The story in the movie about those real-life jazz musicians is bullshit. Jazz musicians were, as a rule, alcoholics, drug addicts, and losers. Not the type to try to resort to Fletcher's method of teaching.
There are schools of musicians especially from the Free Jazz school that were essentially hacks just making albums to get their next fix, and then there were actual musical geniuses who had perfect pitch, went to juliard, created something that could be really dissected every time they played, and formed ESP with their bandmates. Sometimes both, and probably everything inbetween.
>99% vs 1%
Of course to the most he is a villain-like character... It makes them feel uncomfortable because they know that they won't be able endure what Andrew did 'cause they're simply... losers.
>publicly shames the drummer ruining his dream >drummer storms off >drummer comes back on stage and proves to teacher he is the best >just like the story teacher tells about bird >both smile at each other in recognition
literally happens in the movie. watch til the end and make sure to put your phone down
5 months ago
Anonymous
they worked.
the other kid was for a certain reason... a homosexual unfortunately. But, let's peel that a layer...
I think the dissimilarity between both cases is on major factor upon which almost all mentor-pupil relationships should be based on... polarity. I don't think Fletcher's spent the time to explain the reasoning behind his methods to the other kid. The moment when they were at the restaurant (if I remember correctly) was crucial.
>kids leaves because he's fricking tired of the terrible methods >lives a normal life while playing drums in whatever way he feels right rather than being autistic about it >becomes such a good drummer that even Fletcher admits defeat to him
Fletcher was wrong as proven by the movie.
5 months ago
Anonymous
Low IQ.
Gtfo
5 months ago
Anonymous
>No argument
Concession accepted.
5 months ago
Anonymous
He only got his chops because of Fletcher. Yeah he needed a break but he wouldn't be anybody without busting his ass.
5 months ago
Anonymous
>He only got his chops because of Fletcher
Fletcher got him in the band because say he had the chops for it to begin with.
5 months ago
Anonymous
Did you miss the part where he slaved away and bled on the drum pad to get his chops? I don't think you know what I mean when I say "chops" in the context of music actually, go look it up.
5 months ago
Anonymous
Did you miss the part in which the guy was already good enough to be in the band and improved even after he stopped being in the band because, ultimately, Fletcher was wrong?
5 months ago
Anonymous
Have you ever learned an instrument?
5 months ago
Anonymous
Why are you moving the goalposts?
The drummer achieved, by himself, a level that he couldn't get with Fletcher's methods because Fletcher's methods are flawed and wrong. Fletcher himself nods him in approval at the end confirming this.
Your attempts at pilpuling are futile.
5 months ago
Anonymous
I'm not moving the goalposts, I'm asking if you've ever learned an instrument to get an idea of where you're coming from.
What you're saying doesn't make any sense. >Get into a school >Learn techniques at that school >Use techniques you learned at that school later to prove your worth after a break
You seem to be struggling with the idea that step two even happened, which is what makes me think you have no idea what learning an instrument is like at all. You seem to think all the practicing he did as part of what Fletcher made him strive for did not contribute to his ability to play well, which just would not be the case in real life and was not the case in the movie. Nor would anyone with that potential reach it naturally without insane practice.
5 months ago
Anonymous
>Use techniques you learned at that school
Fletcher didn't teach him shit.
Not like it matters because you are (purposefully, I hope) hyper simplifying the movie if you truly believe that's what it is about. I say "I hope" because if that's not the case then you got unironically filtered.
Fletcher is wrong because devoting yourself obsessively to anything to the detriment of everything and everyone else is pointless and selfish, not because you can reach mastery without insanely hard practice.
>Fletcher is wrong because
I'm not arguing about the reason behind why he is wrong and if anything I pointed out that he is wrong over his turboautism which is what you are saying anyways.
5 months ago
Anonymous
>Fletcher didn't teach him shit
I said specifically "what Fletcher made him strive for". I've picked my words very carefully. >what it is about
We are not even talking about what it is about, we are talking about what actually happens on a surface level in the movie.
He very clearly does practice a lot while in school because of the pressure put on him. Arguing that he had all of his skills before he even went to that school or that he formed all of them afterwards is ridiculous. You don't practice like a motherfricker and not get better.
5 months ago
Anonymous
>You don't practice like a motherfricker and not get better.
Better at what though.
The teachers entire ideology was based on the fact that the cool kids don't like jazz anymore.
So his solution is practice crappy jazz harder.
Doesn't make any sense.
5 months ago
Anonymous
Nothing to do with where he got his skills
5 months ago
Anonymous
Skills don't automatically make something popular.
Studios are full of highly skilled session players that couldn't make a hit to save their life.
5 months ago
Anonymous
>Skills don't automatically make something popular
I never said anything remotely like that
5 months ago
Anonymous
>Arguing that he had all of his skills before he even went to that school or that he formed all of them afterwards is ridiculous
So is arguing that Fletcher is the reason he had those skills too.
The kid was already enrolled in the school and his skills are the reason Fletcher got an interested in him to begin with. The movie makes a point of showing that Fletcher is a fricking autist and getting into his class is a big deal because he is picky as frick but you are somewhat trying to argue that the drummer was "meh" and needed to get shit taught to him which is ridiculous. >we are talking about what actually happens on a surface level
And on a surface level Fletcher is shown to be blatantly wrong the moment the kid that ignored his moronic "sacrifice your life for the music bro" methodology turns out to be a great drummer.
5 months ago
Anonymous
Fletcher is wrong because devoting yourself obsessively to anything to the detriment of everything and everyone else is pointless and selfish, not because you can reach mastery without insanely hard practice.
5 months ago
Anonymous
>becomes a good drummer
Because of his determination to frick over his teacher. Fricking hell you are an idiot
5 months ago
Anonymous
>Because of his determination to frick over his teacher.
He predicted that he would cross paths randomly with Fletcher this one would offer him to play in a bad in a 'casual' way but that the offer would be a trick to ridicule him so he trained to uno reverso Fletcher's trick? Is that really what you are saying?
they worked.
the other kid was for a certain reason... a homosexual unfortunately. But, let's peel that a layer...
I think the dissimilarity between both cases is on major factor upon which almost all mentor-pupil relationships should be based on... polarity. I don't think Fletcher's spent the time to explain the reasoning behind his methods to the other kid. The moment when they were at the restaurant (if I remember correctly) was crucial.
You're missing the point. The kid actually understood what he was trying to do and accomplished it further. He beat him at his own game and gain. Pay attention zoomer
the moral of the story was: >leader of privately owned jazz band is bad because he expects perfection >leader of publicly owned jazz band is good because he expects perfection
His methods didn't work. The kid needed something to drive him forward and shoving it right back in his teacher's face and making him look like a fricking fool by upstaging him is what did it.
Which required the method in the first place you moron. He specifically wanted his pupil to hate him, to shove it in his face, to be greater than him. It's like the essence of teaching on steroids. Every new generation is an attempt at something greater. I bet you'd be the teacher who brings donuts to class and gives everyone A's for showing up
>He's the antagonist. He is not a villain.
Fletcher beats, belittles, and yells at his students who are already pressured enough by being in the literal ivy league of music schools who can easily get thrown out if they make a slight frick up.
He's a irl villain with good intentions but messed up actions to achieve them.
this movie is a great filterer. The movie itself tried to play fair by painting the whole situation as grey area but anyone who says it's outright wrong is a gay with massive red flags.
It's easy, you just need equal rhythm and much better limb independence aa a jazz drummer, the finger dexterity and chord understanding of a jazz guitarist, and you have a register to work with that goes as low as a bass and as high as a saxophone.
Lol
I was a classical music student, (percussionist but not a drummer). And nowadays I want to experiment some music genre. Recently I join a choir, and what a great experience!!
What do you think is better to approach jazz, guitar maybe? I like bass but the majority of bass players are pianist or have some background in that instrument...
All the reasons I mentioned. You have 10 voices (more than any other jazz instrument), you need to be able to move all your limbs in isolation, you need to be able to use all your fingers at once (something no other jazz instrument does), you need to lay down chords while playing melody on top and acting somewhat as a percussive instrument (something that again is not something you'll have to face with any other instrument), and again your range spoils you for choice. "It's easy" is not the reason to get into piano. Oh sure, you hit it and sounds come out, but get past that initial technical barrier with another instrument you like and you're golden.
5 months ago
Anonymous
Actually I take that back, finger picking requires some of that but that's also notoriously hard and not something you necessarily have to do.
I've thought about this a lot, and I think I'd rather lead a happy/good life than a great one. When you read about all these great men that mistreated their families, drank themselves to death, etc. I just don't think it's worth it.
I'd say he was a dick but definitely not the villain considering his methods are the reason Andrew pushed so far. In a weird way they fueled each other to that point
>Also no, you do not have to abandon your gf or your life for "muh passion". Almost all "geniuses" and "prodigies" had a normal life too.
wrong as
I've thought about this a lot, and I think I'd rather lead a happy/good life than a great one. When you read about all these great men that mistreated their families, drank themselves to death, etc. I just don't think it's worth it.
Yeah I do wish the movie kept Fletcher's abuse more psychological and social rather than sometimes physical. No one in the modern day is going to get away with throwing something at a students head in a full room, especially if they pull that sort of thing consistently (although I do get it's obviously a parallel to the historical event where the same thing happened). I think Fletcher keying into Andrew being someone who wants to be the best and fricks with him subtly to push him could happen. On the 'prodigies' part I think it depends on the genre, maybe not in Jazz but in classical performance they do start really young and spend their entire youth learning with older musicians or at various conservatories/orchestras. David Garrett talks about it in his autobiography and it does seem quite common for kids of that caliber.
According to law, he was'nt
he was a gay
The story in the movie about those real-life jazz musicians is bullshit. Jazz musicians were, as a rule, alcoholics, drug addicts, and losers. Not the type to try to resort to Fletcher's method of teaching.
You are probably right but it made sense in the movie. Fletcher just wanted to create a GOAT drummer and Andrew wanted to become that GOAT drummer.
wyte pipo be like: "I AM DIE KAMPFUHRER OF JAZZ BAND, YOU VILL PLAY AS ZE DISCIPLINE MACHINE!"
It's jazz. Just chill.
There are schools of musicians especially from the Free Jazz school that were essentially hacks just making albums to get their next fix, and then there were actual musical geniuses who had perfect pitch, went to juliard, created something that could be really dissected every time they played, and formed ESP with their bandmates. Sometimes both, and probably everything inbetween.
True!
In classical music you can encounter something similar to the movie. Not violent but its an agressive world!
WTF?! Have you even watched the movie you frickin' frick?
>99% vs 1%
Of course to the most he is a villain-like character... It makes them feel uncomfortable because they know that they won't be able endure what Andrew did 'cause they're simply... losers.
Endure what? Hit him. He's old. Make him shut up and tell you specifically what he wants instead of yelling like an old spaz.
>He was a 100% right
If you watch the movie till the end you will see that he in fact wasn't right.
his methods brought the best out of the kid.
>his methods brought the best out of the kid
Clearly not the case since his methods didn't work on the kid before he left.
>watch the movie!
>BUT NOT THE PART WHERE HE IS PROVEN RIGHT!!!
>BUT NOT THE PART WHERE HE IS PROVEN RIGHT!!!
Didn't happen.
>publicly shames the drummer ruining his dream
>drummer storms off
>drummer comes back on stage and proves to teacher he is the best
>just like the story teacher tells about bird
>both smile at each other in recognition
literally happens in the movie. watch til the end and make sure to put your phone down
>kids leaves because he's fricking tired of the terrible methods
>lives a normal life while playing drums in whatever way he feels right rather than being autistic about it
>becomes such a good drummer that even Fletcher admits defeat to him
Fletcher was wrong as proven by the movie.
Low IQ.
Gtfo
>No argument
Concession accepted.
He only got his chops because of Fletcher. Yeah he needed a break but he wouldn't be anybody without busting his ass.
>He only got his chops because of Fletcher
Fletcher got him in the band because say he had the chops for it to begin with.
Did you miss the part where he slaved away and bled on the drum pad to get his chops? I don't think you know what I mean when I say "chops" in the context of music actually, go look it up.
Did you miss the part in which the guy was already good enough to be in the band and improved even after he stopped being in the band because, ultimately, Fletcher was wrong?
Have you ever learned an instrument?
Why are you moving the goalposts?
The drummer achieved, by himself, a level that he couldn't get with Fletcher's methods because Fletcher's methods are flawed and wrong. Fletcher himself nods him in approval at the end confirming this.
Your attempts at pilpuling are futile.
I'm not moving the goalposts, I'm asking if you've ever learned an instrument to get an idea of where you're coming from.
What you're saying doesn't make any sense.
>Get into a school
>Learn techniques at that school
>Use techniques you learned at that school later to prove your worth after a break
You seem to be struggling with the idea that step two even happened, which is what makes me think you have no idea what learning an instrument is like at all. You seem to think all the practicing he did as part of what Fletcher made him strive for did not contribute to his ability to play well, which just would not be the case in real life and was not the case in the movie. Nor would anyone with that potential reach it naturally without insane practice.
>Use techniques you learned at that school
Fletcher didn't teach him shit.
Not like it matters because you are (purposefully, I hope) hyper simplifying the movie if you truly believe that's what it is about. I say "I hope" because if that's not the case then you got unironically filtered.
>Fletcher is wrong because
I'm not arguing about the reason behind why he is wrong and if anything I pointed out that he is wrong over his turboautism which is what you are saying anyways.
>Fletcher didn't teach him shit
I said specifically "what Fletcher made him strive for". I've picked my words very carefully.
>what it is about
We are not even talking about what it is about, we are talking about what actually happens on a surface level in the movie.
He very clearly does practice a lot while in school because of the pressure put on him. Arguing that he had all of his skills before he even went to that school or that he formed all of them afterwards is ridiculous. You don't practice like a motherfricker and not get better.
>You don't practice like a motherfricker and not get better.
Better at what though.
The teachers entire ideology was based on the fact that the cool kids don't like jazz anymore.
So his solution is practice crappy jazz harder.
Doesn't make any sense.
Nothing to do with where he got his skills
Skills don't automatically make something popular.
Studios are full of highly skilled session players that couldn't make a hit to save their life.
>Skills don't automatically make something popular
I never said anything remotely like that
>Arguing that he had all of his skills before he even went to that school or that he formed all of them afterwards is ridiculous
So is arguing that Fletcher is the reason he had those skills too.
The kid was already enrolled in the school and his skills are the reason Fletcher got an interested in him to begin with. The movie makes a point of showing that Fletcher is a fricking autist and getting into his class is a big deal because he is picky as frick but you are somewhat trying to argue that the drummer was "meh" and needed to get shit taught to him which is ridiculous.
>we are talking about what actually happens on a surface level
And on a surface level Fletcher is shown to be blatantly wrong the moment the kid that ignored his moronic "sacrifice your life for the music bro" methodology turns out to be a great drummer.
Fletcher is wrong because devoting yourself obsessively to anything to the detriment of everything and everyone else is pointless and selfish, not because you can reach mastery without insanely hard practice.
>becomes a good drummer
Because of his determination to frick over his teacher. Fricking hell you are an idiot
>Because of his determination to frick over his teacher.
He predicted that he would cross paths randomly with Fletcher this one would offer him to play in a bad in a 'casual' way but that the offer would be a trick to ridicule him so he trained to uno reverso Fletcher's trick? Is that really what you are saying?
they worked.
the other kid was for a certain reason... a homosexual unfortunately. But, let's peel that a layer...
I think the dissimilarity between both cases is on major factor upon which almost all mentor-pupil relationships should be based on... polarity. I don't think Fletcher's spent the time to explain the reasoning behind his methods to the other kid. The moment when they were at the restaurant (if I remember correctly) was crucial.
You're missing the point. The kid actually understood what he was trying to do and accomplished it further. He beat him at his own game and gain. Pay attention zoomer
He’s a villain because his method of getting the best out of a student is by making himself a villain.
>villain helps hero to achieve his dreams
???
the moral of the story was:
>leader of privately owned jazz band is bad because he expects perfection
>leader of publicly owned jazz band is good because he expects perfection
His methods didn't work. The kid needed something to drive him forward and shoving it right back in his teacher's face and making him look like a fricking fool by upstaging him is what did it.
Which required the method in the first place you moron. He specifically wanted his pupil to hate him, to shove it in his face, to be greater than him. It's like the essence of teaching on steroids. Every new generation is an attempt at something greater. I bet you'd be the teacher who brings donuts to class and gives everyone A's for showing up
He's the antagonist. He is not a villain.
>He's the antagonist. He is not a villain.
Fletcher beats, belittles, and yells at his students who are already pressured enough by being in the literal ivy league of music schools who can easily get thrown out if they make a slight frick up.
He's a irl villain with good intentions but messed up actions to achieve them.
>The two most dangerous words in the English language are 'good job.'
i think about this line all the time
this movie is a great filterer. The movie itself tried to play fair by painting the whole situation as grey area but anyone who says it's outright wrong is a gay with massive red flags.
He does kinda look like Jeff Bezos.
Maybe it's an apology for labor abuses.
I've played in jazz bands and it's pretty laid back.
People are given the freedom to express themselves.
This is more like "I went to jazz school" for rich fellas.
Jazz is a music between blues and classical music.
This is more on the classical music side really.
You know a lot of jazz guys were freemasons.
Duke Ellington was one, so was Mozart.
This is not an endorsement of masons.
They are power hungry pederasts.
>so was Mozart
Its hard to play/learn jazz in piano?
It's easy, you just need equal rhythm and much better limb independence aa a jazz drummer, the finger dexterity and chord understanding of a jazz guitarist, and you have a register to work with that goes as low as a bass and as high as a saxophone.
Lol
I was a classical music student, (percussionist but not a drummer). And nowadays I want to experiment some music genre. Recently I join a choir, and what a great experience!!
What do you think is better to approach jazz, guitar maybe? I like bass but the majority of bass players are pianist or have some background in that instrument...
I don't know what's best if you're looking for something easy, I just know it's not piano.
T. pianist
What makes it so difficult?
All the reasons I mentioned. You have 10 voices (more than any other jazz instrument), you need to be able to move all your limbs in isolation, you need to be able to use all your fingers at once (something no other jazz instrument does), you need to lay down chords while playing melody on top and acting somewhat as a percussive instrument (something that again is not something you'll have to face with any other instrument), and again your range spoils you for choice. "It's easy" is not the reason to get into piano. Oh sure, you hit it and sounds come out, but get past that initial technical barrier with another instrument you like and you're golden.
Actually I take that back, finger picking requires some of that but that's also notoriously hard and not something you necessarily have to do.
Thanks for the advice!
>This is not an endorsement of masons.
>They are power hungry pederasts.
No lies detected.
>jazz
>right
He's only a victim to the weak: snowflakes, mediocrities and dysgenic types in general.
>He was a 100% right. How is he a "villain"?
Maybe there is a difference between being correct and being good
I've thought about this a lot, and I think I'd rather lead a happy/good life than a great one. When you read about all these great men that mistreated their families, drank themselves to death, etc. I just don't think it's worth it.
were the old jazz greats even that well trained? i was under the impression that they were all poor and uneducated.
I'd say he was a dick but definitely not the villain considering his methods are the reason Andrew pushed so far. In a weird way they fueled each other to that point
He had no resume to be that c**ty about drumming. You cant force someone to be a creative genius.
He'd be kicked out within a week even from the most prestigous musical school. The entire movie premise is moronic.
Also no, you do not have to abandon your gf or your life for "muh passion". Almost all "geniuses" and "prodigies" had a normal life too.
>Also no, you do not have to abandon your gf or your life for "muh passion". Almost all "geniuses" and "prodigies" had a normal life too.
wrong as
encapsulated so well
Yeah I do wish the movie kept Fletcher's abuse more psychological and social rather than sometimes physical. No one in the modern day is going to get away with throwing something at a students head in a full room, especially if they pull that sort of thing consistently (although I do get it's obviously a parallel to the historical event where the same thing happened). I think Fletcher keying into Andrew being someone who wants to be the best and fricks with him subtly to push him could happen. On the 'prodigies' part I think it depends on the genre, maybe not in Jazz but in classical performance they do start really young and spend their entire youth learning with older musicians or at various conservatories/orchestras. David Garrett talks about it in his autobiography and it does seem quite common for kids of that caliber.
narcissists are evil
>How is he a "villain"?
He isn't, stop watching movies
you don't understand them
>doesn't like that jazz isn't population with the cool kids anymore
>doubles and triples down on same stale jazz standard
Love seeing OP get blown the frick out by a shitposter in his own moronic shitpost thread.
Love posters proving they have no point by passive aggressively responding without quotes or arguments.
They're both wrong, jazz is old and stupid and it's never coming back to the cool kids lunch table.