Does Vecna being or controlling The Mindflayer ruin the lore? Don’t get me wrong I love Henry and this season, but isn’t him admitting to being the mindflayer ruin the 2-3 or is this some low key admissions from the Duffers that mistakes were made. Personally I think they should have kept Mindflayer separate
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Who cares? 2 and 3 were shit and the MF was a terrible villain
But it doesn’t make sense why Henrey would drop his serial killer MO and only start doing what he did to his own family after fricking up as Mindflayer twice.
Of course it doesn't make sense, its a retcon and the Duffers are making it up as they go along
This. Anyone else trying to to make any sense is coping. They just go "what was the crazy shit that happened last season, how can we explain the new threat" and put some vague reasoning for such big threat.
He tried to push through a few times, mainly to capture Eleven, but failed. Season 4 was his "Screw your optics I'm going in" move.
Also it's possible he was getting stronger every day and Season 1 he was very weak
He probably became active when eleven opened the first gate.
Beforehand he was content in the upside down. A world without humans like he wants.
This might have made him first realise that it was possible to open a gateway. And gave him the idea to spread into the real world and cleanse it. From there he started working on opening his own gateway to the world .
H
Vecna didn't control the Demo in S1.
>Vecna's whole plan in S2 and S3 is get to Hawkins through portals
>Vecna's whole plan in S4 is to make a big portal out of little portals
>Vecna was hive-minded with a Demogorgon in S1 that could just make portals whenever and wherever it wanted all the time and did nothing but eat people with it
absolute hack writing
>that could just make portals whenever and wherever it wanted
no it couldnt lol
Didn't it make them in fricking trees or something?
>start doing what he did to his own family after fricking up as Mindflayer
So you barely paid attention.
yes, mother fricker was terrible
Would be better if Vecna comes back but as his human self. I liked the guy who played him.
I definitely agree on that I think the monster looking dude alienates to much. The human makes it feel more personal and evil
Please explain how season 4 is any better. I'm dumbfounded by how much people like it. It's objectively shit and written terribly.
more comfy horror kino moments than 2 or 3
less obnoxious "Black person-child is sassy" and "joyce being on cocaine in the middle of filming" scenes, though sadly they didn't kill either character off
they should've completely cut the hopper/joice/israelite storyline, massive waste of time
I've got the last episode left but my ratings are 1>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>4>2>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>3
but how else would they have done the heckin' hivemind epic teamup that was a key plot component? nevermind that before you could literally dropkick a DemoDog and nobody else (monster-wise) would flinch
Hmm, the last episode's what pushed the whole 4th season just under the 2nd season for me.
I agree with you ranking otherwise, it's pretty much spot on.
It's comfy and entertaining and had more thought put into it than 2 or 3, which isn't saying much I know. Also Eddie was great.
it jumps around more, putting the viewer in a constant state of "god i hope this set of characters is doing something fun".
i think it's easier to forget what you disliked about a scene that way
Somewhat agree. I was saying before this season that it really needed something that wasn't Mindflayer again.
I welcome the change because the MF has been punked by the kids not once, but twice already. It being the "end game villain" doesn't appeal to me. That said, I am not sure if Vecna really "controls" it, for some reason I got the impression that it was calling out to Vecna since a child to eventually do it's bidding.
But then why does Henry drawing the spider form come BEFORE it takes spider form?
We see him drawing the mindflayer i. charcoal as a child
You could still argue the 2000's CGI cloud monster just took on that shape because of that but its still its own thing
Not sure what your point is. We see him drawing the mindflayer as a child. That would support the idea that it is in fact its own being and calling the shots
Are you saying the mindflayer influenced him as a child and he drew that picture because of the influence?
Why do you think he was drawing the mindflayer as child a decade before he ends up in the upside down?
No it wouldn't. It's a cloud until it interacts with Vecna. Why would it influence him to draw a shape it's never had?
Why would he be drawing it as a child?
Because of the black widows. I'd prefer it the other way round, but that's what we got.
He was specifically drawing the mindflayer in one scene.
Yes?
>yes?
I agree. It's ambiguous, but I think there's a chance they were going for the "evil entity has psychic communications with a child who then draws a representation of it with crayons" trope you see in horror movies.
So, it would be kind of like Vecna's plan to make portals into the Upside Down: make a strong psychic connection with a kid and then kill them, creating a portal into our world. Except in the original case with Henry it was probably something like the Mindflayer/Shadow didn't know about our world until a weird anomaly like a natural psychic like Henry was born. Then, the Mindflayer started picking him up on his psychic radar and began reaching out to him in it's prime directive to consume all things into it's hive mind. It was probably hoping it could kill him the way he killed all the teenagers and rip a portal into our world to create a gate and get through, but then Henry ended up being a psycho little shit and it didn't work, but that lead to the Mindflayer/Shadow seeing the potential to corrupt and influence him to use his powers to kill his family and try to vicariously create a gate that way. That didn't work, though, either because Henry wasn't strong/skilled enough to make it happen or because it wasn't possible to make a gate while operating through a proxy in our world. So, that lead to Henry killing his family, getting taken into custody by Brenner, and eventually the lab in Hawkins (it would make sense that they stayed in Hawkins because maybe they started to pick up their own readings of strange psychic activity eminating in Hawkins when the Mindflayer kept attempting to reach out to Henry, either that or they assumed there was some environmental component that caused his pyschic mutation.) The Mindflayer kept reaching out to Henry over the years, making him evil and uncooperative, so they eventually had to chip him with Sotoria to handicap him, and the other kids weren't strong/sensitive enough to pick up his signals until 11.
jesus christ anon, take a break.
I'm a different Anon
That's reddit spacing and also the character limit put me under constraints
Also, Henry might not realize/think he's being taken advantage of after years of exposure to the Mindflayer and also having his weird philosophical beliefs about human nature and the superiority of non-sapient creatures
>That's reddit spacing
No it's not you stupid fricking newbie. Paragraph spacing is normal writing etiquette on literally every single forum. What
did by putting a break between the quote number and the post content is reddit spacing
Wah wah wah crybaby
Black person.
that shit's okay when you're writing as much as you are
It would've been four posts if I spaced it out
Post your face so I know you're not 17
>That's reddit spacing
Frick off, newbie.
paragraph breaks you Black person
So then, the Mindflayer starts influencing Henry to manipulate Eleven because it figured he can either train her to be strong enough so that the Mindflayer can use her to do it's bidding instead, or that they can possibly work together to open a gate, or maybe it just knew Eleven was stronger than Henry and could rip a gate herself if he pushed her far enough, so that's when he singles her out and starts doing all that shit from the flashbacks. And it works, Eleven gets stronger and then eventually gets into a fight with Henry and rips open a gate, only or didn't work quite as planned because the Mindflayer hasn't ripped a gate before and didn't realize it would seal back up. So then it starts brooding and plan its next move until Henry stumbles upon it and it realizes it can infect him and boost his power itself.
Then, while it starts planning its next move the government starts fricking around intentionally trying to open gates, causes season 1 and Will winds up in the Upside Down and it's able to infect him and send him back through to establish a beacon in our world to ping off of and start trying to infest people that way, but then Eleven shows back up and wrecks it's plans. But then part of the shadow is still in our world so if infects Billy and starts trying to build it's flesh minions to kill Eleven and absorb everyone into the hive mind that way. That doesn't work, so then it goes back to it's original plan it tried with Henry, but this time using Henry's powers to reach out to people from the Upside Down, create an emotional psychic death, and cause those mini gates so that it can make a super gate that's too big to close and then it can get through and finally infest the world.
But then the Russians unexpectedly interrupt it's plans and find a way to lock it in that box, so then Henry goes rogue and starts trying to run the show which is why it's nowhere to be seen this season until it gets into the Demogorgon at the end.
1 gives the mind flayer the means to open the gate into our dimension. And the mind flayer gives 1 access to more power that he needs to achieve his plans
Now this is 'tism
I was agreeing with you but then I couldn't read anymore
>show Henry touching a spider just before showing Henry touching the Mindflayer
God. They literally tell you that the entity is his own thing.
Earlier in the season, they referred to the demogorgons as the mindflayer's foot soldiers and Vecna as his general. I like that description better than them being on equal terms or Vecna being in charge
Vecna and the Mindflayer are the same entity. Whatever One encountered was not the Mindflayer until they merged
Wasn't it already in that world? He just moulded and manipulated it with his powers.
>being or controlling The Mindflayer
He assembled it from the particles but the two have separate consciousnesses, I think. I took it that the particles are indigenous to the Upside Down but they weren't a coherent hivemind until Henry coordinated them with his powers into a discrete personality
That makes sense.
I took it more as Vecna beckoning the Mindflayer by combining the particles and offering it the chance to weak havoc on the normal world.
Yeah this is how I took it too.
I think they meant to represent it as a symbiotic relationship. Imagine the mind flayer as pure chaos and Vecna as order, together they compliment each other and become whole with a singular purpose.
a mindflayer is an octopus-head looking alien and vecna was a lich
this is stupid
This. Stranger Things is taking names from DND but not implementing the monsters correctly. Shit is frustrating.
What should they have called him
Demogorgan
Isn't that what they called the dog flower heads?
might be a naive take, but I equated it to the fact that this homie was always lying. he lied about his origin story, he lied to eleven about the escape plan, he must have kept hands-free-jerking-off the doc to have a chip put in, no?
> okay One, we're going to run some tests today
> let's start by having you mov-
> One, please, stop i-
> Not agAINNN
> HNNNGGGG
> ...
>only after tearing the doctors wiener off did he get chipped.
Vecna is the mindflayer. He literally said he found the mindflayer and it let him transcend humanity. His body is just an avatar now.
Is Obito Madara then?
t. also fricking moronic
>missing the mind flayer laughing as Henry approaches in the last flashback
It's quite clearly still a semi deity of unknown power and origin. What is moronic is making vecna responsible for the entire upside down
You're trying to reason out plotpoints that were pulled from the collective arse of a Netflix writers room to continue a one-off miniseries into its redundant fourth season. If the writers didn't think about it, why should you?
>it doesn’t make sense
Now you're getting it.
>I love Henry and this season
>and this season
>I love this season
Opinion discarded, thread closed, board avoided for a few days until I become desperate for film recs again.
mindflayer is so disappointing and boring, they should just up the ante with some other ancient god entity with some actual charectaristics
>vecna is a manlet
Ruined
The actor is 6'1", so he's at least 5 inches taller than you.
Manlet cope
>The actor is 6'1"
Hahahahahahahahaha what a fricking midget. Imagine being under 6'3".
what if you tow eddies trailer while the gate is open in it
what if you excavate or demolish the structure that a gate is attached to and then throw the gate on a dumptruck and drive it somewhere else
I think it will be a portable gateway into a static version of Upside Down. Like, the Wheelers' house was stuck in 1983(?), so towing the trailer will not affect where the gate leads to. Same with the road the nerd got killed on. Dig up a chunk of asphalt and you got a mobile door to that part of the road in the Upside Down.
I'm not a fan personally. I liked the idea of incomprehensible eldritch intelligence out there. I remember Billy's speech when he was possessed by the mindflayer "you let us in and now you are going to let us stay". It sounded so ominous. I thought it was incredible.
Now apparently Vecna was behind it all. He's just an edgelord with a weapon of mass destruction. I would've liked him to simply be a general.
same
He is just the general though, he found mindflayer in the upside down and just gave it a spider form instead of a giant hive. No where is it implied Henry made the upside down or the creatures within since he seen them as he was exploring. They show a demigorgan walking around as he explores. It just seems the Mindflayer uses him as a general to open the gates and lead the army
>he only gave it form and purpose, no where is it implied he's in charge!
you are dumber than a sack of Black folk
Kino
kino voices
>eldritch
This. There was something unsettling about a malevolent entity 'speaking' for the first time through a human and Billy's actor pulled it off fantastically.
To now know that it was just some dumb human's overall revenge plan is highly disappointing.
Guess you could say Mindflayer is like Venom but if the Symbiote were a serparate functioning body.
All of my female friends think Vecna is hot.
How do I compete?
They only think that because it's the current Thing.
Become famous. Nothing matters anymore besides fame and fortune. Think about it anon. Think of influencers and twitch streamers. You have degenerates jerking off to anime cats living in their own garbage, unwashed, teeth rotting, but a ton of females want to get with these people. Why? Popularity and money.
There is no more romance, there is no more love, no more soulmates, no more loyalty, no more working together and being fulfilled in life. There's only greed, wanting more, wanting it easy, not caring about anyone but yourself.
It's the social media age.
Based take. We're totally fricked because of this attitude. There's going to be some very, very bitter people from this being the predominant mentality.
ALL HE FRICKING DID WAS RAISE HIS HAND AND HAVE SOME MEMORIES
NOTHING says outright he made that happen
NOTHING indicates that this cannot be the mindflayer controlling him and taking on a 'scary' form for normal earthfolk
NOTHING is stopping the duffers from injecting new perspective to this scene to make it be whatever the frick they want based on what social media wants more
Black folk we live in a time where that Riverdale show shot a scene about Archie and his guitar because the week prior people were complaining about the music career plot being dropped
this tbh
this show took a huge crapper, the stoner dude is so cringe and makes the show almost unwatchable too
Actually it seems like it's directly ripped off from Warhammer 40K. The evil of man polluted a pristine and wild otherworldly dimension and now it is only a reflection of the wickedness in men's hearts.
The Warp? I thought aliens were in there tens of millions of years before humans.
Yeah, the Warp got fricked up by the Eldar (space elves) way before the humans ever showed up on the galactic scene.
Since the whole show is muh dnd its basically the shadowrealm which is often a nightmarish echo of the material plane
>hurr durr 40k invented Paradise Lost
>hurr durr 40k invented the Bible
you guys are worse than bronies
>Henry created the spidery form of the mindflayer
>Will says that Henry is the same presence that had been in his head, which was how we were introduced to the mindflayer
100% this season implied that the mindflayer is just Henry. They will probably walk it back in s5 because of public opinion and make the mindflayer its own distinct entity again, but it won't change what happened in this season.
It was something. It imbued Henry with its power and I think Henry imbued it with consciousness. They are more a gestalt being at this point.
>a gestalt being
whats up with all those r*ddit words in this thread?
>ummm is that a big word you must be from reddit
I will be ready to cope with it if they do. I just want my MindFlayer back.
my duuudes
the lore is better than ever if you care to partake in some purple palm tree delight
>here's that 18 year old I was telling you about
Vecna being the big bad or not, what exactly happened to him? Eleven seemed adamant during their final confrontation that she killed him but he ended up in the Upside Down. He disintegrated into a portal so what exactly happened to him?
he wandered around the hellscape until he found the mindflayer and merged with it or something. it was total hack writing
You really think the psychic human is in charge, and not the HIVEMIND ALIEN DIMENSION thing literally called Mind Flayer?
yes, because the duffer brothers are idiots
They just make it up as they go. Don't look too far Into it.
One thing I dont understand is why Vecna kept referring to HIMSELF as Vecna. Like DnD didnt come out until the 70s and by then he would have already been at the lab for quite some time, and surely Dr. Brenner wasnt letting them run DnD campaigns in their spare time... I guess maybe he could have found out when he was in Will or one of the other kids mind?
Wut.
We literally see him just discovering it. and making some kind of pact with it. More importantly, it's likely gonna betray him the moment it gets unleashed on earth.
He's a good villain but he should be MF's minion not MF itself.
They are making a spinoff anyways so MF is not the endgame villain. It's just a monster Henry found. That world is probably full of shit like that and worse.
Will there ever be a succubus season?
Why does he have a coomer arm
He touched the Mindflayer entity like he touched the Black Widow.
The Mindflayer took the shape of a spider because Henry was fascinated by them.
It was like a "hello champ, I will give you some power".
Henry IS a general of the Mindflayer.
The is literally the only compelling argument I've seen against the Henry being the Mindflayer.
See
capitalism is hella frickin epicsauce
capitalism is when... public services buy things?
All of Stranger Things deeper plot is so moronic theres almost no point in debating anything about it. Henry's character explains why all this shit happens in this one town, it explains a lot, but its also moronic. But its hard to really care when the turbo power psychic people still get nose bleeds and have to point their stupid arms around to do things, its all trash. Cant wait for next season when the cast gets even uglier
>Henry's character explains why all this shit happens in this one town
Why does this keep being said? It all happens in Hawkins because that's where Eleven made the opening between worlds. NOW it turns out that was originally when fighting Henry, but it was always known she made it happen - it didn't need explaining/justifying.
Can you remind me why Eleven was even in Hawkins to begin with? You're right, but its just another strike against the creators with this season. You cant create a character like this, who's house is in the town, and is the source of all this shit in that town and then just accept that Eleven just happened to go there and trigger everything. His fricking house is in Hawkins, If she made the first portal somewhere else would Hawkins still have been all fricked up cause of that house?
>Can you remind me why Eleven was even in Hawkins to begin with?
Because that's where the government lab with the kids was. Buddha's house is fairly meaningless, UNLESS Papa chose to put the lab there because it's where Henry was from. I don't think that was said, but it seems quite possible. I'll state again, though: Vecna's house is not particularly important. If Eleven made the portal somewhere else, then THAT place would be the centre of things. This is quite cleear from the show, I'm surprised you're confused about it.
Brenner repurposed the hawkins building as a lab bro
The mind flayer could be letting vecna think he's in control and there wil be a power struggle maybe?
Vecna is such a dumb name.
>My first car was a secondhand Vecna with 100,000 miles on it, I was driving it for a week until I crashed because the broken muffler was giving me carbon monoxide poisoning.
Absolutely I thought the upside down was so much more interesting if it was just an evil place vecna happened to be baller enough to carve himself out a little kingdom in it.
There's a cloud.
It has no shape.
Vecna reaches out to it, using his powers
The cloud takes a multi-legged, spidery shape.
How is it being argued the spider shape came frst? It showed itself to Henry then his itself when he turned up? With a foreknowledge we've seen no evidence of?
Maybe the mind flayer simply felt vecnas force and when it did it took its form to investigate this new presence
Vecna/Henry
>I saw a means to realize my potential
>To transcend my human form
>To become the predator I was always born to be
Eleven
>It was you
>Always you
People must have half a brain to deny it's been Henry the entire time and to believe the Mind Flayer is separate or was controlling him.
I think it was always Henry but only to a certain degree. I think the MF is more powerful than Henry but Henry is the link between Hawkins and the upside down. So the MF provides Henry with a way to strengthen his abilities and Henry provides a way to create portals. That’s what I hope at least because otherwise it’s complete shit writing. When Billy was possessed he didn’t speak like someone who used to live in the real world. He didn’t acknowledge El in a personal way like Henry/Vecna did. I think that since Vecna is is weak and beat up, they will take him out early or the MF will get rid of him because he already opened the big gate and fulfilled his purpose.
The "mindflayer" as a separate entity (the big spider in the sky thing) is an actual fact, controlling Henry is a stretch.
The mindflayer as the one who was controlling all the monsters, talking to Eleven,...? Yeah, that's Vecna/Henry.
The only question now is if the mindflayer(spider) is actually able to think or if it's just an evil source of power for Henry.
But from what they told us, yeah it looks like it was just a source of power for him and nothing else.
go to sleep phone poster
Here's the thing. I like Master of Puppets. I do. But Eddie should have gone out listening to either Black Sabbath or solo Ozzy.
Seriously, though. Imagine a retooled version of the scene in which he was going out to Mr. Crowley? Yeah, it's a slower song, but good God, man. Hell. let him have gone out to War Pigs or Iron Man. Sabbath invented Heavy Metal. They just did. I love Zepplin as much as the next guy, but Sabbath invented the genre. And Eddie would have LOVED Ozzy. And Crowley. It's a match made in Hell
Yeah it makes it feel small. Instead of a weird malicious entity in some pocket dimension it's just some guy
Completely ruined it all for me. Season 4 was the toilet flushing on Stranger Things. Our only hope is that we only have a single season to suffer through before we can all move one to something better.
I'm getting some real bad GoT season 8 vibes about Stranger Things Season 5.
>I love Henry
Why? He was such a shit character. "Durr, I want to kill everyone because they're all phonies. Holden Caulfield is literally me."