence of a new space-adapted human race be confirmed, the Earth Federation shall give priority to involving them in the administration of the government.
1 is pointless because yeah, if there's a biological emergency be it extraterrestrial or terrestrial the federation should research it and stop it. That's just common fricking sense. 2 is pointless what the frick makes someone space-adapted? Growing up in Zero G? Being used to it? Or being able to see the souls of the fricking dead? Also how many do you need for a race? It's so fricking stupid. There was no point to keeping Laplace's Box secret, it didn't have the power to destroy the Earth Federation as everyone said, only their own incompetence and corruption could.
You're missing the point!
The fact that the reveal of Article 15 is a nothingburger is the entire point of just how the fear of the unknown can be used to control people.
The Fear of What the Box MAY have been is what lead the Federation to be manipulated by the Vist Foundation. It's a mystery box that's power is lost the instant it's opened but the Federation was afraid it may have disrupted the status quo that it let them be blackmailed.
Once it was opened up and Mineva made the broadcast the power of the box's potential was destroyed and the entire Article 15 issue becomes something that's quickly left to historical scholars doing theses on and getting an article on their version of Wikipedia, it becomes nothing but trivia.
The Federation's legitimacy isn't undermined, Zeon's madness isn't given justification as Gihren was willing to hijack anything to use for his own means of gaining power
t. Feddie
Here's the thing, does the current federation even KNOW what the plaque says? Because if they did, I don't think they'd care about it being revealed.
Only the Marcenas family does, hence why Riddhe admitted to it to the Nahel Argama crew that he betrayed.
Ok then yeah, that makes sense. For all they know it's like the most damning document in history saying a nuke needs to be dropped on Dakar RIGHT NOW
This, the modern Federation (so not the ones of 100 years ago) are basically victims themselves of the Marcenas family blackmailing them with something they know is a nothingburger.
The blackmailing wasn't done by Marcenas. It went like this after the Laplace bombing:
1. Syam Vist finds the constitution Ricardo prepared and goes into hiding with it knowing that because he's alive, those who hired him (George's faction within the nascent Earth Federation government) will kill him to ensure his eternal silence.
2. George and his cohorts unveil the Federation Constitution (no clause guaranteeing that space-adapted individuals are to be prioritized in having a role in the government). They're contacted by Syam; the latter warning that if the former don't pay him, he will go public with the bombing and the intended consitution. As a result, Syam gets his hush money.
3. The Vist family continue to blackmail the Federation government to advance their interests. Anaheim Electronics was founded in this time and the Carbine family would marry into the Vist family, allowing the former to bask in the privileges of what they can do with "Laplace's Box" as it became known.
You forgot 4:
Between the Newtype theories of Zeon Deikun and the Federation over the latter quarter of the century having presented itself as having something of an adversarial relationship with the psychic space voodoo wizards that most have come to taking to calling "newtypes," it doesn't take a lot to sow the seeds of a narrative:
>"The Federation's oppression of spacenoids is surely because they knew all along what mankind was destined for once it took its place amongst the stars! Look no further than to the avatars of their animosity the RX-0s, descendants of the White Devil itself and purposely built to exterminate newtypes on the battlefield! My friends, I implore you, fight for what's right! Sieg Zeon!"
I was more focused on why the original consitution was a big beal BEFORE Newtypes (which I believe aren't supposed to be the same as "space-adapted individuals").
>Anaheim Electronics was founded in this time and the Carbine family would marry into the Vist family, allowing the former to bask in the privileges of what they can do with "Laplace's Box" as it became known.
Didn't want to do whole "um ackshuallly" but Carbine didn't marry into the Vist family, it was the opposite.
They do, but it's a historical footnote for most people, because it isn't common knowledge that the dissident terrorists who blew up Laplace and seemingly represented some flavor of uppity spacenoid undeserving of such empowerment were in fact just patsies for an administration that really didn't give a rat's ass about what their constituents thought the moment they could be deported to space.
Scratching the article was less about the new type part and more the involvement part.
You know what would've completely saved the Federation's asses? If their new revised constitution was COMPLETELY different from the original one. Then it can be revealed and they'll be like, "wow what a neat historical footnote, those earthnoids back then sure had some forward thinking. Ok, let's put this in a museum somewhere."
But because it's 90% the same except the part that hints towards newtypes, people will naturally assume there was a conspiracy.
Hit submit too soon. Was going to say that if it was different, it would've been the equivalent of people first finding the Articles of Confederation today. Just this wierd little factoid about our early government.
Sorta, but keep in mind that the fact most people don't know the truth about Laplace is precisely why a timely falsehood could cause even greater harm.
Yknow like how people mistake the Bill of Rights now as some kind of positive affirmation of rights and clever forethought on the Founders' part and not an appeasement to some of the signing parties who, despite having seen the limitations of the Articles of Confederation in real time, still did not like the idea of a federal government with the power to form a standing army. Once the historical context is lost to the pages of a textbook, some populist can easily convince people of an entirely different and potentially dangerous new context.
>despite having seen the limitations of the Articles of Confederation in real time, still did not like the idea of a federal government with the power to form a standing army.
The Founding Fathers almost all lived to see the folly in that when the War of 1812 happened right after Jefferson had completely defunded the US military. The only difference is they didn't write down an amendment after saying "ok maybe we made a few mistakes..."
You don't even need a different constitution. You just need loud lawyers. Look at what's going on in the USA today: They claim things like the 4th and 14th Amendment guarantee a right to abortion. That was absolutely not what was intended, but that's what the loudest and richest voices are saying.
Now look at people like the governor of Palau, who could single-handedly support the Sleeve's fleet. They could twist that last article in all kinds of ways to justify demanding additional rights and powers be devolved from the Federation, or justifying rebellion if they didn't get their way.
>disease in space bad
>if people adapt to space you don’t get to dehumanize them even if their spindly 0G-adapted skeletons can’t withstand one measly gravity
Literally just affirmative action for Belters.
If you studied anything of modern constitutions, you'd know why it was included. Given that the constitution was written after a period of warfare and ecological devastation that led to space colonization, it makes sense they'd include at least a provision about space-adapted humans to try and mitigate the risk of genocide committed by future generations.
The clause doesn't make any kind of sense. A child born in space would grow up to become space adapted, there's no ifs about it. Theres no need for the clause for a forgone conclusion, the only reason for the clause would be if the space adapted humans were somehow radically different from regular humans. The speculative nature of it is what makes it insane.
>A child born in space would grow up to become space adapted, there's no ifs about it.
Why would they? The colonies were designed to simulate Earth-like conditions, not mutate the human race into Belters.
>Why would they? The colonies were designed to simulate Earth-like conditions, not mutate the human race into Belters.
Adaptation doesn't have to be a complete physical change like in the Expanse, it could be any number of things. The simple fact is that th earth like colonies are not the earth. Some changes would have to be expected as humans grow up in a closed environment like that. It'd be really silly to not take that into consideration.
>How do you feel about the true Charter?
Still moronic as frick
it's really moronic and changes nothing.
No buecause Unicorn is not canon
Why do you think about Fukui's fanfic at all?
Feddie cope all over the place. Moon Gundam will get an anime adaptation soon
The box is such a moronic idea.
This was extremely stupid, and blackpilled me on Gundam entirely. The franchise is marred by this "war is pointless" narrative that is extremely post-cucked Japanese.
muh bael
It doesn't exactly support it, but it's more like the cover-up directly undermines the legitimacy of the EFSF.
No because it says something entirely different. Laplace Box basically just says "hey uh, if by any chance being exposed to space radiation creates a race of psychics, put some of them in parliament". The rest of the charter, if you actually read it, says that Earth is still the central government of humanity and we should all be one big happy family.
Nothing in it follows Deikun's belief that everyone should get the frick off of earth, or that you just get to leave the federation if you feel like it.
Laplace's Box had to be a nothingburger because if it wasn't, then Fukui would be validating Zeon and he doesn't want that because Fukui sees Zeon as being in the wrong.
not canon so who cares
Also, by the time of Unicorn, have any space adapted humans (newtypes) tried to get into the government but been discriminated against? The Feds bent over backwards for Char in CCA.
>have any space adapted humans (newtypes) tried to get into the government but been discriminated against?
None have bothered to, purely on the basis of being a newtype or standing for newtypes. Blex would attend some Federation assemblies and try to work for Federation reform and to push pro-spacenoid agenda but nothing came of it other than his assassination.
>The Feds bent over backwards for Char in CCA
Not because he was a newtype or wanting to join the Federation administration. He gave the Feds an offer that was almost too good to be true ("we'll disarm completely and give you all our weapons as well as mountains of gold if you give us a space rock that is worthless to everyone else") which had them jumping for joy until it turned out to be a ruse.
>standing for newtypes
There's a good reason for this - newtypes aren't a race or social group. It'd be like MENSA trying to lobby for "genius" rights. They already have the exact same rights as everyone else, extra capabilities don't mean you should get an automatic bias from the government. Amuro was mostly acting before the concept of a newtype was even widely known and he was given nothing but priority from the government.
The "lost amendment" is stupid. It'd be like if there was a secret part of the Constitution that said "people with good hand eye coordination get to vote twice".
There's legit like less than 50 newtypes that you can name in UC so no, not really. Odds are most newtypes are weak ones like 0079-era Char who aren't even aware of it.
This feels like an /m/ Cinemaphile crossover which is something I couldn’t imagine….ok maybe except WW2 era material
how do they know the box is legitimate? What if its fake????
It came from a trustworthy source. The princess of a terrorist state.
It has signatures from the original founders of the Federation and the original was known to be lost.
What if they just added the newtype thing to the original?
The idea that there would only be one copy of a legally binding document is the most unbelievable thing in the entire story. It would have to be debated, drafted, redrafted, a final copy would have to be sent to get engraved. Realistically, everyone would already know what was in the Charter. The idea that it could get covered up makes no sense. This wasn't at a constitutional convention or in debate or something, but at a public ceremony.
For some moronic reason, mecha anime in general operates on the idea that no one has ever heard of photoshop, or that it just plain doesn't exist. Despite the fact that you know, doctoring photos has been a thing since before computers. Everything is 100% legitimate, you can never claim the other side is presenting fake evidence to frame you.
Nah even SEED Destiny had Durandal edit tv footage of Destroy getting blown up to make it look like it was the Impulse that did it instead of the Freedom
What I mean is, no one ever calls them out on it. The entire reason Lelouch's plan doesn't fall apart at the end of R2 is he doesn't say "that's some doctored bullshit" to everyone when Schneizel presents his evidence
>Lelouch's plan doesn't fall
the entire reason it DOES fall apart, I meant
Theres no one interpretation of what the box actually means.
If we take the extra passage on the charter literally it means that the UEF HAS to allow identified Newtypes into the decision making process.
If we take it with a bit of creative flair it means the current UEF knowingly altered its own charter to ensure its hegemony permanently, which means its not to be trusted by soacenoids seeking independence. Which is a pretty good Casus Beli. Imagine if someone found an older first draft of the Constitution that guarantees Texas full autonomy in perpetuity. The fallout would be a fricking fiasco.
>Imagine if someone found an older first draft of the Constitution that guarantees Texas full autonomy in perpetuity.
It wouldn't matter because that wasn't the one signed into law
It wouldn't matter when Fox news lies about it and says it was signed into law and it's the Demoncrats' fault
>Does this show that Zeon was actually on the right side of history
Nothing justifies Zron's terrorism. Nothing.
Sort of. Rise of the Red Comet suggests that the Colonies had very little voice in government with protests being suppressed with armored vehicles. Zeon's core beliefs are that spacenoids are evolving to survive life in space. The final clause in the charter would give Spacenoids a protected say in government.