For what purpose?
Was this Gaiman's plan all along?
just sell Angela to Marvel so they could use her original design for a little while before eventually covering her up?
For what purpose? Was this Gaiman's plan all along?
For what purpose?
Was this Gaiman's plan all along?
just sell Angela to Marvel so they could use her original design for a little while before eventually covering her up?
"Frick Todd" is what Gaiman was thinking.
Gay
Yes, that's why he sold the character to them. So that they could cover her up.
Not because he really wanted to frick Todd over with the knowledge of that he not only lost the rights to her but now they will never belong to him again.
>frick Todd over
It was the other way around. She was Gaiman's character, not McFarlane's, and everything at Image was supposed to be creator-owned.
Mcfarlane did all the busy work of designing, illustrating, publishing, and toy making to make an idea Neil crapped out after lunch profitable. What really happened is companygays and writegays hated Todd for not staying in his lane as an artist. Neil was probably bragging how he fleeced a million dollars for 1 book out of Todd then got embarrassed when Todd sold so many toys of characters he cocreated without a contract.
>Mcfarlane did all the busy work of designing, illustrating, publishing, and toy making to make an idea Neil crapped out after lunch profitable.
Cool. Still not his property.
If he designed her, at minimum he's the co-creator, that's how it's always worked in comics.
Except McFarlane wasn't content with co-creator status. The dispute started precisely because he claimed full ownership of the characters Gaiman had invented, and because he claimed Gaiman had only contributed on a work-for-hire basis. This despite McFarlane's having previously assured Gaiman that that the characters belonged to Gaiman. The courts awarded co-creator status to both as a compromise.
But that did not and does not change the fact that co-creator status is not what McFarlane offered Gaiman. Hence the eventual settling of the matter out of court, with the rights going to the person who'd been promised them in the first place.
There's no injustice there, just karma.
Spite. Gaiman doesn't give a shit about comics, he just did Sandman to get attention for his regular books.
Funny how the internet has scrubbed the truth about that lawsuit.
How Marvel paid for Gayman's lawsuit in exchange for him creating "Marvel 1602". How Neil actually wanted "Miracleman" and didn't give a shit about Medieval Spawn or Angela. Neil won the initial lawsuit but in the end had to settle with Todd later cause Marvel didn't want to fund the lawsuit no more.
Todd gets to keep making money on reprints. Gayman, as part of the settlement, is the public victor. It's also really funny cause before the first lawsuit happened Angela was dead in the comic . I'd say Gayman at least got paid but that might not even be the case.
Medieval Spawn and Angela, fifty percent owned by Todd.
Dark Ages Spawn and Tiffany, still all Todd.
But hey, I hear Gayman got to do Miracle Man again...Not really cause he's owned by Marvel now as they somehow got the rights to him in the lawsuit they funded. But that's the Gayman for ya.
MM rights were part of it but Gaiman thought Todd wasn't paying enough royalties from his creations of all those toys Macfarlane was making for spawn and not paying his writers anything(orlower that what they should have legally been getting)
If that Matttt video is right, Todd's deal was $100,000USD upfront just for the script (which is MUCH MUCH higher than what even a good writer is worth). The reality is Todd wasn't thinking about character rights or any of that shit and Neil used that as a wedge issue to get to Miracleman...and failed.
This is a read between the lines type situation. You don't see Alan Moore, Dave Sims, or Frank Miller working up a stink over who owns what. And that's surprising given Alan Moore is very anal about that sort of thing.
Morrison created Redeemer
>Let's Todd do whatever with it, no lawsuit.
>And that's surprising given Alan Moore is very anal about that sort of thing.
To be fair Alan Moore did like the "Justice League Unlimited" adaptation of his "For the Man Who Has Everything" story
I didn't like it
The other writers understood it was work for hire on Todd book, I mean Moore 90's career was almost all work for hire.
It's shocking isn't it? Alan Moore has no problems with Todd yet has been fighting DC over the rights of Watchmen (which is really fanficiton of Charlton Comics character) for decades. That alone makes the situation with Neil super sus.
Moore only wants the rights to Watchmen cause he doesn't want more stories.
>Moore 90's career was almost all work for hire
The 90s was also his most "independent" decade.
It's alright, but the comic is much better.
>The 90s was also his most "independent" decade.
...huh? Wouldn't that be the 2000s by far?
In the early 90s, he was working on From Hell, A Small Killing, Lost Girls, and Big Numbers, the last one initially being published by his own company, Mad Love, which didn't last. By the end of the 90s, he started on America's Best Comics, though by the time he got going, Jim Lee sold it to DC.
In the 2000s, he did a Lovecraft comic and completed Lost Girls, but in the 2010s, he came out with Neonomicon, more LoEG, Providence, Crossed 100+, and a few others.
So it's either the 1990s or the 2010s.
See it's shit like this where I'm really not sure what to think. I know it's more proper to side with the creative who go allegedly screwed but then you hear shit like this where he got paid an ass ton for a single goddamn issue and it's not like Angela is a character he can actually use outside of the material given her origin is tied heavily to an existing property. And I don't want to sound like a dick to how some the creatives in the past have been treated because it has been shitty but it's also not like this is out of nowhere either. This all would have been agreed upon upfront. So if Todd says no royalties well you accepted the check. This isn't some Bill Finger situation where you're a down on your luck die in poverty situation because you got screwed.
Also have you read the comic lately? I mean I'm a fan of 90s shit myself and I got two words. Phoned in.
I like this outfit so much more and I'm not even trying to be a coomer. Although I imagine it would be torture to have to constantly draw it. Can they legally use this look? The eyes being changed is such a downgrade. It's kinda weird she hasn't been mentioned in any of the Thor movies.
They already made "Hell" his sister, now there's an "Angel" sister too?
>it's not like Angela is a character he can actually use outside of the material given her origin is tied heavily to an existing property.
This is why I find the "lol ironic huh!?" quips dumb. When people talk about creators rights they generally mean the big characters.
The funny thing is that for every other creator Todd hires? The royalties are a great deal. Capullo has said they’re random but they’re solid checks. gaiman was insulted that he’d get a paid royalties like a lowly comic artist instead of a prestige writer like he would at DC.
DC weird special treatment of Gaiman never made sense given their where other writers that made them more money but got paid less, something behind the scenes we don't know about.
Like the fact writers have to ask Gaiman for permission to use his Sandman characters even though technically DC owns those characters outright.
Is that something in an old contract or is it more like a weird dc tradition ? What happens if they don't ask his permission.
Vertigo contracts were notoriously stupid. If any of the stuff goes out of print, DC loses the rights. That's why Jamie Delano has the rights to "The Horrorist" despite it featuring John Constantine and his magnum opus AD2020 Visions.
Thanks to digital, that is no longer an issue.
Yeah that's wild cause good chunk of Vertigo isn't creator owned even if the DCU books had weird rules about how they can't really reference anything (even though before Vertigo they could).
Gaiman’s work sells to “ The Bookstore Crowd” and DC is desperate to pander to them.
Tiffany was hotter anyways
Does Neil own the entire concept of the Angels or just Angela?
Cause could have given us more Tiffany since she never really died
and Miracle Man sells lie shit after tall those legal problems
Why the hell did Marvel go thru all that shit for Miracle Man anyway? It doesn’t fit at all with Marvel’s catalogue.
Literally because he was called Marvelman
Alan Moore AND Gaiman prestige.
Basically this. When it's finally done they want to have it as an evergreen set of prestigious acclaimed trades. It's not working out for them, nobody really seems to care for the new material, and anyone who wanted the 80s issues likely already has it by now.
McFarlane should've won, every other writer understood the rules but yet Gaiman spreg out.
The Gayman didn't actually win. Part of the settlement was that the judge declare the Gayman as "the winner". Funny isn't it?
Neil was just more charming/well spoken than Todd who is basically a dumb jock
Neil never cared about the character
>Was this Gaiman's plan all along?
I imagine there was no plan. He just saw an opportunity to wash his hands of all the bullshit surrounding the character while getting paid for it by Marvel. Whatever happened after that was none of his concern.
What was the old bullshit?
Todd McFarlane hired a few famous comic writers to write a Spawn story, one of them being Gaiman who created the character Angela in his Spawn story. What exactly happened is a bit of a he said she said, but Gaiman claimed he owned the character while McFarlane said it had been simple work for hire and he didn't need to pay Gaiman anything for stuff like reprints and merchandising (which at the time was highly ironic since one of the other writers who had worked on this project, Dave Sim, had used his story as literally just a long rant where Spawn was lectured on how important it is that characters are owned by their creators). Gaiman ended up sueing McFarlane and was eventually given full ownership of Angela. Shortly after that, he sold the character to Marvel who hamfistedly jammed her into Thor's backstory.
Picture related for Dave Sim's story.
Note the subtle symbolism.
aren't most marvel characters created by multiple people? like someone comes up with a name another makes a costume and a third guy makes a backstory?
A lot of Marvel and DC characters had at least two people involved in their creation, though that does sometimes open a can of worms over exactly how much work each of them actually did compared with the other, it's usually just two old guys with bad, self-serving memories each claiming the other did nothing important.
And yes, a lot of characters, especially villains and lower-tier heroes who were part of team books could get created with minimal detail and background to them, and would get fleshed out by one or more later writers.
>which at the time was highly ironic since one of the other writers who had worked on this project, Dave Sim, had used his story as literally just a long rant where Spawn was lectured on how important it is that characters are owned by their creators).
I never saw this as hypocritical;Medieval Spawn and Angela are derivative concepts meant to exist in Spawn's universe, not standalone ideas. It's like if everywriter who made a side character in a TV show got residuals.
>Shortly after that, he sold the character to Marvel who hamfistedly jammed her into Thor's backstory.
With a blatant but hamfisted copy of She-Ra's origin.
And then covered her up and made her a lesbian.
My big question is why Marvel ever even wanted her in the first place. They got plenty of characters who already fill a similar niche.
Probably out of spite for McFarland being a founder of Image comics. It's impressive the lenghs people will go to spite someone (as seen with Mr. Gayman on this thread).
Yeah but it was how many years after the fact? This isn't like she got brought over immediately after the image hype died down. This was so far removed from the fact, I've met people who are surprised Spawn is even still a thing at all. The editors of marvel at the time all got shuffled around since.
They financed the lawsuit, anon
You gotta remember a lot of those same people are probably still working there
I can remember watching a video by some Comics Youtuber that was pointing out there are people who work for Marvel who weren't even born in 1992 when Image formed, but see the Image artists as "traitors". That's how entrenched a viewpoint it is there.
He wanted her to be one of those characters that constantly crosses over like her being the Phoenix but probably dropped that because the character couldn't stand on her own as is plus frick toddy
Because frick Todd. There isn't much to go on but we all know the image five screwed over Marvel big time in the 90s and this was probably a good way to slight him. Besides selling his art on merch that is. It's not like Marvel pushed Angela very hard anyway, she's Thor's sister but outside of a short lived run and a few cameos she's barely appeared.
I'm just amazed at how quickly Angela went from "Angela" to a very generic Thor character.
>could have been like a cross between Ghost Rider and Elsa Bloodstone, and been used to explore the mythos of Marvel's Heaven (something not really done outside of GR and random stuff like late 90s Punisher and PAD's Scarlet Spider) and been a positive representation of it (most appearances have been unflattering) as its Earthly champion/agent
>instead awkwardly shoehorned into Thor's mythos, given a troony lover, and even more awkwardly shoehorned into the GotG and now just sort of bumming around, not really doing much
Marvel failed her hard as Gaiman, same way Marvel failed Conan by giving him to Jason Aaron of all people who emasculated him hard, also the fact that conan doesn't work without Sonja at his side.
And Ghost Rider and Elsa got more relevancy of late since Elsa is a living bloodstone and Blaze is back.
Because Quesada and the BND gang HATES Todd McFarlane more than they hate DC.
They are nothing but a bunch of spiteful homosexuals.
Do the Spawn TPBs include the issues with angela?
Yeah. Todd still owns Angela.
He didn't want her at all to begin with, he just wanted Todd to pay him. Somehow during that whole clusterfrick it morphed into him getting her. So it was no surprise when he turned around and sold her.
Huh, i wouldn't be surprised if mr Nail Gayman had more dirt hidden. I got a feeling he could turn out like J. K. Rowling in a few years if he isn't careful. Both are (were in Rowling's case) beloved writers by leftists and progressive types due to writing the stuff they like and/or having some of the same political beliefs. maybe it's a british thing
They removed everything good about Angela's character to make a new girlboss self insert for fat chicks. You wanna talk about demoralization, look no further.
For all the connection she has to her original Marvel really did just more or less create a new character from the ground up. And I don't know much, but I bet they'd even be in the clear if they actually still called her Angela, given it's a first name and not a trademark title.
He just wanted to give Todd another middle finger. And Todd deserves it.
The funnier story which nobody ever talks about is the Canadian hockey player who sued McFarlane for using his name on a mafia don character. McFarlane lost that one hard and had to pay damages and also now has to retroactively change the name of that character in all the reprints. And that's a minor villain, not a major character or anyone that McFarlane marketed hard.
Todd must have the shittiest lawyers to lose that one. The character is nothing like the hockey player other than using his name as a nickname
Kino
the plan was to proof Todd that venom wasn't his creation, using his own statement to steal angela and gain miracleman marvel rights again.
If there's anything I've learned from this thread, its that there seems to be a group of people who seethe at Todd and anything Spawn. Just outright vitriol cause he's somehow still around at 300+ issues.
Are there Marvel employees on the board? Are you just venting? Is it jealousy? Todd may have "lost" the lawsuit against the Gayman but he's still holding Marvel over a barrel with his book that hasn't been rebooted five times over the decade.
Pic unrelated. I need more Spawn images to shitpost.
>Am I wrong for ignoring the facts and being a shameless McFarlane fanboy?
>No, everyone else is just being paid by Marvel to post about two-decades old issue on a Mongolian basketweaving board!
Bruh.
idk
>For what purpose?
To extract another paycheck out of a dying industry. It does you no good to own the rights to a character that barely anybody knows about except a small corner of a small and terminally ill industry that is very likely to not exist in 2030. Gaiman saw the first Ford's rolling off the assembly line and decided to sell his inventory of horse drawn carriages.