> was the heir and successor to Batman > was the go to self insert for younger teen heroines and older milf heroes > was the relatable teen self insert hero for fans > gets BTFO’d and mogged by all his brothers, including fricking Damian > has all his girlfriends taken from him > has no identity whatsoever > loses all sex appeal and becomes reduced to shitty merch bait in a marketing stunt
He will literally never recover from this, it’s over
Tim becoming the heir to Batman was his bad end. Not just because the Johns future Titans shit where he becomes GunsKill Batman, but because it meant becoming dependent on the lifestyle and never being able to go back to normalcy.
Check out Robin 116-120 for what I'd basically consider the end of classic Tim. Batman puts him through a gauntlet of believing one of the batfamily will betray them and take over Gotham in the next 10 years and he's pushed to his breaking point. At the end he considers the choice to walk away, or push further and become more into the job..and he ends up choosing the later.
Don’t forget when they killed off Tim’s entire family and supporting cast, everything that allowed him to exist outside of the Batfamily as his own person. Without them, Tim had no reason to be Tim Drake, he was Robin forever
11 months ago
Anonymous
>Without them, Tim had no reason to be Tim Drake, he was Robin forever
And then New 52 happened and he wasn't even Tim Drake anymore, just "Tim Drake".
11 months ago
Anonymous
Then there's also Johns pushing Superboy as Tim's closest relationship which basically made him come off as gayer than he'd ever been in canon
Meanwhile in 150+ issues of Tim's solo he appears like 3 times
11 months ago
Anonymous
>killed off Tim’s entire family and supporting cast
NOT ALL HIS SUPPORTING CAST BABY
11 months ago
Anonymous
That's not Bernard, that's just his skin.
>implying nobody cares about Bernard
Every character has fans, somehow, Bernard is no different
https://twitter.com/redhoodluvr/status/1672346510921482241
There's always a fan, but that's not really what I'm talking about. Jay and Bernard have failed to gain traction among the wider audience.
The problem with being "the smart one" in a group full of already smart people only means that everyone else will have to act moronic to make Tim look better.
People want power rankings and have trouble with the concept of everyone operating at the same general level but being unequal within that level. They're superheroes, they're already working at 99.9 percentile rank, at some point you're just quibbling.
Batman really was the absolute fricking worse across the 90s. Like just the worst, most miserable jackass ever. Did anyone really LIKE Bruce as a character during this period? I mean people meme about some of his stuff like punching Guy and shit, but he was just the worst fricking human being short of being an actual criminal.
That said, it's probably true that if Tim had retired from the caped life prior to his dad's death, he never would have seen Bruce again. Even at his best, Bruce doesn't really have breaks or catch up with people. By day he's either doing his day job or getting involved with some charity or researching some crime or whatever, while by night he's Batman. He doesn't take time off, he doesn't go out to get coffee with people. Most of his "social life" is just him putting up appearances and it's all part of the overall strategy of protecting Gotham. The only way Tim could continue being a part of Bruce's life after retiring from superheroics is by actually becoming a part of the Wayne family, which I guess is what ended up happening, even if they had to kill his dad and piss everyone off to do it.
11 months ago
Anonymous
Batman has cool stories in the 90s. Knightfall, Azrael, and No Man’s Land being my favorite. But everything outside of that they made Batman deeply unlikable.
Does anyone have a history of Batman writers/producers/media making him a grim dark jackass? I feel like it was a violent overreaction to Batman and Robin + trying to capture the success of Alan Moore’s Killing Joke
11 months ago
Anonymous
It's honestly shit like this that makes me actually appreciate Batman & Robin. Batman is at his most compassionate in that film. Yes, the movie has a lot of flaws, but the mere fact that Batman saved the city, saved Freeze's wife and even arranged things so that Freeze could continue his research into finding a cure for the disease that afflicted her is something I just can't criticize. I mean it's completely unreasonable and illogical to allow someone like Freeze to keep doing research in an insane asylum but I guess by this point Batman's saved the city so many times that literally everyone and their mother owes him a thousand favors. But regardless, this is one of Batman's few true victories in ANY media. He saves Freeze's wife, reignites Freeze's faith in humanity and allows him to continue his research, thus removing any reason for Freeze to return to supervillainy. He's probably even funding Freeze's research as Bruce Wayne. He actually permanently put an end to a supervillain's criminal activities without killing or crippling him while also enabling research to put an end to a fatal disease. That shit's like one of THE biggest victories a superhero has ever fricking had.
11 months ago
Anonymous
Gigs based Batman and Robin enjoyer, it’s one of the most fun movies I’ve ever watched. Pure triumph and victory
11 months ago
Anonymous
>Did anyone really LIKE Bruce as a character during this period?
Denny O'Neil did.
11 months ago
Anonymous
Batman has cool stories in the 90s. Knightfall, Azrael, and No Man’s Land being my favorite. But everything outside of that they made Batman deeply unlikable.
Does anyone have a history of Batman writers/producers/media making him a grim dark jackass? I feel like it was a violent overreaction to Batman and Robin + trying to capture the success of Alan Moore’s Killing Joke
Giant butthole Bruce doesn't really take off until the end of the decade. And even in spite of that, Bruce puts in enough appearances under so many different writers that you're always getting at least one non-butthole depiction a month.
> was the heir and successor to Batman > was the go to self insert for shipping younger teen heroines and older milf heroes > was the relatable teen self insert hero for fans
Here's a valuable lesson: you can't beat Dick Grayson at his own game. Learn your place, Timbros. It's in the trash.
>gotten so bad has to steal other bat families' mantle
Just can't win
>has to steal other bat families' mantle
Ah, classic Tim.
Steph was the one who wanted to keep the baby, Tim kind of wanted to abort it and said she couldn't keep it.
Tim pressured her to place her baby with an adoptive family. Aborting the baby is out of the question for even the greenest of heroes.
This was an edited cope in an era where Tim was lusting for Conner.
Supergirl was chasing Nightwing and Hal Jordan while blueballing Boomerang Jr.
Miss Martian briefly flirted with Kid Devil then went back into obscurity till Young Justice started
Ravager tried to frick him so he wouldn't kick her off the Titans
Tim made out with Wonder Girl to see if he could get some of Superboy's jizz off her lips
Tim/Steph was great
Tim/Cass was cringe
They wanted him to be Red Robin forever.
I think just before Damian debuted they wanted to kind of retire the whole Batman & Robin dynamic and make the (Red) Robin mantle a standalone hero.
Honestly, yeah. Dick could always be Nightwing. Jason found his place as the Red Hood. Tim had to share his place with the aggressively pushed Damian, and the change to Red Robin did not work because the Red Robin suit was horrible.
Genuinely what could fix Tim at this point? I feel like retirement is taking the easy way out, but it might be for the best. Send him off to be gay with Bernard for 5 to 10 years until a writer actually has a long term idea for him.
The guy who originally made Anarky said he wanted him to be Robin, unironically making Tim Anarky would be the only thing that gives him a unique identity and could salvage him
An actually well-written solo. That's it really. All the b***hing about gay shit and Fitzmartin's attitude covers up the fact that his last few years have been boring and at best mediocre. Once you get decent stories for him you can worry about the rest, which I'd start with a soft retcon that restores his parents and normal life since he's the Bat character defined by that. The sad thing is that Tim isn't the only character in this bad a shape. Damian has nothing going for him, Steph and Cass have had their histories gutted and their personal traits stripped away, it's clear no one has any idea what to do with Jason, and Babs is now "the girlfriend." Dick's barely hanging on by a thread, and he's being hard carried by things related to him rather than his stories.
>Genuinely what could fix Tim at this point?
Honestly, just make him gay. And not discount gay, actually gay. Take a fricking risk for once and do something with your character DC.
>Dick is the og, is the star of the Teen Titans and gets to breed Starfire every night and manages to break free from Batman and become Nightwing >Jason has the tragedy of getting merked by Joker and came back to life as the super cool Red Hood >Damien is the current Robin and is a cute edgy little scrimblo >Tim is... uh..........
>Dick is the diet-coke Batman in discount Gotham >Jason is the completely defanged bad boy and obedient rebel >Damian is a shithead learning how to be a good boy for the 8th or 9th time >Tim has a boyfriend
I mean he basically is, I don't think they've ever used the words "gay" or "bisexual to actually describe him in the comics, he's just been dating a boy.
The stupidest part about Tim and Jon being bi is that Superboy and the Robins had a Fujo audience for a long time, but always in the context of them being gay with other established cast members. Fujos ship boys together cause a lot of the female love interests are trash or irrelevant. So then, when Jon and Tim are made bi, they don’t date any of the other major male characters (who fujos shipped them with) they were shipped with some random literally who gives a frick no name npc. What’s even the point of making someone bi when the guys they date are the shittiest, most generic lvoe interests imaginable? I can understand the appeal of shipping super boy with damian or the robins with each other but what’s the appeal of them witj some random dude? I wouldn’t be interested in Jon or Tim dating some random irrelevant girl with no name or personality either
Fujos are perfectly fine shipping characters with OCs, they just forget than no one gives a shit about their OCs. Thing is, you can build a fanbase for a new love interest as long as you put the work in. The issue is that no one is interested in putting the work in. Love interests are frequently not very interesting characters on their own but usually have interesting dynamics with the hero but Jay and Bernard don't have that to fall back on. They're boring. Taylor went out of his way to remove any kind of interesting aspects from Jay and gave him superpowers on top of that, Fitzmartin removed Bernard's personality and replaced it with constantly repeating how perf he is.
It's pretty annoying because Bernard had an actual personality. Kind of smarmy butthole. It would be so much better if Tim was dating the old version of him.
>Tim constantly gushes over how perfect Bernard is >eight weeks in the honeymoon phase ends and Tim wonders why the frick would he ever agree to date Bernard
At least he has being hot going for him.
>How should we draw Tim? >He's an experienced martial artist and gymnast, so lean but heavily muscled and solid. >Got it, mincing twig.
[...]
Officially from DC.
Dick hasn't led shit in years, Jason has come to terms with his past, Tim spends a normal amount of time online, and Damian hasn't spent time around assassins since 4th grade.
Dick and Jason are the attractive older guys and Damian is there for women into shotas. Tim is completely bland and forgettable next to them. Dark hair? Ripped? He’s indistinguishable from Dick and Jason, no wonder he’s turned into the twink.
Remember when Arkham made skinhead Robin? I unironicallly think making Tim the swole jacked skinhead Robin is the only thing that can save him design wise
>implying nobody cares about Bernard
Every character has fans, somehow, Bernard is no different
https://twitter.com/redhoodluvr/status/1672346510921482241
Kon and Tim was the end goal, but now that Jon is gay, Konner can't be.
And no one likes Jon or Tim's boyfriends. So they managed to frick up both characters.
Nothing that's happened to him since IC has been something fujos would have tolerated. If a real fujo had been involved all along, the character would be in a much better position.
Fujos are perfectly fine shipping characters with OCs, they just forget than no one gives a shit about their OCs. Thing is, you can build a fanbase for a new love interest as long as you put the work in. The issue is that no one is interested in putting the work in. Love interests are frequently not very interesting characters on their own but usually have interesting dynamics with the hero but Jay and Bernard don't have that to fall back on. They're boring. Taylor went out of his way to remove any kind of interesting aspects from Jay and gave him superpowers on top of that, Fitzmartin removed Bernard's personality and replaced it with constantly repeating how perf he is.
lol no they're not, OC love interests are one of the biggest red flags of badfic and they're never popular.
That's not Bernard, that's just his skin.
[...]
There's always a fan, but that's not really what I'm talking about. Jay and Bernard have failed to gain traction among the wider audience.
[...]
People want power rankings and have trouble with the concept of everyone operating at the same general level but being unequal within that level. They're superheroes, they're already working at 99.9 percentile rank, at some point you're just quibbling.
Unlike Jay, Bernard is at least enough of an entity (and good-looking enough) for fujos to give the ship the old college try. It has some content, which is more than you can say for Jon's. But it's never going to take off if DC keeps failing to use the characters correctly.
>Dick is the og, is the star of the Teen Titans and gets to breed Starfire every night and manages to break free from Batman and become Nightwing >Jason has the tragedy of getting merked by Joker and came back to life as the super cool Red Hood >Damien is the current Robin and is a cute edgy little scrimblo >Tim is... uh..........
[...] >Dick is the diet-coke Batman in discount Gotham >Jason is the completely defanged bad boy and obedient rebel >Damian is a shithead learning how to be a good boy for the 8th or 9th time >Tim has a boyfriend
Dick and Jason are the attractive older guys and Damian is there for women into shotas. Tim is completely bland and forgettable next to them. Dark hair? Ripped? He’s indistinguishable from Dick and Jason, no wonder he’s turned into the twink.
> have majority male audience > have character who had predominantly male audience of self inserts who liked watching him with girls > make him bi > pair him up with other, unattractive men > wonder why sales flop
You would unironically sell more if DC made an official fujo batfamily with Bruce and the robins being yaoi for each other, at least you’d be targeting the right audience
The problem with being "the smart one" in a group full of already smart people only means that everyone else will have to act moronic to make Tim look better.
I hate people on both sides of that argument, because it's incredibly easy to make multiple characters who are smart at different specialties without making the others look moronic, characters being omnidisciplinary geniuses because "durr he da smart one so he smart at everything" is lazy bullshit every single time.
They very briefly had something in Young Justice, granted it was just them sitting with each other at a wedding. But both of them are doomed in terms of adaptations because it's either going to be Dick and Babs or Damian and Cass now. Maybe Duke. Tim being gay is the only thing he has as a token and even then WB seems obsessed with pushing damian.
>They very briefly had something in Young Justice, granted it was just them sitting with each other at a wedding.
YJ would have made him such a homosexual.
>it was just them sitting with each other at a wedding.
If it was literally just that, the other anon is right, they would 100% have him in a committed relationship with Bernard after the obligatory timeskip.
When they made Aqualad Bi, they introduced some random fricking guy to be his boyfriend despite building up a relationship with an established character for nearly an entire season. This is the exact same thing that happened with Tim and Jon’s boyfriends - all his relationships with girls, with years of history, is thrown to the trash to ship him with some literally who nameless NPC. YJ would have made Tim date Steph or whatever for two seasons and then had him dump her for some nameless guy the moment comics made him bi
>it was just them sitting with each other at a wedding.
If it was literally just that, the other anon is right, they would 100% have him in a committed relationship with Bernard after the obligatory timeskip.
DC got infiltrated by nostalgic old men who threw away all progress they made post-crises and made it the soup of pointless continuity it is now. Its honestly shocking as a modern reader going back to post crises and seeing all the effort for better or worse that went into it. New52 was successful but frick me did it irreparably damage the entire metatextual environent, all the classic and/or new versions exist, so the 80s-90s legacies are pointless, so they try to do something new with them, and end up torching their still-loyal fanbase.
Wally? Ruined
Kyle? Forgotten
Tim? Stripped of their history, then upon regaining it, made gay for hollow media outrage
Because the tumblr crowd actually likes the batfamily’s pre 52 history and relationship dynamics, and do their best to use the original ideas. Obviously not as perfect as possible, but unironically more accurate then modern dc
>likes the batfamily’s pre 52 history
Kek. They don't know what pre- 52 is and neither do you. It's just an americain family sitcom with Batfam filling the usual archetypes of the genre. >unironically more accurate then modern dc
Modern DC is shit but this isn't mor faithfull or whatever. It's a different direction were every characters are equal, unlike comics.
Identity Crisis killed his dad
War Games killed Steph
Infinite Crisis killed Superboy
Damian becoming canon left him jobless
New 52 fricked things up further
Turned gay in a desperate ploy for relevancy
You see the problem with Tim's downfall is that it all started when Jason Todd came back. Damian was the nail to the coffin but Jason fricking Todd was the beginning of the end of Tim Drake.
Jason coming back makes Tim's story of becoming Robin pointless, he was supposed to be the successor to the failure of Jason's Robin. But with Jason coming back? Whoops, all that guilt that Bruce had, and Tim's pressure to live up, and surpass Jason is all gone. It displaced Tim's role in the Batfamily, but he still has a role in competing with Jason to prove that he's better than Jason as a Robin. But then Damian happened, and we all know that story. Damian being added to the cast displaced Tim's role even more, with Jason being there, and a new Robin in the role. Tim's role and place was basically frick all.
Frick Jason and Damian, they're the reason why Tim Drake is in a hot mess right now. Should have at least kept one of them dead, or both.
Jason had nothing to do with it, because under a writer that isn't moronic he would want nothing to do with being Bruce's heroic sidekick again, meaning Tim's role is strengthened, not weakened, by committing himself to being the hero that Jason failed to be. You can have constant back and forth between the two where Tim tries to uphold the ideals that a revived Jason thinks are pointless.
Damian wouldn't be a problem IF he wasn't a Robin, because you could have the same thing where Damian is constantly wanting to be more pragmatic and merciless toward criminals while again Tim is the one upholding the ideals. In that circumstance, Damian and Jason make each other redundant.
Really the problem is just lazy crap writers who don't want to take the extremely small amount of effort to make all the character relationships work.
>You see the problem with Tim's downfall is that it all started when Jason Todd came back. >Frick Jason and Damian, they're the reason why Tim Drake is in a hot mess right now
No, what ruined Tim was that they took away his family and social life that defined him. He had what Bruce, Dick, Jason and Damian didn't.
This guy gets it. Why do so many tards blame Jason and Damian? The problem was killing Jack and putting Dana on a bus.
Hindsight is 20/20, we can look back at it now and see why Tim would be made irrelevant after Damian came on, as Bruce having a biological son ripped away any chance of him being Robin and a future Batman and him staying more normal like he was in the 90s probably would've helped him weather Damian's introduction.
But the time of DC breaking Tim down by killing his parents, Steph, and Kon, they were pushing him to hell and back. If anything at the time DICK was considered the irrelevant Robin by fans because it seemed like DC stopped caring about him. His book was even more miserable than Tim's, he had given up Titans due to Donna's death, he was awful in Outsiders (even if they did advertise/push that book), and he was now without the idea of being considered Batman's successor (because they were pushing Tim as that). Then Didio wanted to kill off the character and basically pawn his shit off to Tim and Jason didn't help (Titans and being THE future Batman for Tim, Outsiders/Nightwing mantle to Jason).
Morrison quite literally saved Dick narratively, meta-wise, and in the eyes of fans by making him Batman.
He had every bit of uniqueness stripped away from him, from him being the only Robin to have present parents to his work as a detective until there was literally nothing left for him so they bandaided it by making him bi.
we've fallen so far Timbros
> was the heir and successor to Batman
> was the go to self insert for younger teen heroines and older milf heroes
> was the relatable teen self insert hero for fans
> gets BTFO’d and mogged by all his brothers, including fricking Damian
> has all his girlfriends taken from him
> has no identity whatsoever
> loses all sex appeal and becomes reduced to shitty merch bait in a marketing stunt
He will literally never recover from this, it’s over
>> was the heir and successor to Batman
Congrats you made the same mistake DCs editors did that ruined Tim in the first place.
Elaborate anon
Tim was never a full time hero, it was his side gig while he had a normal life on the side.
> dc makes hero character who intends to retire
> doesn’t retire him
> wonders why he doesn’t have any character anymore
Tim becoming the heir to Batman was his bad end. Not just because the Johns future Titans shit where he becomes GunsKill Batman, but because it meant becoming dependent on the lifestyle and never being able to go back to normalcy.
Check out Robin 116-120 for what I'd basically consider the end of classic Tim. Batman puts him through a gauntlet of believing one of the batfamily will betray them and take over Gotham in the next 10 years and he's pushed to his breaking point. At the end he considers the choice to walk away, or push further and become more into the job..and he ends up choosing the later.
this run is underrated. Plotting is all over the place but characterization is great.
Don’t forget when they killed off Tim’s entire family and supporting cast, everything that allowed him to exist outside of the Batfamily as his own person. Without them, Tim had no reason to be Tim Drake, he was Robin forever
>Without them, Tim had no reason to be Tim Drake, he was Robin forever
And then New 52 happened and he wasn't even Tim Drake anymore, just "Tim Drake".
Then there's also Johns pushing Superboy as Tim's closest relationship which basically made him come off as gayer than he'd ever been in canon
Meanwhile in 150+ issues of Tim's solo he appears like 3 times
>killed off Tim’s entire family and supporting cast
NOT ALL HIS SUPPORTING CAST BABY
That's not Bernard, that's just his skin.
There's always a fan, but that's not really what I'm talking about. Jay and Bernard have failed to gain traction among the wider audience.
People want power rankings and have trouble with the concept of everyone operating at the same general level but being unequal within that level. They're superheroes, they're already working at 99.9 percentile rank, at some point you're just quibbling.
Batman really was the absolute fricking worse across the 90s. Like just the worst, most miserable jackass ever. Did anyone really LIKE Bruce as a character during this period? I mean people meme about some of his stuff like punching Guy and shit, but he was just the worst fricking human being short of being an actual criminal.
That said, it's probably true that if Tim had retired from the caped life prior to his dad's death, he never would have seen Bruce again. Even at his best, Bruce doesn't really have breaks or catch up with people. By day he's either doing his day job or getting involved with some charity or researching some crime or whatever, while by night he's Batman. He doesn't take time off, he doesn't go out to get coffee with people. Most of his "social life" is just him putting up appearances and it's all part of the overall strategy of protecting Gotham. The only way Tim could continue being a part of Bruce's life after retiring from superheroics is by actually becoming a part of the Wayne family, which I guess is what ended up happening, even if they had to kill his dad and piss everyone off to do it.
Batman has cool stories in the 90s. Knightfall, Azrael, and No Man’s Land being my favorite. But everything outside of that they made Batman deeply unlikable.
Does anyone have a history of Batman writers/producers/media making him a grim dark jackass? I feel like it was a violent overreaction to Batman and Robin + trying to capture the success of Alan Moore’s Killing Joke
It's honestly shit like this that makes me actually appreciate Batman & Robin. Batman is at his most compassionate in that film. Yes, the movie has a lot of flaws, but the mere fact that Batman saved the city, saved Freeze's wife and even arranged things so that Freeze could continue his research into finding a cure for the disease that afflicted her is something I just can't criticize. I mean it's completely unreasonable and illogical to allow someone like Freeze to keep doing research in an insane asylum but I guess by this point Batman's saved the city so many times that literally everyone and their mother owes him a thousand favors. But regardless, this is one of Batman's few true victories in ANY media. He saves Freeze's wife, reignites Freeze's faith in humanity and allows him to continue his research, thus removing any reason for Freeze to return to supervillainy. He's probably even funding Freeze's research as Bruce Wayne. He actually permanently put an end to a supervillain's criminal activities without killing or crippling him while also enabling research to put an end to a fatal disease. That shit's like one of THE biggest victories a superhero has ever fricking had.
Gigs based Batman and Robin enjoyer, it’s one of the most fun movies I’ve ever watched. Pure triumph and victory
>Did anyone really LIKE Bruce as a character during this period?
Denny O'Neil did.
Giant butthole Bruce doesn't really take off until the end of the decade. And even in spite of that, Bruce puts in enough appearances under so many different writers that you're always getting at least one non-butthole depiction a month.
Least he'll always be the gay rep for Batman.
Batwoman exists.
>gotten so bad has to steal other bat families' mantle
Just can't win
Why did people want him with Steph anyway, she would have aborted their kid if she ever got pregnant
Steph was the one who wanted to keep the baby, Tim kind of wanted to abort it and said she couldn't keep it.
> was the heir and successor to Batman
> was the go to self insert for shipping younger teen heroines and older milf heroes
> was the relatable teen self insert hero for fans
Here's a valuable lesson: you can't beat Dick Grayson at his own game. Learn your place, Timbros. It's in the trash.
>has to steal other bat families' mantle
Ah, classic Tim.
Tim pressured her to place her baby with an adoptive family. Aborting the baby is out of the question for even the greenest of heroes.
This was an edited cope in an era where Tim was lusting for Conner.
Supergirl was chasing Nightwing and Hal Jordan while blueballing Boomerang Jr.
Miss Martian briefly flirted with Kid Devil then went back into obscurity till Young Justice started
Ravager tried to frick him so he wouldn't kick her off the Titans
Tim made out with Wonder Girl to see if he could get some of Superboy's jizz off her lips
Tim/Steph was great
Tim/Cass was cringe
Tim has sucked wieners since 2003 go seethe
I've always found timgays insufferable, but they didn't deserve this.
Damian. It all goes back to Damian.
Once Tim stopped being THE Robin, it was over.
Did DC really have no plan for Tim other then being Robin forever?
He's gay now.
They wanted him to be Red Robin forever.
I think just before Damian debuted they wanted to kind of retire the whole Batman & Robin dynamic and make the (Red) Robin mantle a standalone hero.
Red Robin was before Damian?
Technically yes, though Tim RR was after Damian.
All they had to do was have him work for the GCPD.
Honestly, yeah. Dick could always be Nightwing. Jason found his place as the Red Hood. Tim had to share his place with the aggressively pushed Damian, and the change to Red Robin did not work because the Red Robin suit was horrible.
Plus he was named after a fricking burger restraunt
Red Robin looked too much Dr. Mid Nite
Tim is a boring character who has no reason to be a superhero other then being a pov character for the audience.
How did his comic end again?
He gets a boyfriend.
So like how Damian's ended but he gets a gf.
It hasn't ended yet, it ends this Tuesday.
He got a boyfriend at the end of his coming out story in Urban Legends.
Genuinely what could fix Tim at this point? I feel like retirement is taking the easy way out, but it might be for the best. Send him off to be gay with Bernard for 5 to 10 years until a writer actually has a long term idea for him.
>Genuinely what could fix Tim at this point?
Outside of retiring? Probably getting HIV for sympathy points.
That's just papering over the fact nobody knows what to do with him. Also no one gives a shit about HIV/AIDS anymore. It doesn't even kill you now.
The guy who originally made Anarky said he wanted him to be Robin, unironically making Tim Anarky would be the only thing that gives him a unique identity and could salvage him
An actually well-written solo. That's it really. All the b***hing about gay shit and Fitzmartin's attitude covers up the fact that his last few years have been boring and at best mediocre. Once you get decent stories for him you can worry about the rest, which I'd start with a soft retcon that restores his parents and normal life since he's the Bat character defined by that. The sad thing is that Tim isn't the only character in this bad a shape. Damian has nothing going for him, Steph and Cass have had their histories gutted and their personal traits stripped away, it's clear no one has any idea what to do with Jason, and Babs is now "the girlfriend." Dick's barely hanging on by a thread, and he's being hard carried by things related to him rather than his stories.
>Genuinely what could fix Tim at this point?
Honestly, just make him gay. And not discount gay, actually gay. Take a fricking risk for once and do something with your character DC.
>Tim Drake Assfricks the DC Universe
>Dick is the diet-coke Batman in discount Gotham
>Jason is the completely defanged bad boy and obedient rebel
>Damian is a shithead learning how to be a good boy for the 8th or 9th time
>Tim has a boyfriend
>Tim Drake Assfricks the DC Universe
>"Commissioner Gordon was right, Bruce. So now I'll do what you couldn't bring yourself to do."
I mean he basically is, I don't think they've ever used the words "gay" or "bisexual to actually describe him in the comics, he's just been dating a boy.
>I mean he basically is
Nah, we need them to confirm him as a gay so we can get this over with. You either go all the way or you don't.
Fujos. The answer is fujos, and DC hiring at least one of them.
Also Damian happening, but mostly it's fujos.
The stupidest part about Tim and Jon being bi is that Superboy and the Robins had a Fujo audience for a long time, but always in the context of them being gay with other established cast members. Fujos ship boys together cause a lot of the female love interests are trash or irrelevant. So then, when Jon and Tim are made bi, they don’t date any of the other major male characters (who fujos shipped them with) they were shipped with some random literally who gives a frick no name npc. What’s even the point of making someone bi when the guys they date are the shittiest, most generic lvoe interests imaginable? I can understand the appeal of shipping super boy with damian or the robins with each other but what’s the appeal of them witj some random dude? I wouldn’t be interested in Jon or Tim dating some random irrelevant girl with no name or personality either
Fujos are perfectly fine shipping characters with OCs, they just forget than no one gives a shit about their OCs. Thing is, you can build a fanbase for a new love interest as long as you put the work in. The issue is that no one is interested in putting the work in. Love interests are frequently not very interesting characters on their own but usually have interesting dynamics with the hero but Jay and Bernard don't have that to fall back on. They're boring. Taylor went out of his way to remove any kind of interesting aspects from Jay and gave him superpowers on top of that, Fitzmartin removed Bernard's personality and replaced it with constantly repeating how perf he is.
It's pretty annoying because Bernard had an actual personality. Kind of smarmy butthole. It would be so much better if Tim was dating the old version of him.
>Tim constantly gushes over how perfect Bernard is
>eight weeks in the honeymoon phase ends and Tim wonders why the frick would he ever agree to date Bernard
>How should we draw Tim?
>He's an experienced martial artist and gymnast, so lean but heavily muscled and solid.
>Got it, mincing twig.
Dick hasn't led shit in years, Jason has come to terms with his past, Tim spends a normal amount of time online, and Damian hasn't spent time around assassins since 4th grade.
Remember when Arkham made skinhead Robin? I unironicallly think making Tim the swole jacked skinhead Robin is the only thing that can save him design wise
>implying nobody cares about Bernard
Every character has fans, somehow, Bernard is no different
https://twitter.com/redhoodluvr/status/1672346510921482241
Kon and Tim was the end goal, but now that Jon is gay, Konner can't be.
And no one likes Jon or Tim's boyfriends. So they managed to frick up both characters.
Nothing that's happened to him since IC has been something fujos would have tolerated. If a real fujo had been involved all along, the character would be in a much better position.
lol no they're not, OC love interests are one of the biggest red flags of badfic and they're never popular.
Unlike Jay, Bernard is at least enough of an entity (and good-looking enough) for fujos to give the ship the old college try. It has some content, which is more than you can say for Jon's. But it's never going to take off if DC keeps failing to use the characters correctly.
>Dick is the og, is the star of the Teen Titans and gets to breed Starfire every night and manages to break free from Batman and become Nightwing
>Jason has the tragedy of getting merked by Joker and came back to life as the super cool Red Hood
>Damien is the current Robin and is a cute edgy little scrimblo
>Tim is... uh..........
Officially from DC.
>bisexual
not even, great detective or most emotionally intelligent, kek
At least he has being hot going for him.
He's not even the hot one of the group.
Dick and Jason are the attractive older guys and Damian is there for women into shotas. Tim is completely bland and forgettable next to them. Dark hair? Ripped? He’s indistinguishable from Dick and Jason, no wonder he’s turned into the twink.
>Tim is completely bland and forgettable next to them.
Baragays and larval pedos tastes are irrelevant. Tim is gorgeous in every way a man can be.
Bisexuality on a male is an excellent way for male readers to not take the comic seriously.
> have majority male audience
> have character who had predominantly male audience of self inserts who liked watching him with girls
> make him bi
> pair him up with other, unattractive men
> wonder why sales flop
You would unironically sell more if DC made an official fujo batfamily with Bruce and the robins being yaoi for each other, at least you’d be targeting the right audience
Tim Drake’s only personality traits:
> being bisexual
> being “muh smart one”
Holy frick if I was a Timgay I think I’d actually kill myself
The problem with being "the smart one" in a group full of already smart people only means that everyone else will have to act moronic to make Tim look better.
I hate people on both sides of that argument, because it's incredibly easy to make multiple characters who are smart at different specialties without making the others look moronic, characters being omnidisciplinary geniuses because "durr he da smart one so he smart at everything" is lazy bullshit every single time.
He's the Ugly one here.
They fricked up by putting a nostalgiagay like Tynion in charge. He immediately regressed Tim to be Robin and then everything got worse from there
Steph needs a new boyfriend so she can put Tim behind her.
I'd just like to point out Tim and Steph's relationship has never been adapted outside of the comics.
They very briefly had something in Young Justice, granted it was just them sitting with each other at a wedding. But both of them are doomed in terms of adaptations because it's either going to be Dick and Babs or Damian and Cass now. Maybe Duke. Tim being gay is the only thing he has as a token and even then WB seems obsessed with pushing damian.
>They very briefly had something in Young Justice, granted it was just them sitting with each other at a wedding.
YJ would have made him such a homosexual.
When they made Aqualad Bi, they introduced some random fricking guy to be his boyfriend despite building up a relationship with an established character for nearly an entire season. This is the exact same thing that happened with Tim and Jon’s boyfriends - all his relationships with girls, with years of history, is thrown to the trash to ship him with some literally who nameless NPC. YJ would have made Tim date Steph or whatever for two seasons and then had him dump her for some nameless guy the moment comics made him bi
Technically, the writer confirms he's homosexual many years before that season.
>it was just them sitting with each other at a wedding.
If it was literally just that, the other anon is right, they would 100% have him in a committed relationship with Bernard after the obligatory timeskip.
Connor died. Thats it, everything went wrong for Tim after that one point.
Tim was already spiraling well on his way downward before then. Conner's death just added to the shit-pile.
Identity Crisis is where it all went wrong
DC got infiltrated by nostalgic old men who threw away all progress they made post-crises and made it the soup of pointless continuity it is now. Its honestly shocking as a modern reader going back to post crises and seeing all the effort for better or worse that went into it. New52 was successful but frick me did it irreparably damage the entire metatextual environent, all the classic and/or new versions exist, so the 80s-90s legacies are pointless, so they try to do something new with them, and end up torching their still-loyal fanbase.
Wally? Ruined
Kyle? Forgotten
Tim? Stripped of their history, then upon regaining it, made gay for hollow media outrage
What do you mean?
Is wild that a webtoon written for the Tumblr crowd still has the current best take of the Batfamily
Because the tumblr crowd actually likes the batfamily’s pre 52 history and relationship dynamics, and do their best to use the original ideas. Obviously not as perfect as possible, but unironically more accurate then modern dc
>likes the batfamily’s pre 52 history
Kek. They don't know what pre- 52 is and neither do you. It's just an americain family sitcom with Batfam filling the usual archetypes of the genre.
>unironically more accurate then modern dc
Modern DC is shit but this isn't mor faithfull or whatever. It's a different direction were every characters are equal, unlike comics.
Identity Crisis killed his dad
War Games killed Steph
Infinite Crisis killed Superboy
Damian becoming canon left him jobless
New 52 fricked things up further
Turned gay in a desperate ploy for relevancy
*bi
I garuntee if he was gay and got split open by Bane and Killer Croc every night he'd have a fanbase
>*bi
You say that like anyone cares. He's the gay Robin like how Jon is the gay Superman.
You see the problem with Tim's downfall is that it all started when Jason Todd came back. Damian was the nail to the coffin but Jason fricking Todd was the beginning of the end of Tim Drake.
Jason coming back makes Tim's story of becoming Robin pointless, he was supposed to be the successor to the failure of Jason's Robin. But with Jason coming back? Whoops, all that guilt that Bruce had, and Tim's pressure to live up, and surpass Jason is all gone. It displaced Tim's role in the Batfamily, but he still has a role in competing with Jason to prove that he's better than Jason as a Robin. But then Damian happened, and we all know that story. Damian being added to the cast displaced Tim's role even more, with Jason being there, and a new Robin in the role. Tim's role and place was basically frick all.
Frick Jason and Damian, they're the reason why Tim Drake is in a hot mess right now. Should have at least kept one of them dead, or both.
Jason had nothing to do with it, because under a writer that isn't moronic he would want nothing to do with being Bruce's heroic sidekick again, meaning Tim's role is strengthened, not weakened, by committing himself to being the hero that Jason failed to be. You can have constant back and forth between the two where Tim tries to uphold the ideals that a revived Jason thinks are pointless.
Damian wouldn't be a problem IF he wasn't a Robin, because you could have the same thing where Damian is constantly wanting to be more pragmatic and merciless toward criminals while again Tim is the one upholding the ideals. In that circumstance, Damian and Jason make each other redundant.
Really the problem is just lazy crap writers who don't want to take the extremely small amount of effort to make all the character relationships work.
Damian isn't even that much of a problem since you could have played him off Tim.
>You see the problem with Tim's downfall is that it all started when Jason Todd came back.
>Frick Jason and Damian, they're the reason why Tim Drake is in a hot mess right now
No, what ruined Tim was that they took away his family and social life that defined him. He had what Bruce, Dick, Jason and Damian didn't.
This guy gets it. Why do so many tards blame Jason and Damian? The problem was killing Jack and putting Dana on a bus.
They killed her during Infinite Crisis.
Hindsight is 20/20, we can look back at it now and see why Tim would be made irrelevant after Damian came on, as Bruce having a biological son ripped away any chance of him being Robin and a future Batman and him staying more normal like he was in the 90s probably would've helped him weather Damian's introduction.
But the time of DC breaking Tim down by killing his parents, Steph, and Kon, they were pushing him to hell and back. If anything at the time DICK was considered the irrelevant Robin by fans because it seemed like DC stopped caring about him. His book was even more miserable than Tim's, he had given up Titans due to Donna's death, he was awful in Outsiders (even if they did advertise/push that book), and he was now without the idea of being considered Batman's successor (because they were pushing Tim as that). Then Didio wanted to kill off the character and basically pawn his shit off to Tim and Jason didn't help (Titans and being THE future Batman for Tim, Outsiders/Nightwing mantle to Jason).
Morrison quite literally saved Dick narratively, meta-wise, and in the eyes of fans by making him Batman.
>they're the reason why Tim Drake is in a hot mess right now
wtf I love Jason and Damian now
He had every bit of uniqueness stripped away from him, from him being the only Robin to have present parents to his work as a detective until there was literally nothing left for him so they bandaided it by making him bi.
damian is cooler and has a more interesting dynamic with the team than tim ever did and i could not care less if tim was erased from existence.
>dynamic with the team
lol
no one forced you to come into this thread and tell embarrassing lies to cope with your shit taste.