Finally finished the last seasons of Adventure Time over the weekend. Would've been nice for Finn to have a girlfriend. Didn't have to be Bubbles or Marcie, but just someone for him would have been nice.
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Finn is a Greek hero, and most Greek heroes don't get happy endings. But their actions will echo for eternity.
The moment people start looking at Finn as a Greek hero, there'll be less pain.
>The moment people start looking at Finn as a Greek hero, there'll be less pain.
Uh oh
>Temporarily driven mad by the goddess Hera, Heracles kills his wife and children.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks that was Finn's son.
what
morons want finn to suffer as much as possible, so they invent these atrocious headcanons that have no basis in what happens in the show, but aren't technically DISproven by anything, so they can still insist it's what happened.
it appears they've moved on from thinking that was HW, since she shows up in the same universe on Prismo's TV in the next episode, and are now (delusionally) saying "oh, this is finn & hw's bastard lovechild that she abandoned in the heart of Ooo & Finn killed him because he's a bloodthirsty killer with no morals ever since Jake died."
i fricking hate these lowlife scumbags so much.
You gotta admit that a green bear wearing a mask around where HW lives is kinda suspicious. Plus it's got Finn's eyes.
the rantings of madmen
Reminder that Fionna is proof that if Princess Bubblegum or Huntress Wizard got BLACKED in front of Finn then Finn would cuck out to her pathetically and simp for her every choice and still do whatever she says like a cuck and say how brave and amazing they are to frick other men in front of him
Finn is canonically like this now
What do you mean? Is PB getting blacked by Marceline or something of the sort? What moronic headcanon is this?
Marceline is an honorary white person.
You can tell when they are upset because then they start spamming the thread with these non sequitur posts going into depth about their cuck fantasies or how Finn deserves to die alone. It's all really obvious bait and it annoys me people keep falling for it and replying to it.
exactly. if anyone here deserves to be called a finncel, it's the morons who hate him
Who here has been hating on Finn? Is your bar for hate that they dont think Finn should have a harem or that PB was the best ship?
No, the people who don't think Finn should have a Harem or don't think Finn x PB was the best ship usually don't hate Finn. The people who "hate" Finn are either trolls trying to bait Finncels into throwing a tantrum for their own amusement, or Finncels themselves projecting how they think the writers see Finn into these kinds of falseflags so they can feel better about their coping and seething being "justified".
Ah, I see.
Is there really a reason, an obvious reason that Jake died early before Finn? I mean it doesn't feel real to the whole plot or if we move it aside from the actual theme of AT, like what causes Jake's death specifically?
Did Muto and the fricking gang decide its not worthy to bring John DiMaggio bc he's right-wing left-wing bullshit?! Or is it out of budget, might be a waste since they want to focus on lesbian shit with PB & Marcy more?
Teenage Finn was around 15 to 20 if we assume, and adult Finn around 30-40 in hbomax plus fionacake, surely Jake should be alive and well around in that range unless I forget something from mid season about his biological alien father or some shit.
How many Greek Heroes got declared totally undesirable by all their love interests then continued to slave away in their name for the rest of their pathetic cucked lives?
Only one I can possibly think of was Menelaus but even he got Helen back in the end and they lived happily ever after. No such chance with Bubblegum.
I see him more as Endymion or Orion due to his relationship with HW
It is a fricking crime they didnt show Finn happily together with HW in F&C, she could have had more screentime being in the bar with Finn.
Finn is not entitled to a happy ending
He's the main character
No he’s not, it’s called adventure time, not Finn and Jake
His name's in the lyrics of the theme. Stop being dense.
So what? In the CAWM, shermy and Beth have their names in their own song. This is also apparent in the miniseries.
And what part of that says that he needs to be in a relationship in order to be happy? Stop using him as a self insert, it's fricking pathetic.
His life in F & C and together again was not that happy, and i'm not saying he has to be in a relationship, it just would've been 10x more worth it than what we got.
Finn and jake are the main characters and it's stated in the pitch bible and every official source of this show out there. What is wrong with you?
It’s called adventure time, not Finn mertens time. He does not deserve to have a love life simply because you self insert as him.
He's the main character, i don't what to tell you. Just because a character's name isn't on the title doesn't make him not a mc, especially since 90% of the episode in the fricking show revolve around finn and jake. I'm not saying he "deserves" a love life, it just would've been better than him being a pussy about jake's death most of his time as an adult and being alone.
>self-insert
If I wanted to self-insert i would've watched fanart.
Finn was always a pussy crybaby homosexual. Even Joshua would tease him about being a giant pussy that cries. FP made fun of him and said his element was water because he cried like a b***h for not having a love life
>Even Joshua would tease him about being a giant pussy that cries.
That's because Joshua only knew him when he was a literal baby. He didn't know humans take longer to grow up than dogs, and Joshua probably died when Finn was still very young.
Finn would get teased by everyone for being a sissy crybaby in the earlier seasons. There was an entire episode of him trying to get over his embarrassment issues
>Finn is a Greek hero
You're right, he should have gotten fricked up the ass
Muto will make sure it will happen in the next season of F&C
Finn and Huntress Wizard were hanging out more in the last couple seasons, I think their friendship blossoms into romance
They were on kissing terms by the end of the series.
She also made it clear she's not gonna be tied down to him and is free to frick around with other men she likes more than Finn like Forest Spirit
>Other men she likes
Like? HW is an anti social sperg and Finn is pretty much the only guy around that she is into outside of Forest Dude who no way gay'd her. Finn and HW are basically Geralt and Yennifer (only with HW being way less of a bawd than Yen). They love each other but will still both frick off soing their own escaoades and adventures. Then they'll run inti each other every other adventure and having kinky sex on the back of a mythical beast or some shit.
Shitty consolation prize tbqh besides the fact that they make the relationship ambiguous
I love how the goalposts always move.
>Why do the writers absolutely hate Finn? They didn't even give him a love interest by the end of the series, if they just did that then I'd be happy
>No, Huntress Wizard doesn't count because... she was a consolation prize! Shut up!
And you even see them claim the same thing with Flame Princess apparently being a consolation prize/cheap replacement for PB. It's pretty clear that they aren't actually interested in Finn getting a happy ending or a conclusion to his love life, they are just bitter Fubblegum or Finnceline shippers who waifugayged either character and are in their seething phase over the two of them getting becoming lesbians. Which is honestly very pathetic.
Why is the boy wearing shorts and girl long pants? Is OP a homosexual? Does he like sucking dicks and slurping cum?
Yes.
While in "Flute Spell" Huntress Wizard seemed to be reluctant to the idea of getting in a relationship, in the later episode "The Wild Hunt" the two of them reaffirmed their love for each other and kissed. Then, a bit later at Finn's birthday she was a guest and brought him a literal heart as a gift.
Additionally, Finn and Huntress Wizard's genderbent alternate selves were implied to have gotten together in some form at the end of their spin off/sequel series. Finn's Farmwold self also had married someone, and one of his kids has Human Huntress Wizard's same eye and hair color implying the mother was likely the Farmworld equivalent of her.
So even if they didn't end the series with Finn looking at the camera and saying "Huntress Wizard is my girlfriend, guys". You can pretty easily infer from context clues that the two of them are in some kind of romantic relationship even after flute spell. As for why the relationship isn't as apparent as say his relationship with flame princess was? Probably because after the drama with that ship, they didn't want to give so much focus on Finn's love life anymore, so the times they did highlight it they didn't go much into detail.
he bred huntress wizard and had cute children
Sorry bucko, the show was hijacked by lesbians. Not even a good consolation prize for Finn.
Throughout the show, Finn matured a lot as a person, emotionally and spiritually.
You don't need to reward the protagonist with a girl. Like YOU DID GOOD, HERE'S A GIRLFRIEND. That would cheapen the entire point of his character arc. Like, was he was only doing it to get a girl? Frick that.
That's why I hated that shitty 3D Peanuts Movie. Charlie was a good little boy and his reward at the end of the movie was the redhead girl. Stupid.
Finn improved. He became a chad. He learned to empathize better, he learned to be stronger, and be a rock for his friends.
A lot of anons hated that he broke up with Flame Princess. But he learned a valuable lesson from that. To be honest and not be manipulative. Finn at the end of the show is a lot more mature and empathetic than he was at the beginning.
The more I think about it the more I think Adventure Time is the perfect show.
At the end of the show, he can get any girl he wants. In Fionna and Cake, we see he's become a total chad. He can get any girl he wants. And he's still willing to help his friends.
>You don't need to reward the protagonist with a girl
Yes you do, that's what love interests are for. That's what they have ALWAYS been for. Frick you trying to "humanise" their shit and pretend the girl is interesting as a dyke, they are not and they never will be, they are there to symbolise the hero's achieving happiness after they slay the mosnter.
>You don't need to reward the protagonist with a girl
>Yes, you do.
Most heroes don't get that. King Arthur died at the Battle of Camlann, Beowulf died fighting a dragon, Achilles died via arrow, Thor died fighting the serpent.
Heroes are about action and courage. Fricking Love interest are secondary, or not the important thing.
King Arthur died fighting his bastard son and was already legitimately married by that time (French fanfiction gracefully ignored), Beowulf married Queen Hygd to succeed the throne as the new Geatish King, Achilles was gay with Patroclus, Thor had a wife and family from the very start of his mythos
isn't most of arthurian legend fictional
>arthurian legend fictional
The French ones? Definitely just retold tales. The amount of love interest and amour in the French tales were numerous, King Arthur had a yandere fairy in one tale, and Merlin got cuck by a simp knight. The Celtic ones? Eh, more of a folk tale but dubious at best.
The love interests aren't even the main point of their story. King Arthur (If we're talking about the Le Morte D'Arthur) was more of a king's battle against the darkness (The Celtic version was more straight forward), Beowulf's story was more on fighting monsters and little spent on his love plus courage, Achilles was literally about his rage, and Thor's mythology depends on the poems but his love interests aren't the main thing.
It's about the battle of heroes, not the love interests. The love interests aren't the main thing to a hero, it's a secondary or nil. The main core of a hero is courage, that either ends good or bad. The only good ending to a greek hero is Odysseus but that is just fanfiction, just like the Aenid.
my point is, Finn learned from his mistakes, in love and in life, and became a more desirable man.
we've seen what he becomes. He's probably drowning in pussy.
relegating female characters as rewards for the heroes is fricking boring. I don't give a frick about feminism or any of that shit. It's just more interesting narratively for female characters to be actual people and not just sex objects to be won.
He had his chance with FP, and he blew it. And he learned from it, and grew as a person.
By the end of the show there's a lot more at stake than romance.
We got so many episodes of Finn soul-searching, finding himself and learning to be content with who he is.
By the end, he is whole, just who he is. Why does he need some b***h to suck his wiener?
That's pussy shit. Like you need a b***h to make you whole. That's not the fricking point of the story.
Finn became a stoic chad and you're complaining because Flame Princess and Princess Bubblegum don't want to bone him.
Who cares. Grow up.
simping for Bubblegum and Flame Princess and obeying their every word like a spineless gay doesn't make you a chad, it makes you a spineless cuck who fetches Bubblegum/Gumball their lube while they're fricking black guys and bossing you around because you have 0 b***hes and will do whatever they order you
if this is your opinion then I'm convinced you haven't actually watched the show.
Or if you have you didn't pay attention
and/or didn't understand it.
Finn is a talented warrior, he wants to protect his homeland. That was his goal during the end
>his homeland
You mean grass lands? Or tree house? Or ooo in general?
>he wants to protect his homeland. That was his goal during the end
No it wasn't. He wanted to prevent a needless war from happening by stopping the conflict between gumbald and Bubblegum in the most peaceful way possible.
The girl is a human being anon, not an object given as a reward. Sometimes heroes end up with wives, sometimes they dont. The fun part of storytelling is that you are not determined to tell a story either way. For every story where the hero doesnt have a girl there is one where he does. If you prefer the former then just look for stories where that is the case.
>The girl is a human being anon, not an object given as a reward.
Historically that often isn't the case.
>You don't need to reward the protagonist with a girl. Like YOU DID GOOD, HERE'S A GIRLFRIEND.
But that's exactly what happened.
they're eachother's love interest. if you ever dated you'd understand why that matters
If the show cared about diversity and progressivism it would simply end with a throuple. But since it was overtaken by conservative, reactionary man haiting feminists it had to end the way it did.
Despite its popularity ffm is not allowed
make two of them guys then its kosher
It's allowed where it is allowed. But I guess such is life in the land of the free.
I was like who is that in the middle then remembered twitter learned marceline is apparently black kek
>He became a chad. He learned to empathize better, he learned to be stronger, and be a rock for his friends
He learned to be a cuck who simps for Bubblegum's and Fp's every command even after she cucks him and he becomes an incel.
Finn's so pathetic he'd continue kissing Pb's ass even if she got Blacked and still thought to condescend to him and boss him around like her slave.
Fionna's excitement for her friends was so cute. Frick I love madeleine martin's voice.
I'm sure your excitement for watching your exes get blacked are just as "cute", bro
rent free
For all the blacked memes you spout, it's your mind that has been buck broken. Cuckoldry infests your every thought. You can't even talk about an innocuous cartoon made for children without your mind wandering to your true desires.
You're a cuck. Admit it. I won't judge you.
>Finn; Fionna are canonically willing cucks and canonically get excited at the thought that Bubblegum is fricking other guys and will never love them back
>"N-No bro actually you're the cuck"
Sure thing, bro.
you know you're only proving my point right
you know you have no argument right?
This right here is Finn and Pb x anyone other than him. So far you've only seethed and failed to disprove this reality.
actually that's fionna
How the frick is someone a cuck when they are not even in a relationship? Are you being currently cucked by all the women in the world anon? Also, its just very interesting how your fantasy about PB was that she was being blacked. Why was that the very first thing you thought of? Are you referring that she is getting together with a non white woman?
She’s great. Her voice totally gets across that (wo)man-child Finn energy without being annoying.
>he becomes an incel.
He literally had lines of women wanting to make out with him, including the water nymphs. Shut the frick up already, we get it, you self insert as in Finn and feel slighted because him not getting PB feels like you not getting PB. It's been years already, move the frick on
>he's a cuck
he's a knight bro
he's keeping the kingdom safe
you would know if you were a real man
>he's all about adventure
>the only time he was all about pussy was when he was a creep weirdo
> You don't need to reward the protagonist with a girl.
You don’t, but it’s the nice thing to do.
Arbitrarily deciding to turn Finn into a manipulative dipshit and then deciding to stop him from being one for no reason isnt growth. 99 percent of people arent manipulative
>99 percent of people arent manipulative
If only this were true.
maybe, but his biggest failing was him being a total bottom simp for all the powerful women around him. learning to be on his own without needing to define his existence around a relationship with a woman is the healthiest end-point he could have reached
bittersweet that the position of maximum personal growth was never what he really wanted, but still
This didn't age that well, since Finn in Fionna and Cake was built more like the one on the left anyway.
Bubblegum is old news, anon. Finn hadn't been interested in her for years. By the time PB and Marcy started kissing it was literally the end of the series and Finn had already had other relationships since then. If you are gonna try to make cuck memes you could at least use someone like Flame Princess and Cinnamon Bun, but even that was ages ago since the end of the series. You can't be cucked out of something you don't even want.
>Finn had already had other relationships since then
Which were all (badly) trying to compensate for Bubblegum rejecting him and declaring him 100% undesirable to her, which all failed too.
Maybe Flame Princess was, but by the time he was getting with Huntress Wizard any feelings for PB had long since passed. It's pretty normal when you remember Finn was a kid when he was crushing on PB. For him back then sure his feelings would have felt like true love until the end of time, but as most childhood crushes go it was just a thing in passing.
the only reason it was a thing in passing was because Bubblegum rejected him. If she reciprocated or at least didn't act like he's an unlovable total loser who is beneath her and not even worth a chance with her, it would have been sustained
She rejected him because he was a kid. Finn crushing on PB was the equivalent of a kid crushing on his cute young middle/highschool teacher. And PB literally never acted like Finn's an "unlovable total loser" since when she saw Finn and Flame Princess were able to make their relationship work she accepted them together.
Then just wait a few years? Frick's sake it's not like he's a stupid little baby, he's been saving her ass and saving her entire kingdom singlehandedly since S1, he's not undateable just because he's somewhat younger than her, imagine being that egotistic she'd think herself out of his league in that way because of his date of birth.
That's just how it is. Even if a student could in theory just wait 5 or so years until they are old enough where the relationship with their teacher wouldn't be illegal, it's still a faux pas. PB isn't egotistical because she saw Finn more like a younger brother than a lover, she clearly cared about him a lot platonically. If some young underage boy started crushing on you, would you be egotistical to tell him that you don't have those feelings for him and he should try dating someone his own age?
It's pretty egotistical because she pretty clearly makes it out that he doesn't get a chance with her. At that point don't boss him around anymore, if you think yourself better than him and out of his league because you're older than you go save yourself form the crazy ice man coming to rape you tomorrow, don't ask the "younger brother" to do shit for you you egotistic b***h.
Finn wanted to be a hero, and she was his mentor trying to guide him down the right path. Your teacher wasn't egotistical because they attempted to do the same with you. Finn didn't need to serve bubblegum as a "knight", he just wanted to because he idealised the idea of being a knight. We even see, when the Ice King disguises himself as the "Nice King", Finn and Jake happily pledge themselves to serving him until they discover his true identity. When the King of Ooo takes over the Candy Kingdom via election, Finn and Jake also pledge themselves to serve him, and that's also when they realise that they don't really like the King of Ooo since he's kind of a wad, so they make the conscious choice to just not serve him anymore.
she wasn't a mentor, and she wasn't a teacher, she is a princess and a damsel in distress.
If she thought herself anything higher than that and anywhere out of Finn's league, then save yourself, your "student" shouldn't need to babysit you if they're supposedly beneath you.
She was a mentor, and she literally did teach him things at times. She guided him on quests to do the right thing, fighting evil and protecting innocents. Just because he also saved her from her stalker doesn't really change that. Presumably she's had methods of dealing with the Ice King on her own in the past before Finn was born, but since Finn actively goes out of his way to save her she probably doesn't need to escape on her own. Especially since Finn clearly enjoys doing it and learns more about being a hero from it.
>Presumably she's had methods of dealing with the Ice King on her own in the past before Finn was born, but since Finn actively goes out of his way to save her she probably doesn't need to escape on her own
Lmao frick off you pathetic dykeshill. The first time Finn and PB met was in the pilot, where she was absolutely 100% helpless to do anything about Ice King raping her, where Finn was already a self-made hero who saved her, and where she was 100% in his debt.
Pb never taught jack-shit to Finn, Pb relied entirely on Finn. “You’re too young to ever stand a chance with me, I’m higher in a social heirarchy so I’m like a teacher and you’re like a lowly student who is beneath my worthiness” doesn’t work when from the day they met Bubblegum was just a narcissistic but weak damsel and Finn was a self-made hero. Social heirarchies like “student/teacher” don’t stand when the younger one taught themself and the older one is reliant on the younger one babysitting them and not the other way around. If anything Finn outranks Bubblegum because he’s not a useless weak b***h with an inflated ego who is only still alive because everyone else coddles to her.
This is also evidence of the PB age retcon. Nu AT fans really want us to believe that PB could hold her own against the Ice King for hundreds of years before Finn showed up and only acted like a damsel in distress with him to make him an obedient servant. People really need to get it in their heads that none of this shit was thought of beforehand, AT writers just make up stuff as they go along to make the previous stuff seem more “deep and complex”. In reality though, it just comes off as dumb bullshit.
Age retcon nonwithstanding, both Ice King and PB are older than Finn. Either the kidnappings started happening when Finn was old enough to be a hero, or someone else was saving PB and the other princesses before Finn & Jake entered the picture. It was probably Billy who beat the crap out of Ice King and saved PB before he became old and depressed.
Forget about Jake? The Pilot established he was in his 30. Sure Jake's lazy but he'd still be saving his galpal Rainicorn
>Either the kidnappings started happening when Finn was old enough to be a hero
This seems by far by far the most likely. Pb and Ice King had zero history spoken before the pilot, and pilot Bubblegum acts clearly like this is the first time she's been kidnapped and not just a regular occurrence.
And beyond that even if we include the immortality retcon, Pb also has no knowledge of Ice King's mental state at first, yet is also apparently girlfriends with Marceline in the past? If she knew both Marceline and Ice King before Finn was around then she'd be acquainted with their pasts together
She literally does teach him though he's seen in a classroom getting taught by her.
Also the hero book she told him about.
That's called grooming, anon.
when you're a 1000+ year old immortal candy elemental, every relationship you have leans into grooming territory.
Unless... it's with another 1000+ year old
yeah that's probably why she got together with Marceline.
Unfortunately Bubblegum is just a poor 800 year old child groomed by an ancient red sucker.
She told me she was 818 at the time, honest!
And actually was like 13 at best.
Marceline seems younger there too. I think it's just a style thing, or like a way of conveying their "youth" even though they're the same age biologically.
bubblegum kept her body's age close to marcy's becuase she never moved on
they planned the lesbian thing from nearly the beginning
Phineas and Ferb got away with a relationship like that, why couldn’t Adventure Time.
They kinda did, and kinda didn't. Since it happened right at the end and they didn't dwell on it much, and people still complain about it to this day. Sort of like how Bubbline was for this place.
>the jailbait wait
Even when he would grow up eventually, PB met him and knew him as a little kid while she was already an adult (even before the bajillion years old retcon). That's just weird out of universe, and she was never interested in him like that anyway.
>weird
Lesbians are also weird, just because it makes you uncomfortable doesn't mean it's wrong or a bad storytelling
>fighting evil and protecting innocents
>bubblegum
lmao, that's the stuff he learned from Joshua not pink hitler.
>lmao, that's the stuff he learned from Joshua not pink hitler.
Joshua got him a head start on fighting monsters, but Joshua wasn't exactly a chivalrous knight, he was a thrill seeking treasure hunter, as evidenced by all the demons he pointlessly pissed off stealing their shit or trapping them. You have to remember that the majority of PB's more sinister aspects were unknown to Finn during his younger years. Back then she'd legitimately be guiding him towards being heroic, regardless of her own weird creepy surveillance or candy experiments. PB's end goals were good, but she was immortal in her own pursuits of it. But she wasn't guiding Finn to be like her, she was guiding him to be a hero in his own way. When she did seemingly cross a line in front of him, he was willing to stand up to her, like that time he thought she falsely imprisoned Ice King.
>wasn't exactly a chivalrous knight
And do you think that Bubblegum was?
>demons he pointlessly pissed off stealing their shit or trapping them
He was using basic DnD morality just like Finn at the beginning of the show. And for him all demons were evil so suck it.
>he was willing to stand up to her
Except when he got onetis after FP dumped him and was willing to sell out rattleballs, ignore lemon people and generally became much more passive.
>And do you think that Bubblegum was?
No, she was a leader whose aims were on the side of good. Her actions weren't good, but her end goals were. Finn was the Chivalrous one, and she was guiding his good natured chivalry towards doing good for good's sake. She didn't need to train him to be an evil scientist.
.He was using basic DnD morality just like Finn at the beginning of the show. And for him all demons were evil so suck it.
No, Joshua was a lot more murderhobo-y (not full blown but he had a foot in it) while Finn was more like a devout paladin. Remember he literally refused to squish an ant because it wasn't evil. Finn definitely liked to adventure for fun, but he was very strongly driven by his convictions to protect innocents, a conviction PB ultimately shared with him and wanted to cultivate.
>just because it makes you uncomfortable doesn't mean it's wrong or a bad storytelling
But why PB specifically instead of the love interest he was given at the end in Huntress Wizard? It was established early on that she was too old for him to pursue romantically. And when Finn accepted that, he had FP who was his own age. And near the end of elementals, Finn realized that he now saw PB as a cool friend than an object of desire. Why establish that PB is too old for Finn for so long, only to dismiss the blatant age gap and sweep it under the rug at the end of the series? That's pretty bad storytelling to walk back on something you've established early on and had the protagonist already accept.
>And when Finn accepted that
Wait shit, forgot that he saw FP as a rebound when he got depressed and Jake played matchmaker, the acceptance came later on.
>or at least didn't act like he's an unlovable total loser
she didn't. she just values him as a friend and you see that in Pajama Wars. stop projecting your cucked life onto Finn
She literally mocks him calling him silly when he asked if she'll give him a chance again, then told him to get out of the castle.
>She literally mocks him calling him silly
She was an adult again and he was 13 you fricking ignoramus. Stop self persecuting
and? He's a hero and she's a big-headed damsel. He's not silly for wanting to keep a relationship going that they already had after he's more than proven himself dependable.
anon, finn is a little kid in the first few seasons and most of the time only succeeds because of Jake. PB has a gigantic arsenal of things much much deadlier than Finn and most of the time she uses him to deal with the ice king, basically a non threat. I dont know why you think people should owe romance to others if they do nice things for them. Oh wait, is it because you are an incel?
In that Anon's defense I'm a guy who has been a hero to a few girls and got laid for it so I think there might be something to it.
That is perfectly fine anon. The problem is that this other anon thinks PB owes Finn a relationship. Which is something Finn himself would definitely not agree on.
>"i want him to have a girlfriend"
>"doesn't have to be PB or Marceline"
>posts art of Marceline kissing Finn
Ok Finncel
If you introduce a character with ambitions of romance, leaving those ambitions unfulfilled at the end of the series is an improper way to resolve the character.
The counterpoint is, when you introduce into a character ambitions of romance that objectively made the show worse, you'd be proper to steer away from continuing to focus on it.
But the show continued to focus on it, just not with him, which is the worst of both worlds.
It didn't actually focus on it that much with PB and Marcy. Just a couple episodes and some parts of Stakes, really. I think the reason they felt better focusing on Pb x Marcy over Finn's romance was because there was less drama dragging it down. Finn had went through his stuff with PB, then his stuff with Flame Princess, but all the drama of Bubbline had happened off screen. We had not had to sit through so many episodes of either of them getting over their break ups like we did with Finn, so comparatively their relationship would feel "fresh" to most audiences (the ones not on this site who don't hate dykes) compared to Finn's romantic woes.
And it isn't like they dropped Finn's love life entirely, he still got with Huntress Wizard they just didn't want to focus on the actual romantic drama involved after Flute Spell, so they were just kinda together kissing and shit and not making a big deal out of it.
>Finn had went through his stuff with PB, then his stuff with Flame Princess, but all the drama of Bubbline had happened off screen.
This sort of thing makes it all feel like a double standard. With Finn, it has to be complicated, there has to be this whole ass commentary of how you can't always get what you want and how there's much more to life than simply getting with a girl, which is a fine stance to take, but feels unfair at best and downright petty at worst when other characters aren't portrayed to have that conflict.
Finn couldn't touch FP without getting burned, and this was supposed to be a major part of why this relationship was ultimately doomed to fail, supposedly feeding in to how they were opposites in lifestyles. Meanwhile, Cinnamon Bun, right after they broke up, acquires the flame shield first introduced in Incendium with no sign that it ever runs out or that it's even a problem to keep up.
PB and Marceline were bitter exes, again, supposedly, but just one on-screen time they hang out with Finn is enough to get them back on track together. Hell, he was even absent or straight up written out of later episodes featuring the two (egregiously so in Sky Witch) just so they can have time alone. Almost as though Finn's presence was somehow a threat to their rekindled relationship even though he was literally the reason they even got on speaking terms again.
Yeah, it's deranged to think any of these things in a vacuum as malicious. But summed together, it starts showing a pattern. No one struggles like Finn because no one is put in a position to struggle like Finn.
That's because Finn is the main character. He is the audience point of veiw who goes through the most development and learns the most from his mistakes. He's also literally growing up over the show, and growing up comes with mistakes and lessons. PB and Marcy comparatively are older and not the main characters, so they don't actually have to go through nearly as much stuff. They obviously still do have to learn some stuff, like PB to stop being so controlling and Marcy had to open up to others etc. But it's very obvious that the main character who is literally growing up would have to go through the most of this sort of thing. To expect otherwise would be ridiculous.
>Meanwhile, Cinnamon Bun, right after they broke up, acquires the flame shield first introduced in Incendium with no sign that it ever runs out or that it's even a problem to keep up.
This was just bad writing. They could have handwaved it away by saying "The flame shield spell only works on magical creatures, it doesn't work on normie humans" and that would be that. But in the end it doesn't matter much, it's just a stupid oversight.
>Hell, he was even absent or straight up written out of later episodes featuring the two (egregiously so in Sky Witch) just so they can have time alone.
This is because of cast bloat. If you already have two main characters you want to be focusing on in an episode (in this case PB and Marcy) having another main character there who doesn't actually contribute to the story should probably be cut out to make the script cleaner. If Finn was in Sky Witch, what would he even do? Just hang around? It isn't like Adventure Time wasn't afraid to occasionally have episodes outside of the main character's perspective, it wasn't Steven Universe after all.
>If Finn was in Sky Witch, what would he even do?
It's funny you ask that, I actually was in the process of thinking up an alternative way of writing Sky Witch that actually reasonably involves Finn and Jake.
>The two would find her taking some of their gold for rent, so when they offer to buy out the treehouse, she mentiones that Hambo is the only thing actually worth the exchange, and asks the boys for help getting it back from Maja
>F&J call PB for help breaching the castle's magic defenses, who at this point in the story is still not in completely restored terms with Marcy, they come up with some lie about why they're after Maja, PB goes along with it because Maja's been harming her citizens or whatever
>So they go to the magic castle, Maja at some point just outside taunts Marceline about her doll
>PB starts going off about how Marcy's making a big fuss over something easily replacable, until Finn notices that it's upsetting Marcy and cuts her off, reasuring her that they'll get Hambo back, and pulls PB away for a bit of a heart-to-heart about sentimental shit (probably bringing up the old band shirt)
1/2
>They head inside, and PB, mentally noting that Maja seemed frail when she last terrorized the Candy Kingdom, pulls a baseball bat from Finn's backpack and splits without elaborating
>Before the other three can protest, Crabbit comes in and they end up fighting
>After they win, the trio try to look for PB when Maja shows up and stuns them
>As she gloats, PB sneaks from behind and whacks her upside the head with the bat
>"Back in my kingdom, we honor the exchange of goods for legal tender. But you stole something from my friend, which means I don't have to honor you." *spits on Maja*
>She tosses Marcy Hambo, who gets all emotional over the reunion, then bashfully thanks PB
>On the way out, Marceline hands over the deed to the treehouse to Finn and Jake
>They ask why, since PB seemed to be the one that actually got her ragdoll back, she responds that she'd never get as far as asking her without them, and as much as she treasures Hambo, she treasures the boys more, especially for helping her close old wounds
Ain't perfect, just kinda popped into my mind within the past week, but I think the four complement each other more than just PB and Marcy on their own. This show definitely could've used more episodes highlighting that dynamic.
I mean, they still don't really contribute much to the plot, outside of the stuff you introduced like the deed. Which clearly wasn't the focus of the story they were trying to tell.
A brief summary like this usually forgoes most gags, fight choreography, or nuance, of which there are fewer opportunities with fewer characters. But even setting that aside, my main deal was having Finn help PB see things from Marcy's perspective, during a time in the girls' development where they'd be hard pressed to see eye to eye about anything. When I saw her on a tangent about how Raggedy Princess would serve as a replacement Hambo, my only thought was that Finn wouldn't let it get this bad between them, or at least have it fester for long. Just as he was a mediator in What Was Missing, I would've liked him to continue taking that role. Even though the practical need for it reduces as PB and Marcy become friends again, he'd still be monumental in helping them get there at all.
Sky Witch was about PB and Marcy reconnecting. There was no reason for Finn to be there. He would've just gotten in the way of the story they were trying to tell.
Of course. Who needs a third wheel around proud lesbians?
For that episode, yeah, he would've been a third wheel. It would've been nice to have more episodes with all the gang, but not by cramming Finn into Sky Witch.
Again, fine in isolation. But if there's never an instance afterwards where Finn matters for the two's development, or more universally, never a point where they even just hung out with Finn and Jake, it calls into question why he even mattered in the first place in What Was Missing. His absence started becoming too convenient.
I don't think it's a tall order to ask for the main character to have some significant development throughout the show with each major character. If the show was going to lead with Finn having an impact between them, it wouldn't kill the showrunners to check up on their relations once in a while. Hell, he never acknowledges that they're dating.
There are still plenty of times PB and Marcy hang with Finn and Jake. What Was Missing got them talking to each other again, but ultimately it's up to them to rebuild their friendship.
>Hell, he never acknowledges that they're dating.
He knew there was something going on, but I don't think they were officially a thing until the end.
>There are still plenty of times PB and Marcy hang with Finn and Jake.
Perhaps in a superficial sense. I can probably list off the top of my head anytime it'd vaguely count.
>A brief moment in Time Sandwich.
>The very end of Red Starved.
>Stakes, which, there's a fair amount, but they're too preoccupied with the whole vampire outbreak to have decent quality time together.
>The Music Hole, kinda sorta. Neither Finn nor Jake really interact with Marceline directly.
>Seeing Finn off at the beginning of Islands.
>Bonnibel Bubblegum, though only as framing for the actual plot of the episode.
>Seventeen, technically.
>Maybe a bit in Come Along With Me? At most they'd just be prepping for war with Gumbald.
Eight times sounds like plenty, but the total screentime of their actual group interaction after Sky Witch discounting Stakes is a minute or two at best. While I will give you that there was still plenty between PB and Finn and Jake (especially Finn), at that point, there was barely anything for Marceline and Finn being in the same zip code apart from the above. At most for that, you get a tiny bit in Betty and in Marcy & Hunson.
Maybe you're satisfied with the mere implication that they hang out a lot. I'd rather they use that idea for actual creative output.
>I'd rather they use that idea for actual creative output
But there was a slight chance that even the ruined Marceline and inconsistent Finn would make the lesbian OTP look worse. You don't seem to know how possesive and jealous the most rabid of yurigays tend to be. And yuri shippers that came from the fanbase were the main storyboarders for Marceline and Bubblegum during the late phase of the show, the most toxic kind of yurishitters.
Which storyboarders? Hanna K was hired because of a comic she drew. AFAIK she wasn't a fan beforehand. Sam Alden hadn't seen an episode.
>Hanna K was hired because of a comic she drew.
Did she ever move to California or has she been working from Sweden the entire time?
Working from sweden the whole time.
Damn, she's pretty lucky.
Hanna and Aleks I think. Regardless, they were mainly bubbline shippers and didn't care much about anything else.
She's not wrong tho. Men hold woman to ridiculously high standards, especially on this site.
Delusion.
It's true! Some men expect that if a woman doesn't have a perfect personality that caters to their every will they're worthless.
This is goofy female nonsense. Men are the ones who get held to a higher standard, they just don't whine about it because they know neither women nor other men will humor their complaints or excuses; either that or they would outright berate them for whining so much in the first place. This is not the case for female creators who get a baseline level of empathy and simp-currency that men just don't. Thus, they b***h and whine more openly about how "tough" their lives in the industry are.
You clearly have not been on the internet long, online simps will turn on a woman at the slightest wrongdoing. Meanwhile men typically just get excused. The tumblr/twitter woke crowd is much smaller than you think it is.
>You clearly have not been on the internet long, online simps will turn on a woman at the slightest wrongdoing. Meanwhile men typically just get excused.
That doesn't really track with what I've observed, but the simps thing feels like an unfair comparison to start because male content creators often have fans, female content creators often have simps. The two fan base types are innately different and want different things.
She's not wrong, though women are often the ones hammering the hardest on age. Majority of the millennial-bashing on TikTok are 25 year old white women or enbies getting mad at 35 year old women for existing.
Did you want the show to be like Steven Universe where every single little thing must revolve around Steven "Fat Crying moron" Universe?
It would be pretty funny to see how Finn becomes suicidal after he sees pb and Marcy kiss. I guess that’s what they want
I guess to you, a character growing to become content with themself as they are is a foreign concept.
I bet you're girlfriendless. Cause you'd know, having a partner doesn't fix your life.
Characters aren’t people. Realism doesn’t make for a good story in this department. It’s not about making a greater statement on what men deserve in real life, it’s about making a satisfying story.
to me a character growing as a person and becoming a true chad is a satisfying story.
sorry you want a fantasy disney princess to come kiss you. That's not an interesting narrative to me.
It’s not an either or situation.
You're right it's not. in Avatar, Aang got the girl at the end. But he still went through emotional growth during the story.
But Katara wasn't his reward for being a good boy. It was just what happened.
He had bigger goals in mind. Stopping the fire kingdom, ending the war, etc.
Finn had similar goals. The fact he didn't kiss a girl at the end is not a big deal to me. Because he helped save the world. He is definitely kissable. But that story wasn't about romance. Finn is frickable as hell. But the story wasn't about that.
> But Katara wasn't his reward for being a good boy. It was just what happened.
And the resolution felt more cathartic because of it. That aspect of the character was put to rest with dignity. Finn would have benefited from the same treatment.
He did kiss Huntress Wizard towards the end though. It wasn't in the final episode (because unlike gay kisses straight ones won't get your show potentially cancelled) but he definitely was kissing her.
as much as people shit on steven universe, it did pave the way for gay kisses to be more accepted in cartoons
It didn't, for example south park had gay kisses long before. Not to mention japanese cartoons. I also don't know how this affects the story's overall quality. If Bubblegum and Marceline just hugged at the end nothing would changed.
>South Park
Stop being deliberately ignorant, a cartoon known for vulgar content and being for adults having a gay relationship wasn't pushing boundaries by the 2010s. A lot of the time when gay people were presented in those kinds of adult shows, they were depicted as comedic stereotypes first and foremost. But a genuine romantic homosexual pairing in child friendly media, on equal footing to heterosexual pairings? That was at the time far more controversial. Because it wasn't done as a joke, it wasn't apart of some adult only show, it was an example of gay relationships being normalised, and that was a big deal.
It clearly did, and the fact it did clearly makes you angry enough to stomp your feet and try to deny it.
Well yeah, even the end of Adventure Time probably did as well. A lot of people fixate on the Bubbline Kiss and choose to interpret it as some slight against Finn, as if Finn not kissing someone but the two lesbians getting to kiss is insulting him or implying he doesn't get to kiss anyone. But this is very blatantly forgetting all the numerous times Finn kissed people including his latest love interest earlier in the season. The reason the Bubbline kiss was shoehorned in there had nothing to do with Finn, it was entirely to push the boundaries at the time and include an open gay romance on equal footing with a straight one. And was done at the end because that way they couldn't get in trouble and have the show cancelled if the executives didn't like it.
>to push the boundaries at the time and include an open gay romance
It didn't push jack shit you revisionistic c**ts.
>It didn't push jack shit you revisionistic c**ts
I can already tell you're from the Dixie states. I knew that the Union shouldn't have brought back you c**ts back into the States.
No, I'm simply not a brain dead American. Besides if it exists just to "push boundaries" it's not a story but a propaganda piece.
>I'm simply not a brain dead American
You got the not part wrong, but you are an American, just the brain dead one. Johnny Reb, how's down South Dixie boy? The pic you posted is different from showing it blatant public, and from a different time. What you posted is like a critic subtly criticizing Slavery to John Brown shouting and dismissing it. Not like a Dixie like you would get it.
No, I meant that I'm simply not an American. I'm a Euro.
Well you clearly carry the spirit of an american in your way of posting and thinking. Your euro ancestors are probably ashamed.
You have my sympathies.
What you're saying is revisionist. Things have changed a lot even just in 5 years.
I think PB/Marceline got together because they are both immortal.
And they did like each other at some point. Who else can they date who won't die in a few decades? When you're immortal your priorities change.
>on equal footing with a straight one
If it's on "equal" footing then where's Finn's finale romance? Finn didn't even do anything in the finale
The Finale had a lot of problems but there isn't some rule that all romantic ends need to specifically be tied in the finale. Finn had already had his big kiss moments with his love interest both in Flute Spell, and The Wild Hunt which was earlier that season. Bubbline didn't have a single kiss across the whole series, and just got the one at the end. Ultimately, Finn got more kissing action with his love interest than PB and Marcy, just because the Bubbline one happened sequentially after Finn's kisses doesn't mean jack shit.
Kataang was complete trash, please don't use it as an example of romance done right. Of course Finncels would think it's good though lmao
Kataang was fine/10. It prevented the show from being worse more than it made the show better. It’s a good bare minimum example.
Why must you strawman?
No, kataang was actively bad in how it was executed. It made the show worse.
If Aang’s attachment to Katara was not resolved, the resolution to his character would be worse and thus the show would be worse. It was definitely weak, but still better than if they Adventure Timed it.
The way they resolved it by having Aang come off like an immature dick and get the girl anyway was trash. Finn had a way, way more satisfying arc when it came to his relationship skills and emotional development. Not even close.
I'm not strawmanning I'm just drunk.
Forgiven.
Speaking honestly the monkey brain is part of how this works, but it’s not a projecting incelness that people think it is. This is just how stories are traditionally concluded. A happily ever after, closing the book on that aspect of a male hero’s life.
we saw finn's happily ever after in Distant Lands.
and we saw the chad be became before that in Fionna and Cake.
I'm satisfied with Finn's character arc. I don't understand why some of you are upset by it.
Go get kissed.
becoming bubblegum's cuck and rejected by every girl you like isn't being a true chad, it's being a spineless gay with no self-respect
He learned from his relationship frickup with FP, and had a burgeoning relationship with HW that was a lot more mature. For a 17 year old, he was doing pretty good. I don't need to know who he marries, or if he ever does. I don't think that's important.
yeah but he didn't super nintendo high score bazinga get the girl speedrun 100%
I don't care about character growth I want to see number go up
kiss the girl as a reward
kiss me too, I deserve it. I'm a good boy.
Would be fine if the writing in this damn series did not feel so spiteful towards Finn. There would be some argument about this being realistic if it wasn't so obviously driven by writer's distaste for Finn as a whole because the way they wrote him later on in the series feels very mean spirited and spiteful. Like someone felt angry about even having to write Finn and wanted to make him as miserable as possible. I will give no credit to Adventure Time just for that alone.
It's in your head.
Yes. Sure it was all in Le Head. Then how do you explain that episode where it is implied that Finn was straight up raped by the Lump Princess.
he liked it
he consented to that because he's a freak weirdo, sex obsessed like internet users
Finn deserved a Mona Lisa GF.
Does the artist here draw more Adventure Time stuff?
Wamu's Finnceline tends to be tender and romantic, while his Fubblegum tends to be lustful and passionate. A neat, ironic contrast.
I love these two
Just gonna say it, the comics are better than the show. This thread only confirms by basis.
This show has been trash since they decided Betty needed to be shoehorned into the story terribly.
It took me until Seventeen to realize I can write better than the whole staff, but damn does it feel like a waste.
Imagine throwing such good world building in the trash for your yuri fanfic and woman empowerment story.
Embarrassing.
Well how could you make a better episode and better writing character for Betty Grof?
how does simon's story empower women? is it because a woman is involved?
>also fan fiction is made by consumers of media, not producers. the word you're looking for is just fiction. glad I could help you find it.
haha fan go whrrrrr
The latter seasons of Adventure Time is what happens when fanfic authors get into the industry.
Damn we need to get more of them into the business.
I feel like the "shills" defending the multibillion dollar industry by this point are just bots.
Literally completely lifeless writing. Devoid of all humanity.
No, you're just a moron obsessed with the multimillion dollar industry cartoon and everyone else is calling you a homosexual for it.
the ip counter went up when the post you replied to was made
do you know how this site works, nonny? where are you from?
>more than one person can't be a moronic homosexual obsessed with complaining about the show
No, you're right. It's just one guy who makes all these threads.
>come into thread, make one post
>get accused of being both obsessed and mentally moronic
>both posts literally read like bots, too.
oh golly, seems i've been thoroughly proven right. watch it reply again.
>bot accuses others of being a bot
Like pottery
I just wanted a thread to ask if they made canon that Finn ended up with someone in Fiona n Cake.
But now i understand the Finn way... i just need to live my life and improve in the ways i want.
The writers hated Finn. That's the truth.
>Jake
That right there is gay incest bestiality, something I would never expect from fanfiction!
Do you have any evidence for this statement?
There's none. It's all projection
>Ice King just under one percent
Okay, but what about with Simon included?
How do you get stats like that off FFnet?
AO3's top 10 ships are:
>PB/Marcy
1352
>Gumball/Marshall
465
>Betty/Ice King (Simon)
191
>Finn/FP
102
>Finn/HW
94
>Jake/Lady
91
>Fionna/Marshall
87
>Finn/Marcy
61
>PB/Finn
56
>Finn/Ice King (Simon)
44
>PB/Marcy 1352
>Gumball/Marshall 465
>Betty/Ice King (Simon) 191
God I hate lesbians
lesbians or not here i come.
The whole point of the show is to be a turbocuck with the worst artistic taste imaginable so it makes sense.
Then why are the only ones who act like turbocucks all the time are the ones who hate and constantly complain about the show?
Muto is based for making Finn a lonely wierdo who never gets over the death of Jake.
Finn deserves no happy ending, he never worked for it
stfu dumb falseflagger
On what merits does Finn deserve a happy ending?
Should PB have treated her son better?
Finn didn’t save the world, nor was he instrumental in any major plot point. He is not entitled to a happy ending, nor a love interest
>nor was he instrumental in any major plot point.
Didn't he help the humans dare to leave their island?
Stakes-Marceline
Islands-Susan Strong/Minerva
Elements- LSP/Ice King
Finn was not the hero in these
You're trying too hard
Finn deserved to pin Marcie down and have a big family.
Marcy does not like soifilled homosexuals as partners. Ash was more of a chad than Finn will ever be
That famous episode when Ash stared down the Lich
Would have been based is PB, Marcy, and Finn just started a poly relationship.
Finn would just get the cuckshed treatment.
They're immortal with flexible moralities. Finn could convince them someday.
That unironically makes more sense than Marceline and Bubblegum spontaneously sparking a passionate and deep lesbian relationship.
Would have saved the show.
it really would have, there was a syfy show that died as soon as they broke up the main mff relationship
>poly
This isn't tumblr. Just call it a harem like a normal person.
PB and Marcey still frick so it's poly. Harem is when the guy fricks the women and the women don't have any interest in each other.
The anons here must really have affectionate
for Finn, huh?
How do Finncels cope with the fact that even mordecai got a happier ending?
Why did people who hated Finn even watch the show? Judging by some of the threads these days like a quarter of the Fandom seethes whenever him having a girlfriend comes up.
What were you even watching for if not for Finn and Jake?
What if Prismo didn't have the crown destroyed?
The next season of fionna and cake should be about how Simon is dying after he contracted aids from Finn. That would be more compelling than 90% of the trash spilled by the writers
Finn’s only sexual partner was lsp, and after that he died alone. Why can’t you morons accept that?
Explain why it is correct that ice king of all people got his dick wet but Finn didn't
Wasn't it just crazy b***hes who were into him though?
Because Simon is over 1000 years old and Finn isn’t. Simon was about to get engaged, and Finn’s only sexual activity was rubbing against Lards of lump.
Please stop replying to the most obvious seething bait. People always start posting like that when a Finncel loses an argument it's incredibly predictable.
>Marcy the human sneaking into Finn's place and seeing his wiener and balls as he's going off to shower
Also, Simon is more sympathic to the viewer (women). Finn is a wierdo loser with zero charisma.
>has saved the multiverse multiple times before he's out of his teens
>loser
Canon fact that several princesses want his wiener
All the princesses viewed him as used goods after he stopped being 12. Simon, on the other hand, is liked by older and younger women.
>Simon, on the other hand, is liked by older and younger women.
Of course. That's what the cages are for.
Even if Finn manages to get in a serious relationship with HW, it will most likely be an open relationship where she has most of the leverage. Finn will play along because he has no self respect and is desperate
Huntress Wizard has the personality of a rock. Boring af character.
Even in the formal introducing of HW, it was stated she had a boyfriend
And Finn had a girlfriend
Nope, he was a single lose freak( just like now)
Why do you dislike Finn? Is it because you identify with ice king?
Simon is a whiny homosexual, ice king was kino
He had Flame Princess as a girlfriend. If you are gonna post such obvious bait about the show you could have at least watched more of it.
I’m taking about the season 7 episode where she is FORMALLY introduced. Not in the previous seasons where she is a background character
>HW is implied to maybe have had a boyfriend in the past, and this is bad because I said it is
>Finn is literally known to have had a girlfriend in the past, this doesn't matter though for some reason
Not maybe, she did have a boyfriend. He is mentioned and even showed. Finn has to watch as she talks about her lover while he has to play a flute spell for her.
I don't think that spirit dude was her boyfriend. As Finn said it seemed like a mentor/student relationship. Not that it fricking matters.
If that’s what you cope with it’s alright
Rewatch the episode.
HW likes to keep her options opened, something finn wishes he could do
Finn could have any woman he wants. He's the Hero of Ooo. He just needs to actually try.
Billy is the real hero of ooo, and even he could not maintain a relationship. Finn is not a hotshot like when he was 12. No princess views him as a prettyboy, they view him as an old wierdo like the ice King
Because the writers hate Finn yes. He should realistically be a National hero that everyone loves.
Mordecai was a weirdo loser with no chance with women and even he got a happier ending. Muto just likes to keep things real
Mordecai actively self sabotaged himself
Finn literally saved the world
Finn did not save the world. He was just another cog in the machine. Simon arguably did more to save the world than Finn.
>Finn did not save the world
Ok. So you claim that if Finn never existed, nothing would change?
>Billy is the real hero of ooo, and even he could not maintain a relationship.
Canyon was a bad person, that's why.
Billy was also a becoming a bitter man who resented being a hero.
Yeah but the way Canyon described her problems with him was basically "Yeah he got sad and didn't take me out partying anymore" which seems like a shallow, uncaring, and disloyal reason for jumping ship on her part.
Realistic, which is one of the reasons women love this show, but still bad.
>Canyon described her problems with him was basically "Yeah he got sad and didn't take me out partying anymore"
that's not what she said. she said that all he did was mope around and play video games all day. i know you can relate to that but girls don't like guys who just sulk all day
>that's not what she said. she said that all he did was mope around and play video games all day.
Which itself was the result of his depression. It's clear where her focus lies, the moments of the relationship where she can squeeze out enjoyment and enrichment rather than the person she's sharing the relationship with.
huntress wizard is married to adventure like finn
it's not about other men, it's about time management
>neither of them are capable of a committed relationship
if you considered bubblegum and marcy as friends of finn's you might get it eventually
HW likes to keep it lowkey, which means she’s having side pieces. Finn is just another acquaintance to her.
It's 100% more likely that Finn, the charismatic adventurer who had lines of women wanting to make out with him is fricking people on the side, rather than Huntress Wizard the smelly hermit wizard autist. If you are gonna try to force a new meme at least have it somewhat make sense.
Why do you spergs always make Finn out to be a chad? Even in distant lands, he was living in an rv and did not look muscular or anything of that sort. He is a lonely autist who copes with the death of Jake by going on hunts
>he was living in an rv
Was he though? They were clearly all just travelling to help PB and Marcy and an RV was the easiest way to do it. He's far more likely to be living in a treasure filled cave like Billy was.
>and did not look muscular or anything of that sort
Yeah, for that short period of time before when Fionna and Cake is set, where he's clearly big an muscular. It's even implied before then when jake was still alive he was big and muscular, going by when Prismo was watching the old Finn and Jake footage where they were carrying that egg.
.You do not understand how easy it is for women to get dick. There's a reason that 99 percent of prostitution is men paying for either pussy or a younger man's butthole.
This is Ooo, there are hardly any attractive men but an over abundance of horny princesses. A weirdo hermit like Huntress Wizard would struggle to compete against all that, and clearly spends all her time alone in the forest schlicking on logs for relief before she met Finn.
Meant to also reply to this
>It's 100% more likely that Finn, the charismatic adventurer who had lines of women wanting to make out with him is fricking people on the side
This. Finn would easily have dozens of byblows scattered around the world if he was a bit less innocent minded.
>rather than Huntress Wizard the smelly hermit wizard autist.
You do not understand how easy it is for women to get dick. There's a reason that 99 percent of prostitution is men paying for either pussy or a younger man's butthole.
No, they are implied to have some kind of relationship and Finn and Jake make assumptions about it.
>No man. She thinks my grass arm flute playing could summon the Spirit of the Forest. I've been playing different songs for 2 weeks, though, and he hasn't shown up yet.
>Who's that, her ex-boyfriend?
>Uh, I guess they used to hang out, but maybe in some kind of mentor-student capacity.
And then later on when Finn gets to talk to the spirit of the forest
>Wow, dude, we've been trying to summon you for weeks.
>And why do you seek me?
>I don't, personally, but Huntress Wizard really wants to talk to you, man.
>Did you know that a wolf's eyes are on the front of its head?
>But, yeah, didn't you guys used to hang?
>Most predatory species are like that. This little buddy doesn't even know I'm here. (in reference in huntress wizard's spirit wolf form)
>Fella, I don't want to have a science talk right now.
>Huntress Wizard only sees straight ahead, eyes on the prize. Now, why did you really need to see me?
And then later on when they properly summon him, HW and the spirit have this conversation
>Who summons me with the sweet song of longing? Oh, hey-oh. Can you see me now?
>Yes.
>How's it been going?
>I've been talking to a lot of twigs. Where have you been, dude?
>I've been right here, but the forces that drew us close became obscured as you drifted into the lifestyles of magic city livin'. Attracting forces come and go. It's the way of the world.
Then Jake chimes in with "I still can't tell if you guys dated."
So no, it isn't confirmed literally by the words of the characters themselves. Their relationship is up to interpretation. It could be romantic like you think it is, it could be mentor/student, or it could be her metaphorical connection to nature being weakened by her delving into wizardry. But what is 100% confirmed is that Finn did date FP and she's his ex. One clearly is more definite than the other.
I saw it as Jake interpreting everything through the lens of romance.
Reminder that anyone who uses quote replies is not worth responding to. They'll ignore anything you say.
he fricks huntress wizard
he mentions her several times even in fiona and cake, he literally has kids in farm world, and the different worlds are fairly consistent with character shipping. just because they have a more nebulous title doesn't mean he doesn't lay down dick.
also finn loses his virginity to LSP, if you were fricking paying attention.
>just watched the last seasons
no you fricking didn't dumbass
There is no evidence of Finn doing anything with HW apart from those two kiss scenes.
Hw is just a consolation prize because Rebecca Sugar was obsessed with making Marcie and PB a couple and the writers all hated flame princess for some reason.
Honestly I would have fricked Breakfast Princess silly myself.
I watched through the entire show a couple months ago and I didn't come away from it thinking that Finn had to have a girlfriend to complete his story.
He doesn't NEED one, but why rub it his face so much? That scene where the girls remove his arms from their shoulders is so emasculating
Because muto wants wierdos like you to get angry every time finn gets humiliated for a gag
>make mc
>turn him into a whipping boy
Why this makes masochists like u enjoy it is beyond me
I don’t care about Finn after season 4. He becomes a non factor going further into the show. So watching spergs get mad about him is funny to watch
Same. The only time I cared about Finn romance was the FP breakup because it was annoying
After that nonsense was all over, I went back to not caring
Ditto
>Finn is...le cuck!!!
Sometimes I wonder if this is advanced bait tactics or if anons here actually believe what they're typing
It's Yuri gays
How come Simon is supportive of Marceline dating PB if he’s from the 20th century where gays where a minority and sodomy was outlawed? We know that even Hunson doesn’t support homosexualry and he’s a demon.
He's afraid of getting canceled on X
He was a long haired college professor who was into spiritualism and myths, he's probably somewhat of a hippie who didn't really care about gay people back in the 90s.
Wait, Simon's from the 90's?
yeah
So we never got a black president? Hell yeah
That's any time in the 1900s u onion brain.
We know he watched cheers so he is at least from the 80s or 90s.
FnC has his home called 20th century. So Simon lived until the late 90s at best before the Great Mushroom War
>Hunson doesn’t support homosexualry
wat?
He asks Marceline when she’s having a kid in front of pb, Finn and Jake. Keep in mind this was in season 10
gay people can technically have kids as well. He probably was more focused on the prospect of a grandkid over who specifically marceline gets together with.
>gay people can technically have kids as well. He probably was more focused on the prospect of a grandkid over who specifically marceline gets together with.
You mean he was hoping Finn would knock up his daughter?
The good ending
He seems to be more conservative in his beliefs and demeanor. He emphasizes the need of tradition and keeping the family name to a high standard.
Satan being pro-gay opens up some questions anon
that's not homophobia
that's just dad shit
Homosexuality is cringe
Finn will never reproduce with a human, let alone any monster
>Bubbline shippers only got on staff late in the show!
Natasha Allegri and Becky Sucrose were there from the beginning
Heck Nat shipped them before they met in show.
Nat shipped everything
I get the feeling muto tried to ship Finn with Tiffany at some point
sorry chud Rebecca Sugar says that all straight white males deserve to die alone
Finn is not a real man, nor is he straight
>citation needed
I really do not understand Finncels. The whole puppylove trope has been a staple of cartoons since the beginning of time. Anyone with a brain would have noticed that PB was not going to end up with Finn. Its a representation of the classic tween boy crushes on older girl but she must turn him down due to age difference and by the time he gets old enough we will have found another girl his age. Its a thing many many boys go through. The problem with AT is not the failure with PB Finn romance, its how badly it handled the FP Finn one. That was the one that should have succeeded.
The best scenario probably would have been
>Finn and Flame Princess get together
>Some episodes showing their young romance
>Eventually the episode where they break up happens, but have it happen not like Frost and Fire so it isn't straight up murdering the ship entirely.
>Have some seasons of single Finn and Flame Princess as they grow up and mature
>Then have an episode where they are both older towards the end of the series and rekindle their love now they are more mature and able to handle a relationship.
It is kinda astounding how they managed to frick up their relationship so much. FP and Finn already were only given like a couple episodes per season together so she was like a tertiary character anyway. And then they essentially write her out of the show and frick up Finn's character all for Cinnamon Roll's character development. Another tertiary character they also essentially wrote out of the show.
What was the point?
You said something like this anyway but while the PB romance not going places made sense, the series seemed to really chew Finn up when it came to romance stuff up until Huntress Wizard.
And honestly as much as I like HW from afar, when I peer too closely at how she's actually been portrayed I can't help but find her on the verge of unappealing.
What do you not like about HW?
It's hard to define in a way that doesn't sound stupid. The way that sounds stupid is that some of her dialogue just makes her seem like any normal uninteresting girl in ways that the other potential or even non-potential love interests didn't.
Cute.
Why does she look so weird in this. It's not just the hair, there's something else about it I can't quite place. Subtle differences in face shape maybe?
she's got big ears
Very 2000s
Giving peak Avril
Finn and Flame Princess were kino awkward romance. Why the frick did they break them up in such a weird way? It seemed so out of character for Finn. And it seems like the fanbase is more or less united in thinking that The Red Throne is the worst episode of the series.
I blame Xayaphone
That fricker self identified with Cinnamon Bun and broke up Finn and FP for his idiotic Cinnamon BunXFP fanfic didnt he?
>fatherless
>loser
>incel
>jakeless
>pbless
>lives in rv
>soibeard
>not even the protagonist
>crybaby
Christ, it's like visiting a fricking asylum in here. How many times are you braindead homosexuals going to repeat the same thing over and over again?
Yeah the incels never seem to get tired.
>HAHA EVERYONE IN THIS THREAD IS moronic BUT ME
Until muto delivers kino and it’s revealed Finn actually died of aids (from a male)
Probably comes from the fact that AT had so much romance in it and yet we never got any romantic closure for Finn. Also, Wizard City was complete shit.
The show was just awful at romance in general. As much as some people b***h about the ship, we had to wait until fricking Obsidian to get any good explicit Bubbline.
I think that is just what happens when you have a shitton of writers for a single show. The focus gets pulled in many different directions. They also had a bunch of dead characters that randomly needed focus episodes like LSP, Tree trunks etc. Also. the 11 minute run time really doesnt help if you want a semi complex plot line with room for romance.
I WISH we got as much Bubbline as some of these dingbats say we did. Jesus Christ, they make it sound like the two were face sucking every episode.
Only the 7th season laid it on heavy so I don't know what they're talking about. The prior episodes were extremely subtle about it from Marceline's perspective. People were delusional if they thought "Happy Ending" was about Ash instead of PB after What was Missing. Then she ad-libbed "Francis Forever" and "Slow Dance with You" right after their implied dating in Stakes
Yeah it took a while but at least they delivered eventually. If I was a less patient person I may have grown some shade. The sweater thing still makes me smile.
>"Happy Ending" was about Ash
I can't belive how moronic some people are. That was the song that was written in 2016 alongside the finale. It also references the song from Marceline's closet. Song that was for Finn to hear. As so Bubbline is and always will be trash because it's build on lies, retcons, recontexualizing and shamelessly condemning and berating the MC. I really fricking hate it.
Finn will never be with pb, chudcel
built*
I don't care for either character. It's just the writing that almost pisses me off.
I really do not understand the mentality that somehow every girl is meant to be in Finn's harem. I think anime has rotted teh brain of some people here.
Based muto will make Finn into an aids ridden homosexual to dispel any mentions of a harem
I'm simply bummed out by lack of any satisfying resolution of something that was already set up. Hell, that's basically AT in a nutshell.
Hopefully the relative success of F&C means that we will get more AT content in the near future. Ideally about the aftermath of the Golb war. But I still want to see Fionna and Cake have adventures that concern them and not Simon.
Simon's mostly more interesting than F&C. Fionna is just Finn but a loser who cries a lot (socially acceptable because she's a girl). She can't even really swing a sword right unless the sword swings itself for her.
Right, so they should have had an arc where she learns how to adventure or something like that. Or just not have her be a fat slob in the first place. And if you want to tell Simon's story just make a Simon and Betty show instead of coopting F&C.
I want SimonxFionna anon
Ok but only if we can have FinnxIce Queen first.
Interestingly Hanna wrote the kiss in the finale as if were their first one in years. I personally got the vibe that they were together before that point, but maybe they were in an ambiguous in-between stage for a while.
I thought they were together since at least before Varmints because of the snuggling at the end
Things were still a bit tense between them before Varmints. My read on it was that they gradually got closer post-stakes and were a thing by the last season.
I'm just mad that Pendleton Ward obviously intended PB x Finn and after he left they just decided to shit on both his intentions and Finn
>his intentions
You mean love triangle stuff? Because if he wanted PB to be young he'd just keep her at 13. I doubt he even had an endgame on his mind as he was almost sure that the show won't get a third season.
poly triad is best ending
Finn will always live in the cuckshed
No
Stop being a bigot
Sorry finncel but lesbian relationship do not include men.
but neither PB nor Marcy are lesbians, they've both had male relationships, they're bi
I said lesbian relationship, not that they are
polyshit is shit.
Go back to California.
conservatives hate poly because it's "degenerate"
leftoids hate it because it doesn't drive home the "i hate men" point that exclusively lesbian ships do
it's a lose/lose trying to make it work
It's degenerate if there's more than one man involved. Also, really, it's pretty degenerate and dehumanizing period.
Even my gay ass thinks it's degenerate.
>conservatives hate poly because it's "degenerate"
Depends on how much you build it around the man.
>conservatives this
>liberals that
I hate Fubbline because it involves Finn as a vehicle for self-inserting with no concern for the actual characters.
>with no concern for the actual characters
Bubbline hated original characters so much it turned aspects of them on their heads. There can be nothing worse. This dynamic at least theoretically would actually work with their original roles and personalities.
Bubbline didn't change the characters, matter of fact Bubbline works best with the original characterisation. PB and Marcy were changed by factors wholly unrelated to their relationship. If you paired Finn and PB together in the final season PB would still be her awful dictator self.
PB being a Nazi is so fricking funny.
You gotta give her props, she does keep undesirables out of her Kingdom
finncels don't care about finn, let alone any other character
Did winter king kill marcy when she stood up to his curse on pb?
Probably not, Winter King had his own Ice Marcy after all, he clearly had great affection there. I think he would have tried putting her on ice or imprisoning her or something long before actually killing her.
Plus, even though PB knows WK put a spell on her, does anybody else know it?
>finn gets cucked by Marcy
>finn gets cuckes by CB
>finn gets cucked by HW’s ex/current bf
Who will be next?
The man, the myth, the legend. He's going to do it by himself.
Does AT inadvertently explain how when earth degenerates all the remaining creatures will resort to becoming homosexual pedophile rapists?
No, Ooo is actually very heterosexual overall.
All the wizards act like homosexuals, so maybe that’s how they get their madness, sadness and magic
Man, Candy Queen's singing was really good. It's a shame PB never really sang much, and when she did it was really muted in comparison to her CQ performance.
Yeah
>Post Marceline.
Sorry anon, we can't post Marceline, because we're post-Marceline. It's all about Real-World Ice Queen now, and her gigantic brown breasts and ass. Sexiest ice cream seller in the world, probably.
I don't see you posting her then homosexual
I just don't feel like it !!!
Huntress Wizard is canonically used goods and they split up because she wanted to become even MORE used goods firs
Really convincing people to post marceline by insulting her core fanbase, huh?
Yuri gays have always been in the minority here and they always will be you drooling moron. Just because Marcy has been co-opted by gays and virtue signaling dipshits that don't watch the show doesn't mean they're represented here.
Marceline's popularity was dramatically boosted by her relationship with pb.
Popularity among WHO? The kinds of homosexuals that wear her on t-shirts and literally only watched her make out scene with PB on YouTube? Marcy has ALWAYS been big on Cinemaphile, but it's pretty universally agreed on here she got objectively worse in every way when they paird her with pb.
Cinemaphile is also a minority. Your point?
?si=vY72uxgL-XoYuNxy&t=100
I hated this witch. Did she ever make any other appearances?
Yurigays are the minority, but so are schizo bubbline-haters.
Absolutely not. Bubbline gays are just the most loud and post the most homosexual art because they have a 3TB folder on their desktop of yuri shit they jack off to while wishing they were a woman.
Damn that's good.
ywnbaw
I don't want to be. A man liking yuri is more straight than a man liking hetero since there's no other men involved.
right it just makes you a delusional cuck who thinks they would be in anyway involved.
Just self insert as one of the girls, easy.
(you)
Huntress Wizard is like the carousel at a fair
Everyone in town has ridden it, including ice king
Truly Finn died the way he lived: a betacuck whose crush fricks other men
Ya know anon, if you just want Finn to frick your boy pussy you can just say that
Why was he willing to frick Bronwyn like that?
He looks like your average soiboi homosexual
Ya gay.
I actually hate Finn and find it funny when his “””””gf”””” has hundreds of partners before he even has a chance
People that think FP/Finn is bad need to read this one
No, it makes me feel sad
Thats the best ship. Im just sad FP had less screentime than fricking BMO or peppermint butler.
God, Flame Princess is so fricking cute... I want to watch Finn frick her so bad!
“Ummm I just don’t think I’m emotionally ready for a committed relationship yet and also I wanna keep riding the wiener carousel for 20 more years until I’m ready to settle for a beta like you” - Huntress Bicycle
Loooooooooooooooooooolz
Is that... someone other than me fricking Huntress Wizard, well to that I say that's fricking hot! Finn! Frick Huntress Wizard for me! YABBA DABBA DOO IT!
>There are anons who fantasise about being cucked by Huntress Wizard while they watch her frick Finn
Pretty weird tbh
I told you finncels are self inserting cucks
You can try to force this meme all you want but no one is gonna take it seriously.
It’s not a meme, it’s a reality made by muto. It will be presented in the new series Finn and cuck. He will accept an open relationship with HW
It was really cute that Huntress Wizard showed up at the skate park when Finn was playing the flute for the skater kids there.
Finn just got a new stalker. Marceline on the other hand became so boring she wouldn't even go skateboarding with them kids.
True, though maybe she's just really shit at skateboarding.
She can fly, she cheats.
I really wish we got to see more of Finn and HW, a big part of why many aren't satisfied with her and Finn is because the show didn't do enough to show their relationship and dynamic, something that they did multiple times when Finn was into PB and FP.
Seriously, we got Flute Spell, Wild Hunt and Seventeen, and that last one is a bit of a stretch.
Sure Fionna and Cake implies they're together, maybe even in multiple universes, but that's too ambiguous for those who prefer hard confirmation in their ships.
I mean, PB and Marcy got many moments through the show AND Fionna and Cake, that's part of the reason the ship is so popular, Finn and HW needed more screen time.
It would have been fun to see her doing shit like that a bit more often - but then again the showruners would probably be against her actually coming off as stalkerish.
Imagining a random log showing up in Finn and Jake's place and it's just Huntress Wizard being weird sounds very funny.
Adam muto already confirmed that HW and Finn are in an open relationship and Finn doesn’t seem to mind. Since the series has shifted to being more mature, they are implementing themes that resonate with the audience.
Okay but I still wanted to see Finn interacting with HW more.
They don't even have to kiss or frick or whatever, she was a cool character and I wanted to see more of her.
Unfortunately a scene where HW fricks other guys and Finn watches in the corner is too graphic
Hopefully a scene where she fricks Finn and I watch from the corner isn't too graphic!
Based! I'm glad HW and Finn opened up their relationship to allow me to watch them from the corner. That way instead of myself having sex with hot women, I can self insert as Finn while I watch! Let's fricking go!
Why do you want to get cucked by Huntress Wizard so much?
>Adam muto already confirmed that HW and Finn are in an open relationship and Finn doesn’t seem to mind
That isnt really going to please anybody and just adds fuel to the Finncel sentiment.
That and the fact that open relationships seldomly work, if ever.
Finncels are a non factor so everyone wins. At least Finn will be finally happy being a cuck and prepping the bull
I guess he can be happy if the bull is PB fashioning a humongous wiener out of hard candy. Hey, the Finncels will be happy too.
I really doubt he used the specific words of "open relationship", they're probably more like just friends with benefits.
Muto stated he wanted to create a realistic outcome for Finn, and a relationship that isn’t tied down and is free to experiment is the best for a character like Finn
Not like I don't believe you because all that sounds like completely realistic things to say, but I really wish there was a link to the interview or whatever where Muto says all this.
We could really have used an episode where Finn and HW run a corrupted forest themed dungeon together
That would be pretty cool. Finn talking about how usually he's the one figuring out or smashing his way through these things, and being on the other side of the table for once was an interesting perspective.
Then HW talks about how it's time to leave a signature or something, kind of akin to videogame map makers leaving their little signatures or calling cards. HW's is cool and thoughtful or whatever, and maybe Finn's is comparatively lame.
Why is this dude so mad about Muto specifically? Pen was the showrunner when Finn's relationships with PBubs and Phoebe died.
What about my posts suggests I hate muto? I am simply regurgitating what he said in an interview not long ago. I actually thinks he’s quite a witty and creative guy. He gave new life to an otherwise bland character
Scapegoat boogeyman mixed with "Old good/New bad" mentality. Since Penn created the show when it was "good" he's their cherished hero they have a positive parasocial relationship with (like when they post about how Penn probably shares the same opinions as them and was bullied out of his own show by mean lesbians despite still happily voicing characters on the show) and since Muto was the showrunner in the later seasons they hate, they also have a parasocial relationship with him but one where they project their idea of some evil boogeyman out to get them specifically by attacking Finn as a proxy.
And now they've become so completely mindbroken that they are openly admitting their own cuck fetishes, it's getting pretty sad at this point.
I would blame individual writers much more than Muto. He greenlit a lot of stupid shit but someone else wrote that stupid shit first.
Well obviously, yeah. The majority of bad shit that happened on the show were just writers making bad decisions and then having to roll with it. The show clearly wasn't planned start to finish so you had a lot of instances of writers trying to be experimental or introducing new ideas that then other writers don't want to work with so clunkily write out of the story when they can. Have you ever noticed how most of the worst episodes of the show are the ones that try to change the status quo in some way? Either by introducing something new or trying to bring things back to how it was before.
>Implying that Cinnamon Bun is a more mature hero than Finn and is cucking him with FP
Dont remind me
Cinnamon Bun is the real self insert success story. Fat doughy moron who gets to rail flame princess on the reg
Did you mean to reply to someone else? None of your weird self insert cuck fantasy had anything to do with my post
That's not true, there are multiple shows that plan out what happens in future seasons. It's the ones that don't do the planning that usually end up so poorly, like Star Vs for example which just made up some new convoluted storyline because they never planned past season 2.
>there are multiple shows that plan out what happens in future seasons
Name 10 that are not adaptations or short series/miniseries.
I dunno if I could name 10 shows that don't plan out future storylines either, so I don't really get the point of doing that for you.
>The show clearly wasn't planned start to finish
No tv show with multiple seasons ever was, that's not an excuse.
He's just a schizo.
Nice.
This is why muto is in charge, not you self inserting homosexuals. He already made it clear HW and Finn see other people (mainly HW) all while still seeing each other.
He didn't tho.
He said Finn and HW aren’t official, but HW also has other partners and Finn has matured and accepted this fact in their relationship
Did he also talk about how Finn sits in the corner and watches or did he just let it remain implied?
It was more cryptic, but he did bring it up when someone asked him about Finn’s situation. He mainly said he wanted to experiment with Finn’s relationship with HW and bring something to the mature audience
>HW also has other partners
No one has ever said this lmao
Sorry, specifically the other partner is Finn. I've worked it out that even if I can never frick Huntress Wizard, I can at least watch Finn and her Frick while self inserting as Finn. If anything it's better than normal sex because I don't even have to put in any effort myself!
Muto and Sugar personally sent me an email that stated how HW is seeing other men while she’s “”””””””””””dating “””””””””” Finn
The other men being me and my fellow Finnbros btw, but not to frick us just to let us watch while she fricks the real Finn. It's a pretty sweet deal!
Those wizards had a mighty need.
Well can you at least make a thread based on this, please.
Ah so this is where the morons were being kept. Shame this thread will die soon and all of you frickwads will be let loose to ruin other threads.
Well could you at least kindly make a thread about this, please
No, Cinemaphile would be shit at coming up with good episode ideas
You homosexuals read and/or watch too much cuckoldry porn. Take a cold shower and learn some restraint with your fetish.
Finn and HW being in an open relationship doesn’t mean he’s a cuck. You guys are projecting due to your fragile masculinity and immaturity
Open relationship is literally mutual cuckoldry.
Saying "it's ok" for some Chad to ream your gf doesn't make it less cringe.