How come capes can't make new heroes and villains that catch on anymore? I remember Punchline being presented as the next Batman major villainess, but she dropped off everyone's radar like 4 months after her debut. Kamala has been pushed for literally a decade - appearing in movies, games, and cartoons - and she STILL isn't popular.
Because they presented her as harley's replacement and failed, Kamala is her own dorky thing.
booba
Punchline got pushed by only one writer but she managed to have a mini and some appearances. Kamala WAS popular but lost her popularity after a while. She can no longer support a book on her own. But the real answer is that most new characters need a long ass time being used and developed before they get to a point where they can be considered popular. That's how it's always been and forcing a character to be popular never works out. I know someone's going to chime in about Miles but he's been around for a while and was pushed successfully and is popular. Cinemaphile hates him but everyone else loves him and he's got two big movies and a few big games with him in it. I just wish he had his own superhero name.
Miles was helped by having well liked appearances, (at least at first) in a popular game and film. Before then he was still generally unknown or unliked. Thats usually what helps push a character in the modern age: One solid appearance in an outside piece of media. Killer Frost and King Shark both started seeing more use after that Arkham film. Guardians of the Galaxy exploded from literal whos to household names.
Of course, the appearance has to be both good, and significant. Kamala has shown up in games, cartoons, and films, but her role was either so minor no one really noticed her, didnt come across very well, and/or the media she was in was so ignored/reviled it actively set her character back.
Miles was helped by having a billion dollars spent on his media in the first ~13 years of his existence with nothing to show for it before that, any character would gain notoriety with a push that big
She wasn’t in any movie, show or game. Comics don’t matter worth a shit so a character getting pushed there means nothing. But if a character is getting pushed in the other mediums, then they have a much better chance of sticking around.
They tried to do some social commentary with Punchline about the Internet but she's a charisma vacuum.
Kamala feels artificial to me. Like she's not a terrible idea but she's just getting pushed with no success and now she's stuck with the X- Menaces for the foreseeable future.
>Kamala feels artificial to me. Like she's not a terrible idea but she's just getting pushed with no success and now she's stuck with the X- Menaces for the foreseeable future.
Mutants appeared in kamala's neighborhood before without people getting upset about it.
o Kamala scene successful enough that you can put her on a team and her sales success is in paperbacks.
>MUH SALES
I will freely remind you that even record-breaking sales in the Western market still don't even compete with the most unpopular manga titles that Shonen Jump wouldn't even wipe its ass with.
I don't read Kamala comics so I'm not familiar with the writing, but is this the original text? It sounds like it's taking the piss.
IMO, I wish she was more of a charisma vacuum. Make her completely mute to contrast Harley's bubbly energetic personality with an emotionless silent killer creepiness. Push that Michael Myers angle with her.
Bruh, that's what I thought they were going to do with her when she debuted. I thought she was going to be mute character who primarily communicated through violent gags; usually, ones that topped off a joke Joker was telling. Like Joker would make a joker about how some dude's "Back was killing him..." and she would appear from behind and crack his spine with a steel bat. Y'know... like she was Joker's "walking PUNCHLINE?"
But nah, she's just a crazy e-girl in clown makeup that simps for Joker. So fricking disappointing.
That would require writing skills and thought. Far easier to do generic wacky girl.
t. anon still pissed cass isn't mute anymore.
When was the last time a new villain was a success? Batkek?
Knull
MAKING NEW CHARACTER IN THE ANCIENT PAST
>get handed cover art of Superman having to rebuild an entire pie factory 30 feet to the left or the Earth will be destroyed
>not paid enough to care
>invent Graham Cracker Theseus and never think about it again
>see the blurb at the bottom of the page promising Jimmy Olsen will turn into a truck
>invent Dr. Frankenwheels and never think about it again
>repeat 20 times per month
>get 87,000 letters from children about how they made all of their friends buy Amazing Happenings #284 because The Goathuffer (you invented him and never thought about him again) is the most inspiring character of the decade
>the boss demands The Goathuffer meet every hero in the roster and all of your stories for the month write themselves
>The Goathuffer gets his own title
>cycle begins anew
MAKING NEW CHARACTER TODAY
>the boss says market research says that Captain Identifiable is very popular but growth has stagnated so you should make a new character like him
>boss says you should appeal to second-generational Laotian immigrants because they aren't buying comics
>make Captain Laotian Identity because you're not paid enough to care
>every writer on staff gets forced to work with Hollywood and Gucci and Hot Chips on a 5 year multi-media plan to introduce and support the Captain Laotian Identity debut
>no one buys
>market research still says that Captain Identifiable is popular
>market research still says second-generational Laotian immigrants aren't buying comics
>this is your life now
>market research still says that Captain Identifiable is popular
market research = bunch of bots and non-comic readers on Twitter
>market research still says second-generational Laotian immigrants aren't buying comics
market research = actual market research
Punchline serves a function and will stick around
>serves a function
my cum dumpster
Anon, Harley Quinn appeared in cartoons, had her own solo book, a live action appearance, and was going to be the main villain of a film and was still a c-list nobody. It wasn't until Arkham Asylum that Harley became actually popular and that was in 2009 - 16 years after her creation.
>Kamala has been pushed for literally a decade - appearing in movies, games, and cartoons - and she STILL isn't popular.
Kamala's TPBs are consistently near the top of Amazon's Marvel Comics sales chart. The move from a regular ongoing to mini after mini can capitalize on her aftermarket popularity by crafting interconnected single arc stories without the hassle of an ongoing series.
Legitimate Kamala fan here what's a TPBs?
TPB stands for trade paperback. As opposed to floppies, hardcovers, or omnibuses.
Oh those are how I buy my comic books and the paperbacks.
Punchline had a number of opportunities that would fit the current climate, but they just don't know how to write it because they're terrible on the subject
Kamala is still a popular character, & still has good sales thanks to trades, but the issue is they were slow in building her cast & story, but rushed her into more crossovers & team-ups when she needed more time to develop, & didn't delved much into her community. It would have improved over time, but they then made her into a mutant & a member of the X-Men. That takes away what made her a great character because all she has been since in the beginning was a street-level hero, who sometimes do Avengers-like adventures, but still was part of her community & protecting the neighbourhood. As of this point only limited series is what's going to keep her going, but really they need to unto the whole Mutant things & just make her Inhuman again, and as a street-level hero
Because nerds like you hate change
Kamala was popular for a comic and ground up. She just got bummed rushed into everything else and killed her entire supporting cast to do it. Basically if Marvel took Spider-Man and killed off everything about him to put him on the avengers after 15 issues.
Was punchline pushed at all outside comics? She was the response that coomers can sell shit but that seems dead.
Punchline was only created because Tynion 4 used his time at Batman to create as many characters as possible so he could get creator credit royalties if DC ever adapted any of them in to live action or games. Editorial also didn't allow James to use the Batman characters he wanted to, so he just invented new ones.
Ms Marvel is the self insert of Marvel VP Sana Amanat who is also her co-creator. Sana will keep pushing Ms Marvel as the new Peter Parker face of young Marvel because of her huge ego, and also because she gets creator royalties every time Kamala appears in anything.
So you think the moment Sana gets sacked, we're gonna see Kamala fade away?
Yes, if Sana ever leaves, Ms Marvel's push will end. I think in Marvel's dream world they would hard pivot completely to Miles and end the Ms Marvel experiment, but Sana Amanat is not allowing it.
No but when Sana does finally get sacked, they’ll finally allow Kamala to lose her virginity like most girls her age.
How many of the Champions have actually been confirmed to have lost their virginity?
Not pictured here, but America definitely has. If you count scissoring and finger popping that is.
America isn't a Champion.
Power Man and White Tiger were going at it constantly in the margins of their '10s books.
Shes not? Damn, I must be getting her mixed up then, sorry.
All good.
The core members of the Champions were Ms. Marvel (Kamala), Spider-Man (Miles), Nova (Sam), Brawn, Viv Vision, and Cyclops. Eventually Cyclops left and Iron Heart and the Wasp (Nadia) joined.
Technically his teenage self went back to his own time but revive adult Cyclops got his memory. And now noticeably has a soft spot for the champions.It's basically how in Universe Kamala ended up a mutant .
And when he went back to his own time he... left the team.
It won't be Miles. She'll fall off and frick someone's self-insert like Ellis did with Pete Wisdom.
>Avengers Areana 2.0 where her classmate gets killed in a Squid Game knock Off and she has sex with Aiden Gillespie because Dennis Hopeless moved on from yellow fever to Haram fetishization.
No way Kamala is going to lose her virginity on her wedding night.
>capeshit enjoyers kvetch about moegays being pedos
>meanwhile, on Cinemaphile:
I've never kvetched about that. I've said many times and I'll say again that one of the last cards Marvel has left to play is a Carol/Kamala relationship. Carol is 30, Kamala is 16ish, but love prevails. I want to see it, and it would move variant covers. She's old enough to risk her life, she's old enough to kiss Carol on the anus. I know it and you know it.
>kiss Carol on the anus.
Old enough to bleed, old enough to breed with my delicious infidel meat.
Probably not. What anon fails to mention is that Kamala's creator credit is split five ways and Sana is a mid-level exec.
Wait, after all this time people have been naming her as the sole reason Kamala still exists. she's a mid-level exec?Legitimately asking how much power does he actually have at Marvel?
She seems to be the face the of her push is always the one doing the talking. Wilson wrote the book but is never in any interviews pushing Kamala publicly like Sana does. At the very least Sana is the mouthpiece for the kamala push.
All this editorial and corporate bullshit kills any and all creativity
There is mo solution
There's always a bit of survivor bias in these threads. Comics have been garbage for so long and pushing garbage that the readership has really spiraled down the drain, but as a result most of what's left discussing it are the people who actually like the diarrhea getting published. It's why everything can decline year over year, but you can come here and always find some Baghdad Bob type figure to swear it's going well.
1) they can, but the character has to be introduced with other main characters, and they have to be written well or compelling
2) normies don't read comics
3) the way new characters are introduced or handled can drive comic readers away
Only millennials who watched the cartoons care about capeshit. Zoomers and Alphers only care about manga.
>but she dropped off everyone's radar like 4 months after her debut.
People who don’t read comics really need to STFU
You're proving OP's point. If the only people who care about your new character are the minority of avid comic readers, your character flopped. The modern comic audience is too small for comic fanatics to be the only people who care about your shit.
Kamala represents everything that women in America hate and men can't be attracted to women in burkas, or wearing these MCU-style military costumes, failed project And Punchline has the generic look of a rejected Street Fighter character, Punchline has the typical look of something created under Jim Lee management
Part of the problem is that the metrics for success are wildly overblown now. If a character isn't selling Batman/Spider-man numbers out of the gate and topping the charts they're deemed a failure.
That's what reminds me of when I was having an argument in the video game thread if Kamala was a success or not. And someone actually had this standard.
Well it certainly is a success, but whether that's the bare minimum is another matter entirely.
People focus so much on new, that they forget good. A fresh new turd is still a turd. I don't want new characters, I want new characters that are actually interesting in some way.
I would also point out that comics haven't made anything truly new in a long time, the newest anything gets is "same character...BUT BLACK WOW!"
The "new" Miles literally just wears Peter's costume, has Peter's powers, interacts with Peter's characters. Hell they even call him Spider-Man, they couldn't be bothered to give him his own super name.
Your own example, Punchline, is just "wow a new Harley Quinn! whaaaaaaat?!?!?" When's the last time they did anything that was straight up new and actually decent? The quality is garbage, and Bendis jerking off to blacked porn isn't exactly an enticing character concept.
>When's the last time they did anything that was straight up new and actually decent?
The Blue Marvel. Not his origin story, that was garbage, but all the All Ewing team books. Mighty Avengers. Ultimates. Defenders.
>Blue Marvel
I like him in concept but come on compared to characters this board hates he's a literally who. No media appearances outside of comics at all.
That's not what they asked though, right?
The newest character to get a MCU or Marvel cartoon push is probably Echo, and she's boring AF.
Actually surprised Marvel scraped the barrel for her. Theres still a couple dozen more heroes not done yet with more relevance than fricking Echo. I consider myself reasonably well versed in Marvel comics, and I forgot she even existed.
Echo lets them push the idea of the disabled not actually being disabled, which is the latest wokester insanity.
They might try Daredevil, but he doesn't tick the other boxes.
Of course. Gotta triple dip into the POC woman angle as well.
>That's not what they asked though, right?
Honestly it's unclear. The metrics for "catching on" or "being a success" seem incredibly fluid on this board and ultimately just boils down to a way for OPs to shit on characters they personally dislike regardless of whether or not they sell or get used or are liked by normies.
Like how there's literally nothing Miles Morales can do or be in that will convince some people here that maybe he's liked by the masses.
Is there any sales drop off or any number of public admissions that any other character would have been cancelled that will convince some people here that maybe he isn't?
If those figures were given with context and applied across the board, sure. But it's patently disingenuous when nobody's coming after Punisher or Thor for having books that do similarly poor or worse numbers than Miles or Kamala or Carol.
(And I fricking hate Carol)
>nobody's coming after Punisher or Thor
Nobody needs to, because neither character is being smashed over 24/7 for a decade. If anything marvel tries to hide Punisher now.
>If anything marvel tries to hide Punisher now.
More like they want to bury him, if Jason Aaron's latest run is any indication.
That was for MCU Synergy not to make him all while event to random people. And we haven't seen them use it in the MCU yet so we don't know what the plans are by making her mutant in it They had the legitimate problems made by real life police officers using his symbol with no awareness get the guy does not want Cops acting like him even before black lives matter was a thing..I ones asked Punisher has any self-awareness and got this.
That's one of the most embarrassing reddit-blog-post-read-by-character pages I've seen. Like that thread with Batman investigating real life crimes. Shit like this makes getting caught reading comics feel like getting caught with porn. It's outrageously embarrassing now.
Punisher telling police to not be like him and actually do what they made an oath to do is somehow related to Reddit?
>Honestly it's unclear. The metrics for "catching on" or "being a success" seem incredibly fluid on this board
Not really. A lot of Cinemaphile doesn't like Miles Morales but nobody would deny Miles is a successful character. Probably the last "true" success Bendis will ever have in his career. He's known by general audiences, has had several major roles in media that turned a good profit, and he can even move his own merch; not as well as Peter Parker can but honestly no Marvel character besides Wolverine can do that.
Jon Kent was another new character who became popular within the decade after his debut. He actually became popular quicker than Miles did, and he even managed to boost Damian Wayne's popularity too with the Supersons books. Bizarrely, unlike Marvel with Miles, DC failed to capitalize on Jon's popularity as a kid hero. Instead they decided to age and queer him up; completely destroying his popularity and relevancy in the process. I've never seen a new character with so much potential get murked as savagely by editorial at either of the Big 2 as Jon Kent was. I still have no idea what the frick DC was thinking, or even what they plan to do with this homie now. He's almost broken beyond repair, and his current existence in the continuity has been reduced to being a walking LGBT flag.
>but nobody would deny Miles is a successful character
I'm denying it at this very moment. Miles has succeeded as a tag-along to actual successful characters, and has otherwise simply had the machine behind him relentlessly, to a degree that even Kamala hasn't enjoyed. Take the exact same character, stop calling him Spider-Man, give him his own outfit, and let him stand on his own. See how successful he is.
>Take the exact same character, stop calling him Spider-Man, give him his own outfit, and let him stand on his own. See how successful he is.
It's amazing how many characters created in the last couple decades fricking die were they to take this simple test.
Miguel and Mayday are literally the only ones who could survive with the Spider-mantle. Which is ironic because there the only ones who SHOULD be called Spider-Man (or girl) because there's no Peter Parker Spider-Man swinging around already in their timelines.
Blue Marvel stinks.
Something this board never seems to address is that the successful characters of the past had an unfair advantage in that the way stories were told was way different. They had an opportunity to get iconic arcs without being constantly dragged into crossover events. New characters not only lack that, but they're often intrinsically tied to those big dumb crossover events. It limits their potential and ability to grow undisturbed.
If anything, crossover events should help by forcing people to look at a character they don't care about otherwise. But they're such empty husks that even a few thousand extra eyeballs can't generate a new fan.
>If anything, crossover events should help by forcing people to look at a character they don't care about otherwise.
Except it usually comes at a cost of depriving those characters of focused individualized growth. Can't spend time developing their rogue's gallery when they're off fighting Galactus or Celestials or other capes.
But to be fair I'm mostly thinking of Miles and Kamala when I say this. Those two can barely make it 12 straight issues without some big crossover being forced on them and derailing everything else. Or Robbie Reyes. His second volume was a stealth team book where he was barely a supporting character.
What interesting thing has Punchline even done? From what I read in Joker War is that she's just a boring henchgirl that uses social media and in TMWSL, Punchline isn't even with the Joker anymore.
She's All New and All Different
>Punchline isn't even with the Joker anymore
Amazing how quickly they lost sight of what her intended role was supposed to be. Now she pretty much exists as filler villain with some coombait.
I was going to say Homelander but then I remembered
Punchline wasn't a character, she's a mouthpiece for the Joker's internet fanbase.
Kamala is popular, but Cinemaphile will downplay any character that isn't white.
>"Kamala is popular"
>everything she's starred in within the past half decade tends to do poorly, their latest Hail Mary to make her relevant by making her a mutant has done her no favors
>the only "popularity" she has around here is coombrains wanting to frick her or have her frick someone
That's not popularity, you're confusing your coomer instincts with a lot of people recognizing and liking her.
she's starred in within the past half decade tends to do poorly, their latest Hail Mary to make her relevant by making her a mutant has done her no favors
That was for MCU Synergy not to make him all while event to random people. And we haven't seen them use it in the MCU yet so we don't know what the plans are by making her mutant in it .
>That was for MCU Synergy not to make him all while event to random people.
Are you having a stroke?
>And we haven't seen them use it in the MCU yet so we don't know what the plans are by making her mutant in it .
Like I said, it was a Hail Mary, Marvel's been working overtime to erase the Inhumans, but since that would affect Kamala, they transformed her into a mutant in an attempt to save her and try to keep her relevant.
You think they made her mutant in the MCU for her own sake in the comics?Just to keep her relevant?
Like others have said, there are people in Marvel hugely invested into keeping her going despite her constant failures to gain traction with the public. Marvel's next push is the mutants, so they have to make her one to try to keep her relevant. Despite this, everything she's shown up in with the new status quo has done nothing to help her keep her head above water.
>Then why is she still Inhuman also in the comic?
>current marketing: "KAMALA IS NOW A MUTANT! WHAT DOES HER NEW MUTANT IDENTITY MEAN FOR HER THIS MOMENT FORWARD?! CAN HER NEWFOUND MUTANTNESS HELP HER SURVIVE HER SPECIES' EXTINCTIBRAJFAVLVJARB-"
Anon, that page doesn't mean shit, it's a half-assed attempt at synergy, even her death lasted all of two weeks both in the books and in real life.
>Not really. A lot of Cinemaphile doesn't like Miles Morales but nobody would deny Miles is a successful character.
Mostly because he was tied to an already hugely successful character, and by tied I mean practically growing out of Peter Parker's ass, fighting who he fights, eating what he eats, being directly involved in his circle, having the same powers but better while also having more, right down to sharing his fricking title, with the only difference is that he's black. It sure as hell isn't his character, because he's still as flat as cardboard, it's mostly the "gotta have their Spider-Man" effect.
>Marvel's been working overtime to erase the Inhumans,
Then why is she still Inhuman also in the comic?
Probably to save face, they wouldn't want to actively admit that it was a bad idea.
Honestly Kamala being an inhuman always felt forced. One of her earliest team ups is with Wolverine and she even asks if she might be a mutant. It comes off like she was supposed to be but then the whole thing with Perlmutter forcing Inhumans happened and something in Kamala's backstory got retconned.
I feel inhumans should never have been on par with mutants, but it's a difficult thing to retcon without it being stupid.
It's tough introducing characters to a shared universe this late in the game. All the archetypes and niches and functions are already accounted for, so you can't introduce someone without having them stepping on someone's toes.
In terms of DC and Marvel, beet solution would be to internationalize, making heroes and stories that are based in other countries rather than the US. That way they can have a bubble for themselves without having the other heroes get involved needlessly and still be allowed to join in on crossovers and events.