why did westeros allow a bunch of moronic constantly rebelling pirates to live undisturbed off their shores? why did the starks allow the boltons to continue to exist as a noble house that continually rebelled and wore their family members as cloaks? i dont understand
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because the series needed vengeful villains?
yeah, honestly it makes zero sense why the greyjoys should even be in power. they tried to revolt for no reason, caused a bunch of damage, then got their shit absolutely pushed in by king robert.
robert should have just taken their land installed some actual loyal rulers and executed the moronic greyjoys, but no because… the houses just cant be replaced in the story, okay! they ruled for 20000 years, alright!
Greyjoys are odd. I think the series would be better served if the Greyjoys had been removed from power entirely after the rebellion and they put some pompous puppet family in charge there, or even Lannisters. When Robb marches south, the Greyjoys tap into local populism and reclaim the Iron Islands.
It seems more consistent this way, explains the viking culture and gives extra weight to Robb's decision to send Theon to treat with them, thinking that their shared hatred of Lannisters makes for a natural alliance.
Ned Stark having one heir hostage is no where near punishment enough to for the Greyjoys and them being an ancient family that somehow survived this long doesn't make sense, I am with OP on that.
Boltons are fine, it's established that they haven't been edgelords for generations. It's strange in the show that Ramsay gets away with public displays of sadism with zero repercussions.
Good take have a (you). Although I don't think it's that crazy in the context of Bobby B being new to the throne and not wanting to spooky the other major household by immediately deposing one of them and also generally being known as a bit of a well-intentioned idiot. I'm a bit fuzzy but didn't he kill most of Balon's kids and banish Euron? I don't think it's wildly out of character to chalk it up to Bobby B being Bobby B.
>I'm a bit fuzzy but didn't he kill most of Balon's kids and banish Euron?
I'm not sure about being officially banished by the Crown I remember it as him realizing Balon was fricked and taking off after he burned the Lannister fleet, if I missed something please correct. Balon's other two sons died in battle, possibly both at Pyke.
Balon banished Euron because he was fricking Victarion's wife and being a general nuisance.
Didn't Euron also start the rebellion by burning Lannister ships though?
>Boltons are fine, it's established that they haven't been edgelords for generations. It's strange in the show that Ramsay gets away with public displays of sadism with zero reprocussions
Aye, in the books he literally got captured by Rodrick Cassel for murdering a noble lady, and is in the dungeons of winterfell when Theon captured it
The Boltons used edginess and cruelty to ensure stability. Iirc it was hinted/stated that the area controlled by the Boltons had some of the least crimes and chaos due to fear
Robert's whole philosophy was that he thought he could turn foes into friends easily. (Which is pretty true, since he has like a 90 percent success rate with), so he applied it after he crushed them in the rebellion. It's just that the Greyjoys are such seaweed addled c**ts that they don't want to be friends with anybody.
Because defeating a nation in war doesn't just magically make the land and its people yours. You can't move in your own people without some sort of incentive to do so, you can't get rid of the locals who hate you without genociding them. Installing a "king" on the island of your choice won't achieve anything because their existing governing body will just work around him. When you win a war against a violent neighbour you basically have three routes. You go scorched earth and kill large swathes of the civilian population in order to install your own civilians and governing body, you sign treatises that weaken the defeated enemy while strengthening yourself, or you force the enemy into some sort of fealty. The Starks did a combination of options 2 and 3 by sanctioning the waters the greyjoys were allowed to enter and enforcing reparations. And of course they took theon as a ward. Obviously this was a mistake because the starks overestimated how much the greyjoys cared about bloodlines. Having the son of the king in their possession really was a shit way to go about it but there's really not much you can do to pacify the greyjoys without doing some aegon shit.
What does humiliating your enemy do? Like if I conquered a nation and immediately started brainwashing the children to cut off their genitals and get addicted to hard drugs? Just assume i convinced their boys to think they're women and their girls to frick the absolute lowest filth in society. How would that make me look in their eyes?
You have an immediate, constant, and unending revolt on your hands that will require you to stop doing that, kill literally everybody, or be deposed and executed by your highest ranking vassals after you spend 10 years bleeding their men, money, and resources in your weird fetish campaign.
>you can't get rid of the locals who hate you without genociding them
So why not do that then?
the greyjoys had one of the largest navy's in the 7 kingdoms, beating them on the mainland is easy enough but trying to fight them on the sea and iron Isles and wipe them out would be much harder, Robert also wouldn't want to lose their navy so it would be better to work out a treaty with them rather than get into a long drawn out naval conflict with them and weaken his fleet and the greyjoys
robert literally destroyed the greyjoy fleet, doing so was sort of required to invade the islands.
hey, dumbass?
care to explain to me what exactly happened during the..
-frankish conquests
-the norman conquests
-the crusades
-the northern crusades
Historically seems it was quite easy. Like the Norman's just took Britain from the Saxons or like the Vandals just took over Sicily and Carthago.
All you really need is enough ruthlessness.
>pirates
Its part of their "economy" and trades. Kind of like how the US keeps tab on dealing arms dealers and black market.
>Boltons
They have a treaty. And in the books Boltons are really useful, excluding Ramsay, his day and his army were more or less one of the strongest part of the Winterfell region.
They went wars with them against the South, against the iron Islands, in the Great war, in the first Wall expansion etc.
Tldr, despite them being rebellious, they're just useful. The only reason what happened in the later season happened was because of the starks were really weakened.
Imagine the boltons being like the Germany in 1940s.
Iirc there was a time that Bolton's got replaced but were quickly challenged by the boltons and they won. They're just one of those oldest houses that the only way to solve this is to completely eradicate them.
And as Littlefinger say, why go to the trouble of killing them while hurting your manpower in the process when you can just control them, keep them in line while they slowly bleed out for you.
what was westeros trading with the iron islands the iron islands can barely grow any crops and i'm imagining don't have the most lucrative misc goods and finery exports
homie its IRON islands.
They have mines. Not to mention a lot of them are either fishermen or explorers (lowkey pirates) who are more of an open world pillagers than most of the westeros kingdoms ever did.
Non-Theon Ironborn chapters were often my favorite in the books. No idea where they get their manpower though. Greyjoy Rebellion then WotFK happens and they're starting another war under Euron?
Greyjoys were more or less the vikings in early England or the Skillege in Witcher world.
They're not that scarce in population lol. They're just usually in the sea or in the mines. They're not the richest in the North and more or less viewed as poor cus well, they're just next to the Lannisters region.
They gain wealth in stealing shit all over the world.
They have the ships, they can mass produce swords and armor... They're just getting old most of their workforce and army. Not to mention their "king" is old and doesn't have a male heir.
In the books, personally they were alright, its just the are always other things that are happening else where that are more interesting to me. 2bh, their main role in the story is to pretty much to feel like the Starks and their kingdom are completely fricked and surrounded. (north m, the walkers, east, the Boltons, west, greyjoys, and south, everyone else).
As for their role later in the series (around season 5-6 in the show ), iirc they were supposed to be the magicians/light sword carrier (another fake up and coming) and another supporter for denaerys.
So pretty much what happened in the show was more or less a shock not in a good GOT way but a shockingly bad development.
Its just no fricking way Euron would rather frick a lion instead of a dragon.
Just spit-balling here because nunadis mattas.
But maybe it would have been better to merge Victarion's story with Euron and after he's crowned king they should have had him go to Mereen and smash the slaver fleet from behind, turning the tide of the siege. Wait was there a siege?
I just realized I've completely forgotten what happened with Dany after she burned the Khals on the show.
Euron could have been one of the greatest characters in television history. A badass pirate wizard whos been to the most mysterious and remote locations with a crew of mutes hell bent on unleashing eldritch god powers and causing an apocalypse. And look at what we got instead
>A badass pirate wizard whos been to the most mysterious and remote locations with a crew of mutes hell bent on unleashing eldritch god powers and causing an apocalypse
Read what your wrote and consider if this actually sounds cool or sounds like something that a moronic 13 year old came up with.
The only difference between edgy shit from a 13 year old and great writing is the execution not the idea.
Euron in the books is pretty badass, nothing like he is in the show
The Starks, a backwoods Scotland tier clan with no notable navy and an army consisting of militia, was able to beat the Ironborn singlehandedly. If the Iron Throne wanted they could wipe out the Islanders within a decade.
Fathack just sucks major donkey dick at world building. Letting the Iron islands persist would be the equivalent of England with full control of Ireland, Wales, and Scotland letting the Isle of Man be an independent pirate nation constantly raiding their shores just cause. If he had've stuck the islands between Essos and Westeros at least it could be said they let the Iron Islands alone because if either side ever mounted a siege they could just pivot toward the other continent and become a staging ground.
Probably a diversity program for votes. Open borders to let Black person mongrol species in.
>why did westeros allow a bunch of moronic constantly rebelling pirates to live undisturbed off their shores?
They're a buffer against other people. Anyone wants to get to westeros proper by the ocean they have to go through them. The enemy of my enemy is my friend
>Anyone wants to get to westeros proper by the ocean
there's no one west of westeros
They used to be much more powerful. They were the ones who built Harrenhall. Then they got wrecked and weren't much of a threat to anyone.
Aside from that one attack on Winterfell they accomplished absolutely nothing of note so that’s probably a contributing factor
The ironborn had been slowly converting to a more mainland culture before the a couple recent rulers went back on all the changes. The boltons had not done anything in recent history and had been loyalish.
This probably only applies to the noble families. I doubt Balon goes into town and demands some random peasant toss a fish he caught back into the ocean and wait until a Lannister peasant fishes it back out and robs him of it.
Because crushing rebellions to the last man doesn't work?
The whole series is about how feuds will continue no matter how hard you try to win once and for all
>and who... are you...
>the proud lord said...
Tywins chimpout on castamere cost the Lannisters plenty though
And made sure none of their vassals aspired to be anything but meh-tier yesmen like Amory Lorch.
Easier to do that with two smaller houses within marching distance of your castle. Much harder to do it with an entire archipelago of irritable buttholes who have a bigger fleet than most other houses.
Because when they arent rebelling they bring value to the realm in both trade and resources. Also you never know when having some pirates on your side might come in handy.
Lmao literally the entirety of ASOIF makes no sense if you ACTUALLY think about it.
Westeros spends literal years even decades in winter. Considering how just a few months of bad winter could have been enough to wipe out an entire village during the medieval period, there would have to be MASSIVE stockpiles of food in preparation for winter. Not only that but a way to preserve the food as well. Also a society that endured such extreme conditions would likely not have a very "European" method of feudalism with many vassals and layers of vassalage (which emerged due to succesion law, and the general net-positive of a single European village). Instead it be more in the vain of russian feudalism with powerful boyars ruling over vast swauves of land under a powerful centralized system.
GRRM is a complete hack. I do understand why people actually watch or read this shit.
the south isn't affected by the winter much and ships provisions to the northern regions, who rely on aid/imports during long winters though.
then why does every old southern gay still hit you with the:
>oh my sweet summer child
Just admit GRRM is a hack and his worldbuilding makes no sense, it's not just winter, thats only the start of it.
Not that guy but there is no constructed setting that actually makes complete and total sense other than MAYBE Tolkien.
Searching for flaws and yelling "Gotcha!" isn't proof of anything really. Just like trying to shit on GoT because it's popular and the vast majority of people who've read it love it doesn't make you cool, smart, or unique.
If you have trouble digesting the above just remember that GRRM is rich and you aren't, he's famous and you aren't, and the world loves his books and if you wrote anything nobody would like it but your mom.
Have a good day amigo
There's already exposition that explains that they had to send out their elderly population to die in the snows in order to have food for the rest. Besides, places like Winterfell have heating baths underneath it that keep people warm during the winter.
>They need massive stockpiles of food to survive the long winters
They have equally long summers to get that done, and since it's always been like that, they developed farming cycles to match it.
>it would be like russian feudalism
Well the whole concept is British/French/Spanish medieval culture in one big continent under one king, so thats not too far off.
NTA, but a major benefit of a normal seasonal cycle is that winter kills diseases and parasites in the soil and allows the ground to rest. Spoilage would also be an impossible challenge, winters seemingly last 5-20 years and you'd think if the stores are even a bit damp then everyone dies. Somehow they're able to store decades worth of grain properly stored and keep livestock alive while living in a world where everyone loves total war and brutal scorched earth tactics seemingly without any opposition. All the rulers must have lived through several winters, yet Tyrion has trouble convincing anyone to start storing grain. Armies are free to burn fields and kill farmers with abandon seemingly dooming them all, nobles and commoners alike, to starve without a second thought. Everyone is totally incapable of developing any sort of altruistic drive or even a bit of foresight despite their hellish living environment.
All these factors, yet somehow the flora and fauna is seemingly identical to continental Europe and Westeros still hasn't been swept by some sort of total extinction event.
>winters seemingly last 5-20 years
no they don't you just pulled that out of your ass. they are like 10 years at the absolute max
It's actually explained in the books.
In the books, Westeros was experiencing their longest "summer" season in centuries (literally decades of year round summer seasons) and you had a running gag that certain characters that knew that literal winter was coming, that most of the current generation was FRICKED because they never experienced winter conditions/life during wintertime when food supplies were limited to whatever the frick you had hid back and had stored away.
Adding to this, you had characters explicitly point out that the war of the five kings came at the worst possible time as you had entire regions having to spend food resources that could have last them during a long decades long winter on feeding their troops and having their male population off fighting and dying in war rather than working the fields to get in as many extra harvests needed for said kingdoms and peasants could live off of during the impending winter.
they where fishermen gay. they where in a globalized westeros in which they didn't need to pirate as much.
>Iron Islands
>don't mine iron
sounds like a bunch of Africans that can't dig up minerals worth billions unless someone smart pays them a pittance to
They got slaves to mine their iron, moron.
Obliterating houses is a big deal. It’s what earned Tywin such a ruthless reputation. It’s also not logistically easy because so many of the elites are intermarried, related, or friends. You kill one, you piss off 3 more. That sort of thing.
Because this show was poorly written and it's about time you homosexuals started realizing that.
Because prior to the series, the sole time since Westeros was unified, where the Ironslavs actually did that to Westeros, Robert gave them collective PTSD and told them not to do that anymore.
Rest of the time they have to the equivalent of a New World Voyage to be allowed to raid.
Adding to this, both Ned and Robert didn't have the stomach for total war/genocide of the Ironborn and the other major houses (Tyrells, Lannisters) didn't give a frick and Stannis was still fricking pouting that he got fricked over in favor of Renly by Robert reward-wise for helping Robert get made King.
Also, would not be shocked if Ned sold Robert on the idea that by taking Theon (Balon's sole surviving male heir) hostage and raising him as a proper Northern type alongside his sons, that he could mold Theon into a right proper puppet leader who would keep the Iron Island folk in line for good once Ned sent him back to rule the place on Balon's death.
>why did westeros allow a bunch of moronic constantly rebelling pirates to live undisturbed off their shores?
the same reason why England allowed it for 300 years
Naval assaults are pretty dangerous anon, especially in the middle ages and all to conquer a people who are culturally moronic pirates.
shows over, no one cares, go screw!
BUILD ME A FLEET OF A THOUSAND SHIPS USING.... THIS HERRING
>we take what's ours without working for anything
Sounds like a bunch of entitled Black folk.
they are obviously based on snowBlack folk, northern Europeans, vikings. They were living in huts while western Europe was conquering the entire world.
Who did they butcher worse Dorne or Iron Jobbers?
Dorne. The only remotely tolerable characters were Oberyn and his brother. Prince Trystane might have been had he not died as soon as he showed up. The only good thing Ellaria and the Sandsnakes did was give Cersei time to chew up her villainy.
The only character worth anything from the Ironborn is Theon, and maybe snippets of Euron when he's taking out the trash (killing Sandsnakes) or being a troll to Jaime to highlight how bad the show had gotten at that point. Yara sucks.
Euron is much better in the books, he's a real evil frick not just a surly yob
I know, but the question was which region the show fricked up more.
>Hello, we are the Starks, rulers of The North. Here are some of our bannermen:
>The loyal and reliable Manderlys
>The loyal and reliable Umbers
>The loyal and reliable Mormonts
>The loyal and reliable Reeds
>The sadistic house of pure evil with the flayed man banner to symbolise all the people they flay alive, with whom we had bloody and merciless generational warfare with for hundreds of years
>I'm sure they're loyal and reliable too
I wonder why a house would have a fearsome sigil? the Bolton's rebellions were like hundreds of years ago. Most of them were fine, for example Rooses son was a stand-up guy, the problem is that roose is obviously a psychopath and an idiot (he will never be able to hold the north after killing thousands of northern peasants and nobles at a wedding). just some info for you since you never read the books 🙂
>just give the guy who looks like a vampire and comes from the house that fought yours for generations control of your entire infantry bro
You don't sow or mine which is why you're a prisoner on a cold barren shite rock
The pirate shit is moronic but the Boltons are the guys who keep rebels on line because they understand the street
The Iron Islands have little resources and would need constant and very expensive supply convoys to keep any army or garrison force charged with breaking the Ironborn's resolve. It's similar to the same reason the Iron Throne hasn't taken or fortified the Stepstones. It's easier to just fortify the towns and places the Ironborn can go than try a very expensive long term campaign, especially since the Ironborn's hangups make them morons who keep attacking places like Seagard designed explicitly to repel them.
That and the Ironborn, like all viking pirate yokels make good distractions during war when on your side. They have a big and economically stimulating fleet that trades all over during peacetime.
The Starks didn't do anything about the Boltons because they're super into the old traditions that say extinguishing a house and family is usually bad mojo unless they absolutely positively deserve it, and simply contesting with the Starks for overlordship of the North, albeit with some heavy-handed terror tactics, wasn't enough for that.
Plus, once the Boltons knelt to the Starks, the latter had a nice bad cop in their back pocket to use when their good cop routine didn't work on its own.
it was dumb putting the iron islands on the west side of westeros tbh
No, the dumb part was making the Sunset Sea a Bermuda triangle instead of another busy place of Planetos. The area around the Bite and White Harbor before it existed being prone to pirates and viking raiders made sense given it faces the Narrow Sea.
Having so many big cities and ports on the western coast of Westeros doesn't really work if the Sunset Sea is unnavigable. I suppose you could say they're vestiges from when each kingdom was a separate entity with its own trade policy, and that it's easier to ship goods by sea than long overland routes from eastern ports, but it still feels weird, especially since the North and Dorne both eschew this by having their ports on the eastern shore.
I'm sure if they could stop them they would.
>why did westeros allow a bunch of moronic constantly rebelling pirates to live undisturbed off their shores?
Actually trying to genocide the Ironborn would be both difficult and grim to do, I think the Lannisters even attempted to kill them all once in Westeros history and failed. Ned and Robert probably had a plan to install Theon as the ruler of the Isles when Balon died and fold their culture in that way, gradually and with puppet rulers, sort of like what the US tries to do with other countries.
>why did the starks allow the boltons to continue to exist as a noble house that continually rebelled and wore their family members as cloaks?
Those antics are far in the past and the Starks were savage during that time period as well. The old North was a scary place.
will stannis burn shireen in the books?
No. King Stannis maintains his seat at the Wall. The Shadowfort iirc. Queen Selyse, Princess Shireen and Lady Melisandre are all there.
Stannis is far to the south on the March to Winterfell.
The most common speculation is that if Shireen burns, it will be Mely who does it on her own initiative and most likely with Selyse's permission.
No, because GRRM will never finish it.