Has this movie (or book) ever made anyone seriously question his faith or find the whole doctrine of salvation to be flawed? A lot of christians actually seem to think that you should never ever deny your faith even when it could save a person, typically by shifting all responsibility on the man doing the killing which I personallt think is a bit too deterministic and simplifies responsibility. Others however believe that there is no greater sacrifice than sacrificing one's own soul for the life of others.
Did the Japs literally manage to do what the Romans could not and hack Christianity?
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>A lot of christians actually seem to think that you should never ever deny your faith even when it could save a person,
My experience reading comments on this movie. Especially from catholics. It wouldn't be a movie if it wasn't such a hot topic. You are expected to lay fown your life for the faith. That's why martyrs are revered in christianity.
>How then can it be said without the greatest perverseness, that to the end one man may have life of the body, it is another man's duty to incur death of the soul? The love of our neighbor has its bounds in each man's love of himself. You shall love, says He, your neighbor as yourself. How can a man be said to love as himself that man, for whom that he may secure a temporal life, himself loses life eternal? Since if for his temporal life he lose but his own temporal life, that is not to love as himself, but more than himself: which exceeds the rule of sound doctrine. Much less then is he by telling a lie to lose his own eternal for another's temporal life. His own temporal life, of course, for his neighbor's eternal life a Christian man will not hesitate to lose: for this example has gone before, that the Lord died for us. To this point He also says, This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. For none is so foolish as to say that the Lord did other than consult for the eternal salvation of men, whether in doing what He has charged us to do, or in charging us to do what Himself has done. Since then by lying eternal life is lost, never for any man's temporal life must a lie be told.
- Augustine, "On Lying"
There was this one Polish priest who got sent to Auschwitz and prefered to be shot over stomping on a rosary.
If you've never seen or even heard of this happening you're either too young to be on Cinemaphile or from commiefornia/ another commie shithole. BTFO.
>Others however believe that there is no greater sacrifice than sacrificing one's own soul for the life of others.
Jesus is literally God. he didnt sacrifice jack shit. remember that
This is why Christus Victor is the only sensible theory of atonement.
>Has this movie (or book) ever made anyone seriously question his faith or find the whole doctrine of salvation to be flawed?
No, I think the main message of the film is that salvation can be achieved in silence. You don't need to make a show of your faith or create converts to elevate your consciousness and ultimately realize the supreme being.
>"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen."
Matthew 6:5-6
You should spread the word of Christ if you possess the necessary the cognitive abilities, but there is more than one way to do that. When Christ says "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me", he wasn't talking about his body or his exact words - he was speaking of his general philosophy and the example he set for us, which aren't fundamentally unique to him.
Beware of the simpletons and dogma robots who've been vulgarizing Christ's philosophy for centuries. If someone tells you that you must worship Christ or else some anthropomorphic creator will send you to a fire-and-brim-stoney place when you die, they're not worth paying any attention to.
Wow, somebody who understands the Bible, what a rare sight! God bless you brother.
Same to you, friend
That verse you posted is about engaging in vanity and insincere spiritual discipline under the guise of worship, and not really about overtly practicing Christian faith or spreading the word of christ. The modern day equivalent would be a normoid wearing their cross necklass or having some jesus fish bumpersticker [So that others may see.] But yes true sincere communion with god happens in Solitude
Yes, I posted it to back up my claim that it's not necessary to make a show of one's faith. But spiritual posturing can come in many forms.
Take this
, for example.
>"There was this one Polish priest who got sent to Auschwitz and preferred to be shot over stomping on a rosary"
What did this gesture accomplish? Did he really think he could be of greater service to people by getting shot instead of stomping on some beads? Maybe he did, in which case, God bless him in all his foolishness. But I have a feeling it was a combination of ego (i.e. a desire to impress) and a fear of damnation.
Leave the martyrdom to Christ
>When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.
This verse has often been used to justify martyrdom.
Christians think that a guy that looked at his neighbor's wife with lust a few too many times 3000 years ago still burns in that magical realm of eternal torment because he did not get on his knees and pray hard enough over it. He's still down there because of some bullshit like that.
>he thinks praying matters
>he thinks God didn't give man free will
>he thinks that freedom isn't the essence of human consciousness and root of all sin and blessedness
Yep.
you got filtered anon
You had secret Christians hanging around all the way up to Western re-opening so not really
I was on the path of losing my faith until I read Paradise Lost, then I regained it. It's funny to me how people claim it's a "Satan was a good guy" book because this nuanced take is what made me realize Satan is everything a man should avoid to be.
Only midwits think it's a pro-Satan book. He is sympathetic but ultimately very much in the wrong.
I don't necessarily see it as pro-God either though, more than that, pro-human. The fact that in spite of our numerous flaws we may return to what we once were in time.
It's just great in general. You don't need to be religious to appreciate it, but it goes through the spectrum of all emotions, genres and ultimately, human history.
In the book, Satan strikes a rightout, heroic, and gallant figure.The Fallen Ones build grand palaces in Hell straight away and wear brilliant arms and armor and have the most glorious army in existence.
It makes out glory, might, honor, chivalry, and heroics to be suspect in their own right.
I still use "Prime Orb" and "Heroic Ardour" to this day.
The first pope denied Christ three times
Religions are all made up anyways
Shouldn't God be able to determine that you're lying to everyone when you apostisise and claim you're not christian?
Or is it worth others' torment just to be public about it?
genuine question.
>say "I am x."
>think "I am y."
Most Christians place too much emphasis on actions with respect to sin. Actions are superficial, as they only potentially reflect what's going on in the mind (as you alluded to).
The mindset that inspires the actions is what's most important. Fix the mindset and everything else falls into place.
>"But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a person. For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander"
Matthew 15:18-19
First of all, that says nothing about the merits of willfully sacrificing yourself in lieu of denying the word. Secondly, something tells me Christ wouldn't approve of this:
>"How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”
Sounds a bit vengeful, no?
>Christ wouldn't approve of this
Well it is approved scripture by a council of people who have dedicated their life to the study and worship Christ.
That's really cool, but maybe just read Christ's thoughts on love and forgiveness. Blessed are the peacemakers, turn the other cheek, shield your swords, forgive them for they know not what they do, etc etc.
>And let the one who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one.
>"Lord, look, here are two swords.” And He said to them, “It is enough.”
Enough for 12 disciples to defend themselves?? When taken in context, the interpretation that he was advocating violence makes no sense. Not to mention his entire philosophy of peace, love and forgiveness.
Also, when Peter takes his sword and slashes the ear of Malchus, Christ says to him, "Put your sword back in its place, for all who draw the sword will die by the sword."
The verse you highlighted is clearly meant as a kind of warning that his disciples would face great dangers.
Mokichi was right and in the end the main character was exactly the same as he was. Compromising on everything and then having nothing to offer but a sorry
The book was very good, and I liked The Samurai even more.
Dont know how to express it, but they made me understand why people believe.
The Silence movie was nice I suppose, its just that I read the books first.
Japan-related, Its not by the same author, but soon Ill start the Shogun book.
Is it true the book didn't allude to the possibility that Father Cristóvão never abandoned his faith? I heard there was nothing in the book about Cristóvão having a cross in his hands as he was being cremated.
israelite detected
Not really.
I've come to view my life as something of a video game with scripted events. There's "open world" aspects but there's a shitload of coincidental stuff that makes me believe it's scripted. So far, I can't be convinced otherwise.
>Shitmake version
Scorsese is such a hack.
The real stupid part of all christianity is embedded in your post unnoticed by you
>never ever deny your faith even when it could save a person
'Save a person'? Save their soul? No, you're talking about saving their physical life, which the whole premise of the thing is, doesn't matter. The person being drowned because they believe, they're off to heaven - but you are crying and trying to 'save' them - giving up heaven so you can stop them... going to heaven?
The Japs were holding firm to their beliefs and ready to die for them. Garfield didn't need to do anything. I can see why you think this would simplify responsibility, but I think your view simplifies divinity. Also not a Christian by the way.
>The Japs were holding firm to their beliefs and ready to die for them.
The concern was that the Japanese people didn't really understand Christ's philosophy, and that their steadfastness was predicated on a desire to please the priests rather than a genuine spiritual quest.
That said, the willingness to die for someone is a loving sacrifice, regardless of how misguided it may be.
This was definitely NOT the aim of the book. Endo was a devout Christian. The message that he was putting forth (not so much the movie) was that Christ was sent to Earth to be ridiculed, abused, Insultted. It was Christ's place to be trampled on and so by doing so, the priest was actually fulfilling this design.
This movie and Bad Lieutenant are the only two pieces of media that have given me the feeling of encountering something like a divine presence.
>Bad Lieutenant
That movie frustrated the hell out of me. I thought the nun was a sanctimonious nitwit who was in desperate need of a verbal smackdown.
Undeniably great film tho