>end your brilliant epic sci fi trilogy with this meandering piece of shit
What the frick happened here? There is only one thing that matters in the whole film and that's Luke confronting Vader and the Emperor, but even that's ruined because it's cutting between Han and Leia trying to open a door and Ewoks throwing rocks and sticks. 90% is not only complete filler bullshit but also genuinely boring and terribly done. The effects are objectively worse than the first two movies. Constant terrible green screen, awful "comedy", inconsequential side plots, busy work for every character but luke, unresolved plots from empire like Lando/Han relationship and Boba Fett are either completely forgotten or thrown away for comedy.
What THE FRICK were they thinking? Why sabotage the trilogy like this?
Uh oh, you'll anger the manchildren.
OP literally is an angry manchild though
star wars was never good
the original theatrical cut was perfectly watchable and the studio was correct to tell lucas to frick off
>the original theatrical cut was perfectly watchable
even the original theatrical cut is not definitive, as its missing the important scene of luke talking with wedge in the planning room before the trench run. the autist who does the despecialized edition refuses to put it in for that reason
>as its missing the important scene of luke talking with wedge in the planning room before the trench run
You mean the "I used to shoot rats" bit?
>galactic empire is defeated by teddy bears
the same people who complain about gungans love this movie.
empire is defeated by teddy bears
absolutely based
>the greatest evil can be defeated by the smallest good
wait til you find out how Lord of the Rings ends
Exactly. You'll either get it or you won't. Lucas was right about everything and so was Tolkien.
>GEORGE LUCAS: I put the Force into the movies in order to try to awaken a certain kind of spirituality in young people. More a belief in God than a belief in any particular, you know, religious system. I mean, the — the — the — the real question is to ask the question, because if you — if you — having enough interest in the mysteries of life to ask the questions, is — is there a God or is there not a God?, that’s — that’s, for me, the worst thing that can happen. You know, if you asked a young person, ‘Is there a God?’ and they say, ‘I don’t know. ‘ You know? I think you should have an opinion about that.
ewoks are fricking evil tho.
Sauron wasn't defeated in open battle by a bunch of Hobbits doing a slapstick comedy routine though
Neither was Vader or the Emperor
An entire legion of their best troops were, though, and the Empire would have been victorious without the Ewoks
>a bunch of small humanoids barely defeated a bunch of stronger, meaner humanoids
So like Lotr with the humans and orcs.
dumb moron they are supposed to have armor and they were defeated with fricking sticks
grow up, moron
So like in Lotr?
>An entire legion of their best troops were
They were just some goons protecting a base on Endor, I don't think they were highly trained
Thats actually some cope. You don't think the empires soldiers were trained? Don't be moronic.
He can't really be coping because the movie already established that stormtroopers are canon fodder.
If anything, the movie itself is coping.
Cope
Hobbits and Ewoks are equally instrumental in defeating the great evil by the end of their respective movies.
Stop being disingenuous. It's not about the theme, but the way they defeat evil. Frodo and Sam used their small size to sneak unnoticed into the enemy's lair and throw a ring into a volcano. The Ewoks fought armed soldiers with sticks and rocks in a completely laughable way. It would be like the Shire hobbits holding off a Uruk Hai invasion
>Frodo and Sam used their small size to sneak
Yeah, and Ewoks use their small size to toss grenades in big machinery. There were hobbits fighting on the battlefield as well. In fact, one was instrumental in helping a frail woman defeat a Nazgul that made Dumbledore (or was it Gandalf) shit his pants in an earlier scene.
>The Ewoks fought armed soldiers with sticks and rocks in a completely laughable way.
There's actually historical documents of that very same thing happening on the battlefield across different time periods and cultures. Some of the most inspiring tales of warfare actually.
You just find the prospect of the teddy bears too jarring because you don't get the symbolism or the deliberate contrast there.
Just stick to Mauler honestly.
>Yeah, and Ewoks use their small size to toss grenades in big machinery.
Big people can't throw grenades?
>There's actually historical documents of that very same thing happening on the battlefield across different time periods and cultures
Yeah in situations without laser guns and battle armour
Big people can't sneak into places?
>Yeah in situations without laser guns and battle armour
No, idiot. Real life warfare where soldiers had to resort to using literals rocks and any other material that was available to fend off assailants with rifles. The Ottoman sieges in Europe are ripe with such examples.
>Big people can't sneak into places?
Stop being disingenuous you moron, I literally did not say that.
>"rifles" being used during Ottoman sieges
The kinds of guns used in those wars were absolutely nothing like today's weapons, from reloading time, accuracy, their stopping power, everything. The Stormtroopers clearly have stronger weapons and literal body armour.
I can recognise the idea Lucas was going for same as you, it was just executed poorly. It would make sense if this was just some smaller group of Stormtroopers and there was an entire legion of Ewoks storming them, but instead the Stormtroopers are just comically inept.
Ewoks have a much easier time doing that. You were already being disingenuous. And you're just continuing to dig yourself into this hole simply because you were pissed about some teddy bears. Humans are like teddy bears. You wouldn't survive 5 seconds against a real predator like a Lion without your trusty tech.
And yet, people found a way to tame the entire planet to their whim, against the odds.
This is a fairy tale context, it's not meant to be hard sci-fi. It's not Battlestar Galactica. The Ewoks are there to symbolize something and create a polarity with the Empire, both visually and in the way they operate.
It's unironically a shame they didn't use Wookies if only for the fact that Ewoks wouldn't be the number one thing people keep crying about for all these years.
>The kinds of guns used in those wars were absolutely nothing like today's weapons
It's still a major advantage and you know it.
>I can recognise the idea Lucas was going for same as you
Good. Then I have nothing further to add. I don't need everything to make perfect sense in such a context, and suspending my disbelief for Ewoks requires little more imagination than it would for Wookies, who are still technologically inferior.
>Ewoks have a much easier time doing that. You were already being disingenuous.
Throwing a grenade is easier for Ewoks? I'm not being disingenuous at all, I just don't see your logic in the slightest.
>You wouldn't survive 5 seconds against a real predator like a Lion without your trusty tech.
>And yet, people found a way to tame the entire planet to their whim, against the odds.
Yeah, with technology. Nobody without technology can face off against a Lion.
>It's still a major advantage and you know it.
You mean the shitty muskets they had in the past? They were like today's weapons. If you had superior numbers, a defensive position and didn't care about high attrition rates then yeah sure you could win in a fight with them.
*They weren't like today's weapons
>Throwing a grenade is easier for Ewoks?
Down an ST-ST. Ewoks are harder to spot, so they could take advantage of this stealth better than a regular human could. Especially considering they still had warriors in their ranks despite their more crude technology.
Ingenuity is what ultimately won them the fight, although they still had some important assistance.
>Nobody without technology can face off against a Lion
Yeah, that was my point, by a spear is also technology. And people only had weapons similar to those of the Ewoks for a very long period of their history.
So I don't find it that far fetched that a bunch of natives could use guerrilla warfare and home turf advantage to drive back invaders, even if they have inferior tech.
>If you had superior numbers, a defensive position and didn't care about high attrition rates then yeah sure you could win in a fight with them.
It's not nearly as easy as you make it out to be, but at the same time, it's funny how you're not willing to consider the same thing happening in a fantasy setting where stormstroopers are almost comically inaccurate with their aim.
Adding Wookies would simply benefit your suspension of disbelief. Not everyone required that. I still only see Wookies making a difference in close combat, just like the Ewoks did. And it still requires a certain suspension of disbelief to assume they could defeat the Empire. But that's just a classic good vs evil trope that I've accepted in this context.
>Yeah, that was my point, by a spear is also technology. And people only had weapons similar to those of the Ewoks for a very long period of their history.
But people still lived in threat of Lions throughout history even with spears, in fact you have entire villages in India, South America and Africa today that are still defenceless if a tiger or lion decides to come into the village.
>So I don't find it that far fetched that a bunch of natives could use guerrilla warfare and home turf advantage to drive back invaders, even if they have inferior tech.
But they didn't "drive back invaders" it's the Stormtroopers who have a stronger defensive position with a literal base there. They draw out the stormtroopers for their stupid bugs-bunny style traps.
>it's funny how you're not willing to consider the same thing happening in a fantasy setting where stormstroopers are almost comically inaccurate with their aim.
The stormtroopers being comically inaccurate is a part of the problem, like other people have said already the Emperor was expecting the rebels and sent some of his strongest troopers down there.
>And it still requires a certain suspension of disbelief
It's just excusing a shit execution.
>it's the Stormtroopers who have a stronger defensive position with a literal base there
Let's call it 50/50. Base or not, the Ewoks are natives.
>They draw out the stormtroopers for their stupid bugs-bunny style traps.
Yeah, and that shit clearly worked, as it did in 'nam.
>the Emperor
The Emperor was probably not expecting to fall to his death either, but it happened. It's obvious that in such a movie there will be the cliche of a bad guy's plans being foiled despite the odds being in their favor.
That's the problem when you can't suspend your disbelief well enough. Anything can start becoming a plot-hole, and the autistic Mauler style of film analysis fundamentally doesn't operate in the same way language of cinema does.
The mere fact that we're discussing something as stupid as Ewoks to such a detailed degree means that the entire point of them even being in the movie has been lost.
People want an "accurate and scientific" explanation as to why Ewoks won, like that they were secretly super strong or had the force or some other shit, and they're missing the point.
So that's why Wookies, or even better, actual Rebels, would've been a better decision insofar that the average cinemagoer was concerned.
>and they're missing the point
Ewoks were cheaper than Wookies and George wanted to sell toys.
I think the contrast between Ewoks and the Empire is greater, and thus the symbolism is better.
Wookies would've worked better for the casual moviegoer in that they wouldn't have made as much of a big deal about it.
I find it ridiculous that Ewoks have created, and continue to create such debates in general.
Star Wars "fans" might be the most autistic group of people in any hobby.
>Wookies would've worked better for the casual moviegoer
Wookies would have been better because they fit the tone of the previous movies better and it's believable super smart bears could fight evenly with a squad of the Empire's best.
>I find it ridiculous that Ewoks have created, and continue to create such debates in general.
Because they're moronic.
>The Emperor was probably not expecting to fall to his death either, but it happened. It's obvious that in such a movie there will be the cliche of a bad guy's plans being foiled despite the odds being in their favor.
That's fair but he literally says he sent an elite squadron down.
If he'd just said he had troops expecting the rebels then I wouldn't care about their comic ineptitude but it's fair to expect them to be somewhat competent
>That's the problem when you can't suspend your disbelief well enough.
>The mere fact that we're discussing something as stupid as Ewoks to such a detailed degree means that the entire point of them even being in the movie has been lost.
Again, nobody is arguing against the guerilla concept/ little guy being able to defeat the Stormtroopers angle. The problem is execution. If the Ewoks were able to steal their weapons or something, or if we saw them in 10x the numbers of the Stormtroopers then yeah I would probably accept it, but the way it plays out is just so dumb. Having good intentions doesn't same shitty exection.
>People want an "accurate and scientific" explanation as to why Ewoks won, like that they were secretly super strong or had the force or some other shit, and they're missing the point.
I don't, I just expect competency. When supposedly elite stormtroopers are so comically inept you lose all sense of tension and know that they're just pawns who will roll over at the slightest bit of force. It's bad moviemaking.
Ewoks aren't worth such in depth or lengthy discussion whatsoever.
Watch hard sci-fi and don't bother with fantasy set in space (star wars, warhammer,etc)
>Ewoks aren't worth such in depth or lengthy discussion whatsoever.
They take up a substantial part of the movie and are a big reason people don't like ROTJ so yeah I think they're fair game for discussion
>Watch hard sci-fi and don't bother with fantasy set in space (star wars, warhammer,etc)
Literally what are you trying to say here?
He's saying that fantasy is often just chocked up to magic or "the power of good prevailing!" for no real reason whereas hard sci-fi will often go into great detail explaining why or how something happened. Star wars is just fantasy in space.
Pretty much. The thing with Star Wars is, it still has a lot of sci-fi elements in it, in addition to hard rules when it comes to certain things like tech, so I get why people would expect for certain things to make more logical sense.
Even some of the tech is very fantasy-based.
Ewoks were just too cutesy and rubbed people the wrong way. I don't mind them, but I think there should've been more rebel ground troops and not just Ewoks. Oh well.
That's fair but you can still expect the bare minimum of competency and execution here, which the Ewok battle fails on.
>The way in which they achieve their goals is a technicality that is of secondary importance, especially in a fantasy context.
Do you really give a pass to every movie which has a nice concept but totally fails to represent it?
The most important thing to consider is what to think/ feel when watching a movie. Take a look at this sequence of events: the rebels storm the Endor base while the Emperor tells Luke it was all a ploy and he's sent his strongest fighters to confront them. You're wondering how Han and Leia can possibly escape, much less take down the shield generator when facing a threat of this magnitude. Then the little moronic teddy bears come out of nowhere, start fighting an enemy they don't seem to care about and thoroughly destroy them.
Your argument is "well this isn't Star Trek so you don't need to think it through too logically lol" when actually I think Star Wars relies more on on-screen execution because it lacks substance elsewhere. It doesn't need an autistic explanation but there is still a feeling conveyed through film which the Ewok battle doesn't get right.
For example, everything up until this point has shown a rebel army which is hopelessly outmatched by the Empire but through ingenuity it can deal them crushing blows, like blowing up the death star. You can see with Obi-Wan sneaking around the death star how well equip and well manned the Empire are, and that the group can only escape through something clever like disabling the tractor beam. That is a nice way of showing big bad empire vs small rebels through simple storytelling, and without autistic Star Trek exposition of numbers and power levels. The Ewoks don't capture that.
The execution of the concept didn't sit well with you. That's fine. I would've had the same reaction to Wookies as I did to Ewoks.
I have to suspend my disbelief that the primitive tribesmen will have to deal with a seemingly impossible threat from the get-go.
As far as technicalities are concerned, there could've been better storyboards, choreography, and logistical means in which the Ewoks could've prevailed, sure.
More of pic related, basically.
But I also never perceived stormtroopers as particularly competent, and I'm not sure where that tendency started, but it could've been as early as the first film.
I view Endor secondary to the Throne Room sequences.
That was a bigger unknown to me than whether a bunch of guerillas could take down the Emperor's goons.
The battles of Yavin, Hoth, etc, were done better and "more intense" as George would say. I can agree with that.
>But I also never perceived stormtroopers as particularly competent, and I'm not sure where that tendency started, but it could've been as early as the first film.
I think this meme only exists because of ROTJ, they're fairly competent in the first two movies. The opening scene is them storming Leia's ship and killing a bunch of rebels.
Ewoks are a placeholder for what you just mentioned in the previous post. "the guerilla concept/little guy". That's their primary function. The way in which they achieve their goals is a technicality that is of secondary importance, especially in a fantasy context.
>Literally what are you trying to say here?
That they typically adhere more to hard logic and rules that are set in stone, so you wouldn't have as hard of a time to suspend your disbelief about certain things.
Because Star Wars requires a lot of that, even despite some of it's sci-fi elements.
The Ewok/Empire soldiers battle should be treated as a fantasy battle between small impish creatures or fairies and corrupt human armies. Technicalities surrounding the actual logistics of the combat, the troops' prowess, and things of that nature take a back seat to the message and symbolism that is trying to be conveyed.
It still wouldn't have been very believable if you look at it purely logically. Even WITH bow casters, the Wookies would likely lose if we're being realistic. Let alone with sticks and stones. But that wasn't the point.
As for the tone, maybe. But then again, Star Wars was kind of silly and whimsical from the beginning. As is most fantasy. The difference is that it wasn't a parody of itself, and not everything was played as a gag.
There weren't pointless quips, and things of that nature, or at least not such that undercut serious moments.
>Because they're moronic.
Overgrown dogs flying space ships are also moronic. It's all a matter of how much you're willing to suspend disbelief for the sake of the story. And obviously that's not everyone's cup of tea. Hence why you may prefer hard sci-fi which adheres to more particular rules.
>Ewoks are a placeholder for what you just mentioned in the previous post.
They're a toy advertisement made specifically to appeal to children.
>It still wouldn't have been very believable if you look at it purely logically.
It'd be far more believable as Wookies are smarter, more physically capable, have a warlike mentality and are closer to the Empire technologically.
>Even WITH bow casters, the Wookies would likely lose if we're being realistic.
Believably lose in a much closer fight without stupid 'gags'.
>But that wasn't the point.
The point was George being a scummy businessman and making decisions based on money over what was best for the movie.
>Star Wars was kind of silly and whimsical from the beginning.
It's about degrees, SW is a pulpy adventure fairy tale with some darkness here and there to add to the tension, Wookies fit that perfectly, Ewoks dipped far more into kiddie shit.
>not everything was played as a gag.
Except for the gags involving the Ewoks which were terrible. And all the action involving the Ewoks. And the attempts at pathos involving the Ewoks. They have no redeeming factor.
>Overgrown dogs flying space ships are also moronic.
Where is Chewbacca treated as dumb outside RotJ? We can't understand his language and he has a temper but that isn't a sign of stupidity, by all accounts he's as smart as Han.
>It's all a matter of how much you're willing to suspend disbelief for the sake of the story.
Which is greatly dictated by the tone which the Ewoks don't fit.
>Hence why you may prefer hard sci-fi which adheres to more particular rules.
Technobabble to justify what happened doesn't make for better storytelling.
Imagine writing all this shit about a fricking kid's movie
>They're a toy advertisement made specifically to appeal to children.
Everything already was, but sure, they catered more to younger audiences than some other characters.
>It'd be far more believable as Wookies are smarter
Not by a whole lot. The Ewoks clearly had a few tricks up their sleeve if they could dispose of AT-STs. The physical capability part is true, but then again, the empire's soldiers weren't particularly impressive in terms of physical prowess either. Probably another fault of the movies, as they could've been portrayed as being more capable to begin with.
>have a warlike mentality
Ewoks were as warlike as any tribal society could be, shy of warfare being the only thing important in their culture. They're not Mandalorians, but neither are Wookies.
> and are closer to the Empire technologically
Depends. Most depictions of Wookies in their own societies have them use low-tech, like Ewoks. I know Chewie had a bow-caster but that may as well have been an exception, especially during the time the OT was being made, where we knew practically nothing about the Wookies. I think the battle would've been played out in a very similar way to what we saw. But the difference is that the Wookie's physicality would've made it all more believable for people who were focused on the logistics of the fight.
>The point was George being a scummy businessman and making decisions based on money over what was best for the movie.
That doesn't go in line with his commentary on such movies and how much he hates them. It's true that he was also a businessman, but that was secondary. And let's be real, you wouldn't say no to the opportunity of easy money if it were on the table either.
>They have no redeeming factor
That's a very individual take that can't really be deemed as objective. Some people like the Ewoks. Same with the droids. But some hated them from the start.
1/2
>Where is Chewbacca treated as dumb outside RotJ?
The concept of an overgrown dog being intelligent is just as ridiculous as teddy bears being intelligent. One just looks more imposing so you trick yourself into thinking it's not ridiculous.
Again, there's a lot of suspension of disbelief required when viewing such fantasy films, and some will be more willing to do it than others.
There's a certain balance you want to strike when making such a story, and as George put it "I may have gone too far in few places". Personally I found Jar-Jar more jarring than Ewoks, because he was played almost entirely as a joke, and more frequently too.
Ewoks, despite looking cutesy and silly, were simply born with that physicality, same as a Wookie would be born a certain way. Jar Jar made it a point to be a jester.
>Which is greatly dictated by the tone which the Ewoks don't fit.
Have you seen the cantina aliens? The blue elephant thing?
They fit in just fine. It's just that they don't fit that well in the context of warfare, that was the real issue.
>Technobabble to justify what happened doesn't make for better storytelling.
In this case, it could. Because your fundamental problem with Eworks IS based on technobabble, or rather, it's absence. They're too small, weak and technologically illiterate to be able to beat the stormtroopers in your opinion. A squad of rebels with similar tech would make more sense to you, hence why technobabble would improve your viewing experience. And hard sci-fi adheres more closely to realistic or believable logical rules.
Star Wars kind of threw that away by virtue of the Force being a thing, among others.
This was 2/2.
And I'm now done with the topic of Ewoks, as I think they've been discussed to the extent that they deserve, so I'll abstain from continuing the conversation further.
>The concept of an overgrown dog being intelligent is just as ridiculous as teddy bears being intelligent.
He's able to work on the ship and have conversations with Han, of course he's intelligent
>Personally I found Jar-Jar more jarring than Ewoks
99% of people probably feel the same
Would you take a smart Ewok seriously?
Well yeah they're able to communicate so they're clearly smart
They shouldn't have any comprehension of how to fight Stormtroopers or how their weapons and machines work.
>They shouldn't have any comprehension of how to fight Stormtroopers or how their weapons and machines work.
They don’t though? As if dropping a rock onto something you want dead is a technologically advanced concept
Is that a yes or a no? My point still stands. The reason why you take Chewie seriously is because you can suspend your disbelief for a big dog with a blaster rifle. Big dog = make brain no confusion
Small teddy bear = brain go confusion
Both are ridiculous. One appears more threatening and is thus more organic in a war setting. But then there's shit like Yoda, who is a buck fifty and could take out a group of Wookies on his own.
The very nature of Star Wars makes such debates moronic the further you delve into detail. It's not supposed to be taken so seriously in the first place. So yeah, I'll have to let it go at this point as I said earlier.
Invest some time in hard sci-fi and you still might find you enjoy that better.
dude your really overthinking this. The Ewoks are just pre-contact wookies, albeit smaller. They’re an indigenous tribe with simple morals who decide to help the rebels. There’s probably 100 pulp novels about whitener being stranded on an island who have to team up with a tribe to beat the cannibals or the pirates or whatever.
I take Chewie seriously because he travels around the galaxy, is exposed to all the technology of it/ clearly understands everything, has and knows how to operate a gun, can work on the ship and so on.
The Ewoks are just some natives who believe in gods and magic and have no comprehension of this stuff.
I don't even know what you're trying to argue here, Chewbacca is clearly intelligent
The Ewoks are intelligent life too but they have no exposure to what's going on, they're like the native people of Earth before contact with European explorers.
The concept of an alien in a film is ridiculous in and of itself.
>NOOOOO BIG DOG WHO WORKS ON SHIP GOOD. SMOL BEAR HURT MY BRAIN
magic is a thing in star wars, it's called the force
enjoy thinking about that for 2 hours now
What is your point?
it's a plot hole bigger than ewoks and anything else
magic makes no logical sense
take your meds
it makes you seethe, doesn't it?
that there's magic in your sci-fi 😛
No. Are you literally off your meds? You're not making any sense.
meddy meddy
takey takey!
look if you want to argue for the slippery slope and say it started with ROTJ, I would get that. Luke and Leia being related and ewoks definitely was a precursor to Vader building C3PO and Gungans. That’s a valid point. But it still doesn’t make ROTJ instantly a shit movie.
Damn Sheev is truly the Devil.
leia can fly in space
Han doesn't really understand wookie. He's just talking to himself and pretending Chewbacca can talk, like a lot of pet owners do.
Chewbacca has human eyes, Ewoks are black and soulless.
THEY BLINK NOW?
>The concept of an overgrown dog being intelligent is just as ridiculous as teddy bears being intelligent.
Chewie is consistently portrayed as intelligent, Ewoks are portrayed as child-like, being unrealistic is fine if it fits within the rules and tone established by the setting and is executed well.
>There's a certain balance you want to strike when making such a story
That the Ewoks break.
>were simply born with that physicality
It isn't just the physicality, it's how they act and their capabilities, Wookies are blatantly better suited to fighting the Empire.
>Have you seen the cantina aliens?
Yes, the fantastical adding to the fairy tale aspect (being in strange places and seeing weird things which makes them slightly threatening). They aren't portrayed as simpletons and don't pick fights with the Empire's best.
>Because your fundamental problem with Eworks IS based on technobabble
It's based on them being a terrible merchandising gimmick.
>They're too small, weak and technologically illiterate to be able to beat the stormtroopers in your opinion.
And contrast with the tone of the previous movies while everything they do is cringe.
>hence why technobabble would improve your viewing experience.
Could care less for any explanation offered as to why the Ewoks won, the bumbling way the fight's portrayed, their shitty humor, attempts at tragedy, having no connection to the rebels or Empire while being the deciding factor, etc is awful.
>Everything already was
Kurtz was explicitly against this sort of shit and no one expected ANH (which invented modern movie merchandising) to be as successful as it was, the toy shit came after.
>they catered more to younger audiences
They catered exclusively to very young children if that.
>Not by a whole lot.
You're either lying or stupid, Wookies are better for fighting than Ewoks in every way but being larger targets, it would be far closer/more believable.
>The Ewoks clearly had a few tricks up their sleeve if they could dispose of AT-STs.
Wookies could BUILD shit like AT-STs, you think they couldn't figure out how to take them apart and do so more easily with weapons on a similar level as the Empire's?
>The physical capability part is true, but then again, the empire's soldiers weren't particularly impressive in terms of physical prowess
Because they were written as buffoons as the Ewoks needed to win.
>Probably another fault of the movies, as they could've been portrayed as being more capable to begin with.
They were perfectly capable until they needed to lose to teddy bears.
>Ewoks were as warlike as any tribal society
They're Care Bears who take in strangers, Chewie was going to rip someone's arm off over a board game, and more importantly Wookies had an at least human tier understanding of tactics, the capabilities of the Empire, etc.
>depictions of Wookies
None of that is in the OT, Chewie pilots and fixes the Falcon, uses a blaster in combat and understands what robots are, he isn't some moronic hunter gatherer and nothing suggests other Wookies are either.
>played out in a very similar way
The stupid gags being gone would already be a vast improvement.
>That doesn't go in line with his commentary on such movies
Because he's a liar who changes his story to be whatever makes him look best in the moment.
>That's a very individual take
That's the truth.
>Some people like the Ewoks.
Some people have brain damage.
George was making a Wizard of Oz/Knights in shining armor adjacent picture from the get-go.
Toys or not. The toys were a very organic continuation from that. I wouldn't be surprised if he did expect it.
>Wookies are better for fighting
I was talking about their general intelligence. At least pay attention.
>Wookies could BUILD shit like AT-STs
Based on what evidence? Something you saw in the prequels? Chewie understanding his way around the Millenium Falcon doesn't prove he could build an AT-ST with a team of Wookies.
>Because they were written as buffoons as the Ewoks needed to win.
This would've still applied had they faced the Wookies, by virtue of the Empire's tech being superior.
>They're Care Bears who take in strangers
No they weren't. They had weapons and engaged in warfare. You're focusing on appearance.
>and nothing suggests other Wookies are eithe
And nothing suggests other Wookies are like him either.
>Because he's a liar who changes his story to be whatever makes him look best in the moment.
You're clearly biased. There's been virtually nothing stopping him from telling the story he wants to tell. And people didn't respond well to all of it. Hence why Disney came and "fixed" Star Wars to adhere to the "fans".
>The toys were a very organic continuation from that.
Yes, not the driving force until after Empire when George burned out.
>I wouldn't be surprised if he did expect it.
He bet against Star Wars success.
>I was talking about their general intelligence.
That's even dumber.
>Based on what evidence?
The fact Chewie works on warp drives and robots.
>This would've still applied had they faced the Wookies
No it wouldn't as Wookies are far more capable, Stormtroopers wouldn't need to be dumbed down to sell the threat.
>They had weapons and engaged in warfare.
They had sharp sticks, Chewie uses the same kind of weaponry everyone else does.
>and engaged in warfare
With no understanding of the tactics needed to fight enemies at the Empire's level.
>And nothing suggests other Wookies are like him either.
He's our only insight into Wookies in the OT and never stated nor implied to be an outlier, Han even generalizes his anger at losing in the game as a wookie trait, there's nothing to suggest he isn't fairly average for his species.
>You're clearly biased.
He directly lied to Spielberg about having ideas for Indy sequels and claimed just a few years ago Leia was the true MC.
>There's been virtually nothing stopping him from telling the story he wants to tell.
Wasn't talking about his movies, he lies about the development process that went into them and the story to make himself look good, he's a massive narcissist.
>Yes, not the driving force
Anon it was always a fairy tale in space. Toys or not. He told his story the way he wanted to tell it in 6 films. The rest is business, and anyone would be a moron to say no to money.
>Anon it was always a fairy tale in space.
Yes, which is different than being made explicitly to sell toys.
>He told his story the way he wanted to tell it in 6 films.
He constantly b***hed while making the prequels he didn't get to tell the OT how he wanted.
>The rest is business, and anyone would be a moron to say no to money.
So you admit he's just a greedy frick who lessened his creation for the sake of money he no longer needed.
ewoks weren’t even hot selling toys though.
AT-ST*
The point is that people were able to tame lions, mammoths, and all kinds of beasts with a very rudimentary kind of technology. They were the tiny Ewoks winning over seemingly impossible obstacles.
And yeah, the Empire had technology of their own, which was their strength. But Ewoks had home turf advantage, more numbers, and guerilla tactics that proved to be useful.
Wookies winning the battle would've still been hard to believe, especially without bow casters and such weapons, but that's just to be expected as a trope.
>The point is that people were able to tame lions, mammoths, and all kinds of beasts with a very rudimentary kind of technology.
People have never tamed lions you fricking moron, how many times are you going to bring this up.
Cavemen were able to hunt mammoths because they were basically big cow/elephants, they weren't that deadly with a bit of thinking. While Lions have claws and quick reflexes that mean they're still a threat today.
They're only a threat to the most run-down societies.
Even tribesmen can take care of such beasts with success, provided it's not some out of the blue situation, and they live near them and expect such encounters with wildlife.
>And people only had weapons similar to those of the Ewoks for a very long period of their history.
And weren't fighting elite troops with laser guns.
>where stormstroopers are almost comically inaccurate with their aim.
RotJ is what invented the 'stormtroopers are incompetent meme', in both ANH and ESB they're a genuine threat.
>I still only see Wookies making a difference in close combat
Chewbacca is a mechanic/engineer/pilot, Wookies are fricking smart, Ewoks are dumb savages.
>You wouldn't survive 5 seconds against a real predator like a Lion without your trusty tech
Kinda like the Ewoks wouldn't survive 5 seconds against high tech Stormtroopers since they themselves had limited technology?
>And yet, people found a way to tame the entire planet to their whim, against the odds
Yes? With technolgy! Which the Empire had and the Ewoks didn't! You're only defeating yourself here really. Talk about digging into a hole.
>Kinda like the Ewoks
Strength in numbers.
>With technolgy!
Which started off on a level that was similar to that of the Ewoks, or even below.
>well akshually
Ok homosexual. A few Spaniards conquered an entire army of Aztecs with virtually no casualties. An army with futuristic technology would never break a sweat against teddy bears
Lol, you can't even fathom warfare without your precious technology. Priceless.
I fricking love that real history proves you wrong. Back when men were men.
>There were hobbits fighting on the battlefield as well
Two to be exact
And one helped take down someone stronger than Gandalf.
Probably stronger than any Empire footsoldier.
Frodo and Gollum inside Mt Doom is basically a comedy routine
No, Sauron's strongest minion was defeated by a 40 pound girl lmao
Yeah, he was defeated by some Gamestop employee by getting his finger cut off. Why is Sauron suck a b***h?
They just got lucky with ANH and ESB, Jedi is solid if you cut out all of the Endor shit.
I'm sure ANH was groundbreaking for its time but fricking shit it's so old it's unwatchable
Zoom zoom.
Sure it is zoomie, it's not like it's been the basis of every action / space opera flick for the last 40 years or more.
What? How? ANH holds up the best out of all of them since the empire climax has been over saturated by pop culture. ANH is wall to wall classic scenes and dialogue and you get all the great character intros, music, the call to adventure. What makes it unwatchable?
Wait a few years and your '20s capeshit green screen crap will become the real unwatchable trash (it already is imo). Real special effects age better, that's a fact
ROTJ is littered with awful green screen.
He said "A New Hope"
The only scenes in the OT i find unwatchable are the Hoth battle, the space battle in RotJ and Endor. Not a single thing in ANH is unwatchable
ANH would still hold up if the dialogue was remastered. The old timey sound design on the voices is really badly aging it
The plotting of the Jabba stuff was completely prequel-tier, it's just a first draft mess of contrivances to get everyone to the sarlack setpiece. People let it slide in 1983 because it's just the intro but Lucas was already getting sloppy as hell.
>unresolved plots from empire like Lando/Han relationship and Boba Fett
neither are unresolved
They "resolve" Han and Lando by just not mentioning that the last time Han saw Lando he was pissed at him, so we can "imagine" the "resolution" that happened off screen in our minds. Boba Fett is thrown away for a laugh despite being buoy up as a secondary villain at the end of Empire.
if you want to watch han and lando get pissy with each other at inappropriate times then i think you're just gay
I want to watch a resolution to the characters that were set up in the previous film yea.
what sort of resolution were you thinking of if not the aforementioned gay shit
Could literally just be a look into a head nod when they first see each other again. Literally anything besides just cutting to a scene where they are getting ready for battle discussing who's going to fly the falcon as if the last movie never happened.
did you forget the circumstances in which they first saw each other again
Yea it was an action scene and they still needed a moment to resolve the conflict in Empire after it was over but they just go on. It's not about it being necessary it's about making the trilogy actually connect and feel important instead of just rug pulling the emotional cliffhangers at the end of empire.
okay so based on what you understand about han solo would he have gotten into an argument with lando or rescue him in that scene
What? You realize what I am saying doesn't literally have to be the exact moment he sees him again right? They can have this moment as they fly away to safety.
what would be the point when they already interacted with each other before then
The Lando situation was already resolved. He apologized for doing it in Empire and pleads with them that he was forced to do it. Leia and Chewy forgive him. Lando then risks his life to help them rescue Han in ROTJ. It's the classic "show, don't tell". An actual scene with Han and Lando yelling at each other would be superfluous because the audience already knows it's done and Lando is on their side now.
>Han giving Lando the falcoln back in an obvious sign that they trust each other again and are back on good terms isn't good enough
>but a head nod would do it!
Do you have autism?
You get that with Vader and Luke you dumb frick.
>Vader and Luke resolve Lando and Fett
What's there to resolve with Fett anyway, he got Han and gave him to Jabba. Everything is resolved there.
people being mad at the Fett death is the most postmodern manchild shit ever. He was an 80’s henchman and got an 80’s henchman death laced with irony. Honestly not bad at all.
Yeah as a kid I would have loved to see him fly around on a jet pack shooting rockets but we have that now with the Manchildalorian and it’s fricking moronic
filtered.com
RotJ is the best of the OT though
>I'll just say the opposite but with absolutely nothing to substantiate that claim
>People don’t appreciate just how much the luke and vader stuff elevates the entire trilogy
And that amounts to about 10 minutes of runtime in a 2hr+ film. And that emotional moment is chopped up between 3 other scenes that are completely different tones and essentially pointless.
Your criticism amounted to nothing of substance.
"Too much green screen and comedy" Barely worth addressing.
Terrible strawman singling out the last sentence of a whole paragraph of points. Troll confirmed. Last (you)
That's the essence of your points. Like I said, nothing of real substance.
>Boba Fett was thrown away
What did you expect? Did you watch this years after he became a thing of importance?
>can still only address the last sentence
Actual last (you)
Ok homosexual, here's your address.
> There is only one thing that matters in the whole film and that's Luke confronting Vader and the Emperor
Yes, and just about everything else regarding the protagonists of the story. Luke's resolve would mean nothing on it's own. He's not the only person in the movie. The literal fate of the galaxy is at stake here.
> it's cutting between Han and Leia trying to open a door and Ewoks throwing rocks and sticks.
Yes, they're at war with the empire. I don't even get the point you're trying to make here. That's like complaining that during Obi Wan and Vader's fight in the first movie, they cut to the other protagonists trying to navigate the empire's base.
What exactly do you want? A solo Luke Skywalker film?
>90% is not only complete filler bullshit but also genuinely boring and terribly done
Subjective. You can take out any scene and say it's boring to you and it would only amount to your personal opinion. You can easily say the entire film was boring with no exception.
>The effects are objectively worse than the first two movies
Not even true. The effects in the OT are generally the same across the board.
>Constant terrible green screen
Goes in hand with your point about the effects.
>awful "comedy"
The comedy wasn't heavy-handed or shoved in your face unlike modern movies. It's fine to not consider it funny, but it also didn't take away from the seriousness of the movie, because it's organic.
>inconsequential side plots
Such as?
>busy work for every character but luke
Luke had the most prominent arc in the movie.
>unresolved plots from empire like Lando/Han relationship
It's clear enough by the end that the victory bonded everyone together. You don't need to "resolve" something that is obvious.
They were already working towards the same goal.
>Boba Fett
Already addressed this. Boba was nothing but a gun for hire in the OT, same as any other bounty hunter. That was the extent of his importance to the story.
Yep, that 10 minutes gives the entire trilogy a satisfying arc, a coherent and consistent message about the force and how the jedi code is ultimately superior to the dark side without just making its magic powers stronger and also one of the best main villains of all time with the emperor. It’s all barely in the movie but it just wraps up the other two films in such a perfect way. The ewok shit I can overlook because of it, I basically just switch to B movie watching mode during those scenes and try to laugh. People also forget that the space battles and opening on tatooine are also great in ROTJ.
The Ewoks are nature and goodness defending itself against the technological boot of the empire. I never saw any issue with it.
Originally the plan was for them to be Wookies, but I think Ewoks were a better choice as it made Chewbacca more distinct.
You can try to frame it like it's Princess Mononoke but it's not. The ewoks are played for laughs in 100% of their scenes, and they are savages that were going to eat the main characters until look did a goofy little trick with 3PO. There's no "spiritual goodness of nature" theme or some shit at play here.
>The ewoks are played for laughs in 100% of their scenes
Yes, they're goofy little creatures. Compare their innocence and simplicity to the empire and you'll see the contrast.
> and they are savages that were going to eat the main characters
The difference is that this is nature's way of survival, whereas the empire is beyond simply taking the rebels and cooking them for sustenance. It's a vice grip on the entire galaxy. Ewoks, gungans, and everything in between.
>There's no "spiritual goodness of nature" theme
Yes there is.
You don't need to convince me it's a great scene. I agree with everything you say except that overlooking the other 90% is your personal choice. The fact of the matter is they blew the ending to the trilogy because that 90% could have actually been meaningful and emotional in its own right, could have built to that Luke scene more properly, could have lent that scene even more power by committing to Hans death like Harrison wanted. It could have done so many things to be an incredible climax to the trilogy but instead they blew it.
If you were gonna kill Han you gotta kill him in Empire
I think we agree honestly, I just have a more forgiving outlook. When I think about what the movie could have been if all of the endor stuff was stronger, it really makes me feel the wasted potential and how they blew the majority of the run time on stupid, boring garbage. I just personally think the luke and vader stuff softens the blow of all that to the point where it saves the movie
Lucas is a hack who got lucky several generations of manchildren will watch his dreck.
Empire already sorta fricked up the franchise by retconning Obi-Wan's character into a weirdo liar who sent a teenager into extremely dangerous war without telling him the truth, it's just that it's so good in other ways that almost everyone doesn't have a problem with it
Explain? I’m not a SW super fan
The Empire Strikes Back reveals that Vader is Luke's father. In A New Hope, Obi Wan encourages Luke to join the rebellion while at the same time withholding the information that Vader is Luke's father - information that Obi Wan knew all along. Imagine meeting a brave teenager who longs to join the rebellion and you know that it will be extremely dangerous for him if he does - he could very well get killed. The teenager asks you about his father, who you know is actually a key leader of the forces that the teenager will have to fight if he joins the rebellion. But you withhold from the teenager the information that that guy is actually his father and you instead make up some bullshit about how actually that guy betrayed and killed his father. Imagine if Luke had died in the war like two weeks after he had that conversation with Obi-Wan. Luke would have died without ever having learned the truth about his father, except maybe in the afterlife.
I mean, this is not a bad plot twist per se, it's just that it is not properly handled because instead of handling it as a huge reveal like "oh shit, it turns out that the nice old heroic guy from the first movie is actually a cynical Machiavellian bastard", the franchise just hand-waves it away with like one bullshit line of dialogue in Return of the Jedi about "from a certain point of view".
Darth Vader isn't Luke's father. Anakin is Luke's father. They might share the same body but they're not the same person.
Don't be a homosexual
It would have been better to not even have Obiwan ever become a ghost to make an excuse than do the certain point of view bullshit
Force ghosts work in favor of making the force seem more mystical and inexplicable, and expand it's complexity. Having the force simply be "move shit with your mind" would be too shallow and basic.
Force ghosts showing up with mystique when Luke is having a near death experience in empire, or hearing the voice when Luke needs to use the force to destroy the death star in star wars = good
Force ghosts popping down to have an extended back and forth conversation = bad. It wasn't quite as bad when he showed up in Empire with Yoda because OT Yoda is some high mystic monk that can believably commune with spirits, but the conversation in RotJ is absolute prequel shit.
Mad cause you don't understand a children's space movie about magic samurai. Grow up.
Call me moronic but it’s so rare for movies to have a confirmed afterlife and I actually enjoy it a lot. Spirits of the dead giving people advice is cool
I do like afterlife stuff but there has to be a little mystery to it. A voice saying "Use the force, Luke" is the pinnacle of that sort of thing.
I get what you mean. When they make it too concrete it becomes mundane and raises a lot of odd questions. I do think the afterlife was mystical and more immaterial until ROTJ, where we get the famous alec guiness sat on a log as a ghost giving exposition scene
I don't even like Obi Wan saying, "Trust me, Luke" in Star Wars, just "Use the force" and "Let go" were plenty.
He was a ghost even in the first movie you moron
True, but I think they play into it a bit. Obi wan wants luke to kill vader, which was obviously a fear driven and incorrect dark side like decision. In the end luke rejecting obi wans advice and choosing love instead saves the day. Obi wan is proven to be a shitty jedi and completely wrong
That's a good point actually, I'm still just surprised at just how shitty of a Jedi Obi Wan turned out to have been. Like, he's a "use a boy as a pawn by lying to him" level of shitty.
It made him seem more realistic and flawed. His whole shtick was that he's a rusty Jedi who gave up on that path a long time ago, only resurfacing thanks to Luke.
And given the history he has with his father, it's not the easiest thing in the world to tell Luke the truth as it really happened.
That's why the And-He-Was-a-Good-Friend green texts are always so hilarious
>Obi wan wants luke to kill vader, which was obviously a fear driven and incorrect dark side like decision
Lol what? Maybe by prequel logic it is, but in the OT it makes sense to kill him.
Idk why morons always say this, the idea is that Obi-Wan is protecting Luke from the terrible knowledge that his father is pure evil. It's not him tricking Luke it's him looking out for him.
The more I grow the more I like it. People don’t appreciate just how much the luke and vader stuff elevates the entire trilogy, it’s just a perfect ending. We go from one dimensional villain and boring adventure hero in ANH, to asspull twist in ESB, to absolute kino father and son reconciliation in ROTJ. It’s one of the few films where the hero wins by rejecting violence and it doesn’t feel forced or unsatisfying, in fact it feels like the only satisfying ending that was possible. Still makes me emotional
>People don’t appreciate just how much the luke and vader stuff elevates the entire trilogy
RotJ butchered both of their characters.
Agreed. That relationship is the meat of it all. Anakins self sacrifice was epic....
Better than rise of shitwalker 😀
>sci fi
stopped reading right there
confirmed brainlet
>wahhhhh you didn't say fantasy wahhhhh. Arguing semantics makes me smart wahhhh
yes homosexual
do you know what would happen if I messed up semantics in my field as a surgeon? shut the frick up
>wegotabadasshere.jpg
>wegotamoronichomosexualoverhere.jpg
People don't like to admit the beginning is a complete waste of time
it’s cool though. jabbas palace is visually great, the rancor and sarlaac are cool, the barge fight is a fun (terribly choreographed) action scene.
Would you have preferred the title scroll to just say Han Solo had been saved? Thank God you weren't in charge of making the movies
ANH purists always have shit Star Wars takes. Certain franchises are meant for a specific audience and that audience alone. SW is one of them. For a more gaudy example, but still as correct, Transformers is one of them.
I would have preferred something that had to do with the rest of the movie.
How was it not relevant to the plot? They were there to save Han. You know the guy who had a very dramatic scene the previous movie and got frozen almost to death and taken away to God knows where? The stakes were high and everyone had hit rock bottom by the end of Empire. RotJ shows the good guys rising up again one piece at a time. It's the whole point of the movie.
Lucas shadow directed this movie. Markant was TV movie director and Lucas was able to control him. It’s partly why the return of the Jedi looks and feels so boringly shot in comparison to Empire which kershnerr directed the shit out off while Lucas was occupied with establishing his lucasfilm empire. ROTJ is a proto Prequel in many regards. And clearly establishes many of the quirks Lucas would display on full swing with the prequels.
Whoever directed the prequels, none of it was as good as the throne room scenes
Yeah but it gave us the coolest space fighter design, the TIE Interceptor
5>4>3>6>1>2>>>>>>>>
I still don’t understand how some plot beats are so disconnected from the previous movies. The entire conflict between luke and the emperor is based on nothing. Luke is suddenly struggling against the dark side? Darth vader has good in him? When did that happen? It definitely wasn’t in the previous movies. It feels unearned and unjustified and therefore hollow.
Exactly. Imagine if instead of all the Endor shit they spent 1.5 hours properly setting up the Emperor and giving Luke more of a reason to think Vader could turn good.
>they spent 1.5 hours properly setting up the Emperor
1.5 hours?? You're actually insane.
>Luke is suddenly struggling against the dark side?
He does this in Empire when he goes into the place that is strong with the dark side
> Darth vader has good in him?
I see your point, but at the end of ESB when Vader tells Luke he's his father, you can clearly see Vader honestly trying to convince Luke to follow him and rule the galaxy with him, in a very "fatherly" way. You can see him going from this monolithic evil guy to a father who really doesn't want to kill his son during a war and try his best to convince him to join his side. It's not like he became good, but that scene still shows that behind the cracking voice and the scary mask there's a person with human emotions, not a robot
Wishful thinking. He was thinking of him solely as a tool to overthrow the emperor for his own selfish power gain. Nothing more. Confirmed by Lucas.
>Luke is suddenly struggling against the dark side?
He isn't, it's just the Emperor almost manages to corrupt him in the throne room scene
>Darth vader has good in him? When did that happen?
In TESB Vader appears a little squeamish about killing his son to the Emperor
I don't think there's anything wrong with the Luke/Vader/Emperor plotline, that's pretty much the only good part of the movie, it's just all the other shit like the Ewok battle and "OMG it's a second death star!!!"
So if we agree that the Luke/Vader/Emperor stuff is solid, how would you rewrite it to resolve where we left off in ESB and gives proper arcs for the other stories and characters?
How to make ROTJ a better movie:
>make it so that Luke and Leia aren't brother and sister
>have them be a couple at start of movie >they travel to some planet that ISN'T tatooine in order to save han
>keep jabba the hutt because he was cool
>don't include boba fett, there was no reason for him to be in ROTJ
>when han becomes unfrozen it causes tension between luke, leia, and han
>luke basically gets cucked by han
>this will be an important plot point later on
>everything proceeds as in original movie up until the endor part
>KEEP second death star
>rebuilding only makes sense (WTC towers were rebuilt after 9/11)
>replace endor with kashyyyk
>replace ewoks with wookiees
>cut out all the comedic crap from the original movie
>in throne room, the emperor uses the han-leia relationship to taunt luke
>luke gets pissed off because he loves leia
>rest of movie proceeds as in original
Basically, the issue with the original movie was that there was no substance. There wasn't really anything for Luke to get mad about. Turn him into an incel and it would unironically be a better movie.
I don't think I could put up with Luke cuck memes.
Eh idk about second death star still.
What if it's just something like attacking the Empire headquarters on Coruscant?
And there's not much point in Luke being a cuck then nothing changing. Either kill Han or keep the sister thing so that movie doesn't end with tension.
>>have them be a couple
She already had a thing with Han too. The sister thing made it convenient for her to decide on Han, and Luke didn't have to feel shitty about being a third wheel.
Plus, the "incest" was never particularly severe. It extended to something that could realistically happen even in a real scenario. Leia was largely platonic with Luke, and kissed him as a thank you basically.
Rest I can agree with, more or less.
But I think the sister thing was enough of a taunt for Luke to lose it, considering everything else that happened.
>and kissed him as a thank you basically
She actually kisses him just as a "frick you" to Han
>The sister thing made it convenient for her to decide on Han, and Luke didn't have to feel shitty about being a third wheel.
Yeah I think Luke added the sister stuff so he could easily resolve the love triangle without Luke getting hurt.
I even sometimes wonder if he added the narrative about Jedi being incels as some kind of justification for Luke not getting a gf at the end of the series.
Empire sets up his struggle against the dark side. It's an inversion of ANH. Luke believed it was his destiny to become a jedi knight like his father only to find out his father is one of the most evil men in the galaxy. He sees himself in his father which is why he struggles with his shattered and naive idea of what a jedi is and why he rejects his masters' instruction to kill Vader. Because he saw himself in Anakin, he could also see the good in him. The scene in the swamp where he cuts off the vision of Vader's head and his own head rolls out of the helmet spells this out.
>hating on ewoks
This isn't reddit you know...
Star Wars is cursed
People only hate Return of the Jedi because Han Solo doesn't have much to do and because of the Ewoks.
People are perfectly fine with Avatar having a bunch of sexy bluecat people destroying an entire army with sticks and big rocks but when the ewoks beat a thousand stormtroopers (the exact number) with hoke tuft advantage, people flip their shit.
Ewokes are based cause it's George humiliating a bunch of midgets for a small paycheck.
I legit think the movie would've been worse if they went with some other species.
It was meant to be Wookies which would have been cool. Also, people seem to forget that there were two more Ewok movies right after ROTJ.
>It was meant to be Wookies which would have been cool.
Completely disagree.
>were two more Ewok movies right after ROTJ.
See, if you want to argue that the Holiday Specials are bad, then I agree. But treating RotJ as being the same is dishonest.
It wasn't the holiday special. And tons of fans were eager to see the Wookie planet and them battle the empire for so many years. All anyone got was a short scene in Episode 3 after all that time. The Ewoks are ok but not as interesting. The Wookies seem far more capable and intelligent.
Wookies would've been like Ewoks, except big and hairy, and people wouldn't have cared about a bunch of Wookies dying. But even subconsciously, seeing something of that stature get hurt makes it more impactful.
More than anything else, Chewie stands out better when he's the sole Wookie in the story.
A solo Ewok movie is just a bad idea because they no longer serve the same purpose in the story.
Ewoks received hate because they were too cutesy and muh super dramatic space opera needed more machismo in it.
But the contrast between ewoks and palpatine's empire works to the film's advantage. If anything, it results in a more serious film, because the stakes here aren't some badass soldiers but a bunch of small whimsical aliens, fighting a military terror with all they've got.
Ewoks received hate because they defeated Emperor's finest elite legion.
Ewoks are the Jar Jar of RotJ, they're a scapegoat for people that actually had issues with a lot of other shit they didn't notice on a cognitive level and don't have the critical capacity to spell out
Jar Jar is more of a nuisance and I can see why people flipped their shit, even though you're somewhat right about that too.
But Ewoks serve for a good contrast and I'm glad they went with them.
I'm a person who despises camp and most comedy and I think they were a stroke of good luck for Lucas instead of Wookies.
If you don't like Return of the Jedi you suck wiener, this is pure science
Tfw you will never snort blow off Carrie Fischers perky breasts and ass all night in a North Hollywood motel.
She's dead, anon.
It's been 40 years...
I think if you're gonna kill Han in RotJ you have to make the opening a downer rescue where they find that he's already dead. That would completely change the movie. But making him do a heroic sacrifice at the end steals too much of the movie from the Vader ending, at least Han and Leia having an extremely shitty plot on the planet surface let Luke and Vader have all the spotlight.
Honestly, Star Wars sucks.
Explain this
it's a charming and fun movie, but Gary Kurtz' absence does show
To me, that quality combined with the more obvious melodrama and resolution surrounding the Skywalker story and Luke's arc is what makes it good. I don't see it working that well if it was all jovial or all grimdark.
Raiders of the Lost Ark premiered between Empire and Jedi, so some of that Indy spirit made it into Jedi, for better or worse
it makes sense why Lucas went for Ewoks instead of Wookies. The Holiday Special wasn't even 2 years old when writing of RotJ started
I liked it as a kid but when I watch the updated version with butchered Jabbas palace scene and everything else Im just wtf. Also look at the size of the explosion on this thing lmao. People wanna b***h about other SW but the whole thing is OTT and silly, and Im saying that as someone who likes it.
?t=261
>A New Hope
>The Empire Strikes Back
>Return of the Jedi
i hate how every word of the name doesn't start with a capital letter, unlike previous films
>this made boomers piss and shit their pants in anger
Probably because it's fricking nonsense if you are over the age of 6.
Star Wars is so shit and overrated. It was never a good, quality sci-fi space opera like Dune, and it was never a good, quality fantasy like LotR. It was just a mediocre, watered down knockoff without anything that made the former two good.
this
12 is the prime age to see these films
6
and only ANH and ESB if you crave for more
the prequels are so moronic, they shouldn't be viewed by anyone
george said 12
To be fair, that goes for Dune and LOTR as well. They're PG movies, as is the source material.
One is just fantasy and the other is hard sci-fi.
Philip K. Dick is for adults.
Star Wars's whole shtick is to be a fairy tale set in space. That's either going to appeal to you or not.
I never got the Dune comparisons. But feel free to post that god awful Dune "duel" as well while you're at it.
Dune is boring. Lotr is good (the books mostly)
What's so nonsensical about it? Intelligent chimps could theoretically create issues for real soldiers too.
lanklets fear the manlet uprising
>how are we doing?
>same as always
>that bad, huh?
Han had some good lines, even if Ford wasn't quite into it anymore
>puts his hands on hips
Vader is great in ANH
>retconning Luke/Leia to be siblings, make the older movies retroactively have incest
I can get over the other flaws of this movie besides this. What the actual frick was George's problem?
cheap narrative trick to create an illusion as if luke may fail on the death star thus making him disposable
It's the Char's Counterattack of Star Wars
Lucas is a kinoman but also a hack. Even before Star Wars he was a fricking moron, he literally ended American Grafitti with some text that states "lol they all died horribly some years later except this dude who became a writer". Just wtf is that man smoking, I FRICKING WANT SOME
After fighting with Kershner over Empire, Lucas hired a bunch of yes men to make Jedi. For example the switch from Wookies to Ewoks was his doing. Changing the leader of the attack on the Death Star from Han, who was supposed to die in the climax, to Lando, was his doing.
By the way Kershner was right is every case and he is the reason Empire is so good. Lucas is good at broad stroke ideas, but is terrible at making films. See the prequels for proof of that.
The Ewoks are a better idea than Wookies. At least an Ewok's death has some impact due to a person's innate paternal or maternal instinct of seeing something small suffer/die. It also made their struggle more pronounced.
If you actually imagine those same scenes with Wookies, you'll realize it wouldn't be much of an improvement, if any.
How about with small wookiees?
All these changes sound better t b h.
>Lucas thinks Ewoks are literally Vietnamese
>George Lucas: The Gungan battle was like the Charge of the Light Brigade, it illustrated a theme that repeats in my films — a non-technological society takin on a highly technological society. Like the Vietnam War, the people without the technology were the victors because they had the heart and soul. So it's another version of the Ewok battle.
>“Originally I started writing Star Wars because I couldn’t get Apocalypse Now off the ground,” Lucas says. “When I was doing Apocalypse Now it was about this totally insane giant technological society that was fighting these poor little people. They have little sticks and things, and yet they completely cow this technological power, because the technological power didn’t believe they were any threat. They were just a bunch of peasants. The original draft of Star Wars was written during the Vietnam War where a small group of ill-equipped people overcame a mighty power. It was not a new idea. Attila the Hun had overrun the Roman Empire; the American colonies had been able to defeat the British Empire. So the main theme of the film was that the Imperial Empire would be overrun by humanity in the form of these cute little teddy bears.”
Imagine what a shitshow Apocalypse Now would have been under his direction.
based george, ewoks are pleb filter
>based
>pleb filter
these words have lost all meaning with the redditor influx on this board
you literally posted the reason why it's a based parallel
moreover, george gains my respect for being a self aware american
no, you dumb homosexual
vietnamese had actual fricking weapons, including heavy weaponry, and they were slaughtering clueless conscripts en masse
ewoks are tiny teddy bears with fricking sticks and stones, going against fully armored, incomprehensibly advanced, professionally trained military, more so, the most elite troopers Palpatine had
false fricking equivalence
star wars homosexuals need to die
>the most elite troopers Palpatine had
lmao what? Where are you getting this from?
In general Stormtroopers were just grunt soldiers as well
literally from the movie, moron
>Everything that has transpired has done so according to my design. Your friends, up there on the sanctuary moon, are walking into a trap, as is your rebel fleet. It was I who allowed the alliance to know the location of the shield generator. It is quite safe from your pitiful little band. An entire legion of my best troops await them. Oh, I'm afraid the deflector shield will be quite operational when your friends arrive. [shows evil, condescending smile]
Ahh OK, yeah that's pretty moronic then
It's not. You're right that they're basic grunts. Palpatine was delusional and overconfident to the very end.
>Palpatine was delusional and overconfident
Because the Dark Side, amirite? He's EEEEEEVIIIIIL!
Pretending to be moronic still makes you moronic
>maybe if I continue repeating my dogma they'll agree with me
Just go back to wookipedia you stupid sw-Black person.
>NOOOOOO YOU CAN'T DISAGREE WITH MY SHITTY ARGUMENTS
>PLEASE GO BACK 🙁 PLEASE
>ewoks are tiny teddy bears with fricking sticks and stones, going against
So like Legolas in Lotr with his bow and arrow?
Kek, I won't make you seethe anymore.
But actual people hunted down fricking mammoths with "sticks". Tiny little critters who were your ancestors.
So yeah, you got filtered by focusing on aesthetics more than the actual point that is trying to be conveyed.
>hurr durr I'm moronic
There comes a point where you become the joke anon. We've clearly arrived at that point.
No counter argument?
It's just as moronic for a creature the size of Legolas to take down a mammoth by himself.
You're probably the type of person who thinks Wookies would've made a difference in the point that was trying to be made here, them being just as primitive as Ewoks.
At least they're not teddies, so suddenly it would make sense for you. What a midwit.
>So like Legolas in Lotr with his bow and arrow?
Legolas was a 2m tall super strong elf
ewoks are 50kg halflings with literal sticks going against fully trained, fully armored, professional military
end your life, sw gay
Legolas was a 5'9" manlet
You now realize the Trade Federation is the US and the Gungans are the arabs
>builds a massive shield generator to protect your building project
>project takes years to finish
>somehow be unaware of dumb critters all this time
you see the dark side of the force (space magic) literally made him stupid and arrogant unable to think critically, clouded his judgement!
at last I truly see.
I guess I got filtered and ewoks were based all along.
explain why they're not
Same reason why Jar-jar's antics during a deciding battle isn't based. It ruins the pacing and is an ill fit for whatever you've built up towards.
TPM suffers in similar fashion, because Lucas clearly was still thinking in those lines, and so we get Obi-wan and Qui-gon vs Darth Maul interlaced with lil ani doing spin2win in space and Jar-jar not 'aving a boomba - same as we get Luke duelling Vader and space battle interlaced with stupid teddy bears going unga bunga with slapstick humor inbetween.
What are trying to do here Lucas? Is it a comedy? Are we supposed to be at the edge of our seats as the fate of the universe is decided? Or are we supposed to sit and laugh while Luke is screaming in rage at Vader's suggestion his sister might turn?
Unironically it supposed to be arrogance that allows the Ewoks to defeat the stormtroopers. Luke literally says to the Emperor that arrogance will be his downfall.
The Emperor is the one who leaks to the Rebellion that the shield generator was on the moon, he calculated that the stormtroopers on the moon could defeat a small group of rebels but not the Ewoks.
Reminder that Star Wars is a franchise where killing random people is good and fun, you are supposed to cheer and clap about it, it's just a mindless spectacle, but killing genocidal maniac space hitler will lead you to the Dark Side, and you will become evil for the rest of your life if you do so! But killing Palpatine is ok, btw, cuz he is beyond redemption, ok? As long as you are not angry in the process of killing. Just kill with serenity.
The point is Luke can't kill his own father, how fricking dumb are you? He tried to kill him in TESB before he knew
You unironically make Star Wars look like Tolstoy by picking it apart in a moronic fashion like that.
absolutely everyone that worked on this film phoned in
The OT is overrated
Star Wars is only good for alien girl porn.
it's good for ewoks and jar jar making emasculated hipsters seethe
Let's be honest here, if the SW OT was released today people would think it's mid, people only think highly of it because there was no competition back then.
Have you seen how shit modern movies are? It would be a breath of fresh air honestly
it’s impossible to conceive of modern movies without star wars existing though. it influenced popular movies to an insane degree
Not to the degree that people imagine. It influenced cinema more in terms of tech than the whole "le first blockbuster" thing.
Blockbusters were a thing in the 30s too.
Star Wars, at it's core, influenced indie filmmakers more than it did studio heads. People are just fed up with popcorn movies and shift all the blame to Star Wars, without even knowing anything about why and how it was made, nor anything about Lucas and his takes on cinema that happen to coincide with the same people who like to bash him.
Never realised how awkward Lando looks in this poster
He's just thinking about how much Han's clothes look better on him
Wicket and his bros should have eaten you.
>Battle that marks the end of the war
>Fought in place named Endor
Bravo Lucas
>Good
Luke v Vader/Palps
most of Jabba's Palace
Admiral Ackbar and Lando kicking ass
>Bad
Ewoks
the dumb parts of Jabba's palace
Han and Lando become super nice, family friendly guys all of a sudden
Bubba Fett jobbing
Yes, hello? Is this the daily argue about Star Wars thread?
Yeah, it was a mess
>Jabba stuff was fun, but Luke's plan was what exactly?
>ANOTHER LE DEATH STAR
>"an entire LEGION" of the Emperor's best troops defeated by a bunch of fricking Care Bears. They should have been Wookies as originally planned
>final battle should have been on Coruscant
>They should have been Wookies as originally planned
How would that change anything? It's still sticks and stones.
>How would that change anything? It's still sticks and stones.
Wrong. The Wookie's main weapon is the Wookie Bow Caster (it looks like an autocrossbow but shoots a green laser ball)
Chewbacca had a gun you moron
Chewbacca was a lone Wookie. Why would you assume a tribe of native Wookies would all have bow casters?
>Why would you assume a tribe of native Wookies would all have bow casters?
Why wouldn't you? Han says some things that suggest Wookies have a reputation across the galaxy, meaning he's not the only one to travel around, there's probably plenty who live outside the home planet and the home planet is integrated with the rest of the solar system.
Wookiees can rip your arms off, you fricking moron. They are tall and strong. They can break your fricking neck and spine. Unlike 50 kilograms Teddy bears who can barely move. So braindead.
It doesn't matter. You're still assuming close combat would be a thing which ALREADY paints the legions of the empire as idiots, when they can just shoot the Ewoks/Wookies from a distance.
It would be "cooler" and that's what matters. Audiences haven't changed one iota.
>with this meandering piece of shit
It is better when you lived in the time that movie came out. Look how jaded you are. this shitty movie sparked emotions, shit you kids will first understand until you hold a bloody knife in your hands standing over the corps of one of your loved ones because your psycho parents but you on adhd meds all your life. suppressing all your feelings cause your bodies aren´t fit no more
Cry some more
anons, convince me of the worth of ESB+ROTJ - i like ESB but it is an incomplete story without ROTJ unlike ANH and ROTJ really brings down the whole series for me.
i've already spent the last few years trimming kino down from 5k movies to what you see here.
What's your favorite Star Wars music, mine's the one that goes DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN
Mine's the one where you're throwing a temper tantrum about a kid's movie
Luke vs Vader was fricking epic. Palpatine was a menacing motherfricker. Anakin sacrificing himself to save Luke is one of the best self sacrificing scenes ever put on film. And lukes green lightsaber perfectly contrasts his black tunic.
The only good Star Wars is LEGO Star Wars for the PS2
Imagine a world where Marcia never cucked George with the Skywalker Ranch windowwasher, and George didn’t rush/condense ROTJ after getting his spirit crushed. We could’ve had wookiees instead of Ewoks, Luke’s sister being a new character instead of Leia, and the rebels attacking Sheev's palace on Coruscant (then called Had Abbadon) instead of another Death Star. And if George was still in the mood, we could’ve gotten a 1986-1992 prequel trilogy that would’ve revolutionized visual effects before Terminator 2 and Jurassic Park.
>Luke’s sister being a new character
Would be kinda cool
>In J. W. Rinzler's posthumous final book, Howard Kazanjian: A Producer's Life, Lucas criticized the later Star Wars films. She revealed that upon seeing The Phantom Menace, she "cried because [she] didn't think it was very good," particularly criticizing the age gap between romantic leads Anakin Skywalker and Padmé Amidala.[36] On the sequel trilogy, she stated that Kathleen Kennedy and J. J. Abrams "don't get it", saying she was furious at the deaths of Han Solo and Luke Skywalker, as well as the lack of an explanation for Rey's powers.[37]
Absolutely based, I actually do think she was able to focus Lucas' vision into something good
I wonder if Marcia knew about George wanting 25 year old Indy in a relationship with 11 year old Marion
I get some people get filtered by the Ewoks, but how the frick do you get filtered by the Jabba parts?
It does drag on for too long tbf, too much of Luke acting smug and "all according to keikaku" until they finally blow everything up
Didn't mind the Ewoks. Thought the forest speeder chase went on a little too long. And why is the shield generator for a space station on another planet, shouldn't it be on the Death Star.
I agree with everything you said but Luke confronting Vader and the emperor more than made up for it. It was some of the best shit I’ve seen in sci-fi.
>meandering
?
I agree, the first time I saw it I couldn't believe how mediocre it was.
ROTJ is the third best Star Wars movie. ROTS sucks. No revisionist zoomer trash will change this fact.
>MUH RAYSHIELDS
>MUH NONCHARACTER CAUGHING ROBOT MAN
>MUH FIRST HALF THATS JUST EPISODE II AGAIN
>MUH DARTH PLAGIUS CHARACTER MOTIVATION SPEEDEUN
>MUH GIANT LIZARD
>MUH OBI WAN VS 1,000 DROIDS
>MUH ORDER 66 WHERE A FEW BLASTERS NOW KILL JEDI EASILY
>MUH THRONE ROOM FIGHT WHERE THEY FORGOT TO HIRE A CHOREOGRAPHER
>MUH EPIC LONG LIGHTSABER DUEL THATS 90% QUICK CUTS
>MUH CGI EMPEROR THROWING CGI CHAIRS AT CGI YODA
>MUH CHEWBACCA KNOWING YODA
>MUH NOOOOOOOOOO
>MUH SEQUEL TIER BINARY SUNSET MEMBERBERRY
seriously you have to be moronic to think that this movie is good, let alone better than anything OT
there is only one thing in IV that matters: blowing the thing up
there is only one thing in V that matters: Vader is dutch for father. Freaking dutch it is
I've never seen a more brainlet take in my life
You know what?
there is only one thing in I that matters: anakin pilot, because setup for that one line how good of a pilot he was[/spoilter]
there is only one thing in II that matters:[spoiler]clones
there is only one thing in III that matters:sheep's a real baddie[/spoiler]
the entire trilogy is kiddie trash, don´t kid yourself op
Honestly OP would be better off by accepting this as well. Although I wouldn't say it's trash per se.
Wizard of Oz is also kiddie shit but a pretty competent film. Certainly better than other attempts at kiddie trash.
The problem with autistic analysis like this is that everything becomes a plot hole at some point.
It's why Mauler can make 50 videos on why "superman could've killed ock in 1 punch" and shit like that.
It's a fundamental misunderstanding of cinematic lanugage.
yeah, most people learn as a kid that there’s no artificial gravity on flat spaceships and time is dramatically different on other planets. Once they do they stop overthinking shit like Star Wars
you fricking autists want to know why it’s Ewoks and not wookies? It’s for the very same reason Hobbits aren’t just rural men in LOTR. They’re physical representation of the underdog. People who others view as little and therefore insignificant. It’s really that fricking simple!
You're arguing with autists who are angry at Lucas for destroying their childhood with le hecking Ewoks. Anyone who is willing to spend this much energy on trying to cope with yet another wacky Star Wars alien race existing is in denial of the fact that it's a fantastical setting where pretty much anything goes.
throne room scenes are the best shit in all of star wars. watching 1-6 over a few days i really appreciated how consistent the emperor was in ROTS and ROTJ, which elevated the ROTJ payoff for me
Imagine being such a fricking pleb that you get filtered by RotJ.
OG trilogy is slightly better than the prequels
t.prequelgay
It's more visually appealing on account of not going so heavy on the CGI, and I think McQuarries' concept art is better than Doug's.
Otherwise, they're pretty similar.
OT purists can die in a fire for all I care. George made these films for himself and people who were on a similar wavelength. I respect his vision more than a shallow attempt to recreate some general appeal the OT had at the time of it's release.
This. I can disagree with certain decisions, but I can respect his vision and that he stuck to it.
Because the result was probably the most ambitious epic in human storytelling. That he sold to a soulless corporation that's run everything about it into the ground.
>George made these films for himself
He made the original sequels to finance Skywalker Ranch.
>I respect his vision more than a shallow attempt to recreate some general appeal the OT had at the time of it's release.
He made the prequels to capitalize on the resurgence in popularity Star Wars was having in the 90's.
>he stuck to it
He pivoted from Jar Jar and midichlorians the instant they became unpopular.
Jar Jar served his purpose. He was a fool character that was an audience proxy for children in scenes that Anakin wasn't involved in and the last character you'd expect to contribute to the resolution of the conflict. Him telling Padme that the Gungans are warriors is what led her to go back and ask them to fight. Sheev explicitly says he didn't see that one coming. He also adds to Qui-Gon's ability to see qualities in people that others couldn't see. Execution was annoying, sure. But I don't believe he shoved the character into the background because people hated him.
>midichlorians
Sheev mentions them in ep3.
>He made the prequels to capitalize on the resurgence in popularity Star Wars was having in the 90's.
This, they're as shallow as the sequels. He wanted to tell a story about his own lame views on Bush and the Patriot Act but dressed it up as Star Wars.
>Otherwise, they're pretty similar.
They aren't similar at all
>I respect his vision more than a shallow attempt to recreate some general appeal the OT had at the time of it's release.
bruh the entire prequel trilogy was him sperging over mocap and cgi so he could be the “groundbreaking technologically advanced director” again like in 1976. Same can be said about his edited films hitting theaters again in the 90’s