>Batman is heading to Mexico. HBO Max Latin America has ordered an original animated feature-length film that takes the DC Comics character south of the border. The streamer will launch the Dark Knight story Batman Azteca: Choque De Imperios (Aztec Batman: Clash of Empires). The news was unveiled at the Guadalajara International Film Festival.
>In the time of the Aztec Empire, Yohualli Coatl – a young Aztec boy – experiences tragedy when his father and village leader, Toltecatzin, is murdered by Spanish Conquistadors. Yohualli escapes to Tenochtitlan to warn King Moctezuma and his high priest, Yoka, of imminent danger. Using the temple of Tzinacan, the bat god, as a lair, Yohualli trains with his mentor and assistant, Acatzin, developing equipment and weaponry to confront the Spaniard invasion, protect Moctezuma’s temple, and avenge his father’s death.
https://deadline.com/2022/06/batman-azteca-hbo-max-orders-animated-feature-mexico-1235044624/
Thoughts?
 |
 UFOs Are A Psyop Shirt $21.68 |
|
dicky batman when?
You mean Batgirl?
>Bruce Timm had
>Batman frick Batgirl
>BatMAN frick BatGIRL
>MAN FRICK GIRL
Holy hell Batman. Even on Batman Beyond, which was a kid's show, Timm had them frick. How did he get away with it?
Based ngl
The Batman cartoon has a young batgirl, watch that I suppose.
It will be Kino like Batman Ninja
Batman Ninja was fricking great
Will SupeRamon make an appearance?
When we will have Indian Batman, sirs?
now I remember that there is Indian Spiderman
Will they show the noble Aztecs tearing out the beating hearts of hundreds of children?
Instead of this shit why not just do an extremely graphic hard R-rated Batman vs the Cartels spin off?
because shut up CHUD
>Batman vs the Cartels
A white man fighting Hispanics? That sounds problematic anon, no I think a series about a young Aztec killing whitey to protect his culture based on slavery and human sacrifice sounds much more progressive.
That could be kino. And they could give him a Mexican cop bro to deal with
That's just half of the punisher max run...
Marvel kinda did it with Punisher.
Because the only thing keeping the cartels from beheading the creators of said movie is a poorly guarded border.
>I'm here in ancient times to preach the values of white liberals from California in 2022.
Pass.
The Latinx Knight
>WHITE MAN BAD
CHILD SACRIFICE GOOD
>Christians bad
>demons good
sounds kino but they'll ease up on aztec customs. if bats doesn't sacrifice 100 kids to fill the tank in quetzomobile then it's shit.
>his design is all colorful like macramé art
what are they doing...
Well it's a different creative team than Batman Ninja so at least it can't be as bad as that was.
Id rather take goofy batman ninja than preachy batman
Who says this is gonna be preachy? It's made by Latam for Latam. They don't give a shit about preaching to WASP suburbanites.
Did you read the synopsis?
I did.
Revenge story within an Aztec-Spanish war framework. Got it.
>Who says this is gonna be preachy? It's made by Latam for Latam
Latam woketards run rampant. Besides most people here swallows the leyenda negra bs (mostly peaceful noble savages full of wisdom genocided by the true barbarians, the greedy spaniards)
It's all so agotador
You have no understanding of Latam's relation towards Spain today. You're the one bringing your own preconceptions to make this another battlefield for the ameriburger culture war.
Indigenous separatism is growing strong by the minute in the shithole I live, and this will probably end up tearing it apart at some point.
You're right, burger politics has nothing to do with it. It's globalism and the decadence of western values.
Are you peruvian?
Chile
Isn't Boric pretty much fricking Mapuches right in the ass right now after not following on any of his promises during the 2019 unrest?
t. fellow argie
Right now the Boric (aka Merluzo) administration is larping as moderate in all fronts until the new constitution gets approved in September.
The new text will give "pueblos originarios" unprecedented constitutional privileges. Balkanization embedded in the law.
Yes this is the case everywhere near latam pushed by english historians mostly.
I'm not afraid of a indeginous pagan revival and a more diverse culture what I am concerned about is creating strife between old world and new world in a way to destabilize relations.
And you think a Batman animated film is going to move the needle or even be a blip in the radar in the grand scheme of things?
OP didn't post this paragraph:
>Juan Meza-León (Harley Quinn) serves as director, José C. García de Letona, Aaron D. Berger, Carina Schulze and Fernando De Fuentes as producers of the film, which will be produced entirely in Mexico, feature local talent and showcase the region’s abundant art. Sam Register and Tomás Yankelevich serve as executive producers.
Look them up, they're animation and comedy nerds. Some of them have collaborated on Legend Quest. No one has an agenda, they just want to make animations with a mesoamerican flavor.
Nadie viene por ti, chileno.
>And you think a Batman animated film is going to move the needle
I never said that. I said this
and I stand by it.
The Spanish were the good guys though?
Yes. Many villagers joined them in fighting the Aztecs as they were very hated.
there were no good guys in La Conquista, only pure suffering. Annybody wo argues otherwise is just coping
I know I should hate this, but it’s a novel approach.
>developing equipment and weaponry to confront the Spaniard invasion, protect Moctezuma’s temple, and avenge his father’s death
they fail
How many times does it need to be told that the goddamn Aztec were clearly horrible people, they should of make it about another fricking tribe not somebody from a bloody empire
>aztecs are le bad ok!
name a single civilization that was good. b***h
Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth
Mesoamerican history infodumper from Cinemaphile, Cinemaphile, etc.
I'm cautiously optimistic. It's Aztec Batman, so I don't expect it to be super amazingly authentic, but a lot of the names in the plot summary seem well done (I do wish Totecatzin and Acatzin switched names though, "Tolteca" means artisan, so it'd make more sense for the designer of his weapons/suit) and the helmet and it's quetzallalpiloni tassels look nice (though I do wish it was an actual Ehuatl or Tlahuiztli suit, or more like one). I also know Monarobot is working on it, and she knpows her stuff.
Beyond the nitpicks I mentioned, my criiticisms/concerns are him being from an "Aztec village", when these were urban civilizations and not tribes, but considering Tenochtitlan is featured they probably just mean a small rural hamlet like Cuexcomate (the archeological site, not the geyser); and rather then making up a fictional bat Diety, they should have just used Kamazotz and made him maya, or made it be a temple/shrine to Itzpapalotl (who id primarily tied to butterflies or ravens, but sometimes bats).
The biggest thing i'm unsure about is it involving conquistadors and being a film rather then a multi-episode series: There's so much media that uses the conquest, it being entirely prehispanic would be neat; and I worry the latter will limit the runtime to where there's no downtime to see the society or have cool scenes of Aztec-Batman running across temple rooftops and stalking criminals in the city's canals and streets lit by torchlight, which would be kino...actually if they DID want to toie conquistadors to it, it'd be neat if it took place in an alternate history where the city wasn't razed by Cortes, and instead the Spanish are just creeping their influence over the society like the elites/crime lords do in Gotham (or how colonialism worked in India)
Also, a lot of Batman villains would work well rexcontexualized in Mesoamerica...
1/?
cont:
...Both Joker and Scarecrow could have ties to Tezcatlipoca, a trickster god of sorcery, temptationand misfortune; Two-face could be linked to Xipe Totec, the flayed god of decay-rebirth (or Mesoamerican life-death split masks), Killer Croc to Cipactli, etc.
Child sacrifices were a thing in specific circumstances, but not hundreds at once. In fact archeological evidence supports that the total amount of sacrifices over a whole year in Tenochtitlan would probably only be a few hundred or a few thousand people, only 5% of which were children. (20% women, 75% men, most of fighting age, consistent with textual sources which note most victims were captured enemy soldiers)
The Aztec were conquerors and military expansionists, but that they were hated or exceptionally tyrannical is a misconception:
The city-states and kingdoms (not tribes: the region had civilization for ~3000 years; see pic, the whole region was urban political state, not just the Aztec) that the Aztec were conquering also practiced sacrifices themselves; and the Aztec Empire's political model was actually pretty hands off: Conquered subjects kept their rules, laws, and customs, and pretty much just had to pay taxes of economic goods and provide military service.
The reason Cortes got allies isn't because they were hated or oppressive, but because their hands-off political model meant subjects saw themselves as indepedent and with their own interests and enabled them to opportunistically launch coups or secessions and switch allegiences: it was VERY common in the region for state X to ally/pledge themselves to state Y (since subjects got left alone anyways they had little to lose) and then for them to work together to topple their captial or take out a political rival, with X being in a position of higher standing in Y's new kingdom.
That';s what happened with Cortes, see: https://pastebin.com/VqW97h93
2/2 for now
>The Aztec were conquerors and military expansionists, but that they were hated or exceptionally tyrannical is a misconception:
Why is it that Southern apologism is seen as destructive historical revisionism, but Aztec apologism, an empire that was responisble for human sacrifice on a scale that has never been seen before on this Earth, is suddenly hip and cool?
Jews are still seething about the expulsion.
Child sacrifice is a liberal sacrament.
I'm doing "apologism" for anything, i'm describing their political system and imperial model. I have no ethnic/national ties to this and don't care about the morals, I just find Mesoamerica neat and want to share accurate info: I actually read excavation surveys, research reports and papers, and 16th century sources. Nothing I said is revisionist or controversial.
If you're skeptical, you can find Hassig's "Aztec Warfare: Imperial Expansion and Political Control" via the site in the Cinemaphile sticky. I also have a book drive here: https://desuarchive.org/his/thread/12600924/#12604922 though the aforementioned book is the best one on this that has online scans
if you're so sure you know more, what's YOUR understanding of their political model or military policy?
>am I wrong?
Sorta
The Spanish burned almost all prehispanic books and documents t, but over the next century or so you had a variety of Spanish friars and missionaries also then re-documenting or preserving some of that information (Mostly to then utilize that info to make conversion easier; also as tax and political records so the Spanish crown could better know how to rule); or native nobles and scribes documenting it.
It's a fraction of what was lost, but for the Aztec in particular, since Spain's goverment in the New World was inherting their imperial sytstem, there's a LOT of documentation: the two most famous examples are Sahagun's Florentine Codex and Duran's history (pic): The former being thousands of pages of in depth documents on Mexica of the Aztec captial, down to the specifics of different holidays, their sterotypes of other cultures, ethics and moral adages, specific metalworking techniques, social clases/expectations, etc; the latter being a few hundred pages of detailed history about the reign and campaigns of each Mexica king.
There's hundreds more, but only some have English or even Spanish translations.
Because I like using Cinemaphile?
you are that his and pol dumbass chicano hat believes amerindian cities smaller than middle age venice had milions of people, moron
>prehispanic books
lol
Mesoamerican history is speculation since it does not have written text that someone would consider the historical source.
All we have is propaganda from explorers during their "voyages", am I wrong?
>propaganda from explorers
exactly, just lies so the kings would finance more voyages, I dont get why we trust primary sources, considering how much people lie
It's not just explorers and conquerors apparently even Priests tried to spread their over exaggeration for more missionaries and chapters for evangelization .
>wow you guys you shouldve been there, the cities were like covered in gold and had wine waterfalls and every home was a bigger palace than versailles and people had no illnesses of any kind and if you just give me some money I will come back with some parrot and a leaf to prove it
>Child sacrifices were a thing in specific circumstances, but not hundreds at once. In fact archeological evidence supports that the total amount of sacrifices over a whole year in Tenochtitlan would probably only be a few hundred or a few thousand people, only 5% of which were children. (20% women, 75% men, most of fighting age, consistent with textual sources which note most victims were captured enemy soldiers)
Bruh
> Archaeologists have found the remains of at least 42 children sacrificed to Tlaloc at the Great Pyramid of Tenochtitlan. Many of the children suffered from serious injuries before their death, they would have to have been in significant pain as Tlaloc required the tears of the young as part of the sacrifice.
I'm no expert but this sounds like something Bats would fight to his last breath rather than uphold
>The United States of America were conquerors and military expansionists, but that they were hated or exceptionally tyrannical is a misconception
nice write up but it's about batman in wild civilization. accuracy goes out the window with cartoonish license. credibility goes out with murrican popculture imposed unto another. it's disgraceful. it might be fun to watch but don't expend energy justifying or third hand fixing it.
why are you here? you clearly have an education.
He doesn't he's the same guy that's been spreading mesoamerican revisionist history throughout Cinemaphile, most known on Cinemaphile.
Can you even imagine all those great river cities disappearing because of a few Spanish Conquistador? literally impossible, it was never even real the explorers probably over exaggerated to sponsor more voyages from Europe.
>That city in the middle of the lake
THEY TOOK THIS FROM US
I'm glad you're still here mesobro
The couldn't just put a kid seeking to avenge his father's death set in Central America who dresses up like bat without throwing in the Spanish could they?
No, it needed to be anti-Christian.
You don't approve, anon?
>weird historical setting but it's... le batman!
Art style looks like Seis Manos. But I don't think anyone really watched that.
I fricking hate this shit, not because of minorities im not a /misc/tard, but why can't they just fricking make a good movie about a hispanic vigilante instead of capeshit but now its spanish batman. Wanna know the answer? Because of you. You fricking homosexuals that can't stop CONSOOMING your fricking stupid capeshit have ruined the film industry, so post about it some more you bunch of fricking morons.
It's just Elseworlds, guy. Chill out.
I fricking hate capeshit so much its unreal dude and Im angry otherwise right now so you're going to hear about it
P.S. This is why the only 10/10 to come out in 2 years fricking bombed (the Northman) because you homosexuals can't stop talking about capeshit. I fricking hate you.
This is an animated movie going direct-to-streaming. How is it hindering non-capeshit film?
This, alongside every other capeshit film, is hindering it, and dont say "direct-to-streaming" as if it means it's not important. That's the main industry. The Northman was when I realized it was undoable, because it's barely even artsy, it's entry level and action packed and easy to get into but people still didn't see it because IT IS NOT CAPESHIT.
just make a show of aztecs then, why put fricking batman there like some kind of gta Hispanic mod
Because it's fricking DC and WB Animation. It's Batman first, Aztec second.
Again, Elseworlds: the usual characters but with a different flavor.
It bombed because they didn't want it to succeed because of white people. So they just didn't advertise it.
No normal people think to themselves "OH A BLACK FELLA" "OH A WHITE FELLA" thats just this fricking website. I WISH it was a matter of race. NOPE. A matter of capeshit. I saw The Northman with a bunch of minorities and we all loved it.
You aren't understanding. Obviously audiences don't think that way. It's the political activists who run the studios who think that way. If a white person movie was successful in 2022 it would send the wrong political message, the opposite of the one they want to spread. So they simply helped the movie bomb by not advertising it.
No you fricking politically charged identitarian moron, its not even that deep. Audiences don't see things which don't have a broad market appeal anymore. I saw a shit ton of Northman trailers all over the place and posters as well. If it was as you said, they wouldn't of fricking made it in the first place. Fricking THINK for a change instead of getting your moronic opinions from literal autists.
Sorry for going off on you fella, I used to be a /misc/tard when I was a teenager, I don't want you to think im some liberal homosexual wishing death upon you for thinking different. Im just so pissed off about this damned abomnidable capeshit that never ceases. THEY LITERALLY RAN OUT OF FRICKING SUPERHEROES AND THEY'RE STILL GOING BECAUSE FRICKING moronS STILL WATCH THIS FRICKING GARBAGE BECAUSE THEY ARE FRICKING TOLD TO AND ITS WHATS NORMAL FUCCCKKKKKK
I'm looking at the OP anon and the cartoon guy is black because the creators don't like Mexicans
No, it just isn't a movie for the masses.
The masses love that movie. Most people never knew it was released due to no advertising.
Nope. Too much pagan ritual stuff and no character to boot for. It's a grim movie which went way over budget.
Paganism is hot right now. Fastest growing religion in Europe.
Kek. I wonder how much dead things can grow.
I thought it was veganism but only because when you give up you can take it up again
if you count marvel movies that is
>Fastest growing religion in Europe.
that would be Islam
Inshallah
>quote from a peanut brained anthropologist
Duttongays need to touch grass
this actually looks cool
i'm just gonna torrent, keep paying whatever company u think it's good moron
I dont pay any company I just use my parents and girlfriends and duckduckgo
Are we going to watch him rip people's hearts out to sacrifice them to his demon gods?
whats next? byzantine spiderman? ptolomean hulk?
Captain Carthage
Why are chicanos so obsessed with Aztec shit? Fricking hell stop it already.
>HBO Max Latin America
No chicanos here.
lol
they feel guilty about speaking spanish and talking about la raza so they cope about their ancient history, they cant accept they were either traitors or losers.
Why is he African?
Picture this, if you will: Mesoamerican xianxia
Kino levels such as this could not be contained safely. You'd be up on mass murder charges.
YOU MADMAN, YOU'LL KILL US ALL
Nehua in yoalli
Hispanic BROS GET IN HERE!!!!!!!!!!
as an american with mexican descent, I find this really stupid
As a person with a working brain, I find this really stupid
>as an american with mexican descent, I find this really stupid
Nobody asked, pocho.
ditto homie
>posts picture of movie made by white leftist homosexuals
Frick off prick libshit
>as an american with mexican descent
>as a
Yeah nobody gives a frick gay. Go do your spanish uncle tom routine somewhere else, we don't care about your virtue signaling and we're not going to validate, go to a Trump rally and yell you're a Mexican Trump supporter Im sure you'll get what you're looking for. We don't need any shucking and jiving. It says ANONYMOUS for a reason, sissy boy.
Please die
it's cultural appropriation. Doesn't matter if mexicans are behind it, it's a moronic idea. Batman doesn't have to be attached, just tell the stupid story with out it.
>Muh cultural appropriation
Of course a fricking gringo would be coming out with this bullshit
I'm saying it the other way around m8. They're already got the mexican setting, no need to muddle it with batman. Batman is an inherently white american story.
This shit has potential to be good or at least entertaining and Nobody is going to consume a story about pre white people America so Batman is a good net to catch normies
>I'm saying it the other way around m8.
>Co-opting existing IPs instead of creating a new one is boring.
They're already got the mexican setting, no need to muddle it with batman. Batman is an inherently white american story.
Latam will take your Spider-man give Gwen Stacy a fat ass and make her the hottest of all her incarnations and not give a shit.
>it's cultural appropriation.
Latin America doesn't care about that crap.
Aztec Batman's father was not killed. His father left.
I'm not going to bother marking all of OPs post. I find it interesting, but this mother fricker is a paid shill. Either that or they have way too much time on their hands and have hundreds of bookmarks along with Mesoamerian books and Mesoamerican Hentai gore porn all neatly placed in their cum dungeon.
>a young Aztec boy – experiences tragedy when his father and village leader, Toltecatzin, is murdered by Spanish Conquistadors
Oh no, not the poor Aztecs. The empire that enslaved everyone around them and ritually sacrificed tens of thousands of slaves every year.
Its a real shame they aren't around any more. Darn those mean old Spaniards.
I still don't get why anyone would be an Aztec apologist. They were a culture literally built and sustained on human sacrifice.
They were a culture that was destroyed by whites. Therefor they must be good and worthy of pity. The fact that they were enslaving all the other cultures around them is a piece of nuance that the white guilt crowd aren't interested in.
The Aztecs were insane murderous savages. The Spaniards did the world a favor.
???
so he learned all that Batman stuff in max. 2 years. when you think that Cortez landed in 1519 and btfo the Aztecs in 1521 in a 90 days walk trough the park
You're overthinking this, anon.
>more poor indigenous victim vs the big bad white man
I'm not even white and this shit is getting old
Co-opting existing IPs instead of creating a new one is boring. They're just cashing-in on the Batman name.
Choice. Batman works best when it's over the top and silly. Flying around as El Quetzalcōātzin will be kino.
Yes, his parents were victims of the evil white man, and not, you know, the Aztecs' own insatiable demand for human sacrifice which they practiced on a near industrial scale. The reason 400 white men were able to overthrow the Aztec empire so easily was because the Aztecs were hated by everyone in Mexico. Cortez had a hundred thousand Indians fighting for *him* during the siege of Tenochtitlan.
This is like the 10th time i've done this in this thread, but see
Yes, local city-states and kingdoms were doing most of the fighting in the conquest rather then Conquistadors (though there weren't only 400 conquistadors, Cortes got additional men and supplies at multiple points, across the whole expedition there was a few thousand conquistadors), but most allied with Cortes out of opportunism to benefit politically, not out of any particular resentment towards the Mexica in particular: The Aztec Empire was actually a very hands off political network where subjects just had to cough up taxes, provide military aid, etc then got left alone, generally.
Especially since sacrifice was a pan-mesoamerican practice litterally every civilization in the region practiced. The Mexica of the aztec captial did it the most, but even then not in industrial scales. The great tzompantli excavations support a figure of a few hundred to a few thousand sacrifices a year
Fricking read the pastebin I linked, it's a 3+ page writup that explains in great detail how exactly the Aztec Empire's political system worked and why Cortes got allies. It's entirely and specifically about this exact topic.
Opportunistic coups and rebellions were common throughout Mesoamerica because the lack of draft animals and difficult terrain meant captials didn't directly govern their subjects: The Aztec Empire itself was founded in almost identical circumstances to what happened with Cortes.
The ONLY state which joined Cortes primarily out of resentment was Tlaxcala, because Tlaxcala was a foreign kingdom actively under Aztec invasions. Texcoco, Xochimilco, etc only joined after Moctezuma II died and Tenochtitlan was struck by smallpox and it was vulnerable and to their advantage to take it out and they and other subject cities in the Valley of Mexico actually benefitted from Aztec expansionism bringing tax/tribute influx into the area.
Give me the source for the small pox outbreak
Tlaxcala joined up with Cortes while they were still en route to Tenochtitlan, on September 23rd in 1519. Moctezuma II dies in late June in 1520, with the Conquistadors and Tlaxcaltecs escaping from the city, engaging in battles, and then arrived back in Tlaxcala around July 10th. The Smallpox outbreak really flares up in late fall, with half the city dead by mid December.. Cortes and co march back to Tenochtitlan in late December, and then allies with Ixtlilxochitl II of Texcoco on the 28th, with then other cities following over the following months as army moves through the valley.
I already said both in pastebin and in
that Tlaxcala is the one state that primarily joined Cortes primarily because they hated the Mexica.
But Tlaxcala wasn't an Aztec subject: It was the target of active invasions, flower wars, and blockades to wear it down so it COULD be conquered. The issue is since Tlaxcala is the state that is most associated with being an ally to Cortes (because they were the first major state to do so), Tlaxcala's motiviations for the alliance gets extrapolated and projected onto Texcoco, Huextozinco, Xochimilco, Chalo, Mixquic, etc, even though their motivations weren't the same and most of those were actual subjects, not foreign states the Aztec were at war with (Huextozinco was, but they constantly switched alliances between Aztec and Tlaxcaltec every few years, again opportunism was common)
If you wanna be technical, Texcoco (and Huextozinco I guess, see above) also had a grievance: Texcoco actually had two kings at the time, Cacama and Ixtlilxochitl II, as a result of a successon dispute. Cacama had Tenochtitlan's support and Ixtlilxochitl II was butthurt, and it was he, not Cacama who allied with Cortes, but again, only after it was to his advantage to do so and Tenochtitlan was an easy target (and no longer in a position to project power and they benefitted from being aligned with it)
>The Smallpox outbreak really flares up in late fall, with half the city dead by mid December.. Cortes and co march back to Tenochtitlan in late December, and then allies with Ixtlilxochitl II of Texcoco on the 28th, with then other cities following over the following months as army moves through the valley.
Sources again(2nd time I'm asking).
Where is the smallpox outbreak source
I'm pulling my dates from "When Montezuma Met Cortes", because it has a handy timeline at the start of the book.
It in turn is surely pulling those dates from Cortes's letters, Bernal Diaz's account, Book 12 of the Florentine Codex, the last few chapters of Duran's history, and a few other less mainstream sources like Fernando Ixtlilxochitl's account of the conquest from Texcoco's perspective, or Tlaxcalteca ones, etc. All of those would list dates.
If you're wanting suggestions on which translations are best or want PDFs for those, I can help at least for some of them.
There actually IS some disagreement between sources about where exactly the smallpox outbreak started and who was the ground zero carrier, some sources alleged it started by the coasts and a man in Panfilo de Narvaez's force (who arrived to arrest cortes and actually allied with the Aztec, before Cortes captured him and convinced his men to join him instead) was carrying it, other sources allege it broke out in Tenochtitlan itself, but as far as I know, in all sources, Tenochtitlan was heavily crippled by it before Ixtlilxochitl' II allies with Cortes.
There actually IS a theory by one historian that Ixtlilxochitl II may have tried to ally with Cortes during the battle of Otumba, but it's based on some pretty contrived reasoning and extrapolation from the primary sources, which don't say so. (and that still would be after Moctezuma II died and it's nobles were killed and would be vulnerable)
Can you put your autism towards creating a Cortez version of the "wanna know how I got these scars?" monolog?
I'm not familar with that shitpost format so you'll need to post the base version.
Also, i'm more informed on Mesoamerican history, urbanism, architecture, politics, water management systems, etc then I am on Cortes or the Conquest, so no promises if it will turn out super well, but I can try.
(Also as I said in
, i'd rather Joker be a priest or a emissary of Tezcatlipoca rather then a Conquistador, personally)
This reminds me:
As I say in
I agree shoehorning the Spanish in is unnecessary, but I think there could be cool ways to handle it.
ALso, I forgot to mention this, but if you or anybody else wants a animated show set in Mesoamerica without the Spanish being involved at all, check out Onyx Equinox. Doesn't shy away from sacrifice or Mesoamerican gods basically being cosmic horrors either; while also being insanely well researched and authentic
Even the main character's arc ties into themes from actual Aztec poetry and moral adages from stuff like the Florentine Codex, and even the fictional elements of the show use real symbolism (IE the underworld gates in the show taking iconography from mesoamerican art of pools, mirrors, and caves, all associated with underworld entrances, and in the show the first gate is even located in a cenote, a literal cave filled with water/as a pool, with a character attempting to commit suicide and being tainted by underworld energy, so both metaphorically and literally passing into the underworld, who is then rescue by an emissary of the god Tezcatlipoca, who was heavily tied to mirrors)
Without question the best Mesoamerica has been handled in terms of authencity in any sort of commercial, non indie production. The art design and music is great too, though the pacing and animation can be really iffy at times, and can be saturday-morning cartoon-y despite also having gore/sex scenes, though the pacing and tone improves in the latter half.
>(and no longer in a position to project power and they benefitted from being aligned with it)
Meant to say "that they benefitted from... it."
I explain this in the pastebin itself, but since the Aztec Empire/other large mesoamerican empires didn't directly govern their subjects and the lack of draft animals/terrain made actually logistically projecting force iffy; power and influence was more based on perception and the threat of it's application, rather then by a capital actually projecting that influence or force hands on at any given time
When Moctezuma II died, the city was hit by smallpox, it's nobles had been massacred during a religious ceremony, etc; it effectively meant that Tenochtitlan was no longer able to project that force/no longer had the confidence of it's subjects to be powerful: "Capital" and "Subject" implies a dominant and subservient relationship, but since this is all indirect anyways, a loss of confidence could cause the whole house of cards to fall down: in reality Tenochtitlan DEPENDED on it's subjects seeing it as powerful and worth staying aligned with to continue to hold that power
Keep in mind, in turn, subject states also got political marriages with Tenochtitan if they played ball, and therefore benefitted politically (as well as better trade/tax returns) from being inside the empire. Obviously, not all states wanted to be inside of it or liked paying taxes, I'm not claiming the Aztec were beloved or anything, but those core city-states in the Valley of Mexico like Texcoco, Xochimilco, Chalco, Iztapalapa etc DID have it in their interests to suck up to and be on good terms with Tenochtitlan
That they turned on Tenochtitlan only when it lost it's power and was vulnerable is very, very telling for their motivations being opportunistic
Sacrifices were done for basically every god, not just Tonatiuh and Huitzliopotchli (who isn't technically a sun god, even)
See also
>They were warmongers, but they were hands off with the places they conquered
No, they weren't. The Spaniards assembled a volunteer army of over 100,000 natives to help them destroy the Aztec empire because everyone around them hated their guts.
>https://pastebin.com/VqW97h93
I've read this sticky you should read it too, but I don't believe his headcanon and entire story because the writer extrapolates a lot of stuff that aren't connected from 1300AD.
Read about the Tlaxcala, remember the Conquistadors were a small and yet very cunning group.
The mesaamericaboos are just like wehrerboos of the past they have links,copy pasted and images ready to debunk common stuff.
>EVERYTHING MUST BE BLACK AND WHITE MORALITY!!!
Jesus christ you chuds are morons
le BAD
sacrificing thousands to their silly sun god le GOOD
whew kino
Kek it appears the twisted am*rikkan israelite is listening to moron-tier leftists from Mexico (probably Californian idiots).
will the hero cortez kill batman for being on the side of evil?
>Aztec Batman
Sounds like pure kino
I love it when /misc/ enthusiasts get BTFO by a historian.
Nobody got BTFO'd on the contrary this "historian" has a bunch of theories and speculation based on facts which he never directly sources.
Why don't you link your sources first? Because based on who is presenting information he's clearly blowing you the frick out.
>he's still doing it without any direct sources
Anyone can connect their headcanon to a bunch of unrelated facts.
Argentinian Batman would´ve been better
That's always the issue when speaking to /misc/gays. They bring up the source card and once you're able to back up what you say they completely "lose interest" and keep spreading their BS online. It's nice seeing this unfold in real time though.
I will personally go back to re-read what you've posted.
Thanks but do you have Books that are primarily in Spanish and not in English?
I'm not a /misc/gay he clearly doesn't cite direct sources but instead whole books and codexs ffs
>do you have Books that are primarily in Spanish
There's actually MORE books if you're looking at Spanish ones, but I am the rare case of a Mesoamerican history nerd who doesn't speak or read Spanish. I THINK the book drive I linked with the rest of my resources in
might have some SPanish books?
That being said, most books published in english on Mesoamerica either have spanish translations or were translated from spanish originally: Duran and Sahagun/the Florentine Codex, Fernando Ixtlilxochitl, and pretty much any 16th or 17th century source are obviously originally in spanish (or nahuatl with a spanish translation at the time too), and in fact the spanish versions (or at least scans of the OG document) would be public domain by now.
I do have a list of sites with manuscript scans, but it is disorganized and not ready for public viewing yet. If you check the resource doc there's a link to some reddit posts which list a bunch of such manuscripts though you can try to google.
Based on a cursory search it doesn't seem like Hassig's work is in Spanish, though.
> he clearly doesn't cite direct sources
I mean, I can but if you want me to do that it needs to be a relatively specific fact or claim so I can quote the exact passage or page number: If a broader concept or point that's made up of a bunch of separate but related facts then i'm not gonna spend 4 hours compiling 30 different specific citations for you.
So like, if you want me to back up the point about the Aztec not taking sacrifices as tribute/taxes, THAT's specific and I can cite, in addition to the Codex Mendoza tax roll scans I already linked, "Aztec Imperial Strategies"'s tax lists which also compiles the tribute demands for each town from that + two other tax documents (but there are no scans of it online so you'd have to take my word that that's what it says), but the broader point i'm making about the Aztec political model is a bunch of seperate facts.
I don't care about human sacrifices which pretty much was universal in the Americas, I want that smallpox source.
The Spanish conquest isn't actually exactly Spanish as in that the Spaniards had the most force implemented on it's enemies, it was an alliance of people who were under as the subjects of the Spanish crown.
What pisses me off is that modern day liberals have this view that the Conquistadors were irrational and evil and wanted to genocide people. Of course they would have that view because they despise monarchy and would rather spread the black legends more as a way to divide cultures.
>I want that smallpox source.
I already gave specific dates, so i'm not sure what else you want me to do. Are you wanting me to dig up where Cortes, Bernal Diaz, etc lists the dates in primary sources rather then the book I listed?
if you check the tbharchive link in
and dig through those resources I have a throwaway email but I rarely check it. Some people I exchange resources with and collaborate with you can message to reach me with a bit more frequency is Majora__Z on twitter (their discord is MajoraZ#7023) or the person on reddit in the linked reddit posts in those resources. but honestly all 3 of us are and can take a while to get back to you, the twitter is probably best though. Zotzcomic on twitter is another one, he also does amazing infographs on Mesoamerican fashion and clothing, he's a bit more focused on that subtopic and the Maya in general whereas I'm more Aztec informed.
There's a few other people I can list but us 4 is our core group
I'll be honest I'm really not sure what you're trying to assert here
Scrolled through this guy's twitter he seems pretty biased, bro I suggest you tell him to relax.
Nowhere does it mention in the Quran or the Bible to ritualistically murder people.
White people getting mad on behalf of distant relatives of the people being "wronged"
>some guys mentions how recent this famous empire that a lot of people probably associate with ancient history really was
>twitter loses their shit and cries white supremacy
kek
>isn't that much older
>Oxford around 1026
>Aztec Empire around 1428
So 400 years, aka centuries, aka almost half a millenia
>not that much older
>I'm an archaeologist
I thought scientists dealt on facts not on feelings
I'm currently reading most of your tbharchive posts and pastebin posts.
All the posts you and your group were posting on Cinemaphile and other boards are mostly headcanon and it shows especially when reading the account of the indigenous thinking cortes was the god quetzalcoatl because he was white claiming it was propaganda from the priests as a way of evangelization.
I appreciate that you're giving it a look.
I will say that a lot of the theology and sacrifice dumps in the pastebin are really oudated, and I'd be able to do a much better job with less mistakes now: In particular in some of them I lean very heavily on Maffie's interpretation of Aztec religion which frames it a monist system, but since making that post I've realized that his work isn't as widely agreed upon as I thought it was, hence the disclaimer I added in the pastebin retroactively... I really just need to redo that whole dump. Some of the sacrifice total estimates from back then are also outdated now given the newer Skull rack findings (and I originally misread some of them)
>especially when reading the account of the indigenous thinking cortes was the god quetzalcoatl because he was white claiming it was propaganda from the priests as a way of evangelization.
I'm curious why you think this is "headcanon", considering there's a pretty large smoking gun, being that Cortes himself in his letters never claims he was seen as a Quetzalcoatl or as a god by Moctezuma, and in fact recounts an incident where Moctezuma showed Cortes his bare chest in an effort to assuage rumors Cortes heard about him (moctezuma) being a god, and calls both himself AND cortes mortal.
I don't know what more you can ask for to disprove it: Cortes actually wrote those lettters himself, and actually while he was in Tenochtitlan, too; vs other sources including the "mistaking for quetzalcoatl" thing being written by other people decades after the fact.
Do you have a discord or place I can contact you?
Currently learning about this stuff, I don't really trust American/Mexican Historians for the most part but I'll read what they have to say.
>I don't know what more you can ask for to disprove it: Cortes actually wrote those lettters himself, and actually while he was in Tenochtitlan, too; vs other sources including the "mistaking for quetzalcoatl" thing being written by other people decades after the fact.
It wasn't cortes making those claims it was other people, same as Jesus in the Bible he never claimed to be God directly.
>Batman is BEheading to Mexico
this one better kills
Fact is indigenous people had more privileges and "rights" under the Spanish crown than the shitty republics that came after.
Fricking israelites
>azteca batman
Da frick!!!
The only sacrifices I make is to the toilet after a burrito with diablo sauce.
will he cut the beating hearts out of his enemies' chests?
Why are mutt beaners so desperate to be "proud" of these savages?
Why do morons who jack off the conquistadors and how they were in the right then ignore that the conquistadors themselves praised and had a ton of respect for aztec cities, art, society, laws, and pretty much everything other then their religion?
Spanish priests even compared them to the greeks and romans as "civilized pagans", iirc
>Why do morons who jack off the conquistadors and how they were in the right then ignore that the conquistadors themselves praised and had a ton of respect for aztec cities, art, society, laws, and pretty much everything other then their religion?
>Spanish priests even compared them to the greeks and romans as "civilized pagans", iirc
All of them had an agenda to sell, they wanted land titles, funds and making names for themselves.
It's a complex situation where a small group of soldiers diplomatically made entire other groups of people subjects of a foreign king.
You said it yourself. The Catholic Spanish empire was an actual civilizing force that showed respect for other cultures. That's remarkable, considering how conquering empires usually roll, including the British empire.
>civilizing force by completely destroying and wiping out other civilizations
They could have just banned sacrifice and left it at that, instead they basically wiped out an entire third of the world's cradles of civilization and their historical records. Imagine if the British colionized india, they tossed all the Sanskrit, Hindi, etc epics and political records and dismantled half the ruins and medieval architecture.
We could have been in the kino timeline where Mexico ended up like Japan and still has towns and cities with aztec style architecture and neigherhboods with pyramids like in this image
people can walk around and shit instead of just some grey worn down ruins
>We could have had WakandaTitlán
Oh really? Well too bad, write a fanfic or something.
I'm proud of my heritage and culture.
Yeah that's great and all but the aztec batman will have to deal with le ebil conquistadors.
You mean to tell me that the small group of Spanish conquistadors destroyed everything?
You haven't been paying attention to the history and all the codex, nothing was destroyed or wiped out everything happen with basically consent because you couldn't totally enforce your will on a way larger group of people.
what it should be called
el murcielagx mas indio que nunca
El Güero Murcielagazos
Zel Guerx Murcielagazx
just making that less sexist
The Aztec thing is strange. the other Meso American tribes absolutely hated them, for good reasons they were savages. The Tlaxcalans allied with Cortez to bring down the hated Aztec. the Spanish did even treat them bad. in fact they were loyal allies to the Spanish crown up until the end of Spanish rule.
>stuff like city sizes and architecture and art is things that's verifiable with archeological excavations or surviving art pieces.
That stuff is massive speculation though.
Only two "cities" in mesoamerica was recognized by european explorers as being advanced, Cuzco and Tenochtitlan which they created maps for.
>That stuff is massive speculation though.
There's some speculation and guesswork involved in population estimates, but only to a point, especially when you have sites like Teotihuacan in pic related which is entirely mapped down to every last structure, and has a planned urban grid of fancy palaces and temples that covers almost 24 square kilometers (see the map at the bottom, of the image, the top is select floorplans and reconstructions of those specific palaces)
Obviously i'm not saying every Mesoamerican city is like Teotihuacan (in fact Teotihuacan has very wierd urban design traits and other features, it's pretty atypical), but there are hundreds of sites that are very large and have hundreds to thousands of buildings in them, and clearly supported populations in the tens of thousands, with some like Teotihuacan being in the low hundreds of thousands.
>Only two "cities"...was recognized by european explorers as being advanced
Cusco is Andean not Mesoamerican; and that's also not true since various conquistadors and spanish officials talked about other cities like Cholula, Tlaxcala, Iztapalapa etc; or on art and society, etc
EX:
>[Tlaxcala] is indeed so great and marvellous... though I abstain from describing many things... the little.. I.. recount is... incredible. It is much larger than Granada and... better fortified. Its houses are as fine and its inhabitants far more numerous.... Its provisions and food are likewise very superior... There are gold, silver and precious stones, and israeliteellers' shops selling other ornaments made of feathers, as well arranged as in any market.... There is earthenware of many kinds and excellent quality, as fine as any in Spain. Wood, charcoal, medicinal and sweet smelling herbs are sold in large quantities. There are booths for washing your hair and barbers to shave you: there are also public baths... good order and an efficient police system are maintained... they behave as people of sense and reason
I shouldn't have said explorers they specifically were enamored by those two "cities" which they had people mapped out at the time to send back to Europe.
Whoa it's almost as if that guy describing Tlaxcala was trying to sell something to someone important. Mmmmm what could it be I wonder
>I already said this earlier, but while the Spanish DID absolutely destroy tens of thousands of prehispanic texts and basically wiped out their culture (though this was a long and gradual process, not just instant), various friars also recorded information, even if to suit their own interests.
Proof for this destruction by the Spanish, who do you mean by "Spanish".
>read that Spaniards created thousands of libraries and colleges
Why? I don't get it, why Spaniards do this everytime they conquer? such a waste of time and resources, also this always backfires because you're essentially arming future generations by giving them knowledge
Spaniards always thought with their dicks. Also they had this weird shit of quickly integrating and accepting the nations they conquered into this weird loose term called "hispanidad" . Here in US we like to think we're the first country to abolish slavery but Spain was doing that way earlier, frick, not even 100 after discovering America they already had full natives accepted in their nobility. Such weird culture
Spain was already a mix of many ethnicities, so they never lost sleep over maintaining a racial homogeneity because there never was one to begin with.
What they didn't tolerate though was subversive ideologies and disruptive groups foreign to their culture. Pic related expelled israelites and Arabs from the peninsula (unless they converted to Catholicism)
They were too good for their own good, even today spanish people are too lax on latinos and it's not because of white guilt like anglos. They just like to relax and socialize even if the people they are hanging with are literal human sacrificers. I personally blame religion.
Doesn't help that they didn't arrive there to settle but to extract resources and ship to Madrid and you can bet your ass a spaniard isn't going to be plowing the fields or working the mines.
>you can bet your ass a spaniard isn't going to be plowing the fields or working the mines.
Actually Spaniard miners are 99% Spanish born, and mostly on the north where immigration is much lower
This. Unironically religion.
Catholics are all about integration and spreading the message and creating community, no matter you're a cannibal or a murderer, as long as you're Catholic you're welcommed.
I mean the Spaniards stopped them from being cannibals and murder is a mortal.
they're injun they're tribes to me but my point basically was the Aztec weren't really loved by other mesoamericans and were key in the Aztec downfall.
The Aztec love is odd to me considering they were savages. don't care how organized or advanced a society is, if they practice regular ritual human sacrifice they are savages.
Of course the Aztec weren't "loved", they were a large military power people owed taxes too, but they idea that their subjects hated them and wanted liberation from tyranny and that's why Cortes got allies is wrong;
Again, read the stuff I directed you to, especially the pastebin: For the most part the only state that worked with Cortes in the siege that actually hated the Mexica of the Aztec capital was Tlaxcala, because Tlaxcala was actively being invaded as a enemy state by the Aztec at the time TO conquer them: All the others which were actual existing subjects weren't being messed with and got left alone.
The other states which aided Cortes only joined in after Tenochtitlan was fricked and when it was to their advantage to switch sides and get some glory and political points for doing so,
>if they practice regular ritual human sacrifice they are savages.
Then you get into the same subjective, dumb, and pointless moral debate mentioned in
/
regarding if Mesoamerican sacrifice or Christian/Islamic holy wars/religious purges are more or less bad or equal, since all are fundamentally religious violence.
I don't really care about morals, I just like sharing historical and archeological information.
Now we're talking in circles and I refer you back to
Yes, bias is an issue but there's also hundreds of examples of actual large mesoamerican cities; and their society from dozens or hundreds of different sources throughout the 16th century. Maybe Cortes fudged some details, but to say that it's all made up is idiotic.
Especially in Tlaxcala's case when we have archeological surveys of Tlaxcala too (though I don't have a fancy infograph like for Teotihuacan, so have one for Tikal) and excavations of residences and the city layout and details about it's more egatliarian political system match Cortes's accounts.
sorry but if you think human sacrifice is subjective than the principles you hold to are objectively misguided.
>all are fundamentally religious violence.
Human sacrifice was a fundamental part of Aztec worship. Christians and Muslims can worship God without crusades and jihads. The right way to worship Tlaloc is to sacrifice children to him so he would provide rain.
Crusades and Jihads should be compared to Aztec wars of conquests and Flower wars. There is no equivalent to human sacrifice in Christian or Islamic worship.
Wrong board
Wrong board
Wrong board
Wrong board
Wrong board
Wrong board
Wrong board
Eh, why isn't he fighting the cartels in modern day Mexico?
Too outlandish for Mexicans, better to fight Spaniards almost half a millenia ago. I don't have about it taking place in Aztec Empire but portraying Europeans as evil for the millionth time. I'm not a /misc/tard but what the frick.
Even worse if they portray the Monarchy as a greedy and evil which fricking American liberals love to do.
Monarchy isn't evil, it's just lame.
I hope Canada burns down your White House again, yankee
I suspect it's because Mexicans have just given up on fighting the cartels.
Is this just american masturbation or what? Every single person I know herr in Mx just looks as Aztev pandering as boring, repetitive and condescending. Shit half the country doesnt even identify wirh Aztec culture in the slightest, we simply didnt have any Aztecs beyond the middle of the country. Practically all the north was a dessert until 400 years ago and these part of the country was founded by Spaniards.
We dont give a frick about aztecs. And it a bit racist too Mexican=Aztec. Thats like calling all of us Mayans or Mohican.