It shat all over Al Pratt and Johnny Thunder's characters for no good reason. Also tries to make Carter Hall too much like Ozymandias in his obsession with his prior life as Khufu, similar to Veidt making himself like Alexander the Great.
I like the end result of what happens to Robotman losing his humanity and going crazy, but so much of it felt like it was just trying to be a big spectacle like the end of Watchmen.
>well, it's not like Al and Johnny had a lot of personality traits
Oh, go frick yourself. You could have said that about a ton of other generic Golden Agers, but Al Pratt--and ESPECIALLY Johnny Thunder--were never just your "run-of-the-mill superhero personalities."
Johnny's simple, but he's not exactly stupid. He views the world in an uncomplicated way, but he's got a sharp wit. Using Al's insecurity to turn him into "le American Nazi boy" is absolutely moronic, and shits all over his character. It shits all over both of their characters for cheap drama.
How about we don't arbitrarily shoehorn in "traitors" as enemies, given that it doesn't make sense for any of the JSAers to turn tail within the context of this narrative.
Having Robotman heel-turn over the loss of his humanity makes sense, though it wasn't handled expertly. Hell, the Spider was turned into a villain by Robinson in his Starman run; he wouldn't have been a bad heel-turn, either.
>How about we don't arbitrarily shoehorn in "traitors" as enemies
Part of the book is specifically about McCarthy era where people turned on friends because they weren’t blindly patriotic and denounced them as traitors because they happened to feel differently about how the country should be run. Stop being butthurt that Robinson did an equivalent of it here where few are bamboozeled into becoming government stooges by Hitler.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Yeah, but Johnny didn't even affect the plot in the slightest. Your point would make sense if Johnny actually did something.
2 years ago
Anonymous
It showcased how McCarthyism, and even how right wing extremism appeals to disenfranchised young men (please remember that Al Pratt and Johnny Thunder were the youngest of the JSA)
>Using Al's insecurity to turn him into "le American Nazi boy"
As soon as Albert realised this, he attacked Dynaman. I get that him pledging himself to the government and whatnot is extreme but having read All Star Squadron, you really get a sense of how patriotic, and quick tempered Al was. Coupled with Robinson's work in Stars and Atoms, Al was adequately used in his role - had the story spent more time with its ensemble cast, we might have seen this outlined a little better. Plus it's an Elseworlds too, even if it's a essentially a facsimile of regular continuity
I still don't buy it. It wasn't even good trickery; the whole thing just feels like an excuse for drama. Johnny acted OoC, too, especially where he's written to declare >"Say you"
in a super bad-ass fashion to show off. Just didn't feel like Johnny Thunder at all, and I've been reading a good bit of his stories from the Golden Age.
I agree in regards to Johnny Thunder, Robinson often writes in a very cynical voice, and where I think he provided some (minimal) rationale to Al's actions in the story, he was pretty haphazard in the handling of Johnny Thunder
Was there even such a thing as ongoing characterization in superheroic serials of the golden age? This was the time when Captain America switched shields because Kirby forgot the original's shape or something similar, there wasn't a lot to expect overall in terms of consistency.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>Was there even such a thing as ongoing characterization in superheroic serials of the golden age?
...Yes. Johnny Thunder, like I earlier mentioned, was not written as a "generic hero guy" like other Golden Agers were. He was an oblivious klutz, but he wasn't at all an idiot.
We’re the villains anon, we have a beautiful constitution but we destroyed any integrity we had through the infiltration of our schools and public institutions by saboteurs that are us alive from the inside. What we are now is a literal shell of a country destroying the western world out of an apparent glee for destruction.
I empathise but it really did make sense when you consider that they were the runts of the JSA. Also, I'm assuming Pratt became a physics professor in the end right?
I loved Hawkman in the book. I wish we saw more - in fact I think the book in us entirety didn't spend enough time with the spotlight characters to br honest
>I empathise but it really did make sense when you consider that they were the runts of the JSA.
No. That doesn't make it make sense. The drama was cheap and shoehorned. You're phrasing implies it was inevitable, and needed to happen.
It shat all over Al Pratt and Johnny Thunder's characters for no good reason. Also tries to make Carter Hall too much like Ozymandias in his obsession with his prior life as Khufu, similar to Veidt making himself like Alexander the Great.
I like the end result of what happens to Robotman losing his humanity and going crazy, but so much of it felt like it was just trying to be a big spectacle like the end of Watchmen.
Robinson is, overall, only a decent writer.
>Also tries to make Carter Hall too much like Ozymandias in his obsession with his prior life as Khufu, similar to Veidt making himself like Alexander the Great.
The whole story just feels like bargain-bin Watchmen.
Is this the first time they retconned him as being Cheops? Always thought that was a dumb change; he was supposed to have died an insignificant prince.
Just finished reading the mini because of this thread and why was Johnny thunder in the book? He just seemed like he was there to be shit on by the writer. Nothing he did had any bearing on the plot.
>why was Johnny thunder in the book? He just seemed like he was there to be shit on by the writer. Nothing he did had any bearing on the plot.
Robinson just does that sometimes. He'll have a character he doesn't care about, he shrugs, and then casually shits all over them like it's nothing.
Did it to to Will Payton Starman and Prince Gavyn Starman in one fell swoop; did the same to Medphyl.
Funny, because for as good as Starman is, it showcases many of his flaws, of which I mentioned here [...] >Robinson just does that sometimes. He'll have a character he doesn't care about, he shrugs, and then casually shits all over them like it's nothing. >Did it to to Will Payton Starman and Prince Gavyn Starman in one fell swoop; did the same to Medphyl.
Robinson abuses killing characters as a shock value source.
It's not just that, it's a clear apathy towards the characters. He makes Medphyl, a former fricking Green Lantern who was stranded from his ring or something, into a traitor--over nothing. Most shoehorned dramatic bullshit ever, and just serves to shit all over Medphyl.
Same thing with Will Payton. He, and Prince Gavyn, were clearly just the two Starmen that he didn't give a frick about (seemed to even dislike Will, somewhat), so he just haphazardly slapped them together. What bullshit; I read Will Payton's run right before Jack Knight's, and it really pissed me off to see how much Robinson fricked him over.
I feel like it's a real bad habit with Robinson and a lot of other writers. Robinson kind of got away with it because of his popularity at the time, plus not as many fans online yet, not enough readers at the time that read the Will Payton Starman or Medphyll's appearances (I'm even including Alan Moore's Swamp Thing in this because it was not entirely reprinted at the time in 1999) to raise hell over it.
Compare that to when Cry For Justice happened and people were fricking livid.
Funny, because for as good as Starman is, it showcases many of his flaws, of which I mentioned here
>why was Johnny thunder in the book? He just seemed like he was there to be shit on by the writer. Nothing he did had any bearing on the plot.
Robinson just does that sometimes. He'll have a character he doesn't care about, he shrugs, and then casually shits all over them like it's nothing.
Did it to to Will Payton Starman and Prince Gavyn Starman in one fell swoop; did the same to Medphyl.
>Robinson just does that sometimes. He'll have a character he doesn't care about, he shrugs, and then casually shits all over them like it's nothing. >Did it to to Will Payton Starman and Prince Gavyn Starman in one fell swoop; did the same to Medphyl.
It's not just that, it's a clear apathy towards the characters. He makes Medphyl, a former fricking Green Lantern who was stranded from his ring or something, into a traitor--over nothing. Most shoehorned dramatic bullshit ever, and just serves to shit all over Medphyl.
Same thing with Will Payton. He, and Prince Gavyn, were clearly just the two Starmen that he didn't give a frick about (seemed to even dislike Will, somewhat), so he just haphazardly slapped them together. What bullshit; I read Will Payton's run right before Jack Knight's, and it really pissed me off to see how much Robinson fricked him over.
>Also tries to make Carter Hall too much like Ozymandias in his obsession with his prior life as Khufu, similar to Veidt making himself like Alexander the Great.
It’s not the same thing at all. Ozymandias idolized and was inspired by Alexander. Carter is just in touch with past life and everyone thinks he’s nutty.
From left-to-right: Starman (Ted Knight), Hawkman (Carter Hall), Sandman (Wesley Dodds), Atom (Al Pratt), Flash (Jay Garrick), Hourman (Rex Tyler), and Green Lantern (Alan Scott); they are members of the Justice Society of America.
I'll do the originals first:
Ted Knight was a bit of the Clark Kent archetype. Often depicted on dates with his girlfriend, Doris Lee, he would always pretend to be sickly at the slightest thing whenever his weapon/tool--the Gravity Rod--would vibrate indicating that he was needed as the Starman. As Starman, he would become much more confident; your archetypal action hero of the time.
Golden Age Carter Hall isn't overly complex; he has memories of being an Egyptian prince, but that doesn't come up too often after his initial story--at least, if we're talking about his original stories. He's a playboy with an over-eager girlfriend, Shiera.
Classic Sandman is a quippy mystery-man. His personality isn't overly complex in the Golden Age, but his dialogue is probably the most entertaining part about him--aside from his original costume (pic related)
Al Pratt is short, and bullied by others for that. This makes him insecure, but those insecurities usually didn't tend to come out when he was acting as the Atom in his original stories--so far as I've read, at least. As Al Pratt, though, he has something to prove.
Jay Garrick was a snarky guy who liked fricking with criminals in creative ways with his super-speed. He wasn't against killing killers--like many Golden Age heroes--and was willing to show cruelty to uncooperative thugs in his investigations. He was a bit skeptical at times, as he would come to be characterized as the straight man in his responses to news from his girlfriend, Joan Williams.
I'll do the originals first:
Ted Knight was a bit of the Clark Kent archetype. Often depicted on dates with his girlfriend, Doris Lee, he would always pretend to be sickly at the slightest thing whenever his weapon/tool--the Gravity Rod--would vibrate indicating that he was needed as the Starman. As Starman, he would become much more confident; your archetypal action hero of the time.
Golden Age Carter Hall isn't overly complex; he has memories of being an Egyptian prince, but that doesn't come up too often after his initial story--at least, if we're talking about his original stories. He's a playboy with an over-eager girlfriend, Shiera.
Classic Sandman is a quippy mystery-man. His personality isn't overly complex in the Golden Age, but his dialogue is probably the most entertaining part about him--aside from his original costume (pic related)
Al Pratt is short, and bullied by others for that. This makes him insecure, but those insecurities usually didn't tend to come out when he was acting as the Atom in his original stories--so far as I've read, at least. As Al Pratt, though, he has something to prove.
Jay Garrick was a snarky guy who liked fricking with criminals in creative ways with his super-speed. He wasn't against killing killers--like many Golden Age heroes--and was willing to show cruelty to uncooperative thugs in his investigations. He was a bit skeptical at times, as he would come to be characterized as the straight man in his responses to news from his girlfriend, Joan Williams.
Cont.
Rex Tyler was sort of like Ted Knight; his public persona was meek and cowardly, meanwhile he would become a courageous hero once taking his Miraclo pill and becoming the Hourman.
Alan is rather average in personality, at least amongst Golden Age heroes. He's a working man, so many of his stories start by something with the radio company he works at. He didn't have a female companion to take on cases and bounce off of in cases like Flash, Sandman, or Hawkman, so we don't get to see too much of a range in his personality.
Here's the revised versions of the characters over the years:
Carter Hall has a larger range of reincarnations, and memories from his past lives tend to have a greater role in his stories. He's sometimes a Republican to contrast Green Arrow's liberalism, but sometimes he's characterized as a worldly person because of the retroactive change that he has more reincarnations.
Wesley Dodds is no longer anything resembling simple. With Sandman Mystery Theatre, Wesley was given a more grounded appearance, and personality. He's very much a gentleman with progressive ideals and standards for his time. He feels conflicted the one time he's particularly shown as uncomfortable when finding out that his closest friend is homosexual (pic related), having trouble disassociating it from a memory of an authority figure he trusted in boarding school who accidentally discovered was pedophilic for boys. He is very much an Enlightenment thinker, as best as he is able.
Al Pratt is made a bit more foolish and impatient, and a bit more openly insecure about his height.
Here's the revised versions of the characters over the years:
Carter Hall has a larger range of reincarnations, and memories from his past lives tend to have a greater role in his stories. He's sometimes a Republican to contrast Green Arrow's liberalism, but sometimes he's characterized as a worldly person because of the retroactive change that he has more reincarnations.
Wesley Dodds is no longer anything resembling simple. With Sandman Mystery Theatre, Wesley was given a more grounded appearance, and personality. He's very much a gentleman with progressive ideals and standards for his time. He feels conflicted the one time he's particularly shown as uncomfortable when finding out that his closest friend is homosexual (pic related), having trouble disassociating it from a memory of an authority figure he trusted in boarding school who accidentally discovered was pedophilic for boys. He is very much an Enlightenment thinker, as best as he is able.
Al Pratt is made a bit more foolish and impatient, and a bit more openly insecure about his height.
(Cont.)
Jay Garrick has received the John Byrne Superman treatment, where he's been whitewashed into a harmless nothing of a character in contrast to his previous bite. Modern writers' obsession with putting a no-kill code as retroactively made him against killing, even though he was one of the more ruthless mystery-men in the 40s. I don't hate this interpretation, but it is a little obnoxious to hear adaptations of Jay Garrick give sermons about how killing is bad, when I know how he really was until the modern age.
Rex Tyler has a couple different characterizations in the modern age. One is a bit simpler, where he's basically just an addict. Sandman Mystery Theatre, however, characterized him as a man who is socially awkward--mumbling to himself, practicing what he's about to say to someone--to represent his cowardly side from the Golden Age. From pic related--and his general demeanor in his arc in SMT--he seems to be a bright young man who was bullied as a kid for whatever reason (probably liking science, since he's a chemist), who now thrives on the adrenaline of being a man of action who can swat bullies and oppressors like flies, and being able to actually help others directly. He's living his fantasy from being a nerdy teen boy, basically.
Alan isn't very changed, honestly. They made him gay recently, but I just try to ignore that. He, like Jay, is too important as an icon to do anything actually interesting with in the modern age. He was given an arc where he deals with his son coming out as gay in Infinity, Inc., but that's all I can think of. Maybe someone who knows Alan Scott better can fill in any blanks.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>Jay Garrick has received the John Byrne Superman treatment, where he's been whitewashed into a harmless nothing of a character in contrast to his previous bite. Modern writers' obsession with putting a no-kill code as retroactively made him against killing, even though he was one of the more ruthless mystery-men in the 40s. I don't hate this interpretation, but it is a little obnoxious to hear adaptations of Jay Garrick give sermons about how killing is bad, when I know how he really was until the modern age.
See this is interesting to me because I started reading the old Secret Origins from the 80s and they did change a few things
Like the Case of the Chemical Syndicate in the Golden Age Batman's Secret Origins story
I remembered in the original comic, Batman punched the guy through the railing.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Yeah. Any hero/character becomes iconic enough, any sort of sass or grit that doesn't fit within the narrow standards of what's "acceptable," they get made into a cardboard cutout.
Batman's survived because his grit and slight edge are deemed palatable to audiences. Characters like Jay and Clark get turned into: >le super nice guy, who would never do wrong or say mean thing
2 years ago
Anonymous
Yeah that went differently in the Secret Origins 80s revamp, too
2 years ago
Anonymous
They also like to pretend he was active in Keystone, rather than New York. His first story plainly states he only becomes the Flash after having moved to NYC.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Green Arrow was in NYC at first too, in the Golden Age comics
Doesn't make too much sense, though, because Jay's always been sort of cavalier with showing off his super-speed as his civilian persona. But, the Golden Age isn't exactly known for prioritizing continuity, so it is what it is.
Ah, I expected it to be a splash page, the poor scan (probably from a microfiche) makes it lose too much detail and I wonder if the illustration in the middle was done with a technique other than pen and ink. >Jolaine publications
WHAT?
publications >WHAT?
This is what I got from a google search, from this forum: >https://community.cbr.com/showthread.php?118840-How-DC-used-to-promote-their-comics/page3
>"Major Malcolm Wheeler-Nicholson, who was a pulp writer, started National Allied, with the first comic coming out in January of 1935, called NEW FUN. [...]"
>"National Allied wasn't the only corporation that Wheeler-Nicholson used for his publications. It was common in those days for comics publishers to use several different corporate identities--I'm not sure why, maybe to escape creditors. And the Major had many debts, such that he needed to be bailed out by his creditors, Harry Donenfeld (the printing plant owner) and Jack Liebowitz (the distributor), who put up the money needed to finance a third ongoing title called DETECTIVE COMICS. And that was published by Detective Comics, Inc. Donenfeld and Liebowitz forced out the Major and took over National Allied and were now the publishers of the retitled MORE FUN COMICS and NEW ADVENTURE COMICS."
>"The DC symbol was put on the covers of all the comics they published, even if the indicia inside the comic might have said National Allied or Detective Comics or All-American or something else.* Eventually the company was called National Comics and then National Periodical Publications before finally becoming the redundant DC Comics, Inc. in the late 1970s--redundant because you're saying "Detective Comics Comics." I always find it maddening when people say DC comics--it should just be DC, because the C is the Comics."
>"*Other corporate identities for DC/National include: More Fun Magazine, Inc., Nicholson Publishing Co., Superman, Inc., World's Best Company, Tilsam Publications, Jolaine Publications, J.R. Publishing, Gainlee Publishing, Wonder Woman Publishing."
You know, I think the guy who posted that also posts on Cinemaphile. There's a poster who likes the Golden Age who does that same exact capitalization when referring to titles.
2 years ago
Anonymous
That's the old school style, so you can tell if you're talking about Daredevil the character or DAREDEVIL the comic book. It does avoid confusion.
2 years ago
Anonymous
People used to do that online when there was no way to italicize titles.
It was a better example of what Watchmen should have been. Superheroes dealing with darker subject matter and the horrifying implications of supervillains and superheroes existing. While also still remembering to have fun, and remembering that Superheroes should give people hope.
I really liked it. Perfect length of story for Robinsons writing.
Pretty good story
It needed more rape
Americommando was rough in bed, don't know if that counts as rape; though considering who he really is it probably counts
It shat all over Al Pratt and Johnny Thunder's characters for no good reason. Also tries to make Carter Hall too much like Ozymandias in his obsession with his prior life as Khufu, similar to Veidt making himself like Alexander the Great.
I like the end result of what happens to Robotman losing his humanity and going crazy, but so much of it felt like it was just trying to be a big spectacle like the end of Watchmen.
Robinson is, overall, only a decent writer.
well, it's not like Al and Johnny had a lot of personality traits to begin with, in fact Robinson himself gave Al more depth in Starman
>well, it's not like Al and Johnny had a lot of personality traits
Oh, go frick yourself. You could have said that about a ton of other generic Golden Agers, but Al Pratt--and ESPECIALLY Johnny Thunder--were never just your "run-of-the-mill superhero personalities."
Johnny's simple, but he's not exactly stupid. He views the world in an uncomplicated way, but he's got a sharp wit. Using Al's insecurity to turn him into "le American Nazi boy" is absolutely moronic, and shits all over his character. It shits all over both of their characters for cheap drama.
Alright bucko who would you pick instead of those two for the enemy team?
How about we don't arbitrarily shoehorn in "traitors" as enemies, given that it doesn't make sense for any of the JSAers to turn tail within the context of this narrative.
Having Robotman heel-turn over the loss of his humanity makes sense, though it wasn't handled expertly. Hell, the Spider was turned into a villain by Robinson in his Starman run; he wouldn't have been a bad heel-turn, either.
>How about we don't arbitrarily shoehorn in "traitors" as enemies
Part of the book is specifically about McCarthy era where people turned on friends because they weren’t blindly patriotic and denounced them as traitors because they happened to feel differently about how the country should be run. Stop being butthurt that Robinson did an equivalent of it here where few are bamboozeled into becoming government stooges by Hitler.
Yeah, but Johnny didn't even affect the plot in the slightest. Your point would make sense if Johnny actually did something.
It showcased how McCarthyism, and even how right wing extremism appeals to disenfranchised young men (please remember that Al Pratt and Johnny Thunder were the youngest of the JSA)
>Using Al's insecurity to turn him into "le American Nazi boy"
As soon as Albert realised this, he attacked Dynaman. I get that him pledging himself to the government and whatnot is extreme but having read All Star Squadron, you really get a sense of how patriotic, and quick tempered Al was. Coupled with Robinson's work in Stars and Atoms, Al was adequately used in his role - had the story spent more time with its ensemble cast, we might have seen this outlined a little better. Plus it's an Elseworlds too, even if it's a essentially a facsimile of regular continuity
I still don't buy it. It wasn't even good trickery; the whole thing just feels like an excuse for drama. Johnny acted OoC, too, especially where he's written to declare
>"Say you"
in a super bad-ass fashion to show off. Just didn't feel like Johnny Thunder at all, and I've been reading a good bit of his stories from the Golden Age.
I agree in regards to Johnny Thunder, Robinson often writes in a very cynical voice, and where I think he provided some (minimal) rationale to Al's actions in the story, he was pretty haphazard in the handling of Johnny Thunder
Was there even such a thing as ongoing characterization in superheroic serials of the golden age? This was the time when Captain America switched shields because Kirby forgot the original's shape or something similar, there wasn't a lot to expect overall in terms of consistency.
>Was there even such a thing as ongoing characterization in superheroic serials of the golden age?
...Yes. Johnny Thunder, like I earlier mentioned, was not written as a "generic hero guy" like other Golden Agers were. He was an oblivious klutz, but he wasn't at all an idiot.
Nazi bashing used to be pretty fun before libtards ruined it
Nazi bashing used to be fun before modern America proved that the bad guys won World War II
Imagine looking history though the lens of
>"le bad guys vs le good guys"
How idiotic.
We’re the villains anon, we have a beautiful constitution but we destroyed any integrity we had through the infiltration of our schools and public institutions by saboteurs that are us alive from the inside. What we are now is a literal shell of a country destroying the western world out of an apparent glee for destruction.
>We’re the villains anon
No. Stop acting like a child.
>I'm pretty sure Khufu built the pyramids, no?
Not Pre-Crisis, he didn't. At least, not so far as I've read.
He's always been a friendo
He's always been a Prince, friendo
It's funny how reading Hawkman stories, Khufu and Chay-Ara just become blacker and blacker the closer it gets to modern day.
Apparently comic artists bought well into the
>"WE WUZ KANGZ N SHIEEEEEEEET"
narrative that persists to this day.
Can't lie, I didn't expect 'em to be white first time I actually read Golden Age Hawkman
I'm not even complaining that they're not white anymore; it's just that turning them black is not any more accurate than having them be white.
>A bunch of rando idiots on invite-only Afronationlist blogs and obvious trolls
>narrative
People--idiots--genuinely believe it. And people DO draw the Egyptians like more and more like black people as times goes on.
So, yeah, it's a narrative being followed, no matter how disingenuous the argument originally was/is.
Tragically, the far right ARE today's Nazis, so we need to bash them,
kek n check'd
I empathise but it really did make sense when you consider that they were the runts of the JSA. Also, I'm assuming Pratt became a physics professor in the end right?
I loved Hawkman in the book. I wish we saw more - in fact I think the book in us entirety didn't spend enough time with the spotlight characters to br honest
>I empathise but it really did make sense when you consider that they were the runts of the JSA.
No. That doesn't make it make sense. The drama was cheap and shoehorned. You're phrasing implies it was inevitable, and needed to happen.
I like how he went full "WE WUZ KANGS" tier larping when he turned that floor of the hotel into a mini egypt room
That's the part I mean when I said
>Also tries to make Carter Hall too much like Ozymandias in his obsession with his prior life as Khufu, similar to Veidt making himself like Alexander the Great.
The whole story just feels like bargain-bin Watchmen.
>The whole story just feels like bargain-bin Watchmen.
I remember when the book was being hyped up that it was getting compared by DC (or maybe it was magazines doing it) to Watchmen.
Is this the first time they retconned him as being Cheops? Always thought that was a dumb change; he was supposed to have died an insignificant prince.
I'm pretty sure Khufu built the pyramids, no? Anyways the retcin happened in the Post Crisis Who's Who Directory I think
Just finished reading the mini because of this thread and why was Johnny thunder in the book? He just seemed like he was there to be shit on by the writer. Nothing he did had any bearing on the plot.
>why was Johnny thunder in the book? He just seemed like he was there to be shit on by the writer. Nothing he did had any bearing on the plot.
Robinson just does that sometimes. He'll have a character he doesn't care about, he shrugs, and then casually shits all over them like it's nothing.
Did it to to Will Payton Starman and Prince Gavyn Starman in one fell swoop; did the same to Medphyl.
I feel like it's a real bad habit with Robinson and a lot of other writers. Robinson kind of got away with it because of his popularity at the time, plus not as many fans online yet, not enough readers at the time that read the Will Payton Starman or Medphyll's appearances (I'm even including Alan Moore's Swamp Thing in this because it was not entirely reprinted at the time in 1999) to raise hell over it.
Compare that to when Cry For Justice happened and people were fricking livid.
>Robinson is, overall, only a decent writer.
Starman carried his rep for so long, too.
Funny, because for as good as Starman is, it showcases many of his flaws, of which I mentioned here
>Robinson just does that sometimes. He'll have a character he doesn't care about, he shrugs, and then casually shits all over them like it's nothing.
>Did it to to Will Payton Starman and Prince Gavyn Starman in one fell swoop; did the same to Medphyl.
Robinson abuses killing characters as a shock value source.
It's not just that, it's a clear apathy towards the characters. He makes Medphyl, a former fricking Green Lantern who was stranded from his ring or something, into a traitor--over nothing. Most shoehorned dramatic bullshit ever, and just serves to shit all over Medphyl.
Same thing with Will Payton. He, and Prince Gavyn, were clearly just the two Starmen that he didn't give a frick about (seemed to even dislike Will, somewhat), so he just haphazardly slapped them together. What bullshit; I read Will Payton's run right before Jack Knight's, and it really pissed me off to see how much Robinson fricked him over.
>Also tries to make Carter Hall too much like Ozymandias in his obsession with his prior life as Khufu, similar to Veidt making himself like Alexander the Great.
It’s not the same thing at all. Ozymandias idolized and was inspired by Alexander. Carter is just in touch with past life and everyone thinks he’s nutty.
I was just reading it the other day and found the twist to be really dumb but it was a good comic over all liked what they did with Hawkman
The whole thing just felt like a shitty attempt at recreating Watchmen for DC's Golden Age to me.
Elaborate?
Name all of these characters?
In the OP?
From left-to-right: Starman (Ted Knight), Hawkman (Carter Hall), Sandman (Wesley Dodds), Atom (Al Pratt), Flash (Jay Garrick), Hourman (Rex Tyler), and Green Lantern (Alan Scott); they are members of the Justice Society of America.
Now state their personalities
Their original personalities? Or the ones they've developed over the years?
Both, to be honest I just like hearing people talk about them haha
I'll do the originals first:
Ted Knight was a bit of the Clark Kent archetype. Often depicted on dates with his girlfriend, Doris Lee, he would always pretend to be sickly at the slightest thing whenever his weapon/tool--the Gravity Rod--would vibrate indicating that he was needed as the Starman. As Starman, he would become much more confident; your archetypal action hero of the time.
Golden Age Carter Hall isn't overly complex; he has memories of being an Egyptian prince, but that doesn't come up too often after his initial story--at least, if we're talking about his original stories. He's a playboy with an over-eager girlfriend, Shiera.
Classic Sandman is a quippy mystery-man. His personality isn't overly complex in the Golden Age, but his dialogue is probably the most entertaining part about him--aside from his original costume (pic related)
Al Pratt is short, and bullied by others for that. This makes him insecure, but those insecurities usually didn't tend to come out when he was acting as the Atom in his original stories--so far as I've read, at least. As Al Pratt, though, he has something to prove.
Jay Garrick was a snarky guy who liked fricking with criminals in creative ways with his super-speed. He wasn't against killing killers--like many Golden Age heroes--and was willing to show cruelty to uncooperative thugs in his investigations. He was a bit skeptical at times, as he would come to be characterized as the straight man in his responses to news from his girlfriend, Joan Williams.
Cont.
Rex Tyler was sort of like Ted Knight; his public persona was meek and cowardly, meanwhile he would become a courageous hero once taking his Miraclo pill and becoming the Hourman.
Alan is rather average in personality, at least amongst Golden Age heroes. He's a working man, so many of his stories start by something with the radio company he works at. He didn't have a female companion to take on cases and bounce off of in cases like Flash, Sandman, or Hawkman, so we don't get to see too much of a range in his personality.
Here's the revised versions of the characters over the years:
Carter Hall has a larger range of reincarnations, and memories from his past lives tend to have a greater role in his stories. He's sometimes a Republican to contrast Green Arrow's liberalism, but sometimes he's characterized as a worldly person because of the retroactive change that he has more reincarnations.
Wesley Dodds is no longer anything resembling simple. With Sandman Mystery Theatre, Wesley was given a more grounded appearance, and personality. He's very much a gentleman with progressive ideals and standards for his time. He feels conflicted the one time he's particularly shown as uncomfortable when finding out that his closest friend is homosexual (pic related), having trouble disassociating it from a memory of an authority figure he trusted in boarding school who accidentally discovered was pedophilic for boys. He is very much an Enlightenment thinker, as best as he is able.
Al Pratt is made a bit more foolish and impatient, and a bit more openly insecure about his height.
(Cont.)
Jay Garrick has received the John Byrne Superman treatment, where he's been whitewashed into a harmless nothing of a character in contrast to his previous bite. Modern writers' obsession with putting a no-kill code as retroactively made him against killing, even though he was one of the more ruthless mystery-men in the 40s. I don't hate this interpretation, but it is a little obnoxious to hear adaptations of Jay Garrick give sermons about how killing is bad, when I know how he really was until the modern age.
Rex Tyler has a couple different characterizations in the modern age. One is a bit simpler, where he's basically just an addict. Sandman Mystery Theatre, however, characterized him as a man who is socially awkward--mumbling to himself, practicing what he's about to say to someone--to represent his cowardly side from the Golden Age. From pic related--and his general demeanor in his arc in SMT--he seems to be a bright young man who was bullied as a kid for whatever reason (probably liking science, since he's a chemist), who now thrives on the adrenaline of being a man of action who can swat bullies and oppressors like flies, and being able to actually help others directly. He's living his fantasy from being a nerdy teen boy, basically.
Alan isn't very changed, honestly. They made him gay recently, but I just try to ignore that. He, like Jay, is too important as an icon to do anything actually interesting with in the modern age. He was given an arc where he deals with his son coming out as gay in Infinity, Inc., but that's all I can think of. Maybe someone who knows Alan Scott better can fill in any blanks.
>Jay Garrick has received the John Byrne Superman treatment, where he's been whitewashed into a harmless nothing of a character in contrast to his previous bite. Modern writers' obsession with putting a no-kill code as retroactively made him against killing, even though he was one of the more ruthless mystery-men in the 40s. I don't hate this interpretation, but it is a little obnoxious to hear adaptations of Jay Garrick give sermons about how killing is bad, when I know how he really was until the modern age.
See this is interesting to me because I started reading the old Secret Origins from the 80s and they did change a few things
Like the Case of the Chemical Syndicate in the Golden Age Batman's Secret Origins story
I remembered in the original comic, Batman punched the guy through the railing.
Yeah. Any hero/character becomes iconic enough, any sort of sass or grit that doesn't fit within the narrow standards of what's "acceptable," they get made into a cardboard cutout.
Batman's survived because his grit and slight edge are deemed palatable to audiences. Characters like Jay and Clark get turned into:
>le super nice guy, who would never do wrong or say mean thing
Yeah that went differently in the Secret Origins 80s revamp, too
They also like to pretend he was active in Keystone, rather than New York. His first story plainly states he only becomes the Flash after having moved to NYC.
Green Arrow was in NYC at first too, in the Golden Age comics
What's the context for this?
This is the whole page, with the description.
Doesn't make too much sense, though, because Jay's always been sort of cavalier with showing off his super-speed as his civilian persona. But, the Golden Age isn't exactly known for prioritizing continuity, so it is what it is.
Ah, I expected it to be a splash page, the poor scan (probably from a microfiche) makes it lose too much detail and I wonder if the illustration in the middle was done with a technique other than pen and ink.
>Jolaine publications
WHAT?
publications
>WHAT?
This is what I got from a google search, from this forum:
>https://community.cbr.com/showthread.php?118840-How-DC-used-to-promote-their-comics/page3
>"Major Malcolm Wheeler-Nicholson, who was a pulp writer, started National Allied, with the first comic coming out in January of 1935, called NEW FUN. [...]"
>"National Allied wasn't the only corporation that Wheeler-Nicholson used for his publications. It was common in those days for comics publishers to use several different corporate identities--I'm not sure why, maybe to escape creditors. And the Major had many debts, such that he needed to be bailed out by his creditors, Harry Donenfeld (the printing plant owner) and Jack Liebowitz (the distributor), who put up the money needed to finance a third ongoing title called DETECTIVE COMICS. And that was published by Detective Comics, Inc. Donenfeld and Liebowitz forced out the Major and took over National Allied and were now the publishers of the retitled MORE FUN COMICS and NEW ADVENTURE COMICS."
>"The DC symbol was put on the covers of all the comics they published, even if the indicia inside the comic might have said National Allied or Detective Comics or All-American or something else.* Eventually the company was called National Comics and then National Periodical Publications before finally becoming the redundant DC Comics, Inc. in the late 1970s--redundant because you're saying "Detective Comics Comics." I always find it maddening when people say DC comics--it should just be DC, because the C is the Comics."
>"*Other corporate identities for DC/National include: More Fun Magazine, Inc., Nicholson Publishing Co., Superman, Inc., World's Best Company, Tilsam Publications, Jolaine Publications, J.R. Publishing, Gainlee Publishing, Wonder Woman Publishing."
You know, I think the guy who posted that also posts on Cinemaphile. There's a poster who likes the Golden Age who does that same exact capitalization when referring to titles.
That's the old school style, so you can tell if you're talking about Daredevil the character or DAREDEVIL the comic book. It does avoid confusion.
People used to do that online when there was no way to italicize titles.
It was a better example of what Watchmen should have been. Superheroes dealing with darker subject matter and the horrifying implications of supervillains and superheroes existing. While also still remembering to have fun, and remembering that Superheroes should give people hope.
>It was a better example of what Watchmen should have been.
I think Watchmen was exactly what it was meant to be.
The Golden Age could've done a bit better if its writers weren't so clearly trying to ape Watchmen.
>It was a better example of what Watchmen should have been.
You're dumb.
Funnily enough Alan Moore did talk back in the day of doing a Minutemen Watchmen spin off.
How did we feel about the book's treatment of Green Lantern 'big guy' Alan Scott?
Poor Little Blue Boy
Am, i the only one who hated how much build up the "cosmic" rod had. Just to be broken instantly, just to subvert your expectations.
Yeah, that was pretty stupid. Ted has the whole emotional suicide-attempt scene, and he gets no real payoff for it.
I like Alen Scott, corrects bad women with his dick and doesnt afraid of anything